just wanted to post 1 correction to someones post.
Wow doesn't have something to cater to everyones taste, it only has things to offer to casual gamers who aren't interested in competitive gameplay.
Top guilds compete for world firsts and progression status - some are even sponsored. Though you would be correct that there's currently no progression raid available at this time.
Arenas and Rated BG's are also competitive. Actually, it's one group competing against another group, the literal definition of competition. If ranked PvP isn't considered competitive in your eyes, then DotA2, LoL, SC, Counter Strike, et al are also not competitive.
To address your 2 points.
1. World 1sts aren't competitive because its not doing something other people cant do its just trying to do something before another.
2. BGs are only competitive in the sense of a fps with no building. The reason for this is that the non optional inspect skill means that you cant compete by making a better build to play with because if you beat people, they will just inspect you and steal your build. So there is no competitive aspect in character building in wow which is stupid because that's the fundamental of a rpg. If you want a competitive game without levelling and character building, then you or I can play halo or any other clone shooter.
So to reiterate, bgs are only competitive in the sense of a clone shooter where character building doesnt matter and isn't competitive at all due to the non optional inspec. Thus I or any competitive rpg player cant play wow for a competitive mmo rpg because character building doesnt matter. Hence if I want to play a game where the only competitive aspect is button bashing or twitch skills then it definitely wouldn't be an rpg, I can just go play halo 5 when its out or counterstike source.
So I agree counterstrike is competitive but its a clone shooter where building doesnt matter, since wow is a rpg, I expect more, I expect character building to be fundamental.
Since it isn't in wow, WoW is not a competitive rpg. you could argue its a competitive clone shooter like counterstrike where all that matters is speed of button mashing and reflexes but not intellect or skill in building a character of your own which is what rpgs are all about.
I'm not sure you're using the word "competitive" the way the rest of the world does. Building your own character is a great RPG feature and I agree that I wish it were more robust in WoW. Though I'm not sure what it has to do with competition. But when you say something like:
"1. World 1sts aren't competitive because its not doing something other people cant do its just trying to do something before another."
You've gotta be trolling because that's what racing is. Trying to get to the finish line before someone else. All in all, I don't really understand what you're talking about.
Is he actually trying to argue that it's not competitive when everyone is on an equal footing with gear?
Isn't that the entire definition of competitive? Nascar regulates what cars/parts/weights must be in all cars. Is it not competitive?
Here I was naively believing that competitive was a skill related factor. If you have 2 teams with the same setup, then it's a competition. When you have someone in "better" gear than the other, it isn't competitive.
I genuinely think this convo has gone overboard.
Why do we allow new accounts to get us all riled up? They'll just create another new account to agree with them....
just wanted to post 1 correction to someones post.
Wow doesn't have something to cater to everyones taste, it only has things to offer to casual gamers who aren't interested in competitive gameplay.
Top guilds compete for world firsts and progression status - some are even sponsored. Though you would be correct that there's currently no progression raid available at this time.
Arenas and Rated BG's are also competitive. Actually, it's one group competing against another group, the literal definition of competition. If ranked PvP isn't considered competitive in your eyes, then DotA2, LoL, SC, Counter Strike, et al are also not competitive.
To address your 2 points.
1. World 1sts aren't competitive because its not doing something other people cant do its just trying to do something before another.
2. BGs are only competitive in the sense of a fps with no building. The reason for this is that the non optional inspect skill means that you cant compete by making a better build to play with because if you beat people, they will just inspect you and steal your build. So there is no competitive aspect in character building in wow which is stupid because that's the fundamental of a rpg. If you want a competitive game without levelling and character building, then you or I can play halo or any other clone shooter.
So to reiterate, bgs are only competitive in the sense of a clone shooter where character building doesnt matter and isn't competitive at all due to the non optional inspec. Thus I or any competitive rpg player cant play wow for a competitive mmo rpg because character building doesnt matter. Hence if I want to play a game where the only competitive aspect is button bashing or twitch skills then it definitely wouldn't be an rpg, I can just go play halo 5 when its out or counterstike source.
So I agree counterstrike is competitive but its a clone shooter where building doesnt matter, since wow is a rpg, I expect more, I expect character building to be fundamental.
Since it isn't in wow, WoW is not a competitive rpg. you could argue its a competitive clone shooter like counterstrike where all that matters is speed of button mashing and reflexes but not intellect or skill in building a character of your own which is what rpgs are all about.
I'm not sure you're using the word "competitive" the way the rest of the world does. Building your own character is a great RPG feature and I agree that I wish it were more robust in WoW. Though I'm not sure what it has to do with competition. But when you say something like:
"1. World 1sts aren't competitive because its not doing something other people cant do its just trying to do something before another."
You've gotta be trolling because that's what racing is. Trying to get to the finish line before someone else. All in all, I don't really understand what you're talking about.
ok to address your 2 points again.
1. Rpgs are role playing games, they are all about building your own custom character or group of characters. Since wow does away with any competitive aspect in that with a non optional inspect skill which lets others steal your build if you made a better one with more skill. That makes the only aspect of competition twitch gaming and if I wanted to compete on just twitch gaming skill, I would play counterstrike source.
Thus wow is not a competitive rpg and does not cater to people like me who want a competitive rpg. At best, you could say that the only competitive aspect of it is that of a clone shooter and there are plenty of them out already.
2. World 1sts aren't competitive at all, its the same as getting an achievement, its purely cosmetic and it also cant be repeated so are you seriously trying to argue that the competitive aspect of wow is getting a world 1st everytime an expansion comes out . LOL you might as well go get an achievement for collecting herbs or some crap and say you are competitive.
Is he actually trying to argue that it's not competitive when everyone is on an equal footing with gear?
Isn't that the entire definition of competitive? Nascar regulates what cars/parts/weights must be in all cars. Is it not competitive?
Here I was naively believing that competitive was a skill related factor. If you have 2 teams with the same setup, then it's a competition. When you have someone in "better" gear than the other, it isn't competitive.
I genuinely think this convo has gone overboard.
Why do we allow new accounts to get us all riled up? They'll just create another new account to agree with them....
I never once mentioned gear but since you brought it up, the wow gearing system doesn't allow for competition either. There is only 1 bets set and everyone has to get it. There is no character building aspect to it.
Much like making your skill build in wow, the gear you wear doesn't add to your overall character build therefore it is not competitive. Its just a time sink.
Im not trying to piss you off or anything, I am just telling you why I left wow. It was a competitive rpg back when people couldn't inspect your build, when it lost that (amongst other things), the only competitive aspect left for me was twitch gaming skill like in any other clone shooter like halo.
So when I want to play a clone shooter, I pick them but I chose wow cuz I wanted a competitive rpg which it was once upon a time but not anymore, at best its a clone shooter now since your character builds don't matter with people inspecting without permission to steal better builds.
edit inserted here
Btw you seem to be saying competition exists when everyone is on the same footing, does that mean you want everyone to have exactly the same builds and gear so that the only competition they do is with twitch gaming like in a game like halo???
Doesn't that destroy the whole point o f a role playing game which is and always has been about creating your own character.
The level playing field is that everyone has to work for what they get but 1 person being more skilled and competitive than another and making a superior build or gear combination (gear part has always been impossible in wow, skill tree build became impossible after skill inspect introduced) does not remove competition.
Character building (including gear, skill, prof etc combinations) is the very aspect of competition which is different in an rpg compared to a clone shooter like halo or gears of war. So I think you are missing the point as to what competition is in an rpg as opposed to 1st person shooter without gear or builds.
Is he actually trying to argue that it's not competitive when everyone is on an equal footing with gear?
Isn't that the entire definition of competitive? Nascar regulates what cars/parts/weights must be in all cars. Is it not competitive?
Here I was naively believing that competitive was a skill related factor. If you have 2 teams with the same setup, then it's a competition. When you have someone in "better" gear than the other, it isn't competitive.
I genuinely think this convo has gone overboard.
Why do we allow new accounts to get us all riled up? They'll just create another new account to agree with them....
I never once mentioned gear but since you brought it up, the wow gearing system doesn't allow for competition either. There is only 1 bets set and everyone has to get it. There is no character building aspect to it.
Much like making your skill build in wow, the gear you wear doesn't add to your overall character build therefore it is not competitive. Its just a time sink.
Im not trying to piss you off or anything, I am just telling you why I left wow. It was a competitive rpg back when people couldn't inspect your build, when it lost that (amongst other things), the only competitive aspect left for me was twitch gaming skill like in any other clone shooter like halo.
So when I want to play a clone shooter, I pick them but I chose wow cuz I wanted a competitive rpg which it was once upon a time but not anymore, at best its a clone shooter now since your character builds don't matter with people inspecting without permission to steal better builds.
edit inserted here
Btw you seem to be saying competition exists when everyone is on the same footing, does that mean you want everyone to have exactly the same builds and gear so that the only competition they do is with twitch gaming like in a game like halo???
Doesn't that destroy the whole point o f a role playing game which is and always has been about creating your own character.
The level playing field is that everyone has to work for what they get but 1 person being more skilled and competitive than another and making a superior build or gear combination (gear part has always been impossible in wow, skill tree build became impossible after skill inspect introduced) does not remove competition.
That is the very aspect of competition which is different in an rpg compared to a clone shooter like halo or gears of war. So I think you are missing the point as to what competition is in an rpg as opposed to 1st person shooter without gear or builds.
Still think ur overthinking the build/inspect thing mate. True, the builds and gears thar work better arent much variable. But saying that drains the competition.... Still feels wrong. What you want is to feel the "best" for spending hours analizing and training different skills and by luck or not, happening to be a build that actually works.... That doesnt make it competitive... I mean, it does, but sooner or later, other people would catch up to you and your build and kick ur ass if they are better PVP'rs.... Just think that making the competitive all about having a "ultra-special-secret-build-recipe" is really impossible these days. There are only so many options on how to gear/skill up your character. In any game... In anything in life...
I considered coming back to wow but have done at every expansion since wotlk and never done so.
Personally, I think there are many mmos better than wow out there now or coming out soon and the fact that people can buy a level 90 boost really puts me off.
Buying a boost to 90 then playing 10 levels worth of oldschool content with quests which consist of go to this location and kill mob or collect item are boring now in my opinion.
I want to see improved ai where mobs actually have motives and quests aren't in the same location or the same quests available to all.
To my understanding, there are a couple of games coming out in 2015 which boast this, id rather wait.
I understand it's opinion, but where are all of these mmos that are better than wow? I haven't found one.
Sometimes the only "secret recipe" is the group you PVP with. Different people, join together, that have that awesome party quemistry and actually help you pwn the fck out of everyone. Now that's hard to find :P
Hes absoluelty right. WoW used in his development process and all expansions high profile scientists to make people addicted to the game. Ofc AA has nowhere the same budget as Blizzard, thats why it has so many shitty elements implemented and they cant get the echo from those scientist to tell them that that feature wont make the kiddys addicted.
Another shady business of Blizzard is to bring the raidcontent way later then the release of the game. And probably its on a day where you need to resub to get to the new content. Its not about your amusement, its about how you get stuck into this game and spend money.
Yes, wow was designed to suck out your life and your pocked.
Umm, what?
Wasn't AA touted as the not for casuals,but for people working together in groups and ultra-time consuming?
Now you are trying to suggest one of the most casual friendly games on the market is more of a commitment than Archeage? I find this rather absurd.
Edit: this thread is thick with MMORPG users posting with their alts.
I considered coming back to wow but have done at every expansion since wotlk and never done so.
Personally, I think there are many mmos better than wow out there now or coming out soon and the fact that people can buy a level 90 boost really puts me off.
Buying a boost to 90 then playing 10 levels worth of oldschool content with quests which consist of go to this location and kill mob or collect item are boring now in my opinion.
I want to see improved ai where mobs actually have motives and quests aren't in the same location or the same quests available to all.
To my understanding, there are a couple of games coming out in 2015 which boast this, id rather wait.
I understand it's opinion, but where are all of these mmos that are better than wow? I haven't found one.
Don't bother. He's most likely posting from an alt account.
Edit: why does MMORPG allow people to create alt accounts? We all know it happens yet its clearly against their TOS. Bill? Do you guys even bother doing IP checks on the registered accounts?
Actually it does make the build competitive and it is the very part of a competitive rpg which makes it different from a competitive clone shooter.
People have tro compete in building their character b4 they play them, it adds another dimension to the competition and it includes gear, skills, professions combinations etc in building.
If you remove the importance of all that building, you are effectively playing a game where everyone is the same, ie a clone shooter like halo or gears of war not an rpg.
Also it takes skill to build well which is why people find it so appealing and also why it matters so much in a game, it is as important if not more important than reflex skills in twitch gaming in games like halo where everyone is the same.
Its a fundamental and that's why a non optional inspect skill takes away all the competition in building and thus turns a game like wow into a clone shooter effectively.
By the way it does make it competitive because the whole aspect about building is that less skilled players cant do what you did just like they cant copy your twitch gaming skill. The only way they could is if they can replicate your work which most cant as they are at varying degrees of skill or inspect you and copy which breaks the game.
For example, elitist jerks used to use spreadsheets to calculate builds as many people do before the inspect skill could view builds. So some people could actually work out things like theoretical max dps, statistical discrepancy, the gameplay mechanics.
I think another poster said something about exclusive and non exclusive multipliers, diminishing returns, the rate of diminishing returnsm break points and other things.
A person who can factor all of those things into his build will make a better build due to skill which makes a fundamental difference and it also allows for variation in builds.
All of thses things were removed by wow allowing inspect of skill trees because you can spedn your time learning gameplay mechanics and working on your build, spreadsheet modelling for weeks if you are able and then someone who cant do even basic maths can just copy your work with inspect.
just wanted to post 1 correction to someones post.
Wow doesn't have something to cater to everyones taste, it only has things to offer to casual gamers who aren't interested in competitive gameplay.
Top guilds compete for world firsts and progression status - some are even sponsored. Though you would be correct that there's currently no progression raid available at this time.
Arenas and Rated BG's are also competitive. Actually, it's one group competing against another group, the literal definition of competition. If ranked PvP isn't considered competitive in your eyes, then DotA2, LoL, SC, Counter Strike, et al are also not competitive.
1. World 1sts aren't competitive because its not doing something other people cant do its just trying to do something before another.
Facts called, they would like to have a word with you.
I am taking it slow still waiting for the best games from the dark souls devs.
bloodborne will keep me busy for 6 months and no subscription!
I love prepare to die (the developers) they have filled the void left by blizzard and bioware when they moved away from their direction in making adult games.
Im very happy they are filling that gap for mass market adult gamers and think they will become the new blizzard and bioware in time.
Actually it does make the build competitive and it is the very part of a competitive rpg which makes it different from a competitive clone shooter.
People have tro compete in building their character b4 they play them, it adds another dimension to the competition and it includes gear, skills, professions combinations etc in building.
If you remove the importance of all that building, you are effectively playing a game where everyone is the same, ie a clone shooter like halo or gears of war not an rpg.
Also it takes skill to build well which is why people find it so appealing and also why it matters so much in a game, it is as important if not more important than reflex skills in twitch gaming in games like halo where everyone is the same.
Its a fundamental and that's why a non optional inspect skill takes away all the competition in building and thus turns a game like wow into a clone shooter effectively.
By the way it does make it competitive because the whole aspect about building is that less skilled players cant do what you did just like they cant copy your twitch gaming skill. The only way they could is if they can replicate your work which most cant as they are at varying degrees of skill or inspect you and copy which breaks the game.
For example, elitist jerks used to use spreadsheets to calculate builds as many people do before the inspect skill could view builds. So some people could actually work out things like theoretical max dps, statistical discrepancy, the gameplay mechanics.
I think another poster said something about exclusive and non exclusive multipliers, diminishing returns, the rate of diminishing returnsm break points and other things.
A person who can factor all of those things into his build will make a better build due to skill which makes a fundamental difference and it also allows for variation in builds.
All of thses things were removed by wow allowing inspect of skill trees because you can spedn your time learning gameplay mechanics and working on your build, spreadsheet modelling for weeks if you are able and then someone who cant do even basic maths can just copy your work with inspect.
Again, i understand the builds are simple these days. But like i said, I never played a game where there weren't alot of easy to google-builds, including top notch guide tutorials on how to get them. And i'm in this business for some years now. Your idea is very pretty, but to go deep in it, you'd have to eliminate all of the internet and ability to share information.
I remember the non-inspect days, and honestly, I don't think that was soooooooo much more competitive. Sorry, but you could always easily go and search for stuff or tutorials, etc... Now, instead of that, you just inspect. TRUE, its been made easier, i'll give you that, but you still always had acess to that stuff. (maybe you had to loose a few more minutes to search for it, but still... After a few weeks of end-gaming, top builds were always available online to those that wanted to use them.
I am taking it slow still waiting for the best games from the dark souls devs.
bloodborne will keep me busy for 6 months and no subscription!
I love prepare to die (the developers) they have filled the void left by blizzard and bioware when they moved away from their direction in making adult games.
Im very happy they are filling that gap for mass market adult gamers and think they will become the new blizzard and bioware in time.
I guess you're trolling but you bring up "adult gamers" now when before, in this thread, you were complaining about content catered to casuals.
ALL of the "adults" I know, myself included, have become more and more casual as we gain more and more responsibilities. So either you are a kid worrying about adult gamers, or you have far more free time then the rest of us "adults".
If an mmo wants me as a gamer they better have plenty of casual content. I can't raid every time I log in, nor do I want to anymore.
Actually it does make the build competitive and it is the very part of a competitive rpg which makes it different from a competitive clone shooter.
People have tro compete in building their character b4 they play them, it adds another dimension to the competition and it includes gear, skills, professions combinations etc in building.
If you remove the importance of all that building, you are effectively playing a game where everyone is the same, ie a clone shooter like halo or gears of war not an rpg.
Also it takes skill to build well which is why people find it so appealing and also why it matters so much in a game, it is as important if not more important than reflex skills in twitch gaming in games like halo where everyone is the same.
Its a fundamental and that's why a non optional inspect skill takes away all the competition in building and thus turns a game like wow into a clone shooter effectively.
By the way it does make it competitive because the whole aspect about building is that less skilled players cant do what you did just like they cant copy your twitch gaming skill. The only way they could is if they can replicate your work which most cant as they are at varying degrees of skill or inspect you and copy which breaks the game.
For example, elitist jerks used to use spreadsheets to calculate builds as many people do before the inspect skill could view builds. So some people could actually work out things like theoretical max dps, statistical discrepancy, the gameplay mechanics.
I think another poster said something about exclusive and non exclusive multipliers, diminishing returns, the rate of diminishing returnsm break points and other things.
A person who can factor all of those things into his build will make a better build due to skill which makes a fundamental difference and it also allows for variation in builds.
All of thses things were removed by wow allowing inspect of skill trees because you can spedn your time learning gameplay mechanics and working on your build, spreadsheet modelling for weeks if you are able and then someone who cant do even basic maths can just copy your work with inspect.
Again, i understand the builds are simple these days. But like i said, I never played a game where there weren't alot of easy to google-builds, including top notch guide tutorials on how to get them. And i'm in this business for some years now. Your idea is very pretty, but to go deep in it, you'd have to eliminate all of the internet and ability to share information.
I remember the non-inspect days, and honestly, I don't think that was soooooooo much more competitive. Sorry, but you could always easily go and search for stuff or tutorials, etc... Now, instead of that, you just inspect. TRUE, its been made easier, i'll give you that, but you still always had acess to that stuff. (maybe you had to loose a few more minutes to search for it, but still... After a few weeks of end-gaming, top builds were always available online to those that wanted to use them.
couple of points.
1. You don't have to eliminate any of the internet to make it work because builds on the internet are a dime a dozen and if you don't know how to build yourself, you wont be able to know which are the good and which are the best and which are worthless. Not only that but builds on the internet represent 1 moment in time, they don't have real time updates to show changes with developments and thus there is a lot of dead, obsolete info out there. Long story short, just removing the inspect feature of making it optional with a choice of how much you allow to be inspected would fix the whole building process.
The argument of yours about needing to remove the whole internet is fallacious and you know it. Its like me playing say magic the gathering and be able to build decks using hypergeometric distributions, sure you could look it up on the internet if you cant inspect my build but would you know to look for hypergeometric distributions and would you even understand it if you did or if you looked up someone elses pre made build not only would it be difficult, you wouldn't be able to judge it.
So like I said, rpgs are all about character building because its a role playing game not a clone shooter, that's what makes it a rpg and not a clone shooter. If you remove the competitive aspect of character building, it might as well not exist or you can just admit the game is anti competition. In either of those 2 cases, it ruins any competitive rpg although you can rebrand the game as a competitive clone shooter like counterstrike but that's not what im looking for when I want an rpg.
2. The only way you would notice a difference in the non inspect days is if you were a good builder like me and consistently beat people at gaming because of it. Not everyone can be exceptional but that doesn't mean we should take away the pontential for people to learn how to be by making a non optional inspect skill.
Btw it was soooooo much more competitive in the olden days because your build mattered and people wouldn't be able to copy your building skill.
I would just like to mention that if you think it actually makes no difference, then I am sure you wouldn't mind inspect being removed entirely instead of being made optional and multi tiered since according to you, it makes no difference.
The fact that some people are adamant to keep it means it makes a massive difference and the same goes for people who are adamant to make it optional. It does matter massively and if it didn't, people wouldn't be opposed to its complete removal.
Actually it does make the build competitive and it is the very part of a competitive rpg which makes it different from a competitive clone shooter.
People have tro compete in building their character b4 they play them, it adds another dimension to the competition and it includes gear, skills, professions combinations etc in building.
If you remove the importance of all that building, you are effectively playing a game where everyone is the same, ie a clone shooter like halo or gears of war not an rpg.
Also it takes skill to build well which is why people find it so appealing and also why it matters so much in a game, it is as important if not more important than reflex skills in twitch gaming in games like halo where everyone is the same.
Its a fundamental and that's why a non optional inspect skill takes away all the competition in building and thus turns a game like wow into a clone shooter effectively.
By the way it does make it competitive because the whole aspect about building is that less skilled players cant do what you did just like they cant copy your twitch gaming skill. The only way they could is if they can replicate your work which most cant as they are at varying degrees of skill or inspect you and copy which breaks the game.
For example, elitist jerks used to use spreadsheets to calculate builds as many people do before the inspect skill could view builds. So some people could actually work out things like theoretical max dps, statistical discrepancy, the gameplay mechanics.
I think another poster said something about exclusive and non exclusive multipliers, diminishing returns, the rate of diminishing returnsm break points and other things.
A person who can factor all of those things into his build will make a better build due to skill which makes a fundamental difference and it also allows for variation in builds.
All of thses things were removed by wow allowing inspect of skill trees because you can spedn your time learning gameplay mechanics and working on your build, spreadsheet modelling for weeks if you are able and then someone who cant do even basic maths can just copy your work with inspect.
Again, i understand the builds are simple these days. But like i said, I never played a game where there weren't alot of easy to google-builds, including top notch guide tutorials on how to get them. And i'm in this business for some years now. Your idea is very pretty, but to go deep in it, you'd have to eliminate all of the internet and ability to share information.
I remember the non-inspect days, and honestly, I don't think that was soooooooo much more competitive. Sorry, but you could always easily go and search for stuff or tutorials, etc... Now, instead of that, you just inspect. TRUE, its been made easier, i'll give you that, but you still always had acess to that stuff. (maybe you had to loose a few more minutes to search for it, but still... After a few weeks of end-gaming, top builds were always available online to those that wanted to use them.
Btw it was soooooo much more competitive in the olden days because your build mattered and people wouldn't be able to copy your building skill.
Are you pretending that the internet didn't exist, and that people copied off eachother by inspecting them, and not by googling the best EJ build?
I am taking it slow still waiting for the best games from the dark souls devs.
bloodborne will keep me busy for 6 months and no subscription!
I love prepare to die (the developers) they have filled the void left by blizzard and bioware when they moved away from their direction in making adult games.
Im very happy they are filling that gap for mass market adult gamers and think they will become the new blizzard and bioware in time.
I guess you're trolling but you bring up "adult gamers" now when before, in this thread, you were complaining about content catered to casuals.
ALL of the "adults" I know, myself included, have become more and more casual as we gain more and more responsibilities. So either you are a kid worrying about adult gamers, or you have far more free time then the rest of us "adults".
If an mmo wants me as a gamer they better have plenty of casual content. I can't raid every time I log in, nor do I want to anymore.
Don't try to troll me man, you know as well as I do adult games means being able to do things that kids or less educated people cant do. It means adult content.
If you are a super casual gamer, good for you, I don't care, whats that got to do with me, go play pokemon.
Actually it does make the build competitive and it is the very part of a competitive rpg which makes it different from a competitive clone shooter.
People have tro compete in building their character b4 they play them, it adds another dimension to the competition and it includes gear, skills, professions combinations etc in building.
If you remove the importance of all that building, you are effectively playing a game where everyone is the same, ie a clone shooter like halo or gears of war not an rpg.
Also it takes skill to build well which is why people find it so appealing and also why it matters so much in a game, it is as important if not more important than reflex skills in twitch gaming in games like halo where everyone is the same.
Its a fundamental and that's why a non optional inspect skill takes away all the competition in building and thus turns a game like wow into a clone shooter effectively.
By the way it does make it competitive because the whole aspect about building is that less skilled players cant do what you did just like they cant copy your twitch gaming skill. The only way they could is if they can replicate your work which most cant as they are at varying degrees of skill or inspect you and copy which breaks the game.
For example, elitist jerks used to use spreadsheets to calculate builds as many people do before the inspect skill could view builds. So some people could actually work out things like theoretical max dps, statistical discrepancy, the gameplay mechanics.
I think another poster said something about exclusive and non exclusive multipliers, diminishing returns, the rate of diminishing returnsm break points and other things.
A person who can factor all of those things into his build will make a better build due to skill which makes a fundamental difference and it also allows for variation in builds.
All of thses things were removed by wow allowing inspect of skill trees because you can spedn your time learning gameplay mechanics and working on your build, spreadsheet modelling for weeks if you are able and then someone who cant do even basic maths can just copy your work with inspect.
Again, i understand the builds are simple these days. But like i said, I never played a game where there weren't alot of easy to google-builds, including top notch guide tutorials on how to get them. And i'm in this business for some years now. Your idea is very pretty, but to go deep in it, you'd have to eliminate all of the internet and ability to share information.
I remember the non-inspect days, and honestly, I don't think that was soooooooo much more competitive. Sorry, but you could always easily go and search for stuff or tutorials, etc... Now, instead of that, you just inspect. TRUE, its been made easier, i'll give you that, but you still always had acess to that stuff. (maybe you had to loose a few more minutes to search for it, but still... After a few weeks of end-gaming, top builds were always available online to those that wanted to use them.
Btw it was soooooo much more competitive in the olden days because your build mattered and people wouldn't be able to copy your building skill.
Are you pretending that the internet didn't exist, and that people copied off eachother by inspecting them, and not by googling the best EJ build?
Think for a second before you speak.
You could use the internet to search for a build but unless you knew the gameplay mechanics such as diminishing returns, break points, exclusive, non exclusive multipliers, damage formulae etc, your searching on the internet will 999 out of a 1000 times result in a sub optimal build.
This was the case in wow b4 inspect skill was allowed and has been the case in every game that I have played without a mandatory inspect skill.
Try to read my posts before you talk, its like you are trying to copy a hypergeometric distribution based build in some games without you even knowing what that is, what to look for or how to judge it. All you will get is an obsolete suboptimal build by searching the internet for stuff like that, to be up to date and get the correct optimisations you need to do it yourself or copy someone you know is better than you ie with a non optional inspect skill.
No point repeating this stuff over and over t you guys, just re read my posts if you have questions and try to remember how back in the day people got their multipliers are mixed up when trying to copy builds form the internet and ended up with sub optimal builds. Ofcourse, the only way you could know that is if you were capable of doing the calculations yourself which most of you aren't and why some of you love being able to inspect people who beat them repetitively.
Actually it does make the build competitive and it is the very part of a competitive rpg which makes it different from a competitive clone shooter.
People have tro compete in building their character b4 they play them, it adds another dimension to the competition and it includes gear, skills, professions combinations etc in building.
If you remove the importance of all that building, you are effectively playing a game where everyone is the same, ie a clone shooter like halo or gears of war not an rpg.
Also it takes skill to build well which is why people find it so appealing and also why it matters so much in a game, it is as important if not more important than reflex skills in twitch gaming in games like halo where everyone is the same.
Its a fundamental and that's why a non optional inspect skill takes away all the competition in building and thus turns a game like wow into a clone shooter effectively.
By the way it does make it competitive because the whole aspect about building is that less skilled players cant do what you did just like they cant copy your twitch gaming skill. The only way they could is if they can replicate your work which most cant as they are at varying degrees of skill or inspect you and copy which breaks the game.
For example, elitist jerks used to use spreadsheets to calculate builds as many people do before the inspect skill could view builds. So some people could actually work out things like theoretical max dps, statistical discrepancy, the gameplay mechanics.
I think another poster said something about exclusive and non exclusive multipliers, diminishing returns, the rate of diminishing returnsm break points and other things.
A person who can factor all of those things into his build will make a better build due to skill which makes a fundamental difference and it also allows for variation in builds.
All of thses things were removed by wow allowing inspect of skill trees because you can spedn your time learning gameplay mechanics and working on your build, spreadsheet modelling for weeks if you are able and then someone who cant do even basic maths can just copy your work with inspect.
Again, i understand the builds are simple these days. But like i said, I never played a game where there weren't alot of easy to google-builds, including top notch guide tutorials on how to get them. And i'm in this business for some years now. Your idea is very pretty, but to go deep in it, you'd have to eliminate all of the internet and ability to share information.
I remember the non-inspect days, and honestly, I don't think that was soooooooo much more competitive. Sorry, but you could always easily go and search for stuff or tutorials, etc... Now, instead of that, you just inspect. TRUE, its been made easier, i'll give you that, but you still always had acess to that stuff. (maybe you had to loose a few more minutes to search for it, but still... After a few weeks of end-gaming, top builds were always available online to those that wanted to use them.
Btw it was soooooo much more competitive in the olden days because your build mattered and people wouldn't be able to copy your building skill.
Are you pretending that the internet didn't exist, and that people copied off eachother by inspecting them, and not by googling the best EJ build?
Think for a second before you speak.
You could use the internet to search for a build but unless you knew the gameplay mechanics such as diminishing returns, break points, exclusive, non exclusive multipliers, damage formulae etc, your searching on the internet will 999 out of a 1000 times result in a sub optimal build.
Take your own advice my good sir...
EJ did all those things for you....all you had to do is google "Best ret pally PVE build"...or "best holy pally PVP build" etc etc etc....and you would get exactly optimal results...If anything, EJ gives you better results than any charecter inspect ever could...but something tells me you already know this, but are just trying to pass it off...
Stop tryign to shoehorn in a compliant, its glaringly obvious. Also, trying to belittle the people you are replying to with comments such as "I bet you do't even know what that is", doesn't make you any less wrong.
Actually it does make the build competitive and it is the very part of a competitive rpg which makes it different from a competitive clone shooter.
People have tro compete in building their character b4 they play them, it adds another dimension to the competition and it includes gear, skills, professions combinations etc in building.
If you remove the importance of all that building, you are effectively playing a game where everyone is the same, ie a clone shooter like halo or gears of war not an rpg.
Also it takes skill to build well which is why people find it so appealing and also why it matters so much in a game, it is as important if not more important than reflex skills in twitch gaming in games like halo where everyone is the same.
Its a fundamental and that's why a non optional inspect skill takes away all the competition in building and thus turns a game like wow into a clone shooter effectively.
By the way it does make it competitive because the whole aspect about building is that less skilled players cant do what you did just like they cant copy your twitch gaming skill. The only way they could is if they can replicate your work which most cant as they are at varying degrees of skill or inspect you and copy which breaks the game.
For example, elitist jerks used to use spreadsheets to calculate builds as many people do before the inspect skill could view builds. So some people could actually work out things like theoretical max dps, statistical discrepancy, the gameplay mechanics.
I think another poster said something about exclusive and non exclusive multipliers, diminishing returns, the rate of diminishing returnsm break points and other things.
A person who can factor all of those things into his build will make a better build due to skill which makes a fundamental difference and it also allows for variation in builds.
All of thses things were removed by wow allowing inspect of skill trees because you can spedn your time learning gameplay mechanics and working on your build, spreadsheet modelling for weeks if you are able and then someone who cant do even basic maths can just copy your work with inspect.
Again, i understand the builds are simple these days. But like i said, I never played a game where there weren't alot of easy to google-builds, including top notch guide tutorials on how to get them. And i'm in this business for some years now. Your idea is very pretty, but to go deep in it, you'd have to eliminate all of the internet and ability to share information.
I remember the non-inspect days, and honestly, I don't think that was soooooooo much more competitive. Sorry, but you could always easily go and search for stuff or tutorials, etc... Now, instead of that, you just inspect. TRUE, its been made easier, i'll give you that, but you still always had acess to that stuff. (maybe you had to loose a few more minutes to search for it, but still... After a few weeks of end-gaming, top builds were always available online to those that wanted to use them.
Btw it was soooooo much more competitive in the olden days because your build mattered and people wouldn't be able to copy your building skill.
Are you pretending that the internet didn't exist, and that people copied off eachother by inspecting them, and not by googling the best EJ build?
Think for a second before you speak.
You could use the internet to search for a build but unless you knew the gameplay mechanics such as diminishing returns, break points, exclusive, non exclusive multipliers, damage formulae etc, your searching on the internet will 999 out of a 1000 times result in a sub optimal build.
Take your own advice my good sir...
EJ did all those things for you....all you had to do is google "Best ret pally PVE build"...or "best holy pally PVP build" etc etc etc....and you would get exactly optimal results...
Stop tryign to shoehorn in a compliant, its glaringly obvious. Also, trying to belittle the people you are replying to with comments such as "I bet you do't even know what that is", doesn't make you any less wrong.
Wrong, there was some useful info on eltist jerks though and I did use their spreadsheet initially as a base template.
Like I said, people who cant do these things look at 1 spreadsheet or build an think wow, this is comprehensive. They just don't know any better, they cant even look at the formulae they used in their spreadsheet and say if its right or wrong.
Btw rofl, if you did google what you said to google, you would get junk. utter rubbish.
Actually it does make the build competitive and it is the very part of a competitive rpg which makes it different from a competitive clone shooter.
People have tro compete in building their character b4 they play them, it adds another dimension to the competition and it includes gear, skills, professions combinations etc in building.
If you remove the importance of all that building, you are effectively playing a game where everyone is the same, ie a clone shooter like halo or gears of war not an rpg.
Also it takes skill to build well which is why people find it so appealing and also why it matters so much in a game, it is as important if not more important than reflex skills in twitch gaming in games like halo where everyone is the same.
Its a fundamental and that's why a non optional inspect skill takes away all the competition in building and thus turns a game like wow into a clone shooter effectively.
By the way it does make it competitive because the whole aspect about building is that less skilled players cant do what you did just like they cant copy your twitch gaming skill. The only way they could is if they can replicate your work which most cant as they are at varying degrees of skill or inspect you and copy which breaks the game.
For example, elitist jerks used to use spreadsheets to calculate builds as many people do before the inspect skill could view builds. So some people could actually work out things like theoretical max dps, statistical discrepancy, the gameplay mechanics.
I think another poster said something about exclusive and non exclusive multipliers, diminishing returns, the rate of diminishing returnsm break points and other things.
A person who can factor all of those things into his build will make a better build due to skill which makes a fundamental difference and it also allows for variation in builds.
All of thses things were removed by wow allowing inspect of skill trees because you can spedn your time learning gameplay mechanics and working on your build, spreadsheet modelling for weeks if you are able and then someone who cant do even basic maths can just copy your work with inspect.
Again, i understand the builds are simple these days. But like i said, I never played a game where there weren't alot of easy to google-builds, including top notch guide tutorials on how to get them. And i'm in this business for some years now. Your idea is very pretty, but to go deep in it, you'd have to eliminate all of the internet and ability to share information.
I remember the non-inspect days, and honestly, I don't think that was soooooooo much more competitive. Sorry, but you could always easily go and search for stuff or tutorials, etc... Now, instead of that, you just inspect. TRUE, its been made easier, i'll give you that, but you still always had acess to that stuff. (maybe you had to loose a few more minutes to search for it, but still... After a few weeks of end-gaming, top builds were always available online to those that wanted to use them.
Btw it was soooooo much more competitive in the olden days because your build mattered and people wouldn't be able to copy your building skill.
Are you pretending that the internet didn't exist, and that people copied off eachother by inspecting them, and not by googling the best EJ build?
Think for a second before you speak.
You could use the internet to search for a build but unless you knew the gameplay mechanics such as diminishing returns, break points, exclusive, non exclusive multipliers, damage formulae etc, your searching on the internet will 999 out of a 1000 times result in a sub optimal build.
Take your own advice my good sir...
EJ did all those things for you....all you had to do is google "Best ret pally PVE build"...or "best holy pally PVP build" etc etc etc....and you would get exactly optimal results...
Stop tryign to shoehorn in a compliant, its glaringly obvious. Also, trying to belittle the people you are replying to with comments such as "I bet you do't even know what that is", doesn't make you any less wrong.
Wrong, there was some useful info on eltist jerks though and I did use their spreadsheet initially as a base template.
Like I said, people who cant do these things look at 1 spreadsheet or build an think wow, this is comprehensive. They just don't know any better, they cant even look at the formulae they used in their spreadsheet and say if its right or wrong.
Btw rofl, if you did google what you said to google, you would get junk. utter rubbish.
Your argument is that a plain "inspect" of someone gives you more information around optimal builds for any scenerio than EJ...you sir, are wrong.
actulally, at 100, you still got tons of shitload to do in WoD, the best part is that the garrison is there for you to do, also recruit the best follower you could, etc2
most of my guildmates are either above 97 or 100, and they all still busy everyday in WoD,
and do not worry, i promise you this is probably the best expansion since TBC,
i was never this crazy playing 10 hrs a day, not even Cataclysm did this to me, and i don't even last a week with MoP,,
Comments
I'm not sure you're using the word "competitive" the way the rest of the world does. Building your own character is a great RPG feature and I agree that I wish it were more robust in WoW. Though I'm not sure what it has to do with competition. But when you say something like:
"1. World 1sts aren't competitive because its not doing something other people cant do its just trying to do something before another."
You've gotta be trolling because that's what racing is. Trying to get to the finish line before someone else. All in all, I don't really understand what you're talking about.
I don't understand.
Is he actually trying to argue that it's not competitive when everyone is on an equal footing with gear?
Isn't that the entire definition of competitive? Nascar regulates what cars/parts/weights must be in all cars. Is it not competitive?
Here I was naively believing that competitive was a skill related factor. If you have 2 teams with the same setup, then it's a competition. When you have someone in "better" gear than the other, it isn't competitive.
I genuinely think this convo has gone overboard.
Why do we allow new accounts to get us all riled up? They'll just create another new account to agree with them....
ok to address your 2 points again.
1. Rpgs are role playing games, they are all about building your own custom character or group of characters. Since wow does away with any competitive aspect in that with a non optional inspect skill which lets others steal your build if you made a better one with more skill. That makes the only aspect of competition twitch gaming and if I wanted to compete on just twitch gaming skill, I would play counterstrike source.
Thus wow is not a competitive rpg and does not cater to people like me who want a competitive rpg. At best, you could say that the only competitive aspect of it is that of a clone shooter and there are plenty of them out already.
2. World 1sts aren't competitive at all, its the same as getting an achievement, its purely cosmetic and it also cant be repeated so are you seriously trying to argue that the competitive aspect of wow is getting a world 1st everytime an expansion comes out . LOL you might as well go get an achievement for collecting herbs or some crap and say you are competitive.
I never once mentioned gear but since you brought it up, the wow gearing system doesn't allow for competition either. There is only 1 bets set and everyone has to get it. There is no character building aspect to it.
Much like making your skill build in wow, the gear you wear doesn't add to your overall character build therefore it is not competitive. Its just a time sink.
Im not trying to piss you off or anything, I am just telling you why I left wow. It was a competitive rpg back when people couldn't inspect your build, when it lost that (amongst other things), the only competitive aspect left for me was twitch gaming skill like in any other clone shooter like halo.
So when I want to play a clone shooter, I pick them but I chose wow cuz I wanted a competitive rpg which it was once upon a time but not anymore, at best its a clone shooter now since your character builds don't matter with people inspecting without permission to steal better builds.
edit inserted here
Btw you seem to be saying competition exists when everyone is on the same footing, does that mean you want everyone to have exactly the same builds and gear so that the only competition they do is with twitch gaming like in a game like halo???
Doesn't that destroy the whole point o f a role playing game which is and always has been about creating your own character.
The level playing field is that everyone has to work for what they get but 1 person being more skilled and competitive than another and making a superior build or gear combination (gear part has always been impossible in wow, skill tree build became impossible after skill inspect introduced) does not remove competition.
Character building (including gear, skill, prof etc combinations) is the very aspect of competition which is different in an rpg compared to a clone shooter like halo or gears of war. So I think you are missing the point as to what competition is in an rpg as opposed to 1st person shooter without gear or builds.
Still think ur overthinking the build/inspect thing mate. True, the builds and gears thar work better arent much variable. But saying that drains the competition.... Still feels wrong. What you want is to feel the "best" for spending hours analizing and training different skills and by luck or not, happening to be a build that actually works.... That doesnt make it competitive... I mean, it does, but sooner or later, other people would catch up to you and your build and kick ur ass if they are better PVP'rs.... Just think that making the competitive all about having a "ultra-special-secret-build-recipe" is really impossible these days. There are only so many options on how to gear/skill up your character. In any game... In anything in life...
I understand it's opinion, but where are all of these mmos that are better than wow? I haven't found one.
Umm, what?
Wasn't AA touted as the not for casuals,but for people working together in groups and ultra-time consuming?
Now you are trying to suggest one of the most casual friendly games on the market is more of a commitment than Archeage? I find this rather absurd.
Edit: this thread is thick with MMORPG users posting with their alts.
Don't bother. He's most likely posting from an alt account.
Edit: why does MMORPG allow people to create alt accounts? We all know it happens yet its clearly against their TOS. Bill? Do you guys even bother doing IP checks on the registered accounts?
Actually it does make the build competitive and it is the very part of a competitive rpg which makes it different from a competitive clone shooter.
People have tro compete in building their character b4 they play them, it adds another dimension to the competition and it includes gear, skills, professions combinations etc in building.
If you remove the importance of all that building, you are effectively playing a game where everyone is the same, ie a clone shooter like halo or gears of war not an rpg.
Also it takes skill to build well which is why people find it so appealing and also why it matters so much in a game, it is as important if not more important than reflex skills in twitch gaming in games like halo where everyone is the same.
Its a fundamental and that's why a non optional inspect skill takes away all the competition in building and thus turns a game like wow into a clone shooter effectively.
By the way it does make it competitive because the whole aspect about building is that less skilled players cant do what you did just like they cant copy your twitch gaming skill. The only way they could is if they can replicate your work which most cant as they are at varying degrees of skill or inspect you and copy which breaks the game.
For example, elitist jerks used to use spreadsheets to calculate builds as many people do before the inspect skill could view builds. So some people could actually work out things like theoretical max dps, statistical discrepancy, the gameplay mechanics.
I think another poster said something about exclusive and non exclusive multipliers, diminishing returns, the rate of diminishing returnsm break points and other things.
A person who can factor all of those things into his build will make a better build due to skill which makes a fundamental difference and it also allows for variation in builds.
All of thses things were removed by wow allowing inspect of skill trees because you can spedn your time learning gameplay mechanics and working on your build, spreadsheet modelling for weeks if you are able and then someone who cant do even basic maths can just copy your work with inspect.
Facts called, they would like to have a word with you.
I am taking it slow still waiting for the best games from the dark souls devs.
bloodborne will keep me busy for 6 months and no subscription!
I love prepare to die (the developers) they have filled the void left by blizzard and bioware when they moved away from their direction in making adult games.
Im very happy they are filling that gap for mass market adult gamers and think they will become the new blizzard and bioware in time.
Again, i understand the builds are simple these days. But like i said, I never played a game where there weren't alot of easy to google-builds, including top notch guide tutorials on how to get them. And i'm in this business for some years now. Your idea is very pretty, but to go deep in it, you'd have to eliminate all of the internet and ability to share information.
I remember the non-inspect days, and honestly, I don't think that was soooooooo much more competitive. Sorry, but you could always easily go and search for stuff or tutorials, etc... Now, instead of that, you just inspect. TRUE, its been made easier, i'll give you that, but you still always had acess to that stuff. (maybe you had to loose a few more minutes to search for it, but still... After a few weeks of end-gaming, top builds were always available online to those that wanted to use them.
I guess you're trolling but you bring up "adult gamers" now when before, in this thread, you were complaining about content catered to casuals.
ALL of the "adults" I know, myself included, have become more and more casual as we gain more and more responsibilities. So either you are a kid worrying about adult gamers, or you have far more free time then the rest of us "adults".
If an mmo wants me as a gamer they better have plenty of casual content. I can't raid every time I log in, nor do I want to anymore.
couple of points.
1. You don't have to eliminate any of the internet to make it work because builds on the internet are a dime a dozen and if you don't know how to build yourself, you wont be able to know which are the good and which are the best and which are worthless. Not only that but builds on the internet represent 1 moment in time, they don't have real time updates to show changes with developments and thus there is a lot of dead, obsolete info out there. Long story short, just removing the inspect feature of making it optional with a choice of how much you allow to be inspected would fix the whole building process.
The argument of yours about needing to remove the whole internet is fallacious and you know it. Its like me playing say magic the gathering and be able to build decks using hypergeometric distributions, sure you could look it up on the internet if you cant inspect my build but would you know to look for hypergeometric distributions and would you even understand it if you did or if you looked up someone elses pre made build not only would it be difficult, you wouldn't be able to judge it.
So like I said, rpgs are all about character building because its a role playing game not a clone shooter, that's what makes it a rpg and not a clone shooter. If you remove the competitive aspect of character building, it might as well not exist or you can just admit the game is anti competition. In either of those 2 cases, it ruins any competitive rpg although you can rebrand the game as a competitive clone shooter like counterstrike but that's not what im looking for when I want an rpg.
2. The only way you would notice a difference in the non inspect days is if you were a good builder like me and consistently beat people at gaming because of it. Not everyone can be exceptional but that doesn't mean we should take away the pontential for people to learn how to be by making a non optional inspect skill.
Btw it was soooooo much more competitive in the olden days because your build mattered and people wouldn't be able to copy your building skill.
I would just like to mention that if you think it actually makes no difference, then I am sure you wouldn't mind inspect being removed entirely instead of being made optional and multi tiered since according to you, it makes no difference.
The fact that some people are adamant to keep it means it makes a massive difference and the same goes for people who are adamant to make it optional. It does matter massively and if it didn't, people wouldn't be opposed to its complete removal.
Are you pretending that the internet didn't exist, and that people copied off eachother by inspecting them, and not by googling the best EJ build?
Don't try to troll me man, you know as well as I do adult games means being able to do things that kids or less educated people cant do. It means adult content.
If you are a super casual gamer, good for you, I don't care, whats that got to do with me, go play pokemon.
Think for a second before you speak.
You could use the internet to search for a build but unless you knew the gameplay mechanics such as diminishing returns, break points, exclusive, non exclusive multipliers, damage formulae etc, your searching on the internet will 999 out of a 1000 times result in a sub optimal build.
This was the case in wow b4 inspect skill was allowed and has been the case in every game that I have played without a mandatory inspect skill.
Try to read my posts before you talk, its like you are trying to copy a hypergeometric distribution based build in some games without you even knowing what that is, what to look for or how to judge it. All you will get is an obsolete suboptimal build by searching the internet for stuff like that, to be up to date and get the correct optimisations you need to do it yourself or copy someone you know is better than you ie with a non optional inspect skill.
No point repeating this stuff over and over t you guys, just re read my posts if you have questions and try to remember how back in the day people got their multipliers are mixed up when trying to copy builds form the internet and ended up with sub optimal builds. Ofcourse, the only way you could know that is if you were capable of doing the calculations yourself which most of you aren't and why some of you love being able to inspect people who beat them repetitively.
Take your own advice my good sir...
EJ did all those things for you....all you had to do is google "Best ret pally PVE build"...or "best holy pally PVP build" etc etc etc....and you would get exactly optimal results...If anything, EJ gives you better results than any charecter inspect ever could...but something tells me you already know this, but are just trying to pass it off...
Stop tryign to shoehorn in a compliant, its glaringly obvious. Also, trying to belittle the people you are replying to with comments such as "I bet you do't even know what that is", doesn't make you any less wrong.
Wrong, there was some useful info on eltist jerks though and I did use their spreadsheet initially as a base template.
Like I said, people who cant do these things look at 1 spreadsheet or build an think wow, this is comprehensive. They just don't know any better, they cant even look at the formulae they used in their spreadsheet and say if its right or wrong.
Btw rofl, if you did google what you said to google, you would get junk. utter rubbish.
Your argument is that a plain "inspect" of someone gives you more information around optimal builds for any scenerio than EJ...you sir, are wrong.
actulally, at 100, you still got tons of shitload to do in WoD, the best part is that the garrison is there for you to do, also recruit the best follower you could, etc2
most of my guildmates are either above 97 or 100, and they all still busy everyday in WoD,
and do not worry, i promise you this is probably the best expansion since TBC,
i was never this crazy playing 10 hrs a day, not even Cataclysm did this to me, and i don't even last a week with MoP,,
So What Now?