a sandbox world people want to live in. What is so hard about that ?
1997 Ultima Online showed how to do it.
It is not that it is hard, it is that it is not profitable enough. And the gaming industry these days is all about maximizing profitability and corruption. Hence why #GamergGate was created.
a sandbox world people want to live in. What is so hard about that ?
1997 Ultima Online showed how to do it.
It is not that it is hard, it is that it is not profitable enough. And the gaming industry these days is all about maximizing profitability and corruption. Hence why #GamergGate was created.
Number one reason why sandbox won't work is that it requires the player to make the world what it is. 90% of the gamers out there want things done for them. You give them a blank canvas and they will leave. You give them 1000's of pointless things to do and they will stay. Simply put, they're not paying money to create a game for themselves to play, they're paying money for someone else to create a game for them to play.
The thing is OP is that you are just tired of mmorpg's. You played to much of them and made too many characters per mmo's.
You should stop playing them for a while, just try some rpg's or even action or adventure games for the time been. After a while you will decide to come back to the mmorpg genre and it will be fun again to level up. The thing is mmorpgs are made to have characters level up and to quest, etc. That is the core of a mmorpg. It will never change. Otherwise it is like saying a car without wheels and a motor is a car? It does not make sense right? Well same thing when it comes to a mmorpg.
What you would like is not a mmorpg but something as massive as them and with the online feature it got. Take skyrim for a exemple and include the massive side that a mmorpg got in it and that is what you are looking for. You don't want the questing that mmorpgs got or the leveling process it got, but you would like something as massive but with the same content that a game like Skyrim offers. It is something the devs do not do and it is a shame.
no I am not. I havnt been playing PC games (non facebook kind) for months. I just got my PC a few weeks ago.
And I dont play playstation/handhelds anymore.
I am positive about what I dont like. and that is Leveling grind.
it serves no purpose. First people said it was for learning to play. But in most MMOs, you dont learn what max level player content is all about while leveling.
also you dont learn how to use your class as a low level since you have so few skills that are vital to your class (look at GW2 auto attack in the NPE).
Thats not fun. How can I explore a game that limits my exploration by levels?
The reason it is so boring is because your ONLY purpose for playing is to gain a level,which imo is an incredible superficial reason for playing a MMO.Yes i realize that skills are levels but it gives you MORE to look forward to .Also the sub class system started by Final Fantasy also gives you MORE because you don't lose everything you worked for by starting alt after alt.
Combat leveling also does a lot more than simply chasing yellow markers and besides your multiple classes and skills,it also allows
grouping" go figure in a mmo,whoda thunk it.Inside of that grouping the combat is MUCH more or SHOULD be more versatile than solo combat,which again creates more fun.
You also NEED "content" in your game,no quests are not enough content,that is why those games get so boring,it is usually the ONLY content.Sure i have seen some games add in other ideas but usually they are really cheap ideas like jump puzzles or timed options/missions.You need ideas that allow you to level your skills and fun combat within a group and there are TONS of ideas that can be done.
The problem is cost and time,devs see questing as an easy menu system that needs nothing more than an objective,a trigger then return for reward.I have seen devs get even lazier by auto triggering rewards which is totally unrealistic and dumb.
Bottom line is we have seen really poor game producers creating really poor game design.it is liek they put no thought into it at all,just start creating assets,textures,music,sounds,models and give the game a fancy title then market the heck out of it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
This post is not surprising. It is clearly obvious to anyone who has played an MMORPG that there is a certain segment of the gaming population that has no interest in experiencing "levels", Ie., a "journey," in an online game. Their only interest is to get to top level in a few days and play end game content. They do not read quests and simply rush to max level as fast as possible. Is there no wonder why they find the genre boring? How can one not get bored when they are not following a story line and their only purpose for playing the game for dozens of hours, and days, is the changing of that little level number on the top left of their computer screen? Its a Role Playing Game (RPG) for crissakes. If you are not RPGing, you are playing the game wrong.
For the majority of these players there has never been a point where leveling has ever actually been a "turn on." The remainder with this mindset have tolerated this aspect of the MMORPG genre but can no longer do so because it has never been an appealing aspect of the MMORPG genre for them. Most of the players comprising this mindset are "FPS" or "MOBA" type players who have infiltrated the MMORPG genre and do not understand the difference in the varying online gaming genres. They do not understand the simple fact that if you take the leveling progression aspect out of an MMORPG, it is no longer an MMORPG, it then becomes a totally different animal. They will never be satisfied with it because they simply do not understand it. The real culprits in this confusion are the greedy game developers who instead of making the distinction clear, continue their attempt to combine the genres in an effort to appeal to a greater audience thereby maximizing their bottom line.
Bottom line, if you don't want a level progression "journey" type game, play an FPS or MOBA type game. MMORPG's are simply not for you.
It is clearly obvious to anyone who has played an MMORPG that there is a certain segment of the gaming population that has no interest in experiencing "levels", Ie., a "journey," in an online game.
Second segment (biggest) containing people who have no idea that non-level based MMOs exist.
Third segment (tiny fraction) representing vocal minority of players that actually like leveling.
It is clearly obvious to anyone who has played an MMORPG that there is a certain segment of the gaming population that has no interest in experiencing "levels", Ie., a "journey," in an online game.
Second segment (biggest) containing people who have no idea that non-level based MMOs exist.
Third segment (tiny fraction) representing vocal minority of players that actually like leveling.
Non-level based, or "non-progression," type MMO's do exist. They are called "FPS's" and "MOBA's." If you are not interested in levels, play those. There is a distinct difference between an MMO and an MMORPG.
That "tiny fraction" representing the vocal minority of players actually liking leveling is the "minority" that propelled the online gaming genre to the multi-billion dollar industry it is today. Had it not been for them there may not be such a thing as online gaming to the extent we know it today.
People say that levelling doesn't teach you a thing about how to play at endgame. As a survivor of the free Character Level Boost, I laugh at that silly notion. The people who boosted their characters and then came into dungeons, all full of their belief that they could do them since they'd done them repeatedly on 'almost every other class' and then got promptly smooshed into oblivion is one of my last memories of WoW, and it's a doozy. The PVP players who loved all the free Honor Kills from those players, the dungeon boss monsters who positively ate them alive, and so on...the tears of lamentation were flowing freely.
But really, imo endgame is B.O.R.I.N.G. In any game. Why someone would want to rush to it, I'll never know. To each their own and all that, naturally.
Non-level based, or "non-progression," type MMO's do exist. They are called "FPS's" and "MOBA's." If you are not interested in levels, play those. There is a distinct difference between an MMO and an MMORPG.
Did I say non-progression?
Originally posted by LacedOpium
That "tiny fraction" representing the vocal minority of players actually liking leveling is the "minority" that propelled the online gaming genre to the multi-billion dollar industry it is today. Had it not been for them there may not be such a thing as online gaming to the extent we know it today.
"Multi-billion dollar industry" is selling level 90 characters for $60 and its extremely popular service among players. If people really loved leveling it wouldnt cost $60, it wouldnt be popular, bah, it wouldnt even be there. Its definitive proof that leveling is NOT wanted by players, why its so hard to understand?
Non-level based, or "non-progression," type MMO's do exist. They are called "FPS's" and "MOBA's." If you are not interested in levels, play those. There is a distinct difference between an MMO and an MMORPG.
Did I say non-progression?
Originally posted by LacedOpium
That "tiny fraction" representing the vocal minority of players actually liking leveling is the "minority" that propelled the online gaming genre to the multi-billion dollar industry it is today. Had it not been for them there may not be such a thing as online gaming to the extent we know it today.
"Multi-billion dollar industry" is selling level 90 characters for $60 and its extremely popular service among players. If people really loved leveling it wouldnt cost $60, it wouldnt be popular, bah, it wouldnt even be there. Its definitive proof that leveling is NOT wanted by players, why its so hard to understand?
... because you don't know what you are talking about. If you did you would know that its there as a matter of convenience for those who have already experienced the leveling content to skip it and refrain from having to do it all over again. Just because I enjoy a story line and enjoyed the leveling experience the first time does not mean I want to repeat it all over again with alts. It also makes sense for a company to offer the convenience if they want to continue generating income. Whether popular or not, even if only 5% of the base payed for the service it would be an additional 5% revenue they would not have otherwise generated. All sorts of services and gadgets are offered in cash shops. They are merely another means by which to generate additional revenue.
"Multi-billion dollar industry" is selling level 90 characters for $60 and its extremely popular service among players. If people really loved leveling it wouldnt cost $60, it wouldnt be popular, bah, it wouldnt even be there. Its definitive proof that leveling is NOT wanted by players, why its so hard to understand?
Um, well... actually, excuse me... pardon me
Where are these level 90 characters being sold on a new game?
I am beyond sick of solo quest grinding as the main means to leveling in mmos.
I am in minority where coming together as a group to level up was actually enjoyable. But if it the game is based on doing quest to level or where leveling is just filler content I would rather see it just go away completly.
I like MMOs that let me be effective at all tiers and zones of play from level 1, but still allow me to improve my character over time. That way I am enjoying the full game while still getting the "Ding."
Originally posted by dreamscaper
Originally posted by Enbysra
Originally posted by zzax
"Multi-billion dollar industry" is selling level 90 characters for $60 and its extremely popular service among players. If people really loved leveling it wouldnt cost $60, it wouldnt be popular, bah, it wouldnt even be there. Its definitive proof that leveling is NOT wanted by players, why its so hard to understand?
Um, well... actually, excuse me... pardon me
Where are these level 90 characters being sold on a new game?
But really, imo endgame is B.O.R.I.N.G. In any game. Why someone would want to rush to it, I'll never know. To each their own and all that, naturally.
+1 but it's like a political argument they will never convince us that grinding with no real progression is fun and we will never convince them that leveling is fun. I think people who complain about leveling don't really like RPGs in the first place and were just dragged into the genre because their friends were playing WoW or something. MMOs are cutting out more and more of the actual RPG parts. Dumbing down and speeding up leveling is just part of that. I wish we had new MMOs for people who like RPG mechanics but that takes a ton of money.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Progression Defines the genre and the questing/levelling phase is a big part of that process - the phase where the story is told and you connect with the world (xp gathering and levelling should be a nice side effect) Many people love that phase - even in broken virtual worlds like WOW, the start of the expansion is the most exciting time. The issue is that people who do not enjoy that phase still play and then complain about it being boring - and ofc if you dont enjoy a thing it is boring. What happens in games with less heavy gear/power based progression is that world remains meaningful and has gameplay value.
I like mostly how you worded this.
I love this genre, most of the time, mmorpgs, rpg's.......the progression is what makes the game for me. Actually in every game there is progression for the most part.
Whenever I tired of the typical MMO leveling grind, I play single player, console type games......so I can get that "Woohoo I win" feeling. The Bioshock Series, Shadow of Mordor, The Batman games; these are GREAT single player games. I also play RTS, ARPG. I just spread myself out and try whatever seems fun.
I really do believe people frustrate themselves in MMO's , it's never been about the "grind", or the end game gear, or any of that, in my opinion. People have this crazy need to "win" or be better than the next individual, or guild. I see MMORPG'S completely different, they are meant to be virtual worlds that a person can spend their spare time in and share it with new friends, or old. I really do think MMO's were designed to be exactly that....Virtual Worlds. People on their own have slowly turned them into console games that just have a ton more content at $59.99. It's not the games, it's the players. MMO's were built to be played with friends and as teams....leveling is just what happens when you're having fun.
If it's not a genre you love anymore , move on, and find a genre you enjoy, or take a break.
I disagree. Because you like other pro-leveling people in this thread ignore the most important element of my complaint, which is content locks. Levels can hold back players from playing certain features. Its not just about story as you call it.
Again lets take Rift for example. I may simply be a MMO gamer thats a fan of Faction PvP. ANd I like this new three faction PvP system they added. Well months later a new Expansion comes out increasing the level cap, and locking away that old feature I once enjoyed behind a leveling gate. Now unless I level grind to get to the new level cap, I can no longer play the feature I once enjoyed.
This above situation applies to many different features. I am just using this as an example.
I dont want to be forced to level grind simply to enjoy the features that I like.
From my perspective, the trouble with "grinding" levels and MMORPG's in general, is that we are doing repetitive things (happens in every MMORPG so far) with usually no social interaction at all (recent trend in MMORPG's).
Lately, I've came back to SWTOR, because of x12 XP boost and I must say it's a breath of fresh air. Leveling by doing only personal story quests and optional group (heroic) quests is how every MMORPG should be IMHO.
Why even think about it as leveling? I've finally got into Warlords of Draenor after the queueing and had to check (to write this post) that I'm level 93. I don't see the level number as important to me as I've essentially exploring the content of the game at this stage, as you would a RPG or many other open map games. Once I hit 100, more will open up to me and right now, whilst I'm only on the second map, I'm just enjoying it without paying much attention to what level I am.
This is because it is starting to be pounded through your skull slowly but surely that most MMORPGs are just really poorly made RPGs.
Play a decent game like Legend of Grimrock 2 (assuming you like the gameplay, which you may not) and you reach the "aha! moment" of wow yeah MMORPGs leveling experience sucks, because well the games suck. There is no meat on the bone.
This is because it is starting to be pounded through your skull slowly but surely that most MMORPGs are just really poorly made RPGs.
Play a decent game like Legend of Grimrock 2 (assuming you like the gameplay, which you may not) and you reach the "aha! moment" of wow yeah MMORPGs leveling experience sucks, because well the games suck. There is no meat on the bone.
So the solution is to strip the RPG elements out of them rather than making them better RPGs?
I don't mind leveling. It depends on the game. Some games you can feel the devs are doing everything they can think of to slow you down like SWTOR when it first came out. Coming back and playing just the main story was great.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Leveling is boring because in any major game now a days it is essentially a single player experience only with a shitty script allot of hand holding and NO challenge.
Back when i played Daoc people grouped up from lvl 5(when you chose class) because every class could not do the same thing! or with same success and there was a great synergy with classes. Like the wizards/runemasters could deal crazy nuke damage but used a lot of mana so you could invite whatever buffer from your realm that had mana regen,then you would get a tank so you could take on more monsters(or harder ones=more xp) and then a healer/buffer for the group/tank, and a skald/bard that gave movement speed to the whole group,because in the beginning there was not mounts that made everyone the same speed,again making more need of classes and reliance.and that was from the START of the game.So it encouraged group play from the get go, and i will always prefer killing,exploring with REAL players instead of doing right click NPC talk(with most of the games having a generic shitty story) and kill X,Y pick up X,Y which is also just grinding really just without the freedom to go where you want whenever you want like you could in Daoc and EQ(if you were strong or grouped up) And since i think 80-90% don't read the text anyways. And nothing in Daoc was locked away behind Gearscore or achievements or that "EPIC" item. Hell raiding was mostly done as a form of getting money so you could buy the GOOD stuff from REAL players again enforcing social interaction and everyone could not become a good crafter overnight it required money and time.
I recently came back in MOP in WoW and it was so boring and AUTO PILOT, in dungeon finder nobody talks or there is no need for it so people don't, Since everything is FACE ROLL. Everyone leaves instantly after anything is done. Guilds have even been made into XP bonuses until max.
I remember i Daoc that i would level or farm or whatever with people for hours everyday i logged on, also because if you did you just got more stuff done or more xp and so on. Today there really is no reason for grouping since every class is made able to clear everything by default with no challenge. I went to level 8x i MOP and there was absolutely no challenge at all the whole experience, i could use a few hotkeys to face roll anything basically. And that is really sad that the bigger the games get, with more players online, the more single player it feels and the easier it has gotten
And this Gear circle crack addiction is also not my type of fun in an MMORPG. Again in Daoc if you were a healer for example you could still be really viable even fucking NAKED, gear was not THE GAME!
They also had in my mind the best system with "war" 3 factions just create a more interesting and unpredictable experience. With a huge persistent battleground with castles,watch towers,siege equipment,relics(that gave realm bonusesto everyone even people leveling) and it even opened up for a huge dungeon every faction could join whenever they had the most battleground claimed. Where people would battle each other. And battlegrounds started from lvl 15 with you gaining realm ranks you could spent on stuff that helped you while leveling so it ment something. It was quite funny but people actually took pride in whatever faction they chose and it meant something, i remember guys that would only play 1 faction because that was their "home". And all faction had healers/buffers/tanks/pet classes/stealthers but they always had something different for the 3 realms and they in most cases felt different. Whereas in WOW(and most other games that copied it) everything is the same weather horde or alliance. And Daoc was from late 1999 as far as i remember made by a tiny team by todays standards. And with all of their expansions(5 or 6) they never raised the level CAP, it was GREAT! Because it was not really needed. Because it was not the main point or the only way to keep people entertained, by just making numbers higher across the board and then doing the same and making everything before redundant.
And it is of course dated in many ways now, but that was seriously the last time i really felt like i was playing in a social world where group play was almost necessary and it was heavily rewarded and it was just the way of life. And stuff did take time but it also felt good when it was completed, now the game needs to tell you when to feel good because the actions themselves don't feel like it at all, ACHIEVEMENTS!!! Food pellet!
Sorry for the long ranty comment, but it really makes me confused to see where the genre has gone, and what it has become. It feels like a console hack n slash dungeon crawler in most cases.
And this perfectly balanced PVP with 5-10vs5-10 is also not fun or unpredictable like when you got a war between 3 factions,with persistence and rewards for your whole realm and ranks to gain and so on. Why go to these instanced small battlegrounds like Call of duty or FPS,when you can have a whole world with everyone participating? Now im done
This is because it is starting to be pounded through your skull slowly but surely that most MMORPGs are just really poorly made RPGs.
Play a decent game like Legend of Grimrock 2 (assuming you like the gameplay, which you may not) and you reach the "aha! moment" of wow yeah MMORPGs leveling experience sucks, because well the games suck. There is no meat on the bone.
So the solution is to strip the RPG elements out of them rather than making them better RPGs?
I am not sure where you get this "solution" I certainly never said that. The solution is to actually make an MMORPG that is actually a good RPG. There almost aren't any and very rarely have been.
When an RPG is well made each portion of the game feels "interesting", MMOs almost never capture this. Maybe Asheron's Call does, maybe EvE does, maybe UO. I, personally, think even EQ was a rather poor RPG. Any game that relied on grinding for content was a poor RPG basically by definition.
MMOs are mostly about grinding for power, and while that has always existed in CRPGs its generally considered a bad thing not something to glorify and make money off of.
If you go through a list of the most acclaimed and top rated CRPGs since the beginning (roughly 1980 but really a little earlier) you see games listed like Ultima 4 or Ultima Underworld or Bard's Tale or some the Wizardry series or Planescape Torment. More modern games like Divinity Original Sin get a lot of recognition (even with its balance flaws, its still interesting through the whole play through).
90% of MMORPGs are not interesting through the entire play through, they may have some RPG mechanics people like and are therefore willing to tolerate the otherwise piss poor mediocre RPG but that is about it.
By and large most MMORPG fail at the actual RPG part. Sure they design some loot and some character classes, but there is far more to a good RPG than that. That is simply the car you drive on the road that is the RPG. Sure if the car is a frigging Yugo the drive will suck, but if the road is completely straight and flat the drive will also suck. MMORPG may try to give you a ferrari and then they say here you go, drive this ferrari on that really boring srtaight,flat road that goes on forever.
So the solution is clearly that they need to stop making complete fucking crap RPGs.
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It is not that it is hard, it is that it is not profitable enough. And the gaming industry these days is all about maximizing profitability and corruption. Hence why #GamergGate was created.
My gaming blog
Number one reason why sandbox won't work is that it requires the player to make the world what it is. 90% of the gamers out there want things done for them. You give them a blank canvas and they will leave. You give them 1000's of pointless things to do and they will stay. Simply put, they're not paying money to create a game for themselves to play, they're paying money for someone else to create a game for them to play.
no I am not. I havnt been playing PC games (non facebook kind) for months. I just got my PC a few weeks ago.
And I dont play playstation/handhelds anymore.
I am positive about what I dont like. and that is Leveling grind.
it serves no purpose. First people said it was for learning to play. But in most MMOs, you dont learn what max level player content is all about while leveling.
also you dont learn how to use your class as a low level since you have so few skills that are vital to your class (look at GW2 auto attack in the NPE).
Thats not fun. How can I explore a game that limits my exploration by levels?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
The reason it is so boring is because your ONLY purpose for playing is to gain a level,which imo is an incredible superficial reason for playing a MMO.Yes i realize that skills are levels but it gives you MORE to look forward to .Also the sub class system started by Final Fantasy also gives you MORE because you don't lose everything you worked for by starting alt after alt.
Combat leveling also does a lot more than simply chasing yellow markers and besides your multiple classes and skills,it also allows
grouping" go figure in a mmo,whoda thunk it.Inside of that grouping the combat is MUCH more or SHOULD be more versatile than solo combat,which again creates more fun.
You also NEED "content" in your game,no quests are not enough content,that is why those games get so boring,it is usually the ONLY content.Sure i have seen some games add in other ideas but usually they are really cheap ideas like jump puzzles or timed options/missions.You need ideas that allow you to level your skills and fun combat within a group and there are TONS of ideas that can be done.
The problem is cost and time,devs see questing as an easy menu system that needs nothing more than an objective,a trigger then return for reward.I have seen devs get even lazier by auto triggering rewards which is totally unrealistic and dumb.
Bottom line is we have seen really poor game producers creating really poor game design.it is liek they put no thought into it at all,just start creating assets,textures,music,sounds,models and give the game a fancy title then market the heck out of it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
This post is not surprising. It is clearly obvious to anyone who has played an MMORPG that there is a certain segment of the gaming population that has no interest in experiencing "levels", Ie., a "journey," in an online game. Their only interest is to get to top level in a few days and play end game content. They do not read quests and simply rush to max level as fast as possible. Is there no wonder why they find the genre boring? How can one not get bored when they are not following a story line and their only purpose for playing the game for dozens of hours, and days, is the changing of that little level number on the top left of their computer screen? Its a Role Playing Game (RPG) for crissakes. If you are not RPGing, you are playing the game wrong.
For the majority of these players there has never been a point where leveling has ever actually been a "turn on." The remainder with this mindset have tolerated this aspect of the MMORPG genre but can no longer do so because it has never been an appealing aspect of the MMORPG genre for them. Most of the players comprising this mindset are "FPS" or "MOBA" type players who have infiltrated the MMORPG genre and do not understand the difference in the varying online gaming genres. They do not understand the simple fact that if you take the leveling progression aspect out of an MMORPG, it is no longer an MMORPG, it then becomes a totally different animal. They will never be satisfied with it because they simply do not understand it. The real culprits in this confusion are the greedy game developers who instead of making the distinction clear, continue their attempt to combine the genres in an effort to appeal to a greater audience thereby maximizing their bottom line.
Bottom line, if you don't want a level progression "journey" type game, play an FPS or MOBA type game. MMORPG's are simply not for you.
Second segment (biggest) containing people who have no idea that non-level based MMOs exist.
Third segment (tiny fraction) representing vocal minority of players that actually like leveling.
Non-level based, or "non-progression," type MMO's do exist. They are called "FPS's" and "MOBA's." If you are not interested in levels, play those. There is a distinct difference between an MMO and an MMORPG.
That "tiny fraction" representing the vocal minority of players actually liking leveling is the "minority" that propelled the online gaming genre to the multi-billion dollar industry it is today. Had it not been for them there may not be such a thing as online gaming to the extent we know it today.
People say that levelling doesn't teach you a thing about how to play at endgame. As a survivor of the free Character Level Boost, I laugh at that silly notion. The people who boosted their characters and then came into dungeons, all full of their belief that they could do them since they'd done them repeatedly on 'almost every other class' and then got promptly smooshed into oblivion is one of my last memories of WoW, and it's a doozy. The PVP players who loved all the free Honor Kills from those players, the dungeon boss monsters who positively ate them alive, and so on...the tears of lamentation were flowing freely.
But really, imo endgame is B.O.R.I.N.G. In any game. Why someone would want to rush to it, I'll never know. To each their own and all that, naturally.
Did I say non-progression?
"Multi-billion dollar industry" is selling level 90 characters for $60 and its extremely popular service among players. If people really loved leveling it wouldnt cost $60, it wouldnt be popular, bah, it wouldnt even be there. Its definitive proof that leveling is NOT wanted by players, why its so hard to understand?
... because you don't know what you are talking about. If you did you would know that its there as a matter of convenience for those who have already experienced the leveling content to skip it and refrain from having to do it all over again. Just because I enjoy a story line and enjoyed the leveling experience the first time does not mean I want to repeat it all over again with alts. It also makes sense for a company to offer the convenience if they want to continue generating income. Whether popular or not, even if only 5% of the base payed for the service it would be an additional 5% revenue they would not have otherwise generated. All sorts of services and gadgets are offered in cash shops. They are merely another means by which to generate additional revenue.
It's not a new game, it's World of Warcraft.
Raid = multiplayer
PVP = multiplayer
Everyone = same level = more playmate
All content unlocked
Do you need other reason to MAX level ASAP in MMOs ?
I am beyond sick of solo quest grinding as the main means to leveling in mmos.
I am in minority where coming together as a group to level up was actually enjoyable. But if it the game is based on doing quest to level or where leveling is just filler content I would rather see it just go away completly.
I like MMOs that let me be effective at all tiers and zones of play from level 1, but still allow me to improve my character over time. That way I am enjoying the full game while still getting the "Ding."
SOE takes out the middleman and sells you level 75 characters for EQ2.
+1 but it's like a political argument they will never convince us that grinding with no real progression is fun and we will never convince them that leveling is fun. I think people who complain about leveling don't really like RPGs in the first place and were just dragged into the genre because their friends were playing WoW or something. MMOs are cutting out more and more of the actual RPG parts. Dumbing down and speeding up leveling is just part of that. I wish we had new MMOs for people who like RPG mechanics but that takes a ton of money.
I disagree. Because you like other pro-leveling people in this thread ignore the most important element of my complaint, which is content locks. Levels can hold back players from playing certain features.
Its not just about story as you call it.
Again lets take Rift for example. I may simply be a MMO gamer thats a fan of Faction PvP. ANd I like this new three faction PvP system they added. Well months later a new Expansion comes out increasing the level cap, and locking away that old feature I once enjoyed behind a leveling gate. Now unless I level grind to get to the new level cap, I can no longer play the feature I once enjoyed.
This above situation applies to many different features. I am just using this as an example.
I dont want to be forced to level grind simply to enjoy the features that I like.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I agree with you OP.
From my perspective, the trouble with "grinding" levels and MMORPG's in general, is that we are doing repetitive things (happens in every MMORPG so far) with usually no social interaction at all (recent trend in MMORPG's).
Lately, I've came back to SWTOR, because of x12 XP boost and I must say it's a breath of fresh air. Leveling by doing only personal story quests and optional group (heroic) quests is how every MMORPG should be IMHO.
Why even think about it as leveling? I've finally got into Warlords of Draenor after the queueing and had to check (to write this post) that I'm level 93. I don't see the level number as important to me as I've essentially exploring the content of the game at this stage, as you would a RPG or many other open map games. Once I hit 100, more will open up to me and right now, whilst I'm only on the second map, I'm just enjoying it without paying much attention to what level I am.
Why get hung up on the leveling?
This is because it is starting to be pounded through your skull slowly but surely that most MMORPGs are just really poorly made RPGs.
Play a decent game like Legend of Grimrock 2 (assuming you like the gameplay, which you may not) and you reach the "aha! moment" of wow yeah MMORPGs leveling experience sucks, because well the games suck. There is no meat on the bone.
So the solution is to strip the RPG elements out of them rather than making them better RPGs?
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Leveling is boring because in any major game now a days it is essentially a single player experience only with a shitty script allot of hand holding and NO challenge.
Back when i played Daoc people grouped up from lvl 5(when you chose class) because every class could not do the same thing! or with same success and there was a great synergy with classes. Like the wizards/runemasters could deal crazy nuke damage but used a lot of mana so you could invite whatever buffer from your realm that had mana regen,then you would get a tank so you could take on more monsters(or harder ones=more xp) and then a healer/buffer for the group/tank, and a skald/bard that gave movement speed to the whole group,because in the beginning there was not mounts that made everyone the same speed,again making more need of classes and reliance.and that was from the START of the game.So it encouraged group play from the get go, and i will always prefer killing,exploring with REAL players instead of doing right click NPC talk(with most of the games having a generic shitty story) and kill X,Y pick up X,Y which is also just grinding really just without the freedom to go where you want whenever you want like you could in Daoc and EQ(if you were strong or grouped up) And since i think 80-90% don't read the text anyways. And nothing in Daoc was locked away behind Gearscore or achievements or that "EPIC" item. Hell raiding was mostly done as a form of getting money so you could buy the GOOD stuff from REAL players again enforcing social interaction and everyone could not become a good crafter overnight it required money and time.
I recently came back in MOP in WoW and it was so boring and AUTO PILOT, in dungeon finder nobody talks or there is no need for it so people don't, Since everything is FACE ROLL. Everyone leaves instantly after anything is done. Guilds have even been made into XP bonuses until max.
I remember i Daoc that i would level or farm or whatever with people for hours everyday i logged on, also because if you did you just got more stuff done or more xp and so on. Today there really is no reason for grouping since every class is made able to clear everything by default with no challenge. I went to level 8x i MOP and there was absolutely no challenge at all the whole experience, i could use a few hotkeys to face roll anything basically. And that is really sad that the bigger the games get, with more players online, the more single player it feels and the easier it has gotten
And this Gear circle crack addiction is also not my type of fun in an MMORPG. Again in Daoc if you were a healer for example you could still be really viable even fucking NAKED, gear was not THE GAME!
They also had in my mind the best system with "war" 3 factions just create a more interesting and unpredictable experience. With a huge persistent battleground with castles,watch towers,siege equipment,relics(that gave realm bonusesto everyone even people leveling) and it even opened up for a huge dungeon every faction could join whenever they had the most battleground claimed. Where people would battle each other. And battlegrounds started from lvl 15 with you gaining realm ranks you could spent on stuff that helped you while leveling so it ment something. It was quite funny but people actually took pride in whatever faction they chose and it meant something, i remember guys that would only play 1 faction because that was their "home". And all faction had healers/buffers/tanks/pet classes/stealthers but they always had something different for the 3 realms and they in most cases felt different. Whereas in WOW(and most other games that copied it) everything is the same weather horde or alliance. And Daoc was from late 1999 as far as i remember made by a tiny team by todays standards. And with all of their expansions(5 or 6) they never raised the level CAP, it was GREAT! Because it was not really needed. Because it was not the main point or the only way to keep people entertained, by just making numbers higher across the board and then doing the same and making everything before redundant.
And it is of course dated in many ways now, but that was seriously the last time i really felt like i was playing in a social world where group play was almost necessary and it was heavily rewarded and it was just the way of life. And stuff did take time but it also felt good when it was completed, now the game needs to tell you when to feel good because the actions themselves don't feel like it at all, ACHIEVEMENTS!!! Food pellet!
Sorry for the long ranty comment, but it really makes me confused to see where the genre has gone, and what it has become. It feels like a console hack n slash dungeon crawler in most cases.
And this perfectly balanced PVP with 5-10vs5-10 is also not fun or unpredictable like when you got a war between 3 factions,with persistence and rewards for your whole realm and ranks to gain and so on. Why go to these instanced small battlegrounds like Call of duty or FPS,when you can have a whole world with everyone participating? Now im done
I am not sure where you get this "solution" I certainly never said that. The solution is to actually make an MMORPG that is actually a good RPG. There almost aren't any and very rarely have been.
When an RPG is well made each portion of the game feels "interesting", MMOs almost never capture this. Maybe Asheron's Call does, maybe EvE does, maybe UO. I, personally, think even EQ was a rather poor RPG. Any game that relied on grinding for content was a poor RPG basically by definition.
MMOs are mostly about grinding for power, and while that has always existed in CRPGs its generally considered a bad thing not something to glorify and make money off of.
If you go through a list of the most acclaimed and top rated CRPGs since the beginning (roughly 1980 but really a little earlier) you see games listed like Ultima 4 or Ultima Underworld or Bard's Tale or some the Wizardry series or Planescape Torment. More modern games like Divinity Original Sin get a lot of recognition (even with its balance flaws, its still interesting through the whole play through).
90% of MMORPGs are not interesting through the entire play through, they may have some RPG mechanics people like and are therefore willing to tolerate the otherwise piss poor mediocre RPG but that is about it.
By and large most MMORPG fail at the actual RPG part. Sure they design some loot and some character classes, but there is far more to a good RPG than that. That is simply the car you drive on the road that is the RPG. Sure if the car is a frigging Yugo the drive will suck, but if the road is completely straight and flat the drive will also suck. MMORPG may try to give you a ferrari and then they say here you go, drive this ferrari on that really boring srtaight,flat road that goes on forever.
So the solution is clearly that they need to stop making complete fucking crap RPGs.