So let me get this straight... the gw2 fanbois are defending nickel and dime tactics that are contradictory to what anet originally claimed their model would entail?
Cool...
It is free content.
Which companies put out free content?
The only caveat is that you need to log in.
Surely beats out paying $15/mo or $15 just to play your characters again.
It also beats out being in a game where power is sold in the store.
Not only that, part of it is unlocked for everyone.
More, the other part is still accessible.
What games let your friend that has all the content unlocked take you that didn't pay to unlock it with them and experience that same content?
One of the most fair systems out there for the players and developers and people that don't play the game bash it.
Is it jealousy?
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
The complaint is legit though. It doesn't have anything to do with being casual though.
If someone stopped playing 2 or 3 months after launch, and they just came back today, they would essentially have to be paying for an "expansion" if they want to experience the new content.
Now, let's say a year or two from now, someone starts playing again. All those updates require 200 gems each, and all that money will start accumulating to an even higher price.
This is assuming the player had no knowledge of the free updates if they logged in, which is very plausible for those who stopped playing shortly after launch.
The complaint is legit though. It doesn't have anything to do with being casual though.
If someone stopped playing 2 or 3 months after launch, and they just came back today, they would essentially have to be paying for an "expansion" if they want to experience the new content.
Now, let's say a year or two from now, someone starts playing again. All those updates require 200 gems each, and all that money will start accumulating to an even higher price.
This is assuming the player had no knowledge of the free updates if they logged in, which is very plausible for those who stopped playing shortly after launch.
That is assuming Anet won;t introduce discounts, promotions or bulk sales.
That also ignores that part of the content is available for everyone (some would say the most important and biggest part).
Finally it ignores the fact people can be taxied to the content they missed if they don't want to pay for it.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
This game was marketed as the game you play between games. I seen the devs say it many times on panels. I have kept the game installed just because of this. I have spent money here and there but this move upsets me. Guess this is the point I uninstall and walk away. They get no more cash from me.
Just do a few dungeon runs a day (I mean like, literally an hour's worth) and you will have enough for 200 gems in a matter of a couple of days. If you can't be bothered to do that you probably aren't a customer of value to them anyways since you don't really play the game. If you can't be bothered to log in once every 2 weeks (literally, like...just hit the login button, don't even have to load the game lol) then you probably don't care enough about the game to warrant playing it again anyways.
Besides, the only things you miss out on are the instanced personal story stuff. You can do that with people who have it unlocked already too if you really want to see it without paying gems. For a game that only made you pay one time to play it, I would say that is pretty generous.
Originally posted by Nefarion84 That is right, if you've been away from Guild Wars 2 for a bit, dont bother going back because if you didn't log in during their events they will now be charging you 200 gems per piece of content that you missed. If yur a casual who is going back, congratulations, you are now a second class citizen in Tyria. How does it feel?
you only had to log in for a second on a specific day and you would get all the stuff for free!, if you felt you couldnt log in for a mere second to unlock free content then dont pretend that 200 gems is a big issue. Its not like any game company, besides offering free content, have to spoon feed it to players as well. All the free content was there, you probably didnt want to log in and missed it.
EDIT: just wanted to add that even though GW2 is my top mmorpg i still play it very casually, and still managed to log in for a short time every time they released an episode to unlock for free.
The complaint is legit though. It doesn't have anything to do with being casual though.
If someone stopped playing 2 or 3 months after launch, and they just came back today, they would essentially have to be paying for an "expansion" if they want to experience the new content.
Now, let's say a year or two from now, someone starts playing again. All those updates require 200 gems each, and all that money will start accumulating to an even higher price.
This is assuming the player had no knowledge of the free updates if they logged in, which is very plausible for those who stopped playing shortly after launch.
That is assuming Anet won;t introduce discounts, promotions or bulk sales.
That also ignores that part of the content is available for everyone (some would say the most important and biggest part).
Finally it ignores the fact people can be taxied to the content they missed if they don't want to pay for it.
This change only affects players who don't play GW2 (ones that do play GW2 gets the content unlocked for free)
A person who didn't play GW2 but is considering coming back to it or starting it likely won't overlook this just because of the possibility of discounts and promotoins.
A person who didn't play GW2 but is making the decision whether to start/resume again or not won't overlook this just because other updates to the game ("part of the content") are available for free
A person who didn't play GW2 but is considering coming back likely won't have his decision particularly swayed by the fact that s/he can get into the content by asking people who get it for free (and thus don't have to put up with that demeaning hassle) just because they were there.
From the perspective of someone who DOES play GW2, it might not seem like a big deal. They already like GW2. They aren't on the fence. I don't see how this helps Arenanet's revenue when those people are getting this for free anyways.
From the perspective of someone on the fence, though, who's weighing whether or not s/he should play GW2 or come back to it, these things can do a lot to tip one to the "Nah, I think I won't bother" side. Again, for this to be a profitable business decision, profit from sales of this content needs to exceed the profit that would have been gotten from people on the fence that this business model tipped to the other side, and I'd be kinda surprised if that ends up being the case.
Remember how B2P was going to be so great because you could take a break and then come back to see all the changes A-net made? Oh wait, most of what they did has been non-permanent updates. Okay, now you don't have to be playing at the time, you just have to buy to play them, again.
Remember how B2P was going to be so great because you could take a break and then come back to see all the changes A-net made? Oh wait, most of what they did has been non-permanent updates. Okay, now you don't have to be playing at the time, you just have to buy to play them, again.
you dont have to buy anything just get a friend that have it unlocked and go with him do the stuff you missed
and its only personal story with few achievements, anything else that was added (new zones, skills, items, armor and weapon sets) are unlocked even if you dont have it
I was seriously considering to purchase this game. But after reading all of the fans of the game state the obvious without anything concrete to remain playing, I have have decided to give this game a pass. Obviously the business model the company had for the game has changed since release. In order for ArenaNet to get a return on their development costs, they've had to make changes. Originally their plan before the game was released was to have copies of the game and shop items continue to sell as they continued to develop new content.
This year the game has gone on sale four times. The price of the game was reduced and then half price sale is on now. Right now is the lowest you can purchase the game until Nov 9, 2014. That tells me they aren't doing too well especially given they merged everyone into a mega-server earlier this year. Coupled with charging for content missed tells me the company, ArenaNet is in trouble. If things went as planned from release they wouldn't have to do that. The problem is that less people are playing the game than the company anticipated. Some refer to this as a failed game.
What I personally see is that the company wants people to play their game how they want the people to play it. They don't open it up to everyone's play style. The MMO with the most players is the one that allows players to play with many different ways and many things to do. This game has things locked down where you can't do things as freely as you can with other MMOs in the genre. This game was given the highest marks of any MMO released in the last few years by the media yet people aren't flocking to play it because it doesn't have a lot of things to do as other MMOs available today. It also lacks a lot of features that are in other MMOs by default.
I was seriously considering to purchase this game. But after reading all of the fans of the game state the obvious without anything concrete to remain playing, I have have decided to give this game a pass. Obviously the business model the company had for the game has changed since release. In order for ArenaNet to get a return on their development costs, they've had to make changes. Originally their plan before the game was released was to have copies of the game and shop items continue to sell as they continued to develop new content.
This year the game has gone on sale four times. The price of the game was reduced and then half price sale is on now. Right now is the lowest you can purchase the game until Nov 9, 2014. That tells me they aren't doing too well especially given they merged everyone into a mega-server earlier this year. Coupled with charging for content missed tells me the company, ArenaNet is in trouble. If things went as planned from release they wouldn't have to do that. The problem is that less people are playing the game than the company anticipated. Some refer to this as a failed game.
What I personally see is that the company wants people to play their game how they want the people to play it. They don't open it up to everyone's play style. The MMO with the most players is the one that allows players to play with many different ways and many things to do. This game has things locked down where you can't do things as freely as you can with other MMOs in the genre. This game was given the highest marks of any MMO released in the last few years by the media yet people aren't flocking to play it because it doesn't have a lot of things to do as other MMOs available today. It also lacks a lot of features that are in other MMOs by default.
Yes discounts are a sign of a game not doing well. Let's judge the game by this cause no other company does it.
Oh wait they all do. Hmm....
Well what does Anet do different then from all other companies? Oh, I know. They keep on hiring more people while other companies keep on reducing the numbers.
I was seriously considering to purchase this game. But after reading all of the fans of the game state the obvious without anything concrete to remain playing, I have have decided to give this game a pass. Obviously the business model the company had for the game has changed since release. In order for ArenaNet to get a return on their development costs, they've had to make changes. Originally their plan before the game was released was to have copies of the game and shop items continue to sell as they continued to develop new content.
This year the game has gone on sale four times. The price of the game was reduced and then half price sale is on now. Right now is the lowest you can purchase the game until Nov 9, 2014. That tells me they aren't doing too well especially given they merged everyone into a mega-server earlier this year. Coupled with charging for content missed tells me the company, ArenaNet is in trouble. If things went as planned from release they wouldn't have to do that. The problem is that less people are playing the game than the company anticipated. Some refer to this as a failed game.
What I personally see is that the company wants people to play their game how they want the people to play it. They don't open it up to everyone's play style. The MMO with the most players is the one that allows players to play with many different ways and many things to do. This game has things locked down where you can't do things as freely as you can with other MMOs in the genre. This game was given the highest marks of any MMO released in the last few years by the media yet people aren't flocking to play it because it doesn't have a lot of things to do as other MMOs available today. It also lacks a lot of features that are in other MMOs by default.
Then you should stop writing right there, on green sentence imo. Seems you know alot about the game without been a costumer. Im not a GW2 player but i was and i didnt saw where you get all that doom info and plz dont tell it was from random upset players post around this forum.
You pick up every single detail to try prove the ANet is in troubles with GW2 , but whitout any valid prove imo.
And somewhere you mentined the "MMO with most players" and then lack of "features by default", so yeah, its easy to see what you trying to do.
Usually when I stop playing a game I take it off my computer so logging in every two weeks is out for me. Ah well just pay I guess if I do decide to play.
When they made the game with usual classes, that was first hint its going to be worse than GW 1. Guardian is just sorta paladin with a different name and mesmer is not a mesmer anymore. And when they introduced that "super farm" dungeon Fractals, it was a second hint that GW 2 will be a worse game than GW 1. Now when I tried to came back to GW 2 I found it went totally crazy. So I think that you are right, its weird what they are doing, but right from the beginning it was a weird game anyway.
Played: Lineage 2,Guild Wars 1 and 2, Age of Conan, Ragnarok Online, LOTRO, World of Warcraft, League of Legends, EvE online Tried: KAL Online, Face of Mankind, ROSE online Playing: CS:GO
I was seriously considering to purchase this game. But after reading all of the fans of the game state the obvious without anything concrete to remain playing, I have have decided to give this game a pass. Obviously the business model the company had for the game has changed since release. In order for ArenaNet to get a return on their development costs, they've had to make changes. Originally their plan before the game was released was to have copies of the game and shop items continue to sell as they continued to develop new content.
This year the game has gone on sale four times. The price of the game was reduced and then half price sale is on now. Right now is the lowest you can purchase the game until Nov 9, 2014. That tells me they aren't doing too well especially given they merged everyone into a mega-server earlier this year. Coupled with charging for content missed tells me the company, ArenaNet is in trouble. If things went as planned from release they wouldn't have to do that. The problem is that less people are playing the game than the company anticipated. Some refer to this as a failed game.
What I personally see is that the company wants people to play their game how they want the people to play it. They don't open it up to everyone's play style. The MMO with the most players is the one that allows players to play with many different ways and many things to do. This game has things locked down where you can't do things as freely as you can with other MMOs in the genre. This game was given the highest marks of any MMO released in the last few years by the media yet people aren't flocking to play it because it doesn't have a lot of things to do as other MMOs available today. It also lacks a lot of features that are in other MMOs by default.
NCSoft just went on a firing spree of their teams and employees and not one person from Anet lost a job. You need to do your research, because that alone says the game is doing fantastic.
^^ @prepared, people moaning about a game in z forum is not a fan.
Facts : you can play for free and buy open access when you want it. your not paying a sub - think about that.
- You can access the content free by simply joining with soneone in game who had the content. You can also get the content free by unlocking it when it's released. You can get the content free by buying with gold. You can buy the content for cash (guess what - your not paying a sub remember)
What else do you want - delivered in a pretty box to your door with a Cherry on top.
If the game had a sub and it was good people would play it, this noise is a nonsense.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom ^^ @prepared, people moaning about a game in z forum is not a fan.
Facts : you can play for free and buy open access when you want it. your not paying a sub - think about that.
- You can access the content free by simply joining with soneone in game who had the content. You can also get the content free by unlocking it when it's released. You can get the content free by buying with gold. You can buy the content for cash (guess what - your not paying a sub remember)
What else do you want - delivered in a pretty box to your door with a Cherry on top.
If the game had a sub and it was good people would play it, this noise is a nonsense.
Its like the 5th post that I read in this thread alone that sounds something along those lines.
Point is ... the haters will never "get it" because they are too stubborn to see it.
The @prepared guy will never know what he's missing, because for the price Gw2 is at atm, it is a crime to miss out on that bang for the buck. Even if they didn't change much the past 2 years (which i disagree with but opinions, opinions, opinions), the core game is there. And it's worth every cent.
Its time to move on and close this thread. People posting here are not willing to "get it". They would rather talk about global warming and various other stuff and then come back and tell people how wrong they are and how their opinion is the only right one. Oh and ... anet is robbing you. Yes this one is a gem. Doomsayers
P.S: What's next? End of the world on 9th November because Gw2 won't be on sale anymore? xD
They at so obsessed with negatives they can't see the light. If they had the ability they should simply ask themselves the following question,
would I prefer a sub model I would I prefer a cash shop with generous options to get all co tent free? Thru can't they at too busy wondering where the half glass of milk went.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Many other games generate content that stays in the game once released.
The only reason to do it the way they did is so they could put money on it and get the people who forever reason weren't there to pay.
Anet knows that a few will get mad and say screw it, but what do they lose....a sub?
They already got the box price....anything else is just bonus.
There is no reason for this content to be temporary other than to make money in a game where one of the biggest selling points was pay once....enjoy forever.
Comments
It is free content.
Which companies put out free content?
The only caveat is that you need to log in.
Surely beats out paying $15/mo or $15 just to play your characters again.
It also beats out being in a game where power is sold in the store.
Not only that, part of it is unlocked for everyone.
More, the other part is still accessible.
What games let your friend that has all the content unlocked take you that didn't pay to unlock it with them and experience that same content?
One of the most fair systems out there for the players and developers and people that don't play the game bash it.
Is it jealousy?
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
The complaint is legit though. It doesn't have anything to do with being casual though.
If someone stopped playing 2 or 3 months after launch, and they just came back today, they would essentially have to be paying for an "expansion" if they want to experience the new content.
Now, let's say a year or two from now, someone starts playing again. All those updates require 200 gems each, and all that money will start accumulating to an even higher price.
This is assuming the player had no knowledge of the free updates if they logged in, which is very plausible for those who stopped playing shortly after launch.
That is assuming Anet won;t introduce discounts, promotions or bulk sales.
That also ignores that part of the content is available for everyone (some would say the most important and biggest part).
Finally it ignores the fact people can be taxied to the content they missed if they don't want to pay for it.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
F2P games are trash.
GW2 is an ok online single player game but it's a crappy MMORPG, so why bother?
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
Just do a few dungeon runs a day (I mean like, literally an hour's worth) and you will have enough for 200 gems in a matter of a couple of days. If you can't be bothered to do that you probably aren't a customer of value to them anyways since you don't really play the game. If you can't be bothered to log in once every 2 weeks (literally, like...just hit the login button, don't even have to load the game lol) then you probably don't care enough about the game to warrant playing it again anyways.
Besides, the only things you miss out on are the instanced personal story stuff. You can do that with people who have it unlocked already too if you really want to see it without paying gems. For a game that only made you pay one time to play it, I would say that is pretty generous.
Yep. Good thing GW2 is B2P.
In regards to your other comment: Hard to argue with someone with such a narrow minded view.
you only had to log in for a second on a specific day and you would get all the stuff for free!, if you felt you couldnt log in for a mere second to unlock free content then dont pretend that 200 gems is a big issue. Its not like any game company, besides offering free content, have to spoon feed it to players as well. All the free content was there, you probably didnt want to log in and missed it.
EDIT: just wanted to add that even though GW2 is my top mmorpg i still play it very casually, and still managed to log in for a short time every time they released an episode to unlock for free.
This change only affects players who don't play GW2 (ones that do play GW2 gets the content unlocked for free)
A person who didn't play GW2 but is considering coming back to it or starting it likely won't overlook this just because of the possibility of discounts and promotoins.
A person who didn't play GW2 but is making the decision whether to start/resume again or not won't overlook this just because other updates to the game ("part of the content") are available for free
A person who didn't play GW2 but is considering coming back likely won't have his decision particularly swayed by the fact that s/he can get into the content by asking people who get it for free (and thus don't have to put up with that demeaning hassle) just because they were there.
From the perspective of someone who DOES play GW2, it might not seem like a big deal. They already like GW2. They aren't on the fence. I don't see how this helps Arenanet's revenue when those people are getting this for free anyways.
From the perspective of someone on the fence, though, who's weighing whether or not s/he should play GW2 or come back to it, these things can do a lot to tip one to the "Nah, I think I won't bother" side. Again, for this to be a profitable business decision, profit from sales of this content needs to exceed the profit that would have been gotten from people on the fence that this business model tipped to the other side, and I'd be kinda surprised if that ends up being the case.
That's funny because I don't ever play the game by myself. Seems it's the #1 MMORPG at the moment.
Horses for courses. It is the single most disappointing turd I have ever had the misfortune to play. That is how opinions work.
Remember how B2P was going to be so great because you could take a break and then come back to see all the changes A-net made? Oh wait, most of what they did has been non-permanent updates. Okay, now you don't have to be playing at the time, you just have to buy to play them, again.
you dont have to buy anything just get a friend that have it unlocked and go with him do the stuff you missed
and its only personal story with few achievements, anything else that was added (new zones, skills, items, armor and weapon sets) are unlocked even if you dont have it
I was seriously considering to purchase this game. But after reading all of the fans of the game state the obvious without anything concrete to remain playing, I have have decided to give this game a pass. Obviously the business model the company had for the game has changed since release. In order for ArenaNet to get a return on their development costs, they've had to make changes. Originally their plan before the game was released was to have copies of the game and shop items continue to sell as they continued to develop new content.
This year the game has gone on sale four times. The price of the game was reduced and then half price sale is on now. Right now is the lowest you can purchase the game until Nov 9, 2014. That tells me they aren't doing too well especially given they merged everyone into a mega-server earlier this year. Coupled with charging for content missed tells me the company, ArenaNet is in trouble. If things went as planned from release they wouldn't have to do that. The problem is that less people are playing the game than the company anticipated. Some refer to this as a failed game.
What I personally see is that the company wants people to play their game how they want the people to play it. They don't open it up to everyone's play style. The MMO with the most players is the one that allows players to play with many different ways and many things to do. This game has things locked down where you can't do things as freely as you can with other MMOs in the genre. This game was given the highest marks of any MMO released in the last few years by the media yet people aren't flocking to play it because it doesn't have a lot of things to do as other MMOs available today. It also lacks a lot of features that are in other MMOs by default.
Yes discounts are a sign of a game not doing well. Let's judge the game by this cause no other company does it.
Oh wait they all do. Hmm....
Well what does Anet do different then from all other companies? Oh, I know. They keep on hiring more people while other companies keep on reducing the numbers.
Then you should stop writing right there, on green sentence imo. Seems you know alot about the game without been a costumer. Im not a GW2 player but i was and i didnt saw where you get all that doom info and plz dont tell it was from random upset players post around this forum.
You pick up every single detail to try prove the ANet is in troubles with GW2 , but whitout any valid prove imo.
And somewhere you mentined the "MMO with most players" and then lack of "features by default", so yeah, its easy to see what you trying to do.
Played: Lineage 2,Guild Wars 1 and 2, Age of Conan, Ragnarok Online, LOTRO, World of Warcraft, League of Legends, EvE online
Tried: KAL Online, Face of Mankind, ROSE online
Playing: CS:GO
NCSoft just went on a firing spree of their teams and employees and not one person from Anet lost a job. You need to do your research, because that alone says the game is doing fantastic.
Facts : you can play for free and buy open access when you want it. your not paying a sub - think about that.
- You can access the content free by simply joining with soneone in game who had the content. You can also get the content free by unlocking it when it's released. You can get the content free by buying with gold. You can buy the content for cash (guess what - your not paying a sub remember)
What else do you want - delivered in a pretty box to your door with a Cherry on top.
If the game had a sub and it was good people would play it, this noise is a nonsense.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Its like the 5th post that I read in this thread alone that sounds something along those lines.
Point is ... the haters will never "get it" because they are too stubborn to see it.
The @prepared guy will never know what he's missing, because for the price Gw2 is at atm, it is a crime to miss out on that bang for the buck. Even if they didn't change much the past 2 years (which i disagree with but opinions, opinions, opinions), the core game is there. And it's worth every cent.
Its time to move on and close this thread. People posting here are not willing to "get it". They would rather talk about global warming and various other stuff and then come back and tell people how wrong they are and how their opinion is the only right one. Oh and ... anet is robbing you. Yes this one is a gem.
Doomsayers
P.S: What's next? End of the world on 9th November because Gw2 won't be on sale anymore? xD
would I prefer a sub model I would I prefer a cash shop with generous options to get all co tent free? Thru can't they at too busy wondering where the half glass of milk went.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Many other games generate content that stays in the game once released.
The only reason to do it the way they did is so they could put money on it and get the people who forever reason weren't there to pay.
Anet knows that a few will get mad and say screw it, but what do they lose....a sub?
They already got the box price....anything else is just bonus.
There is no reason for this content to be temporary other than to make money in a game where one of the biggest selling points was pay once....enjoy forever.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D