Originally posted by shiner421 ....as the crowd that favors PVP above all else usually kill their own games. That is my opinion.
I still maintain that the rise in popularity of the MOBA has had a detrimental effect on MMORPGs.
Amen to this. MOBA games are concentrated, no context, PvP arenas with communities that make MMORPG.com look like charm school.
Developers looked at market population for MOBAs and decided that MMORPG Players could be sacrificed on the idea of attempting to lure MOBA players over. This is like deciding that Gasoline would be better for your Diesel Engine because more people use gasoline.
Just because MOBA's are not your cup of tea , just because you had a bad experience in some MOBA and found the community nasty doesn't mean certain features won't carry over.
Firstly, EQnext is going to be action combat.
Secondly this means that players will be able to "combo" off one another in combat.
What does this mean you ask?
instead of Min/Max MMO's of the past , where a Rogue, or Mage, got the best gear, then proceeded to go around 1 shotting everything that moved, without the need for support (he basically just went around soloing everything.), we will have more team based MMORPG's in which you do rely more on your team mates in combat.
This will improve the social aspects of MMO's, as this has stagnated over the past years, because people could just log in and do a bunch of stuff without having to put in effort with their team mates. This will also eliminate the min/maxing crowd which have social issues, and bring that negative attitude into games, because people like this will be at a disadvantage in a 2v1 situation where the 2 people are playing in tandem and combo'ing off one another.
This doesn't mean that you "need" your teammates, it just means that they are a wonderful bonus, and if you try and 'work' with them, the results are fruitful.
This is the reason EQnext, can and will be a PvP MMORPG that succeeds in creating a wonderful world where PvP flourishes, because any player that tries to bring/or play with that solo I do everything attitude will be at a huge disadvantage.
Why?
Because we've moved away from tab target. That system is done with and was being abused through its weaknesses
I don't think arena PvP is bad, just the opposite I think it's good and I don't blame it for PvP's failure.
The real failure point is open world PvP. I come at this from a converted perspective. I love PvP like they had in GW1, it was deep and wonderful. So I thought Darkfall was for me. The truth in open world PvP is that 9 out of 10 of the fights are not competitive. Large guilds dominate with zerg and hacking is rampant. WoW's no better, DAoC, WAR or any of them to me have the same flaw.
I don't get any joy out of attacking someone 6x1 and killing them, it's not fun. That's what the majority of open world PvP is, in every game and every form of open world PvP. I don't get any joy out of jumping someone 1x1 when they're not expecting it and killing them.
I want a fair fight, or I won't enjoy it.
I think my opinion is why most PvP players themselves don't like open world PvP. Most are looking for fair fights, but want larger fights, and fights that are for something important. I don't think there's any pvp games like that except through MOBA's.
All that said I'd be much happier if there was NO PVP in EQN. I think there will be some, but I hope that there is not.
Originally posted by Xiaoki I do have to wonder why people would think an Everquest game would be PvP centric in the first place.
What, just because it's a "sandbox" now? Did you play on one of the PvP servers back in "the day".
EQ has always been a PvE centric franchise.
And why would SOE take the risk of making it PvP when very few PvP centric MMOs have found success?
So why do people think that EQ is going to suddenly turn PvP
Yeap.. EQ was a PvE centric franchise.. as it was a themepark... and it was rather linear with a deep vertical progression.
Now it is(EQN) going to be a sandbox.. it will be with more horizontal progressen instead of vertical progression.. it will be a lot more in succession of games like UO and/or SWG.. and therefore we ask the pvp question. Because those games were more pvp centric, instead of pve centric. I think it is a valid question.
However.. i doubt it will be hardcore pvp.. or hardcore in any way for that matter. But a SWGish pvp system or anything along that line could be very well be the case. We will see.
I don't think arena PvP is bad, just the opposite I think it's good and I don't blame it for PvP's failure.
The real failure point is open world PvP. I come at this from a converted perspective. I love PvP like they had in GW1, it was deep and wonderful. So I thought Darkfall was for me. The truth in open world PvP is that 9 out of 10 of the fights are not competitive. Large guilds dominate with zerg and hacking is rampant. WoW's no better, DAoC, WAR or any of them to me have the same flaw.
I don't get any joy out of attacking someone 6x1 and killing them, it's not fun. That's what the majority of open world PvP is, in every game and every form of open world PvP. I don't get any joy out of jumping someone 1x1 when they're not expecting it and killing them.
I want a fair fight, or I won't enjoy it.
I think my opinion is why most PvP players themselves don't like open world PvP. Most are looking for fair fights, but want larger fights, and fights that are for something important. I don't think there's any pvp games like that except through MOBA's.
All that said I'd be much happier if there was NO PVP in EQN. I think there will be some, but I hope that there is not.
it's sad you didn't try out Guild wars 2. when the GvG started in guild wars 2. it didn't matter how many pugs you bring. 25-30 guys can wipe 100. its all about throwing right fields at right time. I have seen videos when a guild going deep and killing 60+ in first bomb.
pugs and blobs are not co ordinated and if you got a action combat system you don't need number. you need co ordinated bombs. that is guild wars 2. that is why guild wars 2 attracted so many Guilds PvP hardcore guilds. because they had found a game with team work a big focus.
the next game out there. even if its a pve game with WvW. But the next game out there that bring both big PvE BUT A good que system with no lag, good combat system like guild wars 2 when you cant survive alone and need a good crew. with throwing right fields.
that game will beat any other game.
guild wars 2 died fast because guilds and players couldn't get in the game they were stuck in QUE. when PvE events started in WvW you had like 100000 peoples waiting in que.
desolation with HIGH population PvE players and low+ WvW population you suddently had 30,000 players waiting for WvW while the WvW can only host 500 players total.
fail huh? so yh the next game with a good corporation that understand consequences that bring interesting PvE but also open WvW with Guild arenas that push for GvG and pretty much everything in pve/WvW. then you will have an awesome game that will survive being top 1 for 5+ years atleast.
EQ is pve they might have figured out a good combat system to get good team work running, then they might be able to figure out some good WvW too. if not they should hire someone good get some advisors from some TOP PvP guilds out there. VoTF red guard peoples that got experience running top DAOC style.
This seems like a great game for splitting servers, a la PvP and PvE.
PvE server would have no PvP in the world.
PvP server would have PvP in the sense that if I was helping out some dwarven faction and somebody else was helping out some elven faction and the two factions were competing with each other we would be able to fight each other in the contested land(s). Seems pretty simple to me and would fit into the AI/world changing system they have in place.
If there is no world pvp, I will not even consider trying it. We'll see.
Originally posted by Pepeq If you can turn PVP off and on, you have no real PVP. Any game that does this, is not a PVP game.
Yup. Another carebear PvEfest MMO. Just what we need. I'll pass.
Great, move along there is nothing to see here then. Plenty of pvp focused games to play with lots of noobs awaiting ganking... Gogogo they don't grief themselves.
And the usual correction that apparantly is needed in every eqnext thread.. Original eq was not themepark, neither was it sandbox, it was open world. Second, sandbox does not require pvp, and it is possible that eqnext could be sandbox... Or it could be just a themepark disguised as sandbox, at this point we do not know.
This seems like a great game for splitting servers, a la PvP and PvE.
PvE server would have no PvP in the world.
PvP server would have PvP in the sense that if I was helping out some dwarven faction and somebody else was helping out some elven faction and the two factions were competing with each other we would be able to fight each other in the contested land(s). Seems pretty simple to me and would fit into the AI/world changing system they have in place.
If there is no world pvp, I will not even consider trying it. We'll see.
Got to agree with this tbh, PvP is a fundamental aspect of any mmo for me. If there isn't a big pvp element, I will just go play the witcher.
I don't think arena PvP is bad, just the opposite I think it's good and I don't blame it for PvP's failure.
The real failure point is open world PvP. I come at this from a converted perspective. I love PvP like they had in GW1, it was deep and wonderful. So I thought Darkfall was for me. The truth in open world PvP is that 9 out of 10 of the fights are not competitive. Large guilds dominate with zerg and hacking is rampant. WoW's no better, DAoC, WAR or any of them to me have the same flaw.
I don't get any joy out of attacking someone 6x1 and killing them, it's not fun. That's what the majority of open world PvP is, in every game and every form of open world PvP. I don't get any joy out of jumping someone 1x1 when they're not expecting it and killing them.
I want a fair fight, or I won't enjoy it.
I think my opinion is why most PvP players themselves don't like open world PvP. Most are looking for fair fights, but want larger fights, and fights that are for something important. I don't think there's any pvp games like that except through MOBA's.
All that said I'd be much happier if there was NO PVP in EQN. I think there will be some, but I hope that there is not.
it's sad you didn't try out Guild wars 2. when the GvG started in guild wars 2. it didn't matter how many pugs you bring. 25-30 guys can wipe 100. its all about throwing right fields at right time. I have seen videos when a guild going deep and killing 60+ in first bomb.
pugs and blobs are not co ordinated and if you got a action combat system you don't need number. you need co ordinated bombs. that is guild wars 2. that is why guild wars 2 attracted so many Guilds PvP hardcore guilds. because they had found a game with team work a big focus.
the next game out there. even if its a pve game with WvW. But the next game out there that bring both big PvE BUT A good que system with no lag, good combat system like guild wars 2 when you cant survive alone and need a good crew. with throwing right fields.
that game will beat any other game.
guild wars 2 died fast because guilds and players couldn't get in the game they were stuck in QUE. when PvE events started in WvW you had like 100000 peoples waiting in que.
desolation with HIGH population PvE players and low+ WvW population you suddently had 30,000 players waiting for WvW while the WvW can only host 500 players total.
fail huh? so yh the next game with a good corporation that understand consequences that bring interesting PvE but also open WvW with Guild arenas that push for GvG and pretty much everything in pve/WvW. then you will have an awesome game that will survive being top 1 for 5+ years atleast.
EQ is pve they might have figured out a good combat system to get good team work running, then they might be able to figure out some good WvW too. if not they should hire someone good get some advisors from some TOP PvP guilds out there. VoTF red guard peoples that got experience running top DAOC style.
Just wanted to say, I hate GW2. PvP where your gear and level doesn't matter makes all the PvE in the game pointless. Go play a Moba.
Also several things add depth to the building process and thus the game play. These include optimising your build, optimising your gear for that build so that there isn't just 1 best gear set or 1 set for build but rather you pick gear based around your build so there are no set types and professions etc.
If you take away all these things, you not only take away a lot of game depth, you make the work of people who play any PvE pointless. If that's the case, just play a Moba.
I don't think arena PvP is bad, just the opposite I think it's good and I don't blame it for PvP's failure.
The real failure point is open world PvP. I come at this from a converted perspective. I love PvP like they had in GW1, it was deep and wonderful. So I thought Darkfall was for me. The truth in open world PvP is that 9 out of 10 of the fights are not competitive. Large guilds dominate with zerg and hacking is rampant. WoW's no better, DAoC, WAR or any of them to me have the same flaw.
I don't get any joy out of attacking someone 6x1 and killing them, it's not fun. That's what the majority of open world PvP is, in every game and every form of open world PvP. I don't get any joy out of jumping someone 1x1 when they're not expecting it and killing them.
I want a fair fight, or I won't enjoy it.
I think my opinion is why most PvP players themselves don't like open world PvP. Most are looking for fair fights, but want larger fights, and fights that are for something important. I don't think there's any pvp games like that except through MOBA's.
All that said I'd be much happier if there was NO PVP in EQN. I think there will be some, but I hope that there is not.
it's sad you didn't try out Guild wars 2. when the GvG started in guild wars 2. it didn't matter how many pugs you bring. 25-30 guys can wipe 100. its all about throwing right fields at right time. I have seen videos when a guild going deep and killing 60+ in first bomb.
pugs and blobs are not co ordinated and if you got a action combat system you don't need number. you need co ordinated bombs. that is guild wars 2. that is why guild wars 2 attracted so many Guilds PvP hardcore guilds. because they had found a game with team work a big focus.
the next game out there. even if its a pve game with WvW. But the next game out there that bring both big PvE BUT A good que system with no lag, good combat system like guild wars 2 when you cant survive alone and need a good crew. with throwing right fields.
that game will beat any other game.
guild wars 2 died fast because guilds and players couldn't get in the game they were stuck in QUE. when PvE events started in WvW you had like 100000 peoples waiting in que.
desolation with HIGH population PvE players and low+ WvW population you suddently had 30,000 players waiting for WvW while the WvW can only host 500 players total.
fail huh? so yh the next game with a good corporation that understand consequences that bring interesting PvE but also open WvW with Guild arenas that push for GvG and pretty much everything in pve/WvW. then you will have an awesome game that will survive being top 1 for 5+ years atleast.
EQ is pve they might have figured out a good combat system to get good team work running, then they might be able to figure out some good WvW too. if not they should hire someone good get some advisors from some TOP PvP guilds out there. VoTF red guard peoples that got experience running top DAOC style.
Just wanted to say, I hate GW2. PvP where your gear and level doesn't matter makes all the PvE in the game pointless. Go play a Moba.
Also several things add depth to the building process and thus the game play. These include optimising your build, optimising your gear for that build so that there isn't just 1 best gear set or 1 set for build but rather you pick gear based around your build so there are no set types and professions etc.
If you take away all these things, you not only take away a lot of game depth, you make the work of people who play any PvE pointless. If that's the case, just play a Moba.
Gear matters a lot in GW2's WvW pvp which is what the guy is talking about.
On that point though, another great thing about GW2 is that now players can get gold /gear and levels through spvp so have the choice of just doing pvp to gear up for WvW and play it as a pure pvp game if they want to. (Some people like myself really dislike pve in mmos, with some exceptions).
Also note that optimizing your build, and gear for your playstyle/build is an integral part of both spvp and WvW in GW2.
Regarding EQN, I hope there is an actual pvp server so that the pvp is integrated into the emergent AI and you can fight with different factions, with players able to help their faction expand/strengthen/become prosperous. For example perhaps evil players could side with orcs and help them raid/destroy human towns, fighting against npcs and players allied with the humans or working for that town as mercenaries.
In other words a dynamic world where player actions really shape the political, economic, and military makeup of the world. I have seen hints of this kind of thing in other mmos, but it still hasn't been pulled off convincingly. Partly because I think it is difficult to make permanent or semi-permanent change in mmos.
Regarding EQN, I hope there is an actual pvp server so that the pvp is integrated into the emergent AI and you can fight with different factions, with players able to help their faction expand/strengthen/become prosperous. For example perhaps evil players could side with orcs and help them raid/destroy human towns, fighting against npcs and players allied with the humans or working for that town as mercenaries.
In other words a dynamic world where player actions really shape the political, economic, and military makeup of the world. I have seen hints of this kind of thing in other mmos, but it still hasn't been pulled off convincingly. Partly because I think it is difficult to make permanent or semi-permanent change in mmos.
As much as that sounds attractive to a PvP minded person.. In the end, what you end up with more so, then not is a world dominated by 1 side, that makes playing that game useless and a waste of time for the losing faction.. You end up with a ghost server only occupied by the winning faction.. This is why most PvP type combat will install some form of "RESET".. and have multiple factions that one side doesn't getaway with what I just explained..
I tried to get into the PvP in GW2 and PS2, and found it boring as hell.. All you ended up with is a central mob running around taking and destroying what they can with little resistance.. Global PvP still turned out to be more about combat numbers of who has the biggest army, vs any strategy..
Regarding EQN, I hope there is an actual pvp server so that the pvp is integrated into the emergent AI and you can fight with different factions, with players able to help their faction expand/strengthen/become prosperous. For example perhaps evil players could side with orcs and help them raid/destroy human towns, fighting against npcs and players allied with the humans or working for that town as mercenaries.
In other words a dynamic world where player actions really shape the political, economic, and military makeup of the world. I have seen hints of this kind of thing in other mmos, but it still hasn't been pulled off convincingly. Partly because I think it is difficult to make permanent or semi-permanent change in mmos.
As much as that sounds attractive to a PvP minded person.. In the end, what you end up with more so, then not is a world dominated by 1 side, that makes playing that game useless and a waste of time for the losing faction.. You end up with a ghost server only occupied by the winning faction.. This is why most PvP type combat will install some form of "RESET".. and have multiple factions that one side doesn't getaway with what I just explained..
I tried to get into the PvP in GW2 and PS2, and found it boring as hell.. All you ended up with is a central mob running around taking and destroying what they can with little resistance.. Global PvP still turned out to be more about combat numbers of who has the biggest army, vs any strategy..
I have never seen an mmo do what I suggested before so not sure what the result would be. No doubt it is hard to do in an mmo or else it would have already been successfully attempted.
GW2 WvW if you run around with the zerg it is boring as hell, but if you are good at pvp and in a small group of reasonably good players on teamspeak you can have a lot of fun and beat much bigger armies. But there is no real change in that game's world. Its just rotating bases and castles around. I would love to see some actual change. See the humans actually expand their territory and wipe enemy towns off the map, for example. Join an orc horde and pillage across half the continent, really laying waste to everything and taking npcs as slaves who can be rescued later or who actually die and leave the game for good.
Yeah its probably just an impossible pipe dream for an mmo, I'll probably just have to stick to Mount and Blade for that type of thing.
Regarding EQN, I hope there is an actual pvp server so that the pvp is integrated into the emergent AI and you can fight with different factions, with players able to help their faction expand/strengthen/become prosperous. For example perhaps evil players could side with orcs and help them raid/destroy human towns, fighting against npcs and players allied with the humans or working for that town as mercenaries.
In other words a dynamic world where player actions really shape the political, economic, and military makeup of the world. I have seen hints of this kind of thing in other mmos, but it still hasn't been pulled off convincingly. Partly because I think it is difficult to make permanent or semi-permanent change in mmos.
Yea I guess PVP that give PVE factions a boost is asking to much.
But, what you said, but in a PvP context that has already been on the drawing board for other MMO(s). A fight over a keep that has land with resources (i.e. lumber,gold,stone etc.) that by controlling the keep gives an influx of resources to the keep owner should be doable. But, that might require GvG type PvP (or what EQQ1 had). I am not sure what kind of PvP model EQN will have, but for some reason I am guessing faction vs faction..? If so I guess it will be hard to implement other PvP than instanced Pvp like battlegrounds, arenas etc.
33 pages and going strong on this very topic. It "seems" that it will be consensual PVP... but we definitely need more info from the devs (hopefully before the end of the year).
33 pages and going strong on this very topic. It "seems" that it will be consensual PVP... but we definitely need more info from the devs (hopefully before the end of the year).
TY for the link.. I was reading many of them and there is definitely a tug of war of PvP supporters.. Some want open world FFA gankfest, while others want consensual.. I doubt SOE knows exactly how they will treat PvP today, and will wait till the last minute to see which side of the tug of war is winning.. LOL I saw many talking about SWG as an example, and there version of TEF (covert & overt) flagging was a game breaker for most players that caused I and others to leave the game.. SWG is the last example I think many would want to replicate or use..
Even WoW's TEF (temporary enemy flag) was too much.. I have no objection to TEF's as long as they are reasonable.. To me reasonable = TEF drops 5 seconds after the fight stops.. If you were NOT there to witness the fight, you have no clue I just killed a guard 2 minutes ago.. TEF should only last as long so that only immediate witnesses to the fight can take action.. I can't begin to count how many times players with tef's were ganked minutes later returning to city in SWG..
I don't think arena PvP is bad, just the opposite I think it's good and I don't blame it for PvP's failure.
The real failure point is open world PvP. I come at this from a converted perspective. I love PvP like they had in GW1, it was deep and wonderful. So I thought Darkfall was for me. The truth in open world PvP is that 9 out of 10 of the fights are not competitive. Large guilds dominate with zerg and hacking is rampant. WoW's no better, DAoC, WAR or any of them to me have the same flaw.
I don't get any joy out of attacking someone 6x1 and killing them, it's not fun. That's what the majority of open world PvP is, in every game and every form of open world PvP. I don't get any joy out of jumping someone 1x1 when they're not expecting it and killing them.
I want a fair fight, or I won't enjoy it.
I think my opinion is why most PvP players themselves don't like open world PvP. Most are looking for fair fights, but want larger fights, and fights that are for something important. I don't think there's any pvp games like that except through MOBA's.
All that said I'd be much happier if there was NO PVP in EQN. I think there will be some, but I hope that there is not.
it's sad you didn't try out Guild wars 2. when the GvG started in guild wars 2. it didn't matter how many pugs you bring. 25-30 guys can wipe 100. its all about throwing right fields at right time. I have seen videos when a guild going deep and killing 60+ in first bomb.
pugs and blobs are not co ordinated and if you got a action combat system you don't need number. you need co ordinated bombs. that is guild wars 2. that is why guild wars 2 attracted so many Guilds PvP hardcore guilds. because they had found a game with team work a big focus.
the next game out there. even if its a pve game with WvW. But the next game out there that bring both big PvE BUT A good que system with no lag, good combat system like guild wars 2 when you cant survive alone and need a good crew. with throwing right fields.
that game will beat any other game.
guild wars 2 died fast because guilds and players couldn't get in the game they were stuck in QUE. when PvE events started in WvW you had like 100000 peoples waiting in que.
desolation with HIGH population PvE players and low+ WvW population you suddently had 30,000 players waiting for WvW while the WvW can only host 500 players total.
fail huh? so yh the next game with a good corporation that understand consequences that bring interesting PvE but also open WvW with Guild arenas that push for GvG and pretty much everything in pve/WvW. then you will have an awesome game that will survive being top 1 for 5+ years atleast.
EQ is pve they might have figured out a good combat system to get good team work running, then they might be able to figure out some good WvW too. if not they should hire someone good get some advisors from some TOP PvP guilds out there. VoTF red guard peoples that got experience running top DAOC style.
Just wanted to say, I hate GW2. PvP where your gear and level doesn't matter makes all the PvE in the game pointless. Go play a Moba.
Also several things add depth to the building process and thus the game play. These include optimising your build, optimising your gear for that build so that there isn't just 1 best gear set or 1 set for build but rather you pick gear based around your build so there are no set types and professions etc.
If you take away all these things, you not only take away a lot of game depth, you make the work of people who play any PvE pointless. If that's the case, just play a Moba.
Gear matters a lot in GW2's WvW pvp which is what the guy is talking about.
On that point though, another great thing about GW2 is that now players can get gold /gear and levels through spvp so have the choice of just doing pvp to gear up for WvW and play it as a pure pvp game if they want to. (Some people like myself really dislike pve in mmos, with some exceptions).
Also note that optimizing your build, and gear for your playstyle/build is an integral part of both spvp and WvW in GW2.
Regarding EQN, I hope there is an actual pvp server so that the pvp is integrated into the emergent AI and you can fight with different factions, with players able to help their faction expand/strengthen/become prosperous. For example perhaps evil players could side with orcs and help them raid/destroy human towns, fighting against npcs and players allied with the humans or working for that town as mercenaries.
In other words a dynamic world where player actions really shape the political, economic, and military makeup of the world. I have seen hints of this kind of thing in other mmos, but it still hasn't been pulled off convincingly. Partly because I think it is difficult to make permanent or semi-permanent change in mmos.
Not true, structured pvp which is the main pvp method in gw 2 has everyone of the same level and the same gear and when you enter it you make your build from scratch.
Its like playing a completely separate game from GW2 like you are playing Nosgoth or any other 1st person MOBA. It renders the whole rpg aspect moot and gear and levelling and optimising importance is reduced too.
That is why GW2 in my opinion sucked. I know a lot of people who love it but that's because they don't have to compete on gear or level and can respect easily in pvp.
In fact they can avoid PvE entirely and just do PvP like in a clone shooter especially with the fully invasive inspects. If that's the case why are you playing a mmorpg, just go play a moba or nosgoth or warframe.
Not true, structured pvp which is the main pvp method in gw 2 has everyone of the same level and the same gear and when you enter it you make your build from scratch.
Its like playing a completely separate game from GW2 like you are playing Nosgoth or any other 1st person MOBA. It renders the whole rpg aspect moot and gear and levelling and optimising importance is reduced too.
That is why GW2 in my opinion sucked. I know a lot of people who love it but that's because they don't have to compete on gear or level and can respect easily in pvp.
In fact they can avoid PvE entirely and just do PvP like in a clone shooter especially with the fully invasive inspects. If that's the case why are you playing a mmorpg, just go play a moba or nosgoth or warframe.
GW2 is basically two different games in one. Those that want the no grind, skill matters side have sPVP. Those that want the mmorpg grind, decisions matter, skill to some degree, have the PVE/WvW side.
WvW had its moments but zerging or running around solo/small group looking for any form of competition was tiring (no originality at all).
sPVP on the other hand was fairly entertaining as it came down to skill either solo or as a team. Everyone has access to the same gear/builds and it is just a matter of putting it together and running over the other side.
Different approaches that they did pretty well at cramming into one game. You ask why people play a mmorpg if they aren't doing the PVE side, the answer is because they can. Same reason games like EQ/WoW that have been around for 10-15 years have level boosting. Why "waste" time if THE game is at the end of the grind. GW2 simply skips that "waste" part for some players.
I'm looking for a bit more PVE depth and now sit patiently for EQN.
Originally posted by Pepeq If you can turn PVP off and on, you have no real PVP. Any game that does this, is not a PVP game.
Yup. Another carebear PvEfest MMO. Just what we need. I'll pass.
Excellent.
The market needs a solid robust PvE focused game, and the less PvP obsessed complainers along the way demanding this or that the better.
The less white noise that gets in the way of what the true market wants, the more likely SOE will get out of the echo chamber of bad received wisdom that kills one game after another.
I fully agree. Look at all the FFA pvp MMO's out there, then look at the community they have. The community usually eats itself alive. Show me ONE FFA Pvp game that has lasted as long as EQ or Wow and been as popular? The correct answer would be zero.
EVE Online
And can we stop comparing everything to WoW's once in a million years when all the stars align success?
EVE Online is a very successful game that keeps growing with a very healthy stable player base and they keep adding onto EVE's features.
While FFA PvP MMOs night not be the highest popularity, but it does have a market presence. Now EQN will be PvE centric so all pvp will be consentual I would imagine, maybe certain servers or worlds might have more PvP centric rulesets but nothing forced if one so chooses not to participate in.
Originally posted by Pepeq If you can turn PVP off and on, you have no real PVP. Any game that does this, is not a PVP game.
Yup. Another carebear PvEfest MMO. Just what we need. I'll pass.
Excellent.
The market needs a solid robust PvE focused game, and the less PvP obsessed complainers along the way demanding this or that the better.
The less white noise that gets in the way of what the true market wants, the more likely SOE will get out of the echo chamber of bad received wisdom that kills one game after another.
I fully agree. Look at all the FFA pvp MMO's out there, then look at the community they have. The community usually eats itself alive. Show me ONE FFA Pvp game that has lasted as long as EQ or Wow and been as popular? The correct answer would be zero.
EVE Online
And can we stop comparing everything to WoW's once in a million years when all the stars align success?
EVE Online is a very successful game that keeps growing with a very healthy stable player base and they keep adding onto EVE's features.
While FFA PvP MMOs night not be the highest popularity, but it does have a market presence. Now EQN will be PvE centric so all pvp will be consentual I would imagine, maybe certain servers or worlds might have more PvP centric rulesets but nothing forced if one so chooses not to participate in.
Gotta agree with furbans here.
He seems to be saying that there is a mass market for pvp mmos and he is right there is.
On the other hand, the person who he replied to seems to be implying that all games should be PvE because he thinks no PvP mmos have ever been successful.
That guy is wrong, perhaps the PvE market is bigger than the PvP market but they are both mass markets and neither are niche markets, there is space for games for both.
If for some reason, all companies were making PvE only games, another would recognise the massive gap in the market and make PvP mmos, in fact this is already happening.
its also happening in other areas such as the mass market for adult gamers which has suffered over the past 5 years as the move to online gaming has started witht he initial focus being on getting as many gamers from all groups as possible rather than making a game for any one group with companies like prepare to die growing the way Blizzard and Bioware did when they 1st were making adult pc games in their infancy.
They left a gap in the market and its being filled. that's how it works.
its stupid to say there is a market for PvE so none can exist for PvP or even to suggest PvP is a niche market. A niche market is hardcore mode in diablo 3 with perma death, PvP is a mass market.
Originally posted by Pepeq If you can turn PVP off and on, you have no real PVP. Any game that does this, is not a PVP game.
Yup. Another carebear PvEfest MMO. Just what we need. I'll pass.
Excellent.
The market needs a solid robust PvE focused game, and the less PvP obsessed complainers along the way demanding this or that the better.
The less white noise that gets in the way of what the true market wants, the more likely SOE will get out of the echo chamber of bad received wisdom that kills one game after another.
I fully agree. Look at all the FFA pvp MMO's out there, then look at the community they have. The community usually eats itself alive. Show me ONE FFA Pvp game that has lasted as long as EQ or Wow and been as popular? The correct answer would be zero.
EVE Online
And can we stop comparing everything to WoW's once in a million years when all the stars align success?
EVE Online is a very successful game that keeps growing with a very healthy stable player base and they keep adding onto EVE's features.
While FFA PvP MMOs night not be the highest popularity, but it does have a market presence. Now EQN will be PvE centric so all pvp will be consentual I would imagine, maybe certain servers or worlds might have more PvP centric rulesets but nothing forced if one so chooses not to participate in.
Gotta agree with furbans here.
He seems to be saying that there is a mass market for pvp mmos and he is right there is.
On the other hand, the person who he replied to seems to be implying that all games should be PvE because he thinks no PvP mmos have ever been successful.
That guy is wrong, perhaps the PvE market is bigger than the PvP market but they are both mass markets and neither are niche markets, there is space for games for both.
If for some reason, all companies were making PvE only games, another would recognise the massive gap in the market and make PvP mmos, in fact this is already happening.
its also happening in other areas such as the mass market for adult gamers which has suffered over the past 5 years as the move to online gaming has started witht he initial focus being on getting as many gamers from all groups as possible rather than making a game for any one group with companies like prepare to die growing the way Blizzard and Bioware did when they 1st were making adult pc games in their infancy.
They left a gap in the market and its being filled. that's how it works.
its stupid to say there is a market for PvE so none can exist for PvP or even to suggest PvP is a niche market. A niche market is hardcore mode in diablo 3 with perma death, PvP is a mass market.
I am in complete agreement when it comes to market for PvP MMO's. The market is absolutely huge, however no proper titles for said market (Triple A games or close to that) have been released since EVE (which isn't directly a PvP MMO either). Shadowbane & Dark Age of Camelot were widely successful back in their days when compared to the size of total MMO market when they came out.
Best part is, imagine if World of Warcraft had followed the pre-alpha plan (path of conquest and siege based PvP and adventures) prior to the EQ people taking it over [That at least the product was according to rumors and of the pirated version I played]; it would have turned into a vastly different game (much closer to Shadowbane than the EQ model as an example) with the marketing behind it, people would have flocked to such MMO. We wouldn't be seeing themeparks, we'd see copies of PvP MMOs following the success of the giant.
Originally posted by Pepeq If you can turn PVP off and on, you have no real PVP. Any game that does this, is not a PVP game.
Yup. Another carebear PvEfest MMO. Just what we need. I'll pass.
Excellent.
The market needs a solid robust PvE focused game, and the less PvP obsessed complainers along the way demanding this or that the better.
The less white noise that gets in the way of what the true market wants, the more likely SOE will get out of the echo chamber of bad received wisdom that kills one game after another.
I fully agree. Look at all the FFA pvp MMO's out there, then look at the community they have. The community usually eats itself alive. Show me ONE FFA Pvp game that has lasted as long as EQ or Wow and been as popular? The correct answer would be zero.
EVE Online
And can we stop comparing everything to WoW's once in a million years when all the stars align success?
EVE Online is a very successful game that keeps growing with a very healthy stable player base and they keep adding onto EVE's features.
While FFA PvP MMOs night not be the highest popularity, but it does have a market presence. Now EQN will be PvE centric so all pvp will be consentual I would imagine, maybe certain servers or worlds might have more PvP centric rulesets but nothing forced if one so chooses not to participate in.
Gotta agree with furbans here.
He seems to be saying that there is a mass market for pvp mmos and he is right there is.
On the other hand, the person who he replied to seems to be implying that all games should be PvE because he thinks no PvP mmos have ever been successful.
That guy is wrong, perhaps the PvE market is bigger than the PvP market but they are both mass markets and neither are niche markets, there is space for games for both.
If for some reason, all companies were making PvE only games, another would recognise the massive gap in the market and make PvP mmos, in fact this is already happening.
its also happening in other areas such as the mass market for adult gamers which has suffered over the past 5 years as the move to online gaming has started witht he initial focus being on getting as many gamers from all groups as possible rather than making a game for any one group with companies like prepare to die growing the way Blizzard and Bioware did when they 1st were making adult pc games in their infancy.
They left a gap in the market and its being filled. that's how it works.
its stupid to say there is a market for PvE so none can exist for PvP or even to suggest PvP is a niche market. A niche market is hardcore mode in diablo 3 with perma death, PvP is a mass market.
I am in complete agreement when it comes to market for PvP MMO's. The market is absolutely huge, however no proper titles for said market (Triple A games or close to that) have been released since EVE (which isn't directly a PvP MMO either). Shadowbane & Dark Age of Camelot were widely successful back in their days when compared to the size of total MMO market when they came out.
Best part is, imagine if World of Warcraft had followed the pre-alpha plan (path of conquest and siege based PvP and adventures) prior to the EQ people taking it over [That at least the product was according to rumors and of the pirated version I played]; it would have turned into a vastly different game (much closer to Shadowbane than the EQ model as an example) with the marketing behind it, people would have flocked to such MMO. We wouldn't be seeing themeparks, we'd see copies of PvP MMOs following the success of the giant.
I would not disagree that there is a large market for PvP.
I think the problem though is that there is a niche group of gamers out there, whose mission is to make anyone who plays one of these games regret their decision. And that bears heavily on the success of these games.
Also I don't think you can compare the older PvP games to the new stuff. Again, online gaming was pretty new back then and people had different attitudes towards playing and PvP. But gamers have become more competitive and more ruthless now and you can't go into a game and just have some fun PvP anymore. It's become gank or be ganked, followed by verbal abuse, now.
Not the experience a lot of people are looking for.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I would not disagree that there is a large market for PvP.
I think the problem though is that there is a niche group of gamers out there, whose mission is to make anyone who plays one of these games regret their decision. And that bears heavily on the success of these games.
Also I don't think you can compare the older PvP games to the new stuff. Again, online gaming was pretty new back then and people had different attitudes towards playing and PvP. But gamers have become more competitive and more ruthless now and you can't go into a game and just have some fun PvP anymore. It's become gank or be ganked, followed by verbal abuse, now.
Not the experience a lot of people are looking for.
agree and well said..
My experience is that the PvP crowd is split in two.. Half want meaningful PvP similar to the large battlegrounds in WoW, while the other half just want to gank easier targets.. I think we all know which half is more disruptive and ruins a game more so then the other half..
Originally posted by Pepeq If you can turn PVP off and on, you have no real PVP. Any game that does this, is not a PVP game.
Yup. Another carebear PvEfest MMO. Just what we need. I'll pass.
Excellent.
The market needs a solid robust PvE focused game, and the less PvP obsessed complainers along the way demanding this or that the better.
The less white noise that gets in the way of what the true market wants, the more likely SOE will get out of the echo chamber of bad received wisdom that kills one game after another.
I fully agree. Look at all the FFA pvp MMO's out there, then look at the community they have. The community usually eats itself alive. Show me ONE FFA Pvp game that has lasted as long as EQ or Wow and been as popular? The correct answer would be zero.
EVE Online
And can we stop comparing everything to WoW's once in a million years when all the stars align success?
EVE Online is a very successful game that keeps growing with a very healthy stable player base and they keep adding onto EVE's features.
While FFA PvP MMOs night not be the highest popularity, but it does have a market presence. Now EQN will be PvE centric so all pvp will be consentual I would imagine, maybe certain servers or worlds might have more PvP centric rulesets but nothing forced if one so chooses not to participate in.
Gotta agree with furbans here.
He seems to be saying that there is a mass market for pvp mmos and he is right there is.
On the other hand, the person who he replied to seems to be implying that all games should be PvE because he thinks no PvP mmos have ever been successful.
That guy is wrong, perhaps the PvE market is bigger than the PvP market but they are both mass markets and neither are niche markets, there is space for games for both.
If for some reason, all companies were making PvE only games, another would recognise the massive gap in the market and make PvP mmos, in fact this is already happening.
its also happening in other areas such as the mass market for adult gamers which has suffered over the past 5 years as the move to online gaming has started witht he initial focus being on getting as many gamers from all groups as possible rather than making a game for any one group with companies like prepare to die growing the way Blizzard and Bioware did when they 1st were making adult pc games in their infancy.
They left a gap in the market and its being filled. that's how it works.
its stupid to say there is a market for PvE so none can exist for PvP or even to suggest PvP is a niche market. A niche market is hardcore mode in diablo 3 with perma death, PvP is a mass market.
I am in complete agreement when it comes to market for PvP MMO's. The market is absolutely huge, however no proper titles for said market (Triple A games or close to that) have been released since EVE (which isn't directly a PvP MMO either). Shadowbane & Dark Age of Camelot were widely successful back in their days when compared to the size of total MMO market when they came out.
Best part is, imagine if World of Warcraft had followed the pre-alpha plan (path of conquest and siege based PvP and adventures) prior to the EQ people taking it over [That at least the product was according to rumors and of the pirated version I played]; it would have turned into a vastly different game (much closer to Shadowbane than the EQ model as an example) with the marketing behind it, people would have flocked to such MMO. We wouldn't be seeing themeparks, we'd see copies of PvP MMOs following the success of the giant.
I would not disagree that there is a large market for PvP.
I think the problem though is that there is a niche group of gamers out there, whose mission is to make anyone who plays one of these games regret their decision. And that bears heavily on the success of these games.
Also I don't think you can compare the older PvP games to the new stuff. Again, online gaming was pretty new back then and people had different attitudes towards playing and PvP. But gamers have become more competitive and more ruthless now and you can't go into a game and just have some fun PvP anymore. It's become gank or be ganked, followed by verbal abuse, now.
Not the experience a lot of people are looking for.
I agree with it.
Imo this has also to do with the unfamiliar atmosphere we have nowadays.
Back when I was playing Meridian you knew everyone on the server and when someone was a douche it was well known.
Today we have so many players overall and so many per server it doesnt matter much at all. Ok in Meridian we had only about 250 people per server. Its much easier to remind names there.
Something has to be done against this and with the amount of people on the servers we have nowadays the only thing I can see is some sort of mechanic that lets those people regret those decision.
Im thinking of the jury system in AA (but with lots of changes to it), NPC-KOS for excessive PKing and bounty systems. There has to be some mechanics that flags gankers, or people scamming and grifing others.
Imo this is the only way to get PvP to a state again where there is fun in PvP and not 80% stealth gankers who are waiting for you to engage a mob and then kill you and spawn camp you.
I think AA had a really good approach with the jury system but droped the ball with the bloodlust-mode, easy ways to get rid of your infamy points and that people with high infamy weren't kos to everyone everywhere.
Beeing unable to attack someone who is well known as PK just because he's in your faction and near an NPC guard is a stupid idea. They should live in fear to being attacked all the time for being a pk and doing the same to others.
This seems like a great game for splitting servers, a la PvP and PvE.
PvE server would have no PvP in the world.
PvP server would have PvP in the sense that if I was helping out some dwarven faction and somebody else was helping out some elven faction and the two factions were competing with each other we would be able to fight each other in the contested land(s). Seems pretty simple to me and would fit into the AI/world changing system they have in place.
If there is no world pvp, I will not even consider trying it. We'll see.
THIS 10000000%
A fully PvE Carebare game (ugh just saying Carebare irritates me) is lame and boring.
PvE servers for the players who want all PvE, all the time. And PvP servers for those who live for, love, and enjoy open world PvP. Does ganking happen? Sure. Does it suck sometimes? Sure. But its nothing close to being a big enough deal to ruin my day. As long as you dont take yourself too seriously and you enjoy all the other wonderful chance experiences that can only come of OWPvP then its all in good fun.
The happiest memories and best experiences ive ever had in an MMO were random open world PvP battles in WoW. Even some of those started with a gank, then the person who got ganked called some of his friends to help kill the ganker, who in turn called His friends and so on. Loads of fun and for your information did not end in hurt feelings or any sissy carebare nonsense but actually ended in both sides having a blast battling each other all over the zone and /wave /bow's to eachother then moving on with their day. Good times.
I absolultely believe there should be PvE servers for those who only wish to engage in PvP when they feel like. Definitely.
However, There is no reason to not have PvP servers available for those who enjoy and want open world PvP. As long as PvP servers are included, myself and many others will be very happy campers being able to play with like minded people
Comments
I self identify as a monkey.
Just because MOBA's are not your cup of tea , just because you had a bad experience in some MOBA and found the community nasty doesn't mean certain features won't carry over.
Firstly, EQnext is going to be action combat.
Secondly this means that players will be able to "combo" off one another in combat.
What does this mean you ask?
instead of Min/Max MMO's of the past , where a Rogue, or Mage, got the best gear, then proceeded to go around 1 shotting everything that moved, without the need for support (he basically just went around soloing everything.), we will have more team based MMORPG's in which you do rely more on your team mates in combat.
This will improve the social aspects of MMO's, as this has stagnated over the past years, because people could just log in and do a bunch of stuff without having to put in effort with their team mates. This will also eliminate the min/maxing crowd which have social issues, and bring that negative attitude into games, because people like this will be at a disadvantage in a 2v1 situation where the 2 people are playing in tandem and combo'ing off one another.
This doesn't mean that you "need" your teammates, it just means that they are a wonderful bonus, and if you try and 'work' with them, the results are fruitful.
This is the reason EQnext, can and will be a PvP MMORPG that succeeds in creating a wonderful world where PvP flourishes, because any player that tries to bring/or play with that solo I do everything attitude will be at a huge disadvantage.
Why?
Because we've moved away from tab target. That system is done with and was being abused through its weaknesses
I don't think arena PvP is bad, just the opposite I think it's good and I don't blame it for PvP's failure.
The real failure point is open world PvP. I come at this from a converted perspective. I love PvP like they had in GW1, it was deep and wonderful. So I thought Darkfall was for me. The truth in open world PvP is that 9 out of 10 of the fights are not competitive. Large guilds dominate with zerg and hacking is rampant. WoW's no better, DAoC, WAR or any of them to me have the same flaw.
I don't get any joy out of attacking someone 6x1 and killing them, it's not fun. That's what the majority of open world PvP is, in every game and every form of open world PvP. I don't get any joy out of jumping someone 1x1 when they're not expecting it and killing them.
I want a fair fight, or I won't enjoy it.
I think my opinion is why most PvP players themselves don't like open world PvP. Most are looking for fair fights, but want larger fights, and fights that are for something important. I don't think there's any pvp games like that except through MOBA's.
All that said I'd be much happier if there was NO PVP in EQN. I think there will be some, but I hope that there is not.
Asdar
What, just because it's a "sandbox" now? Did you play on one of the PvP servers back in "the day".
EQ has always been a PvE centric franchise.
And why would SOE take the risk of making it PvP when very few PvP centric MMOs have found success?
So why do people think that EQ is going to suddenly turn PvP
Yeap.. EQ was a PvE centric franchise.. as it was a themepark... and it was rather linear with a deep vertical progression.
Now it is(EQN) going to be a sandbox.. it will be with more horizontal progressen instead of vertical progression.. it will be a lot more in succession of games like UO and/or SWG.. and therefore we ask the pvp question. Because those games were more pvp centric, instead of pve centric. I think it is a valid question.
However.. i doubt it will be hardcore pvp.. or hardcore in any way for that matter. But a SWGish pvp system or anything along that line could be very well be the case. We will see.
it's sad you didn't try out Guild wars 2. when the GvG started in guild wars 2. it didn't matter how many pugs you bring. 25-30 guys can wipe 100. its all about throwing right fields at right time. I have seen videos when a guild going deep and killing 60+ in first bomb.
pugs and blobs are not co ordinated and if you got a action combat system you don't need number. you need co ordinated bombs. that is guild wars 2. that is why guild wars 2 attracted so many Guilds PvP hardcore guilds. because they had found a game with team work a big focus.
the next game out there. even if its a pve game with WvW. But the next game out there that bring both big PvE BUT A good que system with no lag, good combat system like guild wars 2 when you cant survive alone and need a good crew. with throwing right fields.
that game will beat any other game.
guild wars 2 died fast because guilds and players couldn't get in the game they were stuck in QUE. when PvE events started in WvW you had like 100000 peoples waiting in que.
desolation with HIGH population PvE players and low+ WvW population you suddently had 30,000 players waiting for WvW while the WvW can only host 500 players total.
fail huh? so yh the next game with a good corporation that understand consequences that bring interesting PvE but also open WvW with Guild arenas that push for GvG and pretty much everything in pve/WvW. then you will have an awesome game that will survive being top 1 for 5+ years atleast.
EQ is pve they might have figured out a good combat system to get good team work running, then they might be able to figure out some good WvW too. if not they should hire someone good get some advisors from some TOP PvP guilds out there. VoTF red guard peoples that got experience running top DAOC style.
This seems like a great game for splitting servers, a la PvP and PvE.
PvE server would have no PvP in the world.
PvP server would have PvP in the sense that if I was helping out some dwarven faction and somebody else was helping out some elven faction and the two factions were competing with each other we would be able to fight each other in the contested land(s). Seems pretty simple to me and would fit into the AI/world changing system they have in place.
If there is no world pvp, I will not even consider trying it. We'll see.
Great, move along there is nothing to see here then. Plenty of pvp focused games to play with lots of noobs awaiting ganking... Gogogo they don't grief themselves.
And the usual correction that apparantly is needed in every eqnext thread.. Original eq was not themepark, neither was it sandbox, it was open world. Second, sandbox does not require pvp, and it is possible that eqnext could be sandbox... Or it could be just a themepark disguised as sandbox, at this point we do not know.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Got to agree with this tbh, PvP is a fundamental aspect of any mmo for me. If there isn't a big pvp element, I will just go play the witcher.
Just wanted to say, I hate GW2. PvP where your gear and level doesn't matter makes all the PvE in the game pointless. Go play a Moba.
Also several things add depth to the building process and thus the game play. These include optimising your build, optimising your gear for that build so that there isn't just 1 best gear set or 1 set for build but rather you pick gear based around your build so there are no set types and professions etc.
If you take away all these things, you not only take away a lot of game depth, you make the work of people who play any PvE pointless. If that's the case, just play a Moba.
Gear matters a lot in GW2's WvW pvp which is what the guy is talking about.
On that point though, another great thing about GW2 is that now players can get gold /gear and levels through spvp so have the choice of just doing pvp to gear up for WvW and play it as a pure pvp game if they want to. (Some people like myself really dislike pve in mmos, with some exceptions).
Also note that optimizing your build, and gear for your playstyle/build is an integral part of both spvp and WvW in GW2.
Regarding EQN, I hope there is an actual pvp server so that the pvp is integrated into the emergent AI and you can fight with different factions, with players able to help their faction expand/strengthen/become prosperous. For example perhaps evil players could side with orcs and help them raid/destroy human towns, fighting against npcs and players allied with the humans or working for that town as mercenaries.
In other words a dynamic world where player actions really shape the political, economic, and military makeup of the world. I have seen hints of this kind of thing in other mmos, but it still hasn't been pulled off convincingly. Partly because I think it is difficult to make permanent or semi-permanent change in mmos.
As much as that sounds attractive to a PvP minded person.. In the end, what you end up with more so, then not is a world dominated by 1 side, that makes playing that game useless and a waste of time for the losing faction.. You end up with a ghost server only occupied by the winning faction.. This is why most PvP type combat will install some form of "RESET".. and have multiple factions that one side doesn't getaway with what I just explained..
I tried to get into the PvP in GW2 and PS2, and found it boring as hell.. All you ended up with is a central mob running around taking and destroying what they can with little resistance.. Global PvP still turned out to be more about combat numbers of who has the biggest army, vs any strategy..
I have never seen an mmo do what I suggested before so not sure what the result would be. No doubt it is hard to do in an mmo or else it would have already been successfully attempted.
GW2 WvW if you run around with the zerg it is boring as hell, but if you are good at pvp and in a small group of reasonably good players on teamspeak you can have a lot of fun and beat much bigger armies. But there is no real change in that game's world. Its just rotating bases and castles around. I would love to see some actual change. See the humans actually expand their territory and wipe enemy towns off the map, for example. Join an orc horde and pillage across half the continent, really laying waste to everything and taking npcs as slaves who can be rescued later or who actually die and leave the game for good.
Yeah its probably just an impossible pipe dream for an mmo, I'll probably just have to stick to Mount and Blade for that type of thing.
Yea I guess PVP that give PVE factions a boost is asking to much.
But, what you said, but in a PvP context that has already been on the drawing board for other MMO(s). A fight over a keep that has land with resources (i.e. lumber,gold,stone etc.) that by controlling the keep gives an influx of resources to the keep owner should be doable. But, that might require GvG type PvP (or what EQQ1 had). I am not sure what kind of PvP model EQN will have, but for some reason I am guessing faction vs faction..? If so I guess it will be hard to implement other PvP than instanced Pvp like battlegrounds, arenas etc.
https://forums.station.sony.com/everquestnext/index.php?threads/implied-consentual-pvp.586/
33 pages and going strong on this very topic. It "seems" that it will be consensual PVP... but we definitely need more info from the devs (hopefully before the end of the year).
TY for the link.. I was reading many of them and there is definitely a tug of war of PvP supporters.. Some want open world FFA gankfest, while others want consensual.. I doubt SOE knows exactly how they will treat PvP today, and will wait till the last minute to see which side of the tug of war is winning.. LOL I saw many talking about SWG as an example, and there version of TEF (covert & overt) flagging was a game breaker for most players that caused I and others to leave the game.. SWG is the last example I think many would want to replicate or use..
Even WoW's TEF (temporary enemy flag) was too much.. I have no objection to TEF's as long as they are reasonable.. To me reasonable = TEF drops 5 seconds after the fight stops.. If you were NOT there to witness the fight, you have no clue I just killed a guard 2 minutes ago.. TEF should only last as long so that only immediate witnesses to the fight can take action.. I can't begin to count how many times players with tef's were ganked minutes later returning to city in SWG..
Not true, structured pvp which is the main pvp method in gw 2 has everyone of the same level and the same gear and when you enter it you make your build from scratch.
Its like playing a completely separate game from GW2 like you are playing Nosgoth or any other 1st person MOBA. It renders the whole rpg aspect moot and gear and levelling and optimising importance is reduced too.
That is why GW2 in my opinion sucked. I know a lot of people who love it but that's because they don't have to compete on gear or level and can respect easily in pvp.
In fact they can avoid PvE entirely and just do PvP like in a clone shooter especially with the fully invasive inspects. If that's the case why are you playing a mmorpg, just go play a moba or nosgoth or warframe.
GW2 is basically two different games in one. Those that want the no grind, skill matters side have sPVP. Those that want the mmorpg grind, decisions matter, skill to some degree, have the PVE/WvW side.
WvW had its moments but zerging or running around solo/small group looking for any form of competition was tiring (no originality at all).
sPVP on the other hand was fairly entertaining as it came down to skill either solo or as a team. Everyone has access to the same gear/builds and it is just a matter of putting it together and running over the other side.
Different approaches that they did pretty well at cramming into one game. You ask why people play a mmorpg if they aren't doing the PVE side, the answer is because they can. Same reason games like EQ/WoW that have been around for 10-15 years have level boosting. Why "waste" time if THE game is at the end of the grind. GW2 simply skips that "waste" part for some players.
I'm looking for a bit more PVE depth and now sit patiently for EQN.
EVE Online
And can we stop comparing everything to WoW's once in a million years when all the stars align success?
EVE Online is a very successful game that keeps growing with a very healthy stable player base and they keep adding onto EVE's features.
While FFA PvP MMOs night not be the highest popularity, but it does have a market presence. Now EQN will be PvE centric so all pvp will be consentual I would imagine, maybe certain servers or worlds might have more PvP centric rulesets but nothing forced if one so chooses not to participate in.
Gotta agree with furbans here.
He seems to be saying that there is a mass market for pvp mmos and he is right there is.
On the other hand, the person who he replied to seems to be implying that all games should be PvE because he thinks no PvP mmos have ever been successful.
That guy is wrong, perhaps the PvE market is bigger than the PvP market but they are both mass markets and neither are niche markets, there is space for games for both.
If for some reason, all companies were making PvE only games, another would recognise the massive gap in the market and make PvP mmos, in fact this is already happening.
its also happening in other areas such as the mass market for adult gamers which has suffered over the past 5 years as the move to online gaming has started witht he initial focus being on getting as many gamers from all groups as possible rather than making a game for any one group with companies like prepare to die growing the way Blizzard and Bioware did when they 1st were making adult pc games in their infancy.
They left a gap in the market and its being filled. that's how it works.
its stupid to say there is a market for PvE so none can exist for PvP or even to suggest PvP is a niche market. A niche market is hardcore mode in diablo 3 with perma death, PvP is a mass market.
I am in complete agreement when it comes to market for PvP MMO's. The market is absolutely huge, however no proper titles for said market (Triple A games or close to that) have been released since EVE (which isn't directly a PvP MMO either). Shadowbane & Dark Age of Camelot were widely successful back in their days when compared to the size of total MMO market when they came out.
Best part is, imagine if World of Warcraft had followed the pre-alpha plan (path of conquest and siege based PvP and adventures) prior to the EQ people taking it over [That at least the product was according to rumors and of the pirated version I played]; it would have turned into a vastly different game (much closer to Shadowbane than the EQ model as an example) with the marketing behind it, people would have flocked to such MMO. We wouldn't be seeing themeparks, we'd see copies of PvP MMOs following the success of the giant.
I would not disagree that there is a large market for PvP.
I think the problem though is that there is a niche group of gamers out there, whose mission is to make anyone who plays one of these games regret their decision. And that bears heavily on the success of these games.
Also I don't think you can compare the older PvP games to the new stuff. Again, online gaming was pretty new back then and people had different attitudes towards playing and PvP. But gamers have become more competitive and more ruthless now and you can't go into a game and just have some fun PvP anymore. It's become gank or be ganked, followed by verbal abuse, now.
Not the experience a lot of people are looking for.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
agree and well said..
My experience is that the PvP crowd is split in two.. Half want meaningful PvP similar to the large battlegrounds in WoW, while the other half just want to gank easier targets.. I think we all know which half is more disruptive and ruins a game more so then the other half..
I agree with it.
Imo this has also to do with the unfamiliar atmosphere we have nowadays.
Back when I was playing Meridian you knew everyone on the server and when someone was a douche it was well known.
Today we have so many players overall and so many per server it doesnt matter much at all. Ok in Meridian we had only about 250 people per server. Its much easier to remind names there.
Something has to be done against this and with the amount of people on the servers we have nowadays the only thing I can see is some sort of mechanic that lets those people regret those decision.
Im thinking of the jury system in AA (but with lots of changes to it), NPC-KOS for excessive PKing and bounty systems. There has to be some mechanics that flags gankers, or people scamming and grifing others.
Imo this is the only way to get PvP to a state again where there is fun in PvP and not 80% stealth gankers who are waiting for you to engage a mob and then kill you and spawn camp you.
I think AA had a really good approach with the jury system but droped the ball with the bloodlust-mode, easy ways to get rid of your infamy points and that people with high infamy weren't kos to everyone everywhere.
Beeing unable to attack someone who is well known as PK just because he's in your faction and near an NPC guard is a stupid idea. They should live in fear to being attacked all the time for being a pk and doing the same to others.
1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO
Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon
THIS 10000000%
A fully PvE Carebare game (ugh just saying Carebare irritates me) is lame and boring.
PvE servers for the players who want all PvE, all the time. And PvP servers for those who live for, love, and enjoy open world PvP. Does ganking happen? Sure. Does it suck sometimes? Sure. But its nothing close to being a big enough deal to ruin my day. As long as you dont take yourself too seriously and you enjoy all the other wonderful chance experiences that can only come of OWPvP then its all in good fun.
The happiest memories and best experiences ive ever had in an MMO were random open world PvP battles in WoW. Even some of those started with a gank, then the person who got ganked called some of his friends to help kill the ganker, who in turn called His friends and so on. Loads of fun and for your information did not end in hurt feelings or any sissy carebare nonsense but actually ended in both sides having a blast battling each other all over the zone and /wave /bow's to eachother then moving on with their day. Good times.
I absolultely believe there should be PvE servers for those who only wish to engage in PvP when they feel like. Definitely.
However, There is no reason to not have PvP servers available for those who enjoy and want open world PvP. As long as PvP servers are included, myself and many others will be very happy campers being able to play with like minded people