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Character customization - The case of braindead monkeys
Neherun
Member UncommonPosts: 280
Do you remember those post second millennium MMORPG titles that offered a deep character customization? I can, barely. Since 2005 all MMORPG titles have taken the approach of casualizing the character progression to the state where players don't really have to put a second thought on how to level their character. Leveling up used to mean you had a decision ahead of you, where do I put my stat points, shall I increase my strength or wisdom? What about my skill points, should I level up this spell or increase my proficiency with swords? Where has that gone?
I understand someone's argument behind it when they state " I want to be sure not to ruin my character by placing my stats wrong", but on the other hand I do not. Anyone with average intelligence can theorycraft a viable character knowing what the basic attributes do and what skills do. The real issue behind the problem is: "Do I actually bother to spend any time learning the mechanics of this RPG?" The act of gimping your character is barely an issue now that the "re-spec" feature has been implemented into every single MMORPG out there. Was that truly a bad thing? Rest in peace all my beloved one hundred experiemental characters that turned out to be a gimp in Shadowbane.
It's simple, today's MMORPG crowd has gotten to the sloth state. Everything should come to them with no effort, as long as they put time into it. Their character has to grow substantially more powerful every now and then, or they won't see any progression behind their character. Which leads how the industry handles character customization these days: Catering to the instant gratification crowd.
Nowadays when people attach RPG to MMO it doesn't even include the sentence "customizing your character". To most people it used to be the most interesting aspect of RPGs, and one of the most fun parts. It's actually amusing how much Diablo 3 was bashed for following the trend of having simplified character customization. And how it wasn't truly a sequel to Diablo 2, which had a proper character customization. But when it comes to MMORPGs, you can do exactly that, simplified character customization and nobody bats an eye.
Give me back my character customization. Give me skills to choose from, attributes to place stats into, and let me make my own decisions. Let me try to build a truly unique character that is powerful or up-to-par with the games meta and allow me to compete with MY character, not your template. I don't feel proud of my MMO characters anymore, just because they are not mine, and that's what bores me even in FFA PvP games. I could play a themepark if I could have a deep character customization, eventhough I am avid sandbox FFA PvP fan.
"This is my character, there are many like it, but this one is mine."
Comments
"A man comes on the MMO telling me how great my game could be...
but he can't be smart cause he doesn't like the same game as me."
...Can't get no... satisfaction... Can't get no... MMO action!
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
"A man with no real say often finds wisdom in poetry, for he has no point."
Neither does a troll.
But since you're so much 'smarter' than all the other MMO players out there you must have been dwelling on the metaphysical answers to being instead of picking up on the obvious-to-everyone-else point...
Just because people like different games and games systems than you like, doesn't make them any less intelligent.
Your post is a thinly veiled insult and nothing more than trolling...
How's THAT for a point?
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Edit: Apparently you edited the post. And how exactly is that an insult? Anyone that is not hindered on their level of intelligence for a reason or another is capable of customizing a character IF they actually put any effort into it. This does not mean that if somebody does not like a customization system they are somewhat less capable, the point was that people who argue that deep character customization kills their character are lazy. The point of the argument is that today's instant gratification market follows the trend where people do not have to put any effort in creating their characters, and personally I hate the system. If some people like it, fine, but I'd like to hear an actual argument for such a system.
Edited to get the actual proper wording through for reading comprehension.
Edit #2:
"I understand someone's argument behind it when they state " I want to be sure not to ruin my character by placing my stats wrong", but on the other hand I do not. Anyone with average intelligence can theorycraft a viable character knowing what the basic attributes do and what skills do. The real issue behind the problem is: "Do I actually bother to spend any time learning the mechanics of this RPG?" The act of gimping your character is barely an issue now that the "re-spec" feature has been implemented into every single MMORPG out there. Was that truly a bad thing? Rest in peace all my beloved one hundred experiemental characters that turned out to be a gimp in Shadowbane."
Just for clarification, this is not an insult or a troll. It's an argument against lack of character customization constructed of a simple formula.
1st part: What's the original argument and it's state of agreability
2nd part: Disagreement with the original argument
3rd part: Tackling the core of the flaw in the original argument (States that next to anyone can theorycraft a viable character with effort) using a passive-aggressive stance to promote the arguments statement
4th part: Explaining the reason for your argument (In this case referring to the issue that people just do not bother these days)
5th part: Placing additional viewpoints behind your argument in order to increase its creditability and closing words.
From your original post...
"I understand someone's argument behind it when they state " I want to be sure not to ruin my character by placing my stats wrong", but on the other hand I do not. Anyone with average intelligence can theorycraft a viable character knowing what the basic attributes do and what skills do."
You can't say, "I like character customizations" without drawing in to question the oppositions intelligence? You can't fathom a reason for simplified character creation that does not involve lack of comprehension of said system?
Apparently the first sentence explaining that you understand why someone wouldn't want to spend hours researching the system and then twiddling bits to make their character before they can even play the game was a lie. You don't understand since the first reason you turn to is a lack of comprehension rather than such a low level of interest as to present a block to potential customers... the only people developers actually listen to (as opposed to armchair pundit game designers)
Instead how about doing something productive and suggesting a simplified entry into the game that can be unfolded at break points along the characters career that provide the same amount of customization depth without the level of opacity that requiring it all up front has already illustrated in many games to date?
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
As I mentioned in the edited post: It's not a question of intelligence. That's exactly the point that it does not decrease the desire of entering the game since nobody will feel secluded. But to the argument of spending hours planning prior to actually hopping into the game is exactly the reason I mentioned respeccing. The whole point of the process is that you possibly cannot know what's to come. Sure, you can plan ahead pre-release of a game and have a character template ready to test whether it actually works, but that doesn't block a potential customer from hopping into the game, enjoying it, placing stats here and there and as he reaches max level to realize that his character is somewhat weak in comparison. All he has to do is re-spec his character, how he goes about from there on is well, his choice. But if the person who respecs his character does not bother to stop for a second to think how he is about to do it and makes yet another weak build, is that actually a flaw in the game's system, or is it out of pure laziness of the said player?
You simply cannot have the customization depth without deep mechanics tied to characters attributes and skill(s) (levels). Personally I think the old model had exactly the one flaw; You had to plan it all ahead. But that was simply because once the choices had been made, there was no turning back. It was either a reroll or you stick with the character. Nowadays complete unoptional rerolls are out of the question, I agree with that. But the respec system fixes this completely, if its affordable or cheap.
As you said, it has been illustrated in many games up to date. People did not feel overwhelmed when they hopped into the games that had deep character customizations back then. They were more in lines of intrigue, wondering what does everything do and testing out next to everything. I remember playing myself and reading twice what does strength stat exactly mean to my character, and then the thought occured that if I have 5 attribute points per level, and the max level is 100, how much STR stat do I actually need? And I wasn't the only one, that's for certain. I didn't have a thought of min-maxing back in those days, I did not look for best-in-slot gear priorhand from a website or have an excel sheet ready. I just played the game, making choices here and there. That's most likely the entry level scenario for everyone, especially now that many entry-level players to MMORPGs have yet played such a game.
I too found WoW's talent system intriguing, while the customization wasn't so visible you had tiny bit of saying how to make your character. But I do remember my first level achieved in beta and staring at the screen where it read what stats I had gained. I immediately scratched my head thinking why wasn't I able to choose which stats I want, why on earth I couldn't place them myself.
Dungeons & Dragons Online
Vanguard
Guild Wars
Rift
The Secret World
Guild Wars 2
All have deep character customization. GW and TSW have so much of it they trump many old MMOs.
If it is not for a lack of intelligence then why not spend the 1 or 2 mouse clicks to make the OP(and the group he represents) happy?
It seems to me that would be the smarter route here seeeing unless they really are aiming for the low IQ it wouldnt cost more then a few mouse clicks to complete the lvl up process. And even just that a simple few clicks can make or break the idea of it being my char and me thinking that it was me who helped make it what it is..
Not to mention there could always be an "auto level" button! A single click for you hours of enjoyment for me. One cant go wrong here.
And to bash this very core mechanic.... I dont even know what to say. It is almost like you dont want us(the OP's group) to have even that much fun or play games with us!
You sir are what makes -bad community-
Somewhere the OP has a great point, character customisation is missing in most games and instnt respecs turn me away from character immersion... That is one of the reasons why i turned to ESO again... Atleast there is a lot of character customisation while leveling...
i can not see how people that play MMOs would not love to see more character customisation and differentation as for me that is the chore of a good (mmo)RPG. Having character respects is a different discussion, i can see how after 100s of hours of play finding out you could have done things different and ended with a better stronger character does frustrate people.
So my solution would be, step away from instant respecs and make people work hard for them. For example(simplified) , you have to unlearn 3 skills and learn 3 different skills in a game where you have a total of 25 skills, so you are changing 12% of your character, this would mean you first need to gain12% of your total XP required to reach max level to unlearn skills, and after that it takes you another 12% of that total xp gained from lvl1 to max to train those new skills... Same trick for changing stats or whatever form of character advancement a game has..
it would be more like in real live, by doing different things you get better in them slowly, while getting worse at the things you dont train on a daily base..
i think this would sattisfy most MMO players...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I don't like too much character customization because I don't want to optimize too much. I want there to be some decisions, but I don't want to end up in situations where I have to pick between more damage so that I'm better in a group or more survivability so that I'm better solo. Those kind of decisions don't increase my options, it's a decision that's going to decrease my options for the rest of the game.
Games try to give variety with builds but then you have problems with pvp balance for example. Min maxing guides inevitably mean that many options boil down to a few, or to quote poetry as you seem to hold it in high esteem:
An apprentice sees many possibilities, the master sees just one
While that may be the case in simple formulas, it's been almost 12 years of Shadowbane and people are still arguing over build efficiencies and effectiveness of x builds. That's because the games character format allows such deep customization at the cost of something, and there is no such thing as optimal balance. The PvP is completely in balance and its the player skill that matters, and when it comes to rock,paper,scissors game, its more in lines of Sheldon Cooper's " Scissors cuts paper, paper covers rock, rock crushes lizard, lizard poisons Spock, Spock smashes scissors, scissors decapitates lizard, lizard eats paper, paper disproves Spock, Spock vaporizes rock, and as it always has, rock crushes scissors." Why? The character customization allows next to infinite amount of options to go forwards.
Just used that as an example. Character customization, when done correctly includes so many variables for a character that with sacrificing something they gain something. When character customization is completely about adding to the power, its easy to find the solution which "points" in the customization allow most character growth in terms of power, hence we end up with these optimized "FOTM" builds. But if by adding x you lose y, then there's next to impossible to find the optimal build. You'll have the average "This cannot go wrong" build. but that one is far from the strongest build. In fact, that's what in SB people called "average."
But thats the basis of it. Then comes possible skill points, gear choices (assuming the game has gear choices, not only straight forward gear upgrades), sub-class choices, expertise choices, discipline choices, it goes further and further. But basic stats is a major deal, how can I create a battle-mage if I am not capable of wearing heavy armor, investing points into melee strength based damage and have enough health?
Have you seriously never played an MMO that doesn't have heavy vs. light armor, and doesn't give you any stat points when you level up? That's really not the only way MMOs do the combat-related side or character customization. Not to mention that you're totally ignoring the aesthetic side of character customization - customizing your character's body, coloration, looks of clothing, mount, pets, housing, faction membership, relationships with NPCs...
We should be careful when saying making decisions because i have yet to see a game outside of ffxi that decision means anything.
These so called Tree designs are a complete joke,they give you choice to allot points but the dev knows full well you are NEVER going to achieve anything they don't want you to achieve so it is 100% meaningless.
Also if you have a decision to say go for Ice damage or Fire damage what does it matter if the enemy you fight does not have any elemental properties,it is again then a shallow design meaning your choice again means nothing.
There is a reason players for YEARS have gone the min/max route when choice comes into play,it is because there is NOTHING to accomplish unless you maximize,it is ALWAYS going to be the most efficient way to design your player.
I think players simply don't understand simple math.
removing 5 damage to add 5 health does what?Devs have fights designed based on you maximizing,they don't want players O/P'd.So by removing damage sure you might have 1 more hit survival but you also prolong a fight 1 more hit ,so you have accomplished NOTHING.Then you get players thinking ok i will give up 15 damage for 15 defense,again that hp might give you 1 turn of added health but it prolongs the fight 1 more turn meaning you take more damage so again meaningless.
EVERY single person should have played FFXI vanilla,then they would understand what a quality design is all about,then we would have more people bombarding devs with "we will not accept your shallow design" fix it or we don't support you.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I just can't adapt to todays generic casual friendly MMOs.
When i was playing Anarchy Online (2003 - 2008) character customization wasn't exactly rocket science,
but you had to read guides and wiki to understand how everything worked in order to plan your build.
Farming the items necessary for your build to function was hard work and took some time too.
In the end you were rewarded with a more or less unique and/or effective build that was fun to play for a while.
With new content and new items ingame the situation would change eventually and you had to respec to be effective.
For example the soldier class was build to use assault rifles but were able to use all types of weapons ingame.
So there where times when soldier builds specialized on dual pistols or shotguns where the better option DPS-wise.
Sadly todays MMOs leave you with no freedom of choice. In most cases your class is bound to use one single weapon type and use one type of armor.
Why all those limitations? Why can a barbarian swing a two-handed sowrd but can't even touch a dagger?!
Why is a palladin able to wear heavy plate but won't wear a robe?!
Combined with auto-distributed Ability Points and forced class skills on level up this ruines the fun for me.
And on top you get big yellow arrows on your mini map or even on the floor to lead you the way to the next person wearing a big "!" over their heads so you can grab your next quest by skipping a wall of text...
What ever the reason (WoW? PvP balance? casuals? lazy people?). I absolutely hate what time has made of a genre that was really great and promising 10 years ago.
I hate WoW and what it has done to the MMO genre.
This is another big problem of modern MMOs.
In the old days fire elementals for example were immune to fire or even got healed when hit by fire damage. This was common sense.
Today the only difference between elemental damage types is the attack animation.
It's just sad...
I hate WoW and what it has done to the MMO genre.
As a few others have pointed out, in most if not all mmos the illusion of choice is all but a complete farce. Regardless of how many choices that are available there will always be the "best" way and people will follow that prescribed path for the role they wish to play. Once that best way is discovered to deviate from that is to not get invited into groups (outside of your guild or close friends) and not to play the role to the fullest potential.
This isn't to say that choice is inherently bad, but it is extremely hard for developers to stay ahead of a community full of theorycrafters who will find every possible way to eek out maximum performance, regardless of how level things may look on paper.
Honestly, the only random factor for many mmos is how well the user actually plays.
Can you point to a handful of games that demonstrate this?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky