Shards and shields

Logrus_CS · October 2014

I crafted 200+ bucklers today working out kinks with crafting. Its crawling along and is only slightly frustrating considering i had a working crafting system prototype a week and a half ago. Unfortunately while it did work well, it didn't offer the dynamic production and interactive improvement capabilities that we wanted. On to the scrap heap it went. This new one is coming along nicely but with all the added dynamics and complexity, taking a bit longer.

-Logrus

Logrus_CS · October 2014

The initial portion of metalsmithing is in place. Trying to get away from the grindy nature of crafting prevalent in most games.

Hopefully full time crafters will find it fun and a bit challenging.

MMOExposed · November 2014

you have videos?

CrazKanuk · November 2014

Originally posted by Logrus_CS
The initial portion of metalsmithing is in place. Trying to get away from the grindy nature of crafting prevalent in most games.

Hopefully full time crafters will find it fun and a bit challenging.

Hey! Thanks for joining us here. I hope that Shards will join us here on MMORPG.com to accept feedback & suggestions.

Quick comment on crafting. It'd be really nice to see a system that offers variability in what's being crafted. Sure, if you're creating 10000 copper swords for the war effort, they're mostly going to be ok. However, that doesn't mean that each and every sword will do the same amount of damage, have the same durability, etc.

Also, take a look at the WoW Jewelcrafting system. It has random procs when cutting gems that will sometimes yield a better-than-average gem (Perfect). It's a bit predictable (like 10%) RNG, but if you're going to be creating a complex crafting system, random (truly random) procs are a nice to have.

Also, it isn't completely inconceivable that if you crafted 100000 swords in your lifetime that you would craft "one sword to rule them all", you know? Like a Legendary sword. I've seen this in almost every movie that has a blacksmith. The really good ones create these one-of-a-kind swords that they could never recreate. Swords that become legend. Swords that they NAME! Like Copper Sword of Badassery. Anyway, that'd be a nice system to see in place. Just to toss my hat in the ring.

Logrus_CS · November 2014

I don't know when I'll get around to videos, I may leave that to Supreem.

So currently when you craft items, you craft a base item which gets a few random improvements based on your skill level. So as you skill up the stuff you are crafting naturally improves. Once you have crafted an item you can improve that item, which will add new properties, but has a chance at breaking the item.

As you craft items repeatedly and improve them, there is a chance you will learn how to make that item better. At that point that improved item now becomes a crafting option for you.Ie the better sword.

ForumKing · December 2014

How is mining set up. I'm not sure if I'm the few, but I loved UO's mining. Crab a pack horse/lama and head for the hills! I will say, that when switching from UO to WoW I was totally turned off of the mining system. Didn't enjoy trying to find a rock that I could mine.

Deivos · December 2014

Why not a crafting system where the items are a sum of interchangeable components?

Meaning the final item is not a rigid/singular component. You'd instead be crafting a bunch of sub-components and then grouping them to create a final item which you can then reopen into it's sub-components to swap out parts in order to modify and upgrade.

Logrus_CS · December 2014

Had initially planned to do a sub-component/assembly type system for the metal smith system, but found that it added unnecessary complexity. So if you wanted to craft a glaive, you'd craft a blade, shaft, guard and handle then assemble the glaive. Found that to be a bit tedious so just made it so you go straight to the item.

Though there are other forms of crafting which are more assembly/sub component based, but those are still being drafted out and designed.

Also there is the enhancement system which allows tweaking/customizing of the final items.

Logrus_CS · December 2014

Still working on much of the resource gathering. (And we just hit the fishing stretch goal so there's a lot of work to do.)

Deivos · December 2014

Was a little curious since it's a crafting mechanic that could considerably change the way one addresses loot and resources in a game as well.

Like I won't argue it adds complexity, but that is rather part of the point of the system. When an item can be addressed as components you can generally get more out of any given item. It's a concept that's in part meant to let players chase elements other than numbers when looking at how their gear works, since they can re-balance the sum stats of an item by changing out components so they can get a certain style of play out of their preferred gear or otherwise keep things they like aesthetically from becoming irrelevant.

It helps in dodging the painful linearity in gear as well.

Wighty · December 2014

Originally posted by Logrus_CS
Had initially planned to do a sub-component/assembly type system for the metal smith system, but found that it added unnecessary complexity. So if you wanted to craft a glaive, you'd craft a blade, shaft, guard and handle then assemble the glaive. Found that to be a bit tedious so just made it so you go straight to the item.

Though there are other forms of crafting which are more assembly/sub component based, but those are still being drafted out and designed.

Also there is the enhancement system which allows tweaking/customizing of the final items.

As a backer I beg to differ... Why take the simplistic approach like every other MMO out there and just combine the basic ore, wood, hides to make an item suddenlt appear out of no where.

You have the opportunity to do something different... if anything make it a stretch goal opportunity because after all it is more work/coding.

Using the glaive as an example you could create the

Blade... depending on the metal/bone/stone used for the blade it could alter the base damage.

Shaft... depending on the wood/bone/composite it could determine the swing speed

Guard and Handle could determine some magic effect or added stat bonuses.

-This also allows players to create their own unique recipes and styles that could create a demand for a crafter (think old school SWG). Others may discover various combinations but it will certainly take some trial and error to craft optimal items.

I just think it would be a huge step in the wrong direction to keep things so simple... If players want simple items they can loot them, based on the recet dev video looted gear will not compete with crafted gear (and vice versa) so at least give the players who want to craft something worth a damn.

Logrus_CS · December 2014

The current plan is to have variations in the crafting materials allow for certain additional bonuses to the final piece. Which allows for a small amount of pre-customization. Following that there is the improvement system which allows players the chance to learn to craft items with additional properties. Which others would be unable to craft until they had learned or bartered for the recipe. Finally any item loot or crafted can be enhanced through the enhancement system to further customize it to the player.

Adding the components in there, doesnt give the player any more options than using the specific crafting materials to give them the bonuses.

If you wanted to craft a glaive with the desired special properties then for your materials set, use the special ore, and wood. Then add a guard through the enhancement system.

Or you could add the step to make them craft each component and then assemble them for the same effect in 4 steps rather than 1 or 2.

That 4 steps is ok the first few times, but if you end up doing a lot of crafting it will probably get old.

Now if someone wanted to implement that on their own hosted shard, they could easily do that. Though for this particular skill I think that the special material options, improvement system, learning system, and enhancement system not only allow significant customization, but allow crafters to distinguish themselves among the populace by what they are able to produce.

For something completely different, the cooking skill is more of an art of mixture of subcomponents than a template/blueprint style system.

Deivos · December 2014

Not quite. Adding components alone doesn't change it true, but that's because functionally you're already using components.

The major difference is the malleability and modability it provides.

If you create an item from base components into a singular completed form then the only venue you have for costomization is how you enhance it. From the sound of it you're still making a rigid system where items when generated have relatively concrete base stats and functions.

Saying you can add certain qualities through an enhancement system with the elements you've detailed here still spells out it as being rather rigid within it's progression. You have a bit of a decision, but when it comes to what you're presented with it's all or nothing on the results.

The reason for components is that it's a means to provide choice.

Adding components in there actually does give players more choice because it decouples the crafting decisions from each other to let the players find the balance they want through a wider spread of experimentation and tinkering instead of having to deal with artificial RNG treatment of achieving variety.

Even saying "you can do that with crafting base components" is a misnomer because you are only doing part of that. You're still creating a rigid end result that the player then has to decide is hit or miss, instead of providing the alternative of saying "Well I like how this turned out, but the rest of the stats are junk" and keeping particular components for a new try.

This affects looting mechanics as well because then found gear actually becomes a valuable resource for crafting beyond salvaging for basic components. You can find items with a sub-component with some sort of value and harvest that piece, instead of gambling on discovering a recipe that gives you one thing you like amid a bunch of stats or aesthetic choices you might hate.

Additionally it provides a means of permanence. Not everyone likes treadmilling gear all the time and even more importantly not everyone wants to abandon certain gear. By being able to take preferred items and look at their sub-components and swap them out you are provided a means to collect and maintain the "perfect set" for yourself on a visual and statistic level.

It's ultimately the difference of choice. The strategy of creating sub-components on a basic level gives a similar result yes, but there is a lot of malleability and effects on the way a player may treat gear between these options.

SWTOR actually is a decent example of what I mean to a degree. Where the items themselves are largely just shells defining the basics of what the item is and what it's most basic stats and elements will be, and then it has internal parts that you slot in that defines it's stat bonuses, item tier, and additional perks. For as bad as most of that game is, they did a good job of providing an item system where players can flexibly craft or find equipment and break out the particularly things they valued in them to aggregate into the gear that they actually wanted to keep.

Point being, this actually does have mechanical differences and gameplay value differences that put it into a point of consideration beyond what a completed item's stats and behaviors might be.

CrazKanuk · December 2014

Oh, hey! Since you guys are approaching the Permadeath milestone (come on everyone! Hop on the bus!), what will permadeath look like? Is it a simple on/off switch feature? Or will there be varying levels of implementation that the shard owner will be able to use?

Logrus_CS · December 2014

The way the system works, is that you have a base item. So if you consider a glaive or spear, then it is basically a stick with a blade at one end.

The base item you craft will be constrained to that idea, but allowing modification. You can adjust the weight, length, damage, if it has a guard, counter weight, or sharpening the other end. If the base recipe of this weapon is basically the shaft and blade. The base components for those being wood and metal. You could use the specific metal ore with the properties you want to make the blade, and the specific wood to make the shaft and then assemble them to your spear or glaive. Then I suppose you could mix and match those pieces into the base final weapon you want.

But you'd have already done that mixing and matching at the time you created those pieces to assemble.

Could always dust off the assembly type plans that were going to be used by one of the other crafting systems and make it an option. But making it the required method would just be making a speed bump on a highway.

Logrus_CS · December 2014

Permadeath will be a ruleset option. Which wouldnt just mean an on/off switch but also ensuring that there are capabilities to make it viable. So probably adjusted skill gain rates, or resource gathering rates etc, so you dont spend 3 months building a character and have them die one accidentally because you spilled juice on your keyboard during a fight.

ForumKing · December 2014

Logrus, I like what I'm hearing. I hope for your sake and the teams we don't start getting a bunch of "as a paying supporter" posts. It doesn't add much to the conversation and only adds resentment from others.

As for crafting, keeping it basic is probebly the best way. If you look at UO's mistakes, once they turned armor into % where a lot of people didn't understand it, people lost interest.

A system which could of worked if they implemented it the right way was the different hammers that produced different attributes. Instead of using different hammers to increase armor and sword attributes, I would have gave the power to the miner . As a miner, as your skills increased you were able to mine different ore properties, but it had no benefit other then color to ones armor. What I thought they should of done was keep the hammers normal, but allow the rare ore to increase the properties. This way there's a benefit for different ore properties and gives a reason to become a master miner.

Another example of the drawback of a complicated smithing system, I play this app game which allows you to build up a knight with different armor, using dust, hammers, and gems. It's interesting, but the majority of the people playing have no idea which armor set it good, and which is bad (in %), so we always have to ask one person in the guild who understands the system to see if any of our items are good. I personally hate it, cause I hate not knowing something.

i don't know if any if this is useful, or if I'm just blabbering and bored.

keep up the good work and can't wait to see what's next.

The King

CrazKanuk · December 2014

Originally posted by Logrus_CS
Permadeath will be a ruleset option. Which wouldnt just mean an on/off switch but also ensuring that there are capabilities to make it viable. So probably adjusted skill gain rates, or resource gathering rates etc, so you dont spend 3 months building a character and have them die one accidentally because you spilled juice on your keyboard during a fight.

Thanks, and I really appreciate the transparency you guys are showing here.

Logrus_CS · December 2014

We are trying to steer clear of becoming a stat fest or item based game.

One of the ways we are doing that is keeping item properties straight forward. So what you get by adding something is obvious in benefit, and function.

Another thing is to control the total variations and the interactions. That way things don't get insane, and two characters could use the same base item quite differently.

For example, a castle guard, in full plate mail using a spear, would probably go for something a bit more hefty. So adding weight to increase the damage, with a slight hit on the swing rate.

Then say a character like the Viper prince from game of thrones. Light leather armor, for mobility, using a spear for finesse, would probably go for something lighter, for an increase in attack speed.

So you get the same idea of the spear but used differently, and tweaked to offer best advantage to the user.

Of course thats just a really basic example, but it conveys the spirit of the design.

Im a fan of simple complexity. The behavior behind the scenes is pretty complicated, but what is presented to the player is easy to understand and straight forward, so you don't require them to have spread sheet and calculator to get dressed.

A new player can pick up a sword or piece of armor and see, hey plate gives me more protection than leather, but it slows me down more as well. Or This heavy sword hits harder but I cant swing it as fast.

At the same time there are number junkies who want to squeeze every benefit out of things to get that absolute. For them the customization allows tailoring items to their game play, ( and since everyone will have access to our code in that department they can crunch numbers to their hearts content)

One last and very important part of the design is item usefulness. If you compare 2 different items then better or worse is relative the the character, skills, and playstyle. As with the example above the castle guard wouldnt find much benefit in the faster spear, and the other guy wouldnt find much benefit in the slower but higher damage weapon.

For certain types of crafting I've always found that if you know what you are aiming for, randomization can be frustrating. So there's a clear path to create exactly what you want or at least a clear path of progression toward that goal. Improvements allow for experimentation and randomness, but are optional. Consider them the crafter trying out a few what ifs to see what happens.

Not sure if its up on the community wiki yet but it probably will be as soon as it gets to the test server.

CrazKanuk · December 2014

Optional Permadeath Ruleset is a reality. Sweet!!! Sorry to make more work for you guys, though

Since it appears you're trending towards the Story Editor still, can you tell us a little about the story editor and what that's going to look and feel like.

Remember peeps! Back this sucker here so that dumbasses like me can create a server with deep, rich stories filled with toilet humour and shenanigans.

Logrus_CS · December 2014

Thats a question that I can honestly say I have no idea. I'm more of a systems guy. I'm thinking it would be something like a quest builder, and behavior modifier. So you can put dialog, objectives, and reactions in place to create a story. (In addition to expanding the npc take over capabilities.) I suspect that the story tools will be HEAVILY influenced by admin backer input since they will ultimately be using the tools. There's already a god power wishlist thread going on the citadel forums outlining stuff people want.

CrazKanuk · December 2014

Originally posted by Logrus_CS
Thats a question that I can honestly say I have no idea. I'm more of a systems guy. I'm thinking it would be something like a quest builder, and behavior modifier. So you can put dialog, objectives, and reactions in place to create a story. (In addition to expanding the npc take over capabilities.) I suspect that the story tools will be HEAVILY influenced by admin backer input since they will ultimately be using the tools. There's already a god power wishlist thread going on the citadel forums outlining stuff people want.

Whaaaaaat? You mean you're not the only one working on this project? That's just crazy talk! How are you going to feed everyone with only 80k? Gawd! Would you people please back this project already? Think about the children!

DustyMonkeyGames · January 2016

Crafting and resources gathering is something that I really need to do some practical research on in Shards Online!

Yorlik · April 2016

The best thing is, that it is entirely moddable - not only can you make new recipes, but easily create new crafts and change all the mechanics in it. E.g. on my project we changed the ores to be clustered in regions in a way that iron, coal or tin and others can not be found everywhere which is an addition to the existing system.

Sid_Vicious · May 2016

Its a bit disappointing to here that it will be another 'gather mats and click then wait' crafting game.. I was hoping for more of a game within the game.. so you have to pay attention and you have to play it well to craft good items. (like vanguards crafting..)... and group harvesting benefits would be cool too.

The complexity seems interesting though.

Logrus_CS · May 2016

Fishing will be more of the interactive mini game type of harvesting rather than the click and wait mechanics.

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