How big is the permadeath ultra hate is? PART 3

exdeathbr · November 2014

Most of the time, when people talk about permadeath here or some thread is about a game that say that will have permadeath, there are some guys that complain about permadeath saying they hate it and would never play games with it.

But there are some more specific guys, that not only say they hate permadeath mechanics, saying they skip some game automatically when they see the word "has permadeath" on it, but say that games with it shouldnt be made (as some example I hate the music genre harsh noise wall, but I dont say people shouldnt be doing it and they should just listen to tv static http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlQj_rsMk84 [warning, loud]).

Those guys also say, that you can just delete your char when you die and there is no reason to have permadeath, permadeath is forcing stuff into other players and etc...

They say this no matter what permadeath system is proposed, and even when a game is made from the scratch with permadeath idea in mind.

To verify how far this hate goes, I made 2 threads with polls before, they had a permadeath implementation that was almost no permadeath (or no permadeath) and then I asked people if they would want to ban it, if this idea would be ok to exist.

On the first thread I made the game had no skill or item loss, and you started at universe A, when you died you on universe A you gone to universe B, this universe B is 100% (not 99.999995%, really 100%) like universe A, but when you died on universe B you continued to stay on universe B like in a normal game with permadeath.

On the pool asking if people would want to "ban" this game, most said yes.

Then I after some time I made a new poll with a mechanic that had even less permadeath. The game would works like this, the game is a normal mmorpg, but has 2 servers instead of one, on one server, you dont have permadeath, the other server is 100% like the first one (not 99.99995% but exactly 100% like the first one) but when you died there this character is deleted from game.

This one also had many "i would still 'ban' this idea", answers on the poll. And its not even permadeath when you play on another server, but I made this second poll anyway to check if even this would "bannable" by those users.

Now I am making a new thread and to again ask what people would do on that situation.

NEW SITUATION TO CONSIDER

Some of the kind of users that say that permadeath "should be banned" and etc..., usually say there is no need to permadeath mechanics because the guys that like permadeath can just delete their chars when they die.

Now imagine this, imagine some non permadeath game, without permadeath servers and etc..

Now imagine that some of the players that play this game, really like permadeath. They really like it, and because the game dont have permadeath mechanics or server with, they decide that each time they die, they delete their chars and start again.

So all those guys that liked permadeath decided, they will delete their chars, when their char dies, and they will start with new char.

THE POLL

This question is to those "permadeath should be banned" users.

What would you do in the situation I proposed before (all those permadeath likers decided to delete their chars if they die)?

L0C0Man · November 2014

Voted 1, I'm on the "I hate permadeath and would never go anywhere near a game that has it", but don't really have anything about someone wanting it or wanting to play a game with it.

As for the games proposed, in the first case the system would count as a minor inconvenienve, I'd play it if the rest of the game is good enough for me, but first thing I'd do before creating a new character would be to look for a cliff to jump off or any other way to kill my character right away so I can start playing on the non permadeath server from the beggining. On the second case, it would be a non issue for me, I'd just go into the non permadeath server from the beggining, I wouldn't even consider it if I was deciding whether to play or not that particular game. On the third case, it would also be a non issue for me, as long as it isn't inconveniencing anyone else, people are free to do with their characters as they please, and that includes deleting them. Actually back when I played WoW I followed someone that was playing one character like that as an experiment, got to level 50 or so before dying and deleting.

Of course, it also depends on the community.... if you have the permadeath players talking down and berating the non permadeath players then they should be suspended or even banned, but that would be because of harassment rules and not because of the way they prefer to play (just the same if non permadeath players were berating or cursing to permadeath ones).

exdeathbr · November 2014

Originally posted by L0C0Man
[...]

As for the games proposed, in the first case the system would count as a minor inconvenienve, [...]

The first two proposed Ideas were already asked on separated threads, this is not the point of the thread. I made the first idea, that you say you could just jump of the cliff and play on the universe B without permadeath and as a way to check how much people want to "ban" the idea. With a idea that is not exacly permdeath.

When people said they would even want to ban this idea, I decided to make a new one with a permadeath server and another 100% similar server but without permadeath, this has even less permadeath and the smallest amount of permadeath you problably can have. and yet people answered yes to the ban stuff.

So curious about it again, I decided to test something that is not permadeath, and also its their own idea (the game doenst have permadeath and all the ones that love permadeath will delete their char when they die) to see what would they say about this idea.

udon · November 2014

I'm not a fan of permadeath as a game mechanic but if a developer is going to do it they should do it right. Having player introduce permadeath into a game that's not designed to support it seems a bit silly to me but to each their own and it's no skin off my back if someone does it.

I don't hate permadeath I just prefer longer term progression than until the next time you die. Having said that I will play some permadeath games like FTL where you start over if you die because the game is designed around it so it works as a mechanic.

Toxia · November 2014

Permadeath is an auto no-go for me.

If its you taking it upon yourself to delete your char on death, more power to you.

if *I'M* ever at risk of losing my character, or work ive put into it, im not playing.

Sovrath · November 2014

As far as permadeath games go, people have the right to play or not play and developers have the right to make them if they want.

As far as people saying "they shouldn't exist" that's extremism and why would you waste your time addressing that?

The only issue with permadeath games is whether or not they can garner a large enough player base to support their continued development.

Also, as far as the players who indicated "you can delete your character", they fail to realize that the whole idea of rule sets is that everyone shares in the success and failures and are on the same level as far as penalties.

The whole idea of any rule set is that all players are subject to the same rule set.

dreamscaper · November 2014

Remember how much you hated running out of lives and continues on old NES games?

Now multiply that by an MMO experience that you've invested countless hours into.

HabitualFrogStomp · November 2014

I don't think anyone can really "ban" a game mechanic or a design decision, if so can we ban FTP and cash shops instead?

That said, permadeath in my opinion only works in a game where combat is not the norm. Most games you kill 40 bears/wolves/boars on your way from level 1 to level 5. Combat really becomes trivialized and as a result the player has killed thousands of things that just instantly reappear anyways. It only makes sense when combat is so common and things respawn rapidly, the player should respawn too. But what about a game where hunting a boar was actually not an every day thing. Where using your weapon in combat is so rare that other players would stop and watch. If you get gored by it, the death should be as meaningful as the fight was, otherwise again combat becomes trivialized and everyone will want to fight boar, because there is no real penalty for doing so, it's simply a means for advancement.

Permadeath works for the survival genre in that way. You spend most of your time scavenging or making things, or hiding. You could go days without fighting something and it's not really a big deal. This type of design makes combat meaningful, and I think it has a real place in the MMO world where things have gotten stale. And permadeath has a place along with it.

I'll expand a bit to include a little rant on community. Communities in MMO's suck. They're terrible now though it wasn't always so poor. Imagine a world where permadeath existed and combat was rare, and there's a real badass who has killed dozens of players. If you did not know this person you would've heard of them. Then one day someone gets the drop on him and kills him. This would be big news on your server, people would be talking about it. In today's MMO's that player simply respawns, calls you a noob, and kills you back. Nothing was accomplished, nobody bats an eyelash, and when you think about it the whole thing is really contrived and boring. By having permadeath you encourage community interaction in a meaningful way, not just because events are more important, but because having people you can trust lengthens your life.

Sovrath · November 2014

Originally posted by dreamscaper
Remember how much you hated running out of lives and continues on old NES games?

Now multiply that by an MMO experience that you've invested countless hours into.

The thing is, permadeath is not really about the character. It's about taking a character to its logical conclusion.

It's about cultivating multiple lives and experiences not cultivating one character. This is why it's hard for some people to wrap their minds around the experience.

Not that they have to like it but players are constantly bringing up the argument of "I don't want to put so much time into one character to lose it" when that's not the point of the process.

Robsolf · November 2014

Here was your wording:

Question to those ultra permadeath haters I talk about: Would you allow this idea I talk in this thread
	Yes, i would allow.
	No, still hate it.
	I am not one of those style of ultra permadeath haters you talk about.

This is in reference to an idea involving having servers that are permadeath, and some that are not.

Given the extraordinary number of times you use the word "ban" in your posts, I find it interesting that you didn't use it in your poll. You had a very clear way of framing the question (would you ban this idea?), and you chose to nuance it.

Reminds me of the 3rd grade playground questions like,

"do you like boys?"

"Well, sure."

"Johnny is gay! Johnny is gaaaaay!"

For the record, I wouldn't care if they had permadeath servers, I just wouldn't roll on one. But I would still be concerned that there'd be a massive backlog in CS due to claims that server lag/disconnects killed their character. Even if CS has a "no restore" policy, you'll get players ringing them off the hook, "cause their situation is an exception".

exdeathbr · November 2014

Originally posted by Toxia

If its you taking it upon yourself to delete your char on death, more power to you.

if *I'M* ever at risk of losing my character, or work ive put into it, im not playing.

Well, if you and a friend are fighting against a powerfull npc and your friend die, and he likes permadeath, he would delete his char. This means he would not be able to go back to help you and there is a higher chance of you dying, obviously you will not lose you char since the game has not permadeath (if the game has item loss you may lose your items).

Myrdynn · November 2014

I think semi permadeath in some situations could be great

ARPG's like the way POE does it is cool imo

If you had an MMO like a Walking Dead type MMO, where you were human, but then when you died you were dead, but got a second life as a Zombie

waynejr2 · November 2014

Originally posted by Robsolf

Here was your wording: Question to those ultra permadeath haters I talk about: Would you allow this idea I talk in this thread Yes, i would allow. No, still hate it. I am not one of those style of ultra permadeath haters you talk about. This is in reference to an idea involving having servers that are permadeath, and some that are not.Given the extraordinary number of times you use the word "ban" in your posts, I find it interesting that you didn't use it in your poll. You had a very clear way of framing the question (would you ban this idea?), and you chose to nuance it.Reminds me of the 3rd grade playground questions like,"do you like boys?""Well, sure.""Johnny is gay! Johnny is gaaaaay!"For the record, I wouldn't care if they had permadeath servers, I just wouldn't roll on one. But I would still be concerned that there'd be a massive backlog in CS due to claims that server lag/disconnects killed their character. Even if CS has a "no restore" policy, you'll get players ringing them off the hook, "cause their situation is an exception".

Well said Robslof. I felt the same way reading it.

Helleri · November 2014

I am too lazy for perma death. I probably wouldn't want to play a game with perma death. Because, if I died. I simply have no interest in doing the work it takes to get back to where I was. More power to those who like it though. I envy that kind of...energy, lol.

Bladestrom · November 2014

Pernadeath doesn't work in a mmorpg setting as mmorpg is all about accumulating experience and value through progression. There comes a point where permadesthvwould be absolutely unacceptable. Games that have permadeath work because the players can manage the risk/reward do they are in control enough that they can risk and enjoy the adrnalin rush in situations wher death is a (managed risk). In a mmorpg you can't manage this risk effectively so it does not work.

Bladestrom · November 2014

To OP if you had a 5000 hour char in a permadeath game, would you enter a zone where you could get insta killed by a group of players, or would you do an instance where the healer for e.g could afk for a second or 2 and kill you? Or in a battleground where you ar defending a point when you are suddenly attacked by 5 of the enemy and killed. Effectively you need to have a 100% perfect win/never get killed ratio - obviously impossible because you are playing real people. Permadeath has nothing to do with mmorpg.

Neherun · November 2014

Originally posted by Bladestrom
Pernadeath doesn't work in a mmorpg setting as mmorpg is all about accumulating experience and value through progression. There comes a point where permadesthvwould be absolutely unacceptable. Games that have permadeath work because the players can manage the risk/reward do they are in control enough that they can risk and enjoy the adrnalin rush in situations wher death is a (managed risk). In a mmorpg you can't manage this risk effectively so it does not work.

To some of you, maybe. Then there's a bunch of people who consider MMORPG's a chance for player interaction in RPG setting, it doesn't necessarily even possess typical RPG elements, but has the required features for a "role-playing experience" that immerses your character in the world. And saying people cannot manage the risk, this again is a personal type of thing, to me I'd play nothing more than a perma-death sandbox game. I'd love and caress the life out of that game.

The thing is people are used to the fact that MMORPGs are all about grinding experience and gear, gaining levels and new abilities (in addition to more power) on the basis of time spent playing the said game. Which I find absolutely disgusting, in my mind a player should be the one in control of his characters power, and its up to the players to possess enough skill to call themselves powerful. Then again, this would be the basis for a functioning perma-death game. Even though I advocate perma-death, I couldn't play it in a linear progression game. Sure, I wouldn't mind doing some leveling up, but that shouldn't completely be the basis of my characters power.

Some of you never touch perma-death games, then some of us never touch MMORPG's that do not possess proper risk vs. reward factors, as to us linear character progression with no risk or freedom of action involved are boring. (And yup, to me that involves FFA PvP, because how can I immerse myself in the world if I don't even have the option to do what I wish to do? Personally I am no random PK, but to me I don't feel immersed unless I have the option to do what the hell I want. It's like Morrowind vs. Skyrim, if you could pick the core mechanics of game freedom wise, I'd pick Morrowind any day)

iixviiiix · November 2014

Had OP ever play permadeath in MMORPG ?

Or you just watch Sword Art Online and think permadeath is cool ?

I play a game called Shaiya Online years ago .

It have normal/hard mode (respawn when die) or Ultimate mode (More stats , skill , skill points ,character delete when die)

I make one Ultimate mode before the cashshop ruin ultimate mode by add respawn item

I level up to 30 and do 30 battleground , kill over 1000 .

You know the feel when my character die ? Despair , though i know the risk of high power , but i still fell despair .

Image if i make it to 60 and get 50k kill , then die in full gears ,

i may hang myself.

Permadeath wasn't good thing that you should put in MMORPG , though you can add it as option of challenge .

By saying this , it mean i don't hate it if it do right .

What AIBQuirky said is right , permadeath isn't permadeath if your character still run around .

Also , why you have to care about other delete they character ?

AlBQuirky · November 2014

Unlike many internet trolls, I am not against games having features/mechanics I do not like. It is when choices become limited that gets under my skin

I dislike permanent death and will not go near a game with it. However, I understand that some players enjoy this feature/mechanic. Let them have their games

The problem I have with the permanent death threads is when people start making "exceptions" and the game is no longer "perma-death", but rather "limited lives." Permanent Death to me means "die and the character is gone." Forever. Permanent Death. No 10 lives. No Legacy children. No exceptions.

- Have a case of bad lag? Sorry. You're dead. Character deleted.
- Made a mistake? Sorry. You're dead. Character deleted.

I realize these cases are many times used to "entice" non permanent death players into agreement, but when the exceptions start flowing, the concept of permanent death goes out the window, for me.

kjempff · November 2014

The idea that you can just delete your character when you die, is absurd. It is the same reasoning that why should you care thatsomeone uses cheats, you can just play without. Why should you care that someone can buy gear in the shop that you had to work for.

Games are as much competition as entertainment, and every game from ancient board games to modern computer games is based on common rules, as in every player playing the same position use the rules to better their advantage, whether it is directly against other players or indirectly as point systems or more abstract measurements (like mmorpg).

So about permadeath.. Why can you have an opinion, if permadeath is the rule then you play with that rule, and if you don't like the rule you play another game or the non permadeath version.. The only thing that really matter is that the rules are equal for all who play the same sphere (ie. competitors directly or indirectly).

Personally I like permadeath in arpgs or other shorter game types. For a long mmorpg experience, I wouldn't like permadeath unless some really mechanics were presented one day. I have a limit in hours where aggreviation of death become greater than the fun of the challenge, but everyone has their limir ranging from never to forever.

exdeathbr · November 2014

Originally posted by kjempff
The idea that you can just delete your character when you die, is absurd. It is the same reasoning that why should you care thatsomeone uses cheats, you can just play without. Why should you care that someone can buy gear in the shop that you had to work for.

Well yes, the idea that you can just delete your char is really absurd.

For the start and what if game doenst allow you to delete your char and have limited char slots?. How will you delete your char and so "not influence other players gameplay by wanting the game to turn into a permadetah game"?

Also imagine ultima online with permadeath, if you have a good blacksmith friend and he dies, he will not be able to do stuff for you anymore unless he trains a new char to be a blacksmith. On a game where you (not your friend) delete your char when you die, this will always have this blacksmith friend.

On a rvr game with permadeath, your friends that died will not be able to help you after they die, with non permadeath (But you deleting your char if you like it) your friends would be able to go back to battle and help you.

And this goes ....

But that is not the point of this thread:

The point was to see if they would complain about even that "style of permadeath", if even guys that like permadeath deleting their own chars when they die would be "too much permadeath" to permadeath haters.

exdeathbr · December 2014

Wtf 2 guys voted to ban this kind of players.

Zarf42 · December 2014

Permadeath is a terrible idea. No on would delete their character in any real mmorpg because they like permadeath. Also, the OP is so poorly worded I didn't bother with the poll.

Iselin · December 2014

This tiny peripheral "issue" that exists mostly in the mind of the OP required 3 parts? Really?

I remember a permadeath guild in LOTRO that self-deleted characters on death. But then LOTRO was so bloody easy that playing without dying was totally viable. Likewise with Diablo 3 where I play nothing but "hardcore" permadeath characters. When one dies there I just say to myself "Woohoo, an empty character slot for my next alt!"

Some games (easy ones or quick ones) make permadeath trivial. But tough MMOs where you're likely to die multiple times before you even get to level 20? Too much of a PITA to keep re-rolling especially if you can't pass on your good BOE or BOP equipment to an alt to let the "next generation" have an advantage.

But to those who enjoy it and want to play that way regardless? Fill your boots and have fun... anyone trying to prevent them from doing that is just a Nazi twit. Live and let die, I say.

rounner · December 2014

Of the dozen or so mmo's I made it to end game, I can't think of one I didn't crash or lag die at least once in.

exdeathbr · December 2014

Originally posted by Iselin
This tiny peripheral "issue" that exists mostly in the mind of the OP required 3 parts? Really?

Its not mostly in my mind, people complain about permadeath (as in "baning it") alot on those threads.

Also the first part was just like this

No Item loss and skill loss. You start at universe A and when you die you go to universe B (that is 100% and not 99.9996%) like universe A, but when you die on B you go back to B.

This is not permadeath (you can just create a char die with it and go to B and play non permadeath game, you will not even lose your items).

So I made a thread with this idea and even this they wanted to by "checked by the polls".

The only reason I made a second part was because they wanted to ban even this idea.

The second part was a new thread and like this:

Game has multiple servers that are 100% (not 999.99994% but exact 100%) like others. Some are non-permadeath and others have permadeath. There is no universe A and B thing.

The thing is that even that idea they wanted to ban, but permadeath would be on other servers and not on the one they would playing.

Then because of the results of the poll and the fact some of them usually say "just delete your char in a non permadeath game when you die", I decided to make this third (and final since there inst less permadeath than that) thread to see if they would ban even their own idea.

Howdy, Stranger!

How big is the permadeath ultra hate is? PART 3

Comments

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

How big is the permadeath ultra hate is? PART 3

Comments