Final Fantasy XI had nothing earth shattering about it and was more a niche game than anything.
Except it had more subscriptions than EQ, and for a far longer period of time.
Group oriented content, skillchains, amazing story, cross platform.
Nope nothing there......
That is complete nonsense. Might have had more subs than Ultima, but not even close with EQ. I had some friends who played it and I tried it with them. It never had much of a following and the servers never had anything close to full ever. My friends were constantly trying to recruit people to play. Besides the cross platform, the game offered nothing new at all, except a lot of grinding. Asheron's Call was a better game with skill chains. As to lore, it was not any better than any other of the genre at that time.
Final Fantasy XI was a MMO backwater, that really never had any success beyond the small niche of players it had.
As to EQ pulling from Linage, that has to be the most ridiculous assertion I have seen on this forum lately. The games are nothing alike at all.
Are you trolling? FFXI was pretty damn popular at one time, not so much now, but it used to be. It was the first Final Fantasy MMORPG... It was bound to be popular because of that alone. Your friend's guild probably just sucked. If it did as poorly as you make it sound Square Enix wouldn't still be doing expansions and updates for it (not to mention it would most likely be F2P by now).
4. SWG - another sandbox done right, later faltered due to NGE changes
5. WOW - Polish with a capital P, casual friendly and accomodated many playstyles including soloing for all classes
See Richard? There's the list you should have used.
Accept like others have already mentioned, the author wasn't doing an article on "The Most Important Western MMOs of The First Modern Decade." He was doing "The Most Important MMOs of the First Modern Decade," which includes MMOs from outside the West. Sorry, but if games like Lineage and FFXI hadn't been made the MMO/MMORPG genre as we know it would be vastly different.
I could easily say the same about WoW i think WoW is garbage and did more harm than good.regardless of my personal feelings on it as a gamer doesn't change the impact it had on the future of the genre......Most of these games in question helped to shape a genre some more than others.
I honestly believe like many said this was a click bait article.this isn't about how good or bad these games are they launched and had an impact some even genre defining game changers.
Leaving personal experience and favor aside you have to judge the impact of those MMOs not only what they ultimatically contributed to the genre but as well at what time.
A decade for a gamer back then was basicaly your whole childhood.
Winning a discussion is not what it's about. If you could pass insight to someone or learn something from it in return - noone can really loose, can they?
I do not. I am typically not a link poster just an educator. If I am wrong and I am more than I care to admit =p
I own it. I have a history on this site since 2006 of doing just that. I do not have links to support my inference to the feature set of a game that predates one game to use those same said features. I think Lineage is more than under appreciated in western countries. Many features found in the game found their way into EQ as well almost code for code. If I am wrong I am sorry. I do believe that though.Facts are facts. Feature sets from an earlier game can be an easy line to draw when a game released after it has features almost identical. Ask the WOW haters or lovers.
The reason or one of the main reasons for EQ popular reception in the western market was that it was not as focused on PVP.. That was what really helped carve Lineage into the massive success it had. (has, people still pay to play it just like EQ)
EQ took a more broad approach to their demographic and wanted to extend beyond just the younger mostly male competitive market and appeal to a wider audience. Though this never really took off in other parts of the world with EQ in the West it was the Super Sauce they needed to go beyond what UO did and really drive home (or in it's home) a winning formula. Along with AC, which released the same year as EQ. Also I think a royal class and system was a turn off to the western market. Which was odd to me as a Korean because I did not understand why they would still enjoy Camping so much and waiting to zone so much? Plus for a game called EverQuest it was not so intuitive to find and complete some quests. I think UO and AC rushed it to market. I am not saying it was bad. EQ holds a special place in MMO History. It was one of the first games to make you want to upgrade to a better computer lol. Like Myst did for the CD Drive. I just do not know how really important it really was compared to those before and after it. It is not an article on popularity contests but on importance to the genre. EQ was only really big in one country. I personally never heard of it until 2002 I heard of Asheron's Call first from the western market. I was playing Lineage and loving every minute of it. Remember Lineage already had 3 million (give or take) subscribers before it ever even launched in the USA. Richard Garriott (yes Lord British) helped bring Lineage to the USA with NCSoft. His quote on why he got involved after leaving Origin was
" The fact that they already had the number one game in the world by far was a great benefit"
Lineage dominated everywhere but the USA. Only US gamers become so passionate about EQ. The rest of the world was always like eh. Even Japan, who wanted Lineage and Final Fantasy. I think the Western Audience really wanted the 3D game. Not isometric. That was a big key I think.
I think in 2001 the west really began to thirst for more competitve gameplay. Hence Dark Age of Camelot finding an audience. Runescape also launched that year.
So sorry if I have offended you. I meant no hard or ill intent. I just agree with the article. EQ was not to me more important than Lineage or UO or many others.
It's not offensive in the least and it's nice to have the first-hand gaming experience of a Korean added to this discussion. The fact is that our gaming and especially MMO histories are very different. And like you, I'm not really interested in the chicken/egg discussion about which dissected feature appeared where first.
Perhaps it's the premise of this article, the global perspective, that is of dubious value. From a investment and financial perspective, it makes some sense to consider the global MMO market and some developers, hoping to gain a foothold in their non-native market do just that. But those are few and honestly, it's much more the Eastern developers attempting to make inroads in the West than the other way around.
I really see it as two industries: each with its own quirks, some of which look incomprehensible to the other side. They draw from different gaming traditions and even cultural traditions. Here in the west we are also heavily influenced by our fantasy and Scifi literature just as I'm sure you are in the East by yours. But they're very different traditions.
We might as well be discussing whether the Pyramids or The Great Wall were more significant achievements
I still say we need two lists with maybe a side discussion about which of the 5 from each list had a more significant crossover influence... and my bet is on WOW, not Lineage.
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I think the only thing Lineage and other Asian MMORPG has brought to the table is gold spam in chat and I can't see anything innovative or important in that.
You know MMORPG is really starting to erk me with its NON MMORPG in the game list and troll articles like this one.
Back in the day this site was really cool to visit. Games like AC, UO, EQ, DAOC and AO were always on the front page.
Now its full of single player games and troll articles about how great MMOS are with gold spam in the chat.
Picking the "5" most "important" MMO's of the first era is an impossible task. Depending on where you lived, depending on what MMO's you played, the answer is going to vary.
I never played EQ, it had no influence on me, in fact I was one of those rare US Lineage 1 players, and it's castle siege design had a large influence on the next MMO's I played including DAOC, Shadowbane, Lineage 2, WOW and eventually EVE.
Notice, they all revolve around territory control for the most part, with WOW being the notable exception, but hey, I fell for the hype being a long time Blizzard supporter with Diablo 1/2, Starcraft and the Warcraft series.
Now as others have said, you could easily separate the lists into regions, one for East and one for West. I would also put WOW in the 2nd Modern MMO era, heavily influenced by EQ and AC2 (few remember this) and it set the standard for the next 10 years.
Speaking of which, some folks would likely argue AC1 was another big influence, though perhaps in looking at early titles we should consider how frequently their core defining features were carried forward in future titles.
So my list would go something like this: (in no particular order, and I could easily sub some other titles in here)
Lineage 1 (my first MMORPG, what can I say?)
DAOC (3 faction PVP, and still one I play on freeshards from time to time)
EVE (probably fails my rule about influencing other games, there's little like it out besides one other title)
EQ (though I never played it, I certainly knew many who did)
UO (this I heard of when it "won" Coaster of the Year from CGW, as they felt it was a terrible game)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Top Five Sci Fi movies of all time: Star Trek 3, Alien 4, Rollerball, 2010, and that Buck Rogers TV episode with the Space Vampire.
Top 5 Halloween Candy of all time: Pal Bubblegum, Black Licorice, Mike's without Ikes, Candycorn, and those brown peanuty things in that orange wrapper.
Top 5 Inventions that changed the World: Betamax, New Coke, Ford Edsel, SWG NGE, and The Houston Texans,
First off, World of Warcraft is a second gen MMO. Without the success of UO and EQ, two MMOs that proved a market existed for subscription-based games, there would be no WoW or Star Wars Galaxies.
Secondly, nearly all modern MMOs owe their GUI design to Asheron's Call and Asheron's Call 2. EVE being a notable exception. Not until Elder Scrolls Online do we see a significant shift in UI design.
Frankly there is WoW and then the rest of the bunch. Or perhaps it is better to state Blizzard instead of WoW as they did the exact same thing in RTS, Hack&Slash and now even CCG.
I agree with your write-up, but not your conclusion. EQ was important as it was the first Western game that had market penetration. UO, Meridian 59 and NWN were the beginning of the west's involvement in MMO's, EQ was (as another poster mentioned) the 800 pound gorilla in any other boardroom. WoW place in history is the fact that it took all of the previous elements and made them mainstream, so anyone would want to play, not just gamers.
Sub numbers are just that, numbers. However they do tell a story.
Why? because it shows you that even if a game only had 100K subs in mid 1999, you had 10% of the market. 100K is paltry by today's standards, but important back in 1999.
I posted the charts to mainly show timelines, not just numbers.
Originally posted by remyburke And the author skips Everquest 1 and Dark Age of Camelot, just to get a rise out of people and increase the post count. Well, +1.
Well what exactly did DAoC influence? It was never really that popular, especially not on a global scale. EQ1 was definitely popular in the west but it didn't influence as much as it is credited. It had the diku mud style before WoW, but not in a mass appealing way. It influenced WoW, but in a way that changed all of its systems to appeal to the broader internet audience. It was WoW that was influential, not EQ1.
Seriously dude? What did it influence? seriously...
Lets go with the much beloved GW2 for one.
Warhammer Online... pretty much any MMO that wasn't a full open world style PVP ala UO.
Your argument regarding EQ is absolutely ridiculous. The only thing that differentiated WOW's appeal to the masses from EQ was WOW was based on a well known and extremely popular IP. Also, lest you forget, WOW did not explode in playerbase until 12-18 months after release. Its not like it came on the scene and immediately had 6 million subs that didnt happen until about the time the first expac hit.
I'm getting really REALLY tired of this argument that persists on these forums that popularity is the only measure of quality, success, influence, or anything good about a game.
EQ was by definition the most influential game because it heavily INFLUENCED the WOW designers (by their own admission, watch the video), and consequently every single PVE focused MMO thats been released since.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
I have severe problems with one entry on the list - Fantasy Westward Journey. Even the review didn't say anything about the game. I don't know that this title has ever migrated to other markets. That China developed it's infrastructure and Chinese computer development companies began in the same time frame doesn't show any kind of correlation. According to the article, the driving force in this marketplace seemed to be Korean imports, not FWJ. It was simply developed from a famous Chinese story.
EverQuest is much better choice for a list of Most Influential MMORPGs. It popularized the MMORPG concept in the western hemisphere (and good parts of Europe, Russia and Australia). Without EQ priming the global marketplace (and proving the profitability of the MMORPG concept), there wouldn't any of the other games on this list.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I have to disagree with others here who think SWG was one of the most important mmos. Yes, it was by far my favorite mmo, but I've been searching for its replacement for almost ten years now without finding one. If it was so important someone would have copied it without the Starwars. Only now, a decade later are mmos even trying to offer non-instanced housing, and I have to think it was more of a minecraft influence than SWG.
SWG was the perfect mmo for me, but it was not influential or important in the grand scheme of things. It is just a fading memory without any real successors.
Originally posted by Superman0X I have to disagree with you on UO (because of the reasons you chose). UO was not the game that changed the industry... Everquest was. UO had a very mixed start, and did not have the financials to justify others entering the market. Everquest on the other hand was a smash hit that made investors stand up and take notice... and fund other games like it. Everquest is what caused games like WoW to be made.
He's right. I recall reading an article very long ago where the blizzard guys said they were addicted to EQ and then thought hey why don't we do this!
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Asheron's Call? The only MMO built with a physics engine that is 15 years old. You could truly Dodge every projectile in the game. I would argue that's glaringly important.
Why? because it shows you that even if a game only had 100K subs in mid 1999, you had 10% of the market. 100K is paltry by today's standards, but important back in 1999.
I posted the charts to mainly show timelines, not just numbers.
Interesting numbers with a few surprices. Aion peaked with 4mil subs, crazy but I guess some liked it after all.
But even though numbers are indicators of popularity, they cant really translated into "influence". To find out what influenced what, you would really need to ask all the devs of all the mmorpgs, and possibly using a time machine. Everything here are just educated guesses and opinions, and remember what influenced you is not the same as what influenced game devs.
A noteabout lineage, eq, daoc.. People who played either one of those are probably not able to judge the other, and my reasoningbehind this is.. I played eq, and there would have been no chance I could have spend enough time in lineage or any other game from 99 to 04 to know in any dept what they were about, and still have played eq fully. If those other games had as much to offer as eq, and It sound like they did, I will just never know and that goes both ways I suspect.
A little bomb for the end.. This Meridan 59 thing, is it a game? /tease, I rarely hear anyone speak fondly of it, where are you?
Comments
L1 is shutdown in West only
L1 is Ncsofts biggest money maker in the East - and still sub only
EQ2 fan sites
Are you trolling? FFXI was pretty damn popular at one time, not so much now, but it used to be. It was the first Final Fantasy MMORPG... It was bound to be popular because of that alone. Your friend's guild probably just sucked. If it did as poorly as you make it sound Square Enix wouldn't still be doing expansions and updates for it (not to mention it would most likely be F2P by now).
Smile
Lineage is doing exceptionally well, even better than Lineage 2.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
See Richard? There's the list you should have used.
Accept like others have already mentioned, the author wasn't doing an article on "The Most Important Western MMOs of The First Modern Decade." He was doing "The Most Important MMOs of the First Modern Decade," which includes MMOs from outside the West. Sorry, but if games like Lineage and FFXI hadn't been made the MMO/MMORPG genre as we know it would be vastly different.
Smile
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I could easily say the same about WoW i think WoW is garbage and did more harm than good.regardless of my personal feelings on it as a gamer doesn't change the impact it had on the future of the genre......Most of these games in question helped to shape a genre some more than others.
I honestly believe like many said this was a click bait article.this isn't about how good or bad these games are they launched and had an impact some even genre defining game changers.
Leaving personal experience and favor aside you have to judge the impact of those MMOs not only what they ultimatically contributed to the genre but as well at what time.
A decade for a gamer back then was basicaly your whole childhood.
Winning a discussion is not what it's about. If you could pass insight to someone or learn something from it in return - noone can really loose, can they?
It's not offensive in the least and it's nice to have the first-hand gaming experience of a Korean added to this discussion. The fact is that our gaming and especially MMO histories are very different. And like you, I'm not really interested in the chicken/egg discussion about which dissected feature appeared where first.
Perhaps it's the premise of this article, the global perspective, that is of dubious value. From a investment and financial perspective, it makes some sense to consider the global MMO market and some developers, hoping to gain a foothold in their non-native market do just that. But those are few and honestly, it's much more the Eastern developers attempting to make inroads in the West than the other way around.
I really see it as two industries: each with its own quirks, some of which look incomprehensible to the other side. They draw from different gaming traditions and even cultural traditions. Here in the west we are also heavily influenced by our fantasy and Scifi literature just as I'm sure you are in the East by yours. But they're very different traditions.
We might as well be discussing whether the Pyramids or The Great Wall were more significant achievements
I still say we need two lists with maybe a side discussion about which of the 5 from each list had a more significant crossover influence... and my bet is on WOW, not Lineage.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I think the only thing Lineage and other Asian MMORPG has brought to the table is gold spam in chat and I can't see anything innovative or important in that.
You know MMORPG is really starting to erk me with its NON MMORPG in the game list and troll articles like this one.
Back in the day this site was really cool to visit. Games like AC, UO, EQ, DAOC and AO were always on the front page.
Now its full of single player games and troll articles about how great MMOS are with gold spam in the chat.
Sorry if I offended anyone.
Picking the "5" most "important" MMO's of the first era is an impossible task. Depending on where you lived, depending on what MMO's you played, the answer is going to vary.
I never played EQ, it had no influence on me, in fact I was one of those rare US Lineage 1 players, and it's castle siege design had a large influence on the next MMO's I played including DAOC, Shadowbane, Lineage 2, WOW and eventually EVE.
Notice, they all revolve around territory control for the most part, with WOW being the notable exception, but hey, I fell for the hype being a long time Blizzard supporter with Diablo 1/2, Starcraft and the Warcraft series.
Now as others have said, you could easily separate the lists into regions, one for East and one for West. I would also put WOW in the 2nd Modern MMO era, heavily influenced by EQ and AC2 (few remember this) and it set the standard for the next 10 years.
Speaking of which, some folks would likely argue AC1 was another big influence, though perhaps in looking at early titles we should consider how frequently their core defining features were carried forward in future titles.
So my list would go something like this: (in no particular order, and I could easily sub some other titles in here)
Lineage 1 (my first MMORPG, what can I say?)
DAOC (3 faction PVP, and still one I play on freeshards from time to time)
EVE (probably fails my rule about influencing other games, there's little like it out besides one other title)
EQ (though I never played it, I certainly knew many who did)
UO (this I heard of when it "won" Coaster of the Year from CGW, as they felt it was a terrible game)
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
This is a discussion that cannot be "won", even though dozens of people here will try. Pointless.
/thread
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Other notable articles by the Author.
Top Five Sci Fi movies of all time: Star Trek 3, Alien 4, Rollerball, 2010, and that Buck Rogers TV episode with the Space Vampire.
Top 5 Halloween Candy of all time: Pal Bubblegum, Black Licorice, Mike's without Ikes, Candycorn, and those brown peanuty things in that orange wrapper.
Top 5 Inventions that changed the World: Betamax, New Coke, Ford Edsel, SWG NGE, and The Houston Texans,
First off, World of Warcraft is a second gen MMO. Without the success of UO and EQ, two MMOs that proved a market existed for subscription-based games, there would be no WoW or Star Wars Galaxies.
Secondly, nearly all modern MMOs owe their GUI design to Asheron's Call and Asheron's Call 2. EVE being a notable exception. Not until Elder Scrolls Online do we see a significant shift in UI design.
Or perhaps it is better to state Blizzard instead of WoW as they did the exact same thing in RTS, Hack&Slash and now even CCG.
Poor poor competitors.
Blue,
I agree with your write-up, but not your conclusion. EQ was important as it was the first Western game that had market penetration. UO, Meridian 59 and NWN were the beginning of the west's involvement in MMO's, EQ was (as another poster mentioned) the 800 pound gorilla in any other boardroom. WoW place in history is the fact that it took all of the previous elements and made them mainstream, so anyone would want to play, not just gamers.
Sub numbers are just that, numbers. However they do tell a story.
1million + subs
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-1.png
up to 1 million subs
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png
up to 130K subs
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-3.png
up to 50K subs
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-4.png
This is the important one though, total subs
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/TotalSubs.png
Why? because it shows you that even if a game only had 100K subs in mid 1999, you had 10% of the market. 100K is paltry by today's standards, but important back in 1999.
I posted the charts to mainly show timelines, not just numbers.
^^^This x2
Seriously dude? What did it influence? seriously...
Lets go with the much beloved GW2 for one.
Warhammer Online... pretty much any MMO that wasn't a full open world style PVP ala UO.
Your argument regarding EQ is absolutely ridiculous. The only thing that differentiated WOW's appeal to the masses from EQ was WOW was based on a well known and extremely popular IP. Also, lest you forget, WOW did not explode in playerbase until 12-18 months after release. Its not like it came on the scene and immediately had 6 million subs that didnt happen until about the time the first expac hit.
I'm getting really REALLY tired of this argument that persists on these forums that popularity is the only measure of quality, success, influence, or anything good about a game.
EQ was by definition the most influential game because it heavily INFLUENCED the WOW designers (by their own admission, watch the video), and consequently every single PVE focused MMO thats been released since.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I have severe problems with one entry on the list - Fantasy Westward Journey. Even the review didn't say anything about the game. I don't know that this title has ever migrated to other markets. That China developed it's infrastructure and Chinese computer development companies began in the same time frame doesn't show any kind of correlation. According to the article, the driving force in this marketplace seemed to be Korean imports, not FWJ. It was simply developed from a famous Chinese story.
EverQuest is much better choice for a list of Most Influential MMORPGs. It popularized the MMORPG concept in the western hemisphere (and good parts of Europe, Russia and Australia). Without EQ priming the global marketplace (and proving the profitability of the MMORPG concept), there wouldn't any of the other games on this list.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I have to disagree with others here who think SWG was one of the most important mmos. Yes, it was by far my favorite mmo, but I've been searching for its replacement for almost ten years now without finding one. If it was so important someone would have copied it without the Starwars. Only now, a decade later are mmos even trying to offer non-instanced housing, and I have to think it was more of a minecraft influence than SWG.
SWG was the perfect mmo for me, but it was not influential or important in the grand scheme of things. It is just a fading memory without any real successors.
He's right. I recall reading an article very long ago where the blizzard guys said they were addicted to EQ and then thought hey why don't we do this!
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Interesting numbers with a few surprices. Aion peaked with 4mil subs, crazy but I guess some liked it after all.
But even though numbers are indicators of popularity, they cant really translated into "influence". To find out what influenced what, you would really need to ask all the devs of all the mmorpgs, and possibly using a time machine. Everything here are just educated guesses and opinions, and remember what influenced you is not the same as what influenced game devs.
A noteabout lineage, eq, daoc.. People who played either one of those are probably not able to judge the other, and my reasoningbehind this is.. I played eq, and there would have been no chance I could have spend enough time in lineage or any other game from 99 to 04 to know in any dept what they were about, and still have played eq fully. If those other games had as much to offer as eq, and It sound like they did, I will just never know and that goes both ways I suspect.
A little bomb for the end.. This Meridan 59 thing, is it a game? /tease, I rarely hear anyone speak fondly of it, where are you?
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0