Its good solution for lobby games such as WoW. And since cross-server catastrophe already happened (and baddies/casuals wont let it go), theres no other band-aid than personal loot.
Personally, I wouldnt want to see this "feature" in any of real MMOs I currently play.
Its good solution for lobby games such as WoW. And since cross-server catastrophe already happened (and baddies/casuals wont let it go), theres no other band-aid than personal loot.
Personally, I wouldnt want to see this "feature" in any of real MMOs I currently play.
most MMOs are lobby games, whether they are "real" or not by your definition.
Pro - Takes away from people raging over loot they feel they should have gotten, a real pain for some people.
Con - Takes away from people raging over loot they feel they should have gotten, this kills the joy and entertainment some people get when this happens.
The only problem I have is if everything is BoP then a guildie can't help out another guildie by giving them loot they won but another guildie needed.... but then that can be a bad thing too lol.
Con - Takes away from people raging over loot they feel they should have gotten, this kills the joy and entertainment some people get when this happens.
At least no one can blame others for the disappointment.
Personal loot will make your character in slow progress of being strong. So, I have to say that I'm con to personal loot. It's better if you use free for all. You can loot valuable things that will cost much. When you guys play Dragon Nest, you will know disadvantage of personal loot and the advantage of free for all loot.
may be for you. It is a great thing for me, and those who don't want to be constrained by server boundaries.
Not really. All it provides is quicker queue times, but with the advancement in server technology, there isn't really a reason for a lot of MMOs to use it. Imagine dividing LoL's player base into 8 different servers. Think the queue times are going to change significantly? Nope. What advantage does it offer, other than a talking point for your own personal dead horse? Unless you yourself commit acts of douchebaggery, a full server queue and a cross-server queue probably wouldn't amount to much more than a minute's difference.
So long as the server has a peak and consistently active population, cross-server grouping just isn't necessary unless you literally can't fathom sitting in a queue for more than 45 seconds flat before it finds you a group. Past that, it offers no tangible benefit to the player. You don't have an objectively better experience once in the instance just because players are from different servers. More likely, the experience presents more selfish/less cooperative players.
may be for you. It is a great thing for me, and those who don't want to be constrained by server boundaries.
Not really. All it provides is quicker queue times, but with the advancement in server technology, there isn't really a reason for a lot of MMOs to use it. Imagine dividing LoL's player base into 8 different servers. Think the queue times are going to change significantly? Nope. What advantage does it offer, other than a talking point for your own personal dead horse? Unless you yourself commit acts of douchebaggery, a full server queue and a cross-server queue probably wouldn't amount to much more than a minute's difference.
So long as the server has a peak and consistently active population, cross-server grouping just isn't necessary unless you literally can't fathom sitting in a queue for more than 45 seconds flat before it finds you a group. Past that, it offers no tangible benefit to the player. You don't have an objectively better experience once in the instance just because players are from different servers. More likely, the experience presents more selfish/less cooperative players.
Did you really just try to compare League of Legend queue times with a themepark holy trinity dungeon queue times?
How do i put this....you do realize that 1 of the above games have a constrained structure that the groups must be formed in and the other does not right?
may be for you. It is a great thing for me, and those who don't want to be constrained by server boundaries.
Not really. All it provides is quicker queue times, but with the advancement in server technology, there isn't really a reason for a lot of MMOs to use it. Imagine dividing LoL's player base into 8 different servers. Think the queue times are going to change significantly? Nope. What advantage does it offer, other than a talking point for your own personal dead horse? Unless you yourself commit acts of douchebaggery, a full server queue and a cross-server queue probably wouldn't amount to much more than a minute's difference.
So long as the server has a peak and consistently active population, cross-server grouping just isn't necessary unless you literally can't fathom sitting in a queue for more than 45 seconds flat before it finds you a group. Past that, it offers no tangible benefit to the player. You don't have an objectively better experience once in the instance just because players are from different servers. More likely, the experience presents more selfish/less cooperative players.
Did you really just try to compare League of Legend queue times with a themepark holy trinity dungeon queue times?
How do i put this....you do realize that 1 of the above games have a constrained structure that the groups must be formed in and the other does not right?
You missed the entire point. The game could've been WoW, the point holds. A healthy player base, focused onto separate servers, isn't going to result in extreme queue times. If you divide the WoW playerbase (along timezone guidelines) evenly across servers that aren't allowed to cross-group, that doesn't automatically mean the queue system will become broken. Folks will still queue, queues will still pop. A cross-server grouping mechanic for a failing or niche MMO, I can understand. But a widespread one? One that boasts over half a million players? WoW, with millions of players? Really? You think not allowing players to group across servers is going to result in folks waiting around 30 minutes to run a dungeon?
His argument for cross-server grouping has little merit other than the aforementioned beating of his own horse.
EDIT- And before we get into this argument, I know queues in a holy trinity game are longer because some roles (tank, healer) aren't as played as DPS. And to that I say: that isn't a population problem. That just means that some of your roles/classes suck. You can't tell me it's unavoidable that, out of thousands of players, you will never have enough healers to make queues work without cross-server grouping. That just means your healer class sucks to play. Make a better healer class, or do away with that role and come up with something better. Cross-server grouping is a bandaid fix to a much deeper problem at that point. And I dunno about you, but in my job, we look for solutions to the real issue, not some duct tape.
The only reason i like personal loot, is the fact that i don't get to have people need on my gear. It still does not change anything on the amount of gear i get what so ever also.
Before the personal loot, i could run 1 or 2 dungeons with no gear drop for me at all, sure if everyone rolled greed because nothing good dropped i could have had the chance to get something to sell to the vendor for a bit of gold or silver but other then that it is the same.
The thing it help to get fix is the people that roll need on gear for other class or spec because they are mad at people or those that roll need just to get items to DE or to sell for gold because they are poor or just trolls. Just today in trade chat there was people angry at hunters that keep rolling need on daggers and other items that had intel because they wanted to sell the items for gold ( low level dungeons that still has the need or greed option in them ).
may be for you. It is a great thing for me, and those who don't want to be constrained by server boundaries.
Not really. All it provides is quicker queue times, but with the advancement in server technology, there isn't really a reason for a lot of MMOs to use it. Imagine dividing LoL's player base into 8 different servers. Think the queue times are going to change significantly? Nope. What advantage does it offer, other than a talking point for your own personal dead horse? Unless you yourself commit acts of douchebaggery, a full server queue and a cross-server queue probably wouldn't amount to much more than a minute's difference.
So long as the server has a peak and consistently active population, cross-server grouping just isn't necessary unless you literally can't fathom sitting in a queue for more than 45 seconds flat before it finds you a group. Past that, it offers no tangible benefit to the player. You don't have an objectively better experience once in the instance just because players are from different servers. More likely, the experience presents more selfish/less cooperative players.
Did you really just try to compare League of Legend queue times with a themepark holy trinity dungeon queue times?
How do i put this....you do realize that 1 of the above games have a constrained structure that the groups must be formed in and the other does not right?
You missed the entire point. The game could've been WoW, the point holds. A healthy player base, focused onto separate servers, isn't going to result in extreme queue times. If you divide the WoW playerbase (along timezone guidelines) evenly across servers that aren't allowed to cross-group, that doesn't automatically mean the queue system will become broken. Folks will still queue, queues will still pop. A cross-server grouping mechanic for a failing or niche MMO, I can understand. But a widespread one? One that boasts over half a million players? WoW, with millions of players? Really? You think not allowing players to group across servers is going to result in folks waiting around 30 minutes to run a dungeon?
His argument for cross-server grouping has little merit other than the aforementioned beating of his own horse.
EDIT- And before we get into this argument, I know queues in a holy trinity game are longer because some roles (tank, healer) aren't as played as DPS. And to that I say: that isn't a population problem. That just means that some of your roles/classes suck. You can't tell me it's unavoidable that, out of thousands of players, you will never have enough healers to make queues work without cross-server grouping. That just means your healer class sucks to play. Make a better healer class, or do away with that role and come up with something better. Cross-server grouping is a bandaid fix to a much deeper problem at that point. And I dunno about you, but in my job, we look for solutions to the real issue, not some duct tape.
No one is saying in a holy trinity themepark queue times can't/won't work without cross server. But to say it won't have an affect if you take out cross server is to be as ignorant as you possibly can be. There is always a shortage of tanks and healers. Always. This has nothing to do with the necessity to make better healing classes at all either. Most people just like killing things more than they like taking damage or healing others and thats how it will always be. Not to mention tanking/healing are more stressful than dpsing which is just yet another reason why most people would prefer damage dealing classes versus healing or tanking ones.
All that aside, the moment WoW added cross server to dungeon queues, it improved queue times for low/medium population servers, it improved queue times if you were playing in during non-primetime hours. It also vastly improved the queue times of all the dungeons in previous expansions.The main situation where it did -not- improve queue times is if you were on a crowded/popular server during prime time as a dps.
Most other situations/servers it was a huge improvement. Which just so happens to represent the vast majority of other situations/people. So they kept it. They tried to entice more tanks(and sometimes healers) with pets and things with their call to arms bonus packs and it helped to a degree. But as I said, you're always going to have a lack of tanks/healers cross server or no, and to say taking out cross server would have no detrimental affect is ludicrous.
Not to mention all of this has no bearing on the current topic anyway.
All that aside, the moment WoW added cross server to dungeon queues, it improved queue times for low/medium population servers, it improved queue times if you were playing in during non-primetime hours. It also vastly improved the queue times of all the dungeons in previous expansions.The main situation where it did -not- improve queue times is if you were on a crowded/popular server during prime time as a dps.
Most other situations/servers it was a huge improvement. Which just so happens to represent the vast majority of other situations/people. So they kept it. They tried to entice more tanks(and sometimes healers) with pets and things with their call to arms bonus packs and it helped to a degree. But as I said, you're always going to have a lack of tanks/healers cross server or no, and to say taking out cross server would have no detrimental affect is ludicrous.
Not to mention all of this has no bearing on the current topic anyway.
I'm sorry, but I don't buy that healer/tank classes just have to deal because they cannot be improved. The Warrior Priest from WAR comes to mind. I loved playing that class, as a healer. But it was because I was still in the action, not standing in a corner cowering from mobs and spamming HoTs and Direct Heals. Hel in Smite (addmitedly a MOBA, but still a class-based game) is another fun healer with her stance switching, CC-cleansing, movement speed buffing, enemy-resistance debuffing powers. I've not since played any healing class in a true MMO because they all suck, relatively speaking.
I never said it wouldn't change queue times. I said, within a healthy population divided according to time zones, I believe the difference is negligible enough to warrant leaving it out in order to facilitate better actions from players. Ninja looting runs rampant when players know they will never see the other players again and those players can never spread word that they're not to be trusted. Douchebaggery of all kinds does. Anonymity breeds it, and there's only so many ways you can battle it online. Placing all 500,000 of your players into the same pool for random groups is not one of those ways. I see so many folks saying, "I don't want to interact because so many players are asshats." To that I say: Yea, because there's literally no way they can be held responsible for their actions in today's MMOs and they know it. It's lunacy, and it's not even a surprise; humans work this way everywhere before and after the invention of MMOs.
Systems upon systems upon systems implemented by devs will never work to prevent such asshattery. Systems can be gamed. Systems will be gamed. Tying a player's account to an identity is the only way to reliably prevent such actions. It won't change human nature in a competitive arena (PvE gear grinds are, in a way, competitive), but neither do laws and regulations implemented by governments. Neither do rules in sports. However, these rules and regulations hold folks accountable, and that's the trick.
But you're right, this is moving away from the thread topic.
Originally posted by jdizzle2k13 Better than being ninja'd.The only problem I have is if everything is BoP then a guildie can't help out another guildie by giving them loot they won but another guildie needed.... but then that can be a bad thing too lol.
That is a great point, too
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Forgrimm Originally posted by AlBQuirkyWhile it sounds nice on paper, this is yet another way of separating player interactions in an MMO. Rolling for loot was another way players interacted. MMOs used to be about interacting with other players, for good or bad. Basically about getting along and finding solutions amongst the players. Were there cheaters (choose "need" instead of "greed" on a loot roll)? Of course. This is where reputation came into play. Choose "need" enough times and players would stop grouping with you. But no. Players today have lost the ability to "work things out" and run crying to the developers to "fix it!" Well done
That all went out the window once cross-server grouping became available. Now people can act like idiots through the whole run and roll need on every single drop without consequence because no one in the group will ever see that person again. That's why personal loot is a good thing. There were people acting like idiots and taking whatever loot they could in groups way before cross server grouping and WoW.
This has been a problem that has plagued MMOs since the beginning and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.
Personal loot is what wow needs now but this is because of what wow is now. When a server was a community and you didn't run heroics or raids with people that you'd never see again personal loot was not needed. That your actions in any raid or 5 man would filter out to your closed pool of potential raiding partners was enough of an incentive to not be a dick for rolling. With the way shit is now? You're goddamned right you need personal fucking loot.
Originally posted by sketocafe Personal loot is what wow needs now but this is because of what wow is now. When a server was a community and you didn't run heroics or raids with people that you'd never see again personal loot was not needed. That your actions in any raid or 5 man would filter out to your closed pool of potential raiding partners was enough of an incentive to not be a dick for rolling. With the way shit is now? You're goddamned right you need personal fucking loot.
Like the person who posted above you, people were ninja'ing left and right every piece of loot they could long before cross realm LFG was invented and to pretend otherwise is to be ignorant.
Know how many times i was forced to run 10man UBRS for leather gear? Way to many fucking times to count because i had to deal with classes that wore MAIL and even some cases of warriors who wore PLATE rolling on LEATHER gear. If people could roll need on it, 50% chance they were going to roll need on it.
Don't act like this shit didn't happen just because cross-realm lfg wasn't around cause it did and if you say otherwise you damn well didn't fucking play back then.
And I dunno about you, but in my job, we look for solutions to the real issue, not some duct tape.
If duct tape works well enough, and it cost only $1.99, why should devs spend $10M for the full solution? You are aware of the 80-20 rule in business, right?
Comments
Its good solution for lobby games such as WoW. And since cross-server catastrophe already happened (and baddies/casuals wont let it go), theres no other band-aid than personal loot.
Personally, I wouldnt want to see this "feature" in any of real MMOs I currently play.
most MMOs are lobby games, whether they are "real" or not by your definition.
Pro - Takes away from people raging over loot they feel they should have gotten, a real pain for some people.
Con - Takes away from people raging over loot they feel they should have gotten, this kills the joy and entertainment some people get when this happens.
Better than being ninja'd.
The only problem I have is if everything is BoP then a guildie can't help out another guildie by giving them loot they won but another guildie needed.... but then that can be a bad thing too lol.
At least no one can blame others for the disappointment.
Not really. All it provides is quicker queue times, but with the advancement in server technology, there isn't really a reason for a lot of MMOs to use it. Imagine dividing LoL's player base into 8 different servers. Think the queue times are going to change significantly? Nope. What advantage does it offer, other than a talking point for your own personal dead horse? Unless you yourself commit acts of douchebaggery, a full server queue and a cross-server queue probably wouldn't amount to much more than a minute's difference.
So long as the server has a peak and consistently active population, cross-server grouping just isn't necessary unless you literally can't fathom sitting in a queue for more than 45 seconds flat before it finds you a group. Past that, it offers no tangible benefit to the player. You don't have an objectively better experience once in the instance just because players are from different servers. More likely, the experience presents more selfish/less cooperative players.
Did you really just try to compare League of Legend queue times with a themepark holy trinity dungeon queue times?
How do i put this....you do realize that 1 of the above games have a constrained structure that the groups must be formed in and the other does not right?
You missed the entire point. The game could've been WoW, the point holds. A healthy player base, focused onto separate servers, isn't going to result in extreme queue times. If you divide the WoW playerbase (along timezone guidelines) evenly across servers that aren't allowed to cross-group, that doesn't automatically mean the queue system will become broken. Folks will still queue, queues will still pop. A cross-server grouping mechanic for a failing or niche MMO, I can understand. But a widespread one? One that boasts over half a million players? WoW, with millions of players? Really? You think not allowing players to group across servers is going to result in folks waiting around 30 minutes to run a dungeon?
His argument for cross-server grouping has little merit other than the aforementioned beating of his own horse.
EDIT- And before we get into this argument, I know queues in a holy trinity game are longer because some roles (tank, healer) aren't as played as DPS. And to that I say: that isn't a population problem. That just means that some of your roles/classes suck. You can't tell me it's unavoidable that, out of thousands of players, you will never have enough healers to make queues work without cross-server grouping. That just means your healer class sucks to play. Make a better healer class, or do away with that role and come up with something better. Cross-server grouping is a bandaid fix to a much deeper problem at that point. And I dunno about you, but in my job, we look for solutions to the real issue, not some duct tape.
Edit : voted personal Loot!
Reason :
The only reason i like personal loot, is the fact that i don't get to have people need on my gear. It still does not change anything on the amount of gear i get what so ever also.
Before the personal loot, i could run 1 or 2 dungeons with no gear drop for me at all, sure if everyone rolled greed because nothing good dropped i could have had the chance to get something to sell to the vendor for a bit of gold or silver but other then that it is the same.
The thing it help to get fix is the people that roll need on gear for other class or spec because they are mad at people or those that roll need just to get items to DE or to sell for gold because they are poor or just trolls. Just today in trade chat there was people angry at hunters that keep rolling need on daggers and other items that had intel because they wanted to sell the items for gold ( low level dungeons that still has the need or greed option in them ).
No one is saying in a holy trinity themepark queue times can't/won't work without cross server. But to say it won't have an affect if you take out cross server is to be as ignorant as you possibly can be. There is always a shortage of tanks and healers. Always. This has nothing to do with the necessity to make better healing classes at all either. Most people just like killing things more than they like taking damage or healing others and thats how it will always be. Not to mention tanking/healing are more stressful than dpsing which is just yet another reason why most people would prefer damage dealing classes versus healing or tanking ones.
All that aside, the moment WoW added cross server to dungeon queues, it improved queue times for low/medium population servers, it improved queue times if you were playing in during non-primetime hours. It also vastly improved the queue times of all the dungeons in previous expansions.The main situation where it did -not- improve queue times is if you were on a crowded/popular server during prime time as a dps.
Most other situations/servers it was a huge improvement. Which just so happens to represent the vast majority of other situations/people. So they kept it. They tried to entice more tanks(and sometimes healers) with pets and things with their call to arms bonus packs and it helped to a degree. But as I said, you're always going to have a lack of tanks/healers cross server or no, and to say taking out cross server would have no detrimental affect is ludicrous.
Not to mention all of this has no bearing on the current topic anyway.
I'm sorry, but I don't buy that healer/tank classes just have to deal because they cannot be improved. The Warrior Priest from WAR comes to mind. I loved playing that class, as a healer. But it was because I was still in the action, not standing in a corner cowering from mobs and spamming HoTs and Direct Heals. Hel in Smite (addmitedly a MOBA, but still a class-based game) is another fun healer with her stance switching, CC-cleansing, movement speed buffing, enemy-resistance debuffing powers. I've not since played any healing class in a true MMO because they all suck, relatively speaking.
I never said it wouldn't change queue times. I said, within a healthy population divided according to time zones, I believe the difference is negligible enough to warrant leaving it out in order to facilitate better actions from players. Ninja looting runs rampant when players know they will never see the other players again and those players can never spread word that they're not to be trusted. Douchebaggery of all kinds does. Anonymity breeds it, and there's only so many ways you can battle it online. Placing all 500,000 of your players into the same pool for random groups is not one of those ways. I see so many folks saying, "I don't want to interact because so many players are asshats." To that I say: Yea, because there's literally no way they can be held responsible for their actions in today's MMOs and they know it. It's lunacy, and it's not even a surprise; humans work this way everywhere before and after the invention of MMOs.
Systems upon systems upon systems implemented by devs will never work to prevent such asshattery. Systems can be gamed. Systems will be gamed. Tying a player's account to an identity is the only way to reliably prevent such actions. It won't change human nature in a competitive arena (PvE gear grinds are, in a way, competitive), but neither do laws and regulations implemented by governments. Neither do rules in sports. However, these rules and regulations hold folks accountable, and that's the trick.
But you're right, this is moving away from the thread topic.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
There were people acting like idiots and taking whatever loot they could in groups way before cross server grouping and WoW.
This has been a problem that has plagued MMOs since the beginning and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.
Like the person who posted above you, people were ninja'ing left and right every piece of loot they could long before cross realm LFG was invented and to pretend otherwise is to be ignorant.
Know how many times i was forced to run 10man UBRS for leather gear? Way to many fucking times to count because i had to deal with classes that wore MAIL and even some cases of warriors who wore PLATE rolling on LEATHER gear. If people could roll need on it, 50% chance they were going to roll need on it.
Don't act like this shit didn't happen just because cross-realm lfg wasn't around cause it did and if you say otherwise you damn well didn't fucking play back then.
If duct tape works well enough, and it cost only $1.99, why should devs spend $10M for the full solution? You are aware of the 80-20 rule in business, right?
it sucked being a cloth wearer in raids, lots of mages/locks/priests and caster for necks/rings/trinkets
with personal loot? i could go and gear up a warlock while playing with a mage friend
i remember when leveling my druid....and a friend rogue wanted to tag alone ....ugh....