Originally posted by Scot You can sum up what the OP wants in one word...variety. That's a bit in short supply these days when MMOs have to be on rails that lead to railway station Cash Shop.
BINGO.. Games today are nothing more then a breadcrumb trail of predictable outcomes.. Where is the unpredictable variety? When I walk into a zone, I should have options galore.. Where are the roaming mobs that make "sitting" on the road dangerous while you eat dinner.. I don't get the feeling that a zone is alive, but instead are nothing but pockets of mobs sitting and waiting to be killed..
The problem with having at least 2 dungeons for every 5 levels is that few people actually bothers to play low level dungeons.
In the old days leveling was slow so getting good gear for your current level was important. The content was harder as well so you needed every edge possible.
Today people max out a character in weeks if not faster, and all dungeon gear you get one day is worthless the next.
You could make leveling very slow again, but maybe it would be better to get rid off levels altogether and have a lower power gap instead like many pen and paper RPGs (Runequest, BRP, Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, Warhammer fantast RPG to mention a few).
As for quests I agree with you completely, let just get rid of the none epic grind and make quests meaningful and fun.
Also I think it is time to up the difficulty somewhat. Today there is really no need to make your character good gearwise or buildwise until you hit the endgame and neither is really learning to play the game. It is surely one of the reasons so many players quit new MMOs when they hit levelcap, the difficulty goes from walk in the park to actually hard instead of a slow and steady increase as you discover more of the world.
My feeling is that leveling in MMOs have become a rather boring tutorial for the endgame and that is just wrong, the game should be fun all the time and challenge the players as they play.That said, the open world of a game should not be impossible for most players but it shouldn't be very easy either.
Originally posted by Faelsun Stop allowing advertisers and gaming sites like this one who hype the hell out of obviously bad formulaic games.
If you are getting hyped for a game without actually checking it up that is your own fault. You can't forbid people to advertise their product and you can't believe everything people tell you.
And there are ways to try out most games before buying them, stop giving money to companies just based on advertising.
Originally posted by Scot You can sum up what the OP wants in one word...variety. That's a bit in short supply these days when MMOs have to be on rails that lead to railway station Cash Shop.
Yes, I focused on questing a bit more because I wanted to make the point that quests should be epic and not meaningless tasks. I think during the levelling process there should be something like 8-10 or more DIFFERENT things you can do - questing, mob grinding, dungeons, crafting, collections, pvp, mini games + more stuff. Everything should contribute to levelling up.
Originally posted by Loke666
The problem with having at least 2 dungeons for every 5 levels is that few people actually bothers to play low level dungeons.
In the old days leveling was slow so getting good gear for your current level was important. The content was harder as well so you needed every edge possible.
Today people max out a character in weeks if not faster, and all dungeon gear you get one day is worthless the next.
You could make leveling very slow again, but maybe it would be better to get rid off levels altogether and have a lower power gap instead like many pen and paper RPGs (Runequest, BRP, Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, Warhammer fantast RPG to mention a few).
As for quests I agree with you completely, let just get rid of the none epic grind and make quests meaningful and fun.
Also I think it is time to up the difficulty somewhat. Today there is really no need to make your character good gearwise or buildwise until you hit the endgame and neither is really learning to play the game. It is surely one of the reasons so many players quit new MMOs when they hit levelcap, the difficulty goes from walk in the park to actually hard instead of a slow and steady increase as you discover more of the world.
My feeling is that leveling in MMOs have become a rather boring tutorial for the endgame and that is just wrong, the game should be fun all the time and challenge the players as they play.That said, the open world of a game should not be impossible for most players but it shouldn't be very easy either.
Yes, I want quests to be made epic. We don't need to have rims of texts of meaningless tasks which just ask us to slaughter everything in sight.
Levelling needs to be slowe down. We don't need levellnig to be fast. We need it to be FUN. If people are having a lot of fun, I don't think they would care if it takes them ages to get to max level. And if you bombard them with choices of stuff they can do, it will make the whole thing much more varied. YOu can cater to people who love aoe mob grinding, dungeon grinding, focusing on some EPIC quests, crafting, pvp, collections, achievement hunting, mini games, open world group zones, levelling raids with some rewards which you would want to keep!
Hell give people a stupid bounty board which has tasks for slaughtering everything in sight and collecting random crap for NPCs. No ned to give them any background. Task can read - Kill 1000 boars and you will get this. Simple as that.
If we are going to extremely slow levelling, might throw in some raids too during the levelling! For example, people can raid at level 20 and have some diffiult content to tackle. Appropriate rewards can be made up so that what you get in those raids you keep for a while. Not sure how, maybe raids drop items that level up with you or they unlock stuff which people can't get anywhere else.
Reuse ALL dungeons and levelling raids at max level with new mechanics and a much higher difficulty.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Yep, GuildWars 2 kinda disappoint me. They did try to change things up a little with the living world stuff. I tried to jump back in the game, it just didn't work out so well...
Frankly I do not expect anyone to come out with a world landscape that changes with the influence of both NPCs and players anytime soon, it does sounds too damn big an undertaking now. Give it 30 years, minimum, maybe.
If we put that idea aside (and AI NPCs), the rest of the stuff should be achievable in our current time. GW2 might be one of the small step to the right direction - all it needs is MORE variation instead of repeating the same event every 10 minutes, and make it so event do not contained just within a fixed area. I played Rift for a short while long ago, the rift idea also something seems pretty interesting which can be taken forward to another level. Randomized stuff, unexpected stuff, things you can't accurately write a wiki with. "Unpredictable", is where the funs at, at least that's how I see it.
And why throw dungeon grinding out when it works? Just look at Diablo ... people play the second one for 10 years for nothing but grind, combat & loot. And loot needs to be fun. Why be realistic when it can be just fun?
Just my personal opinion really. Instanced dungeon felt detached from the main game most of the time. I do play ARPG (not Diablo), but that kind of grind is quite different from MMORPG's dungeon grind. It's much tedious, require much more attention and skills. Unless you play with known friends, you don't get that kind of good quality players all the time. Instanced dungeon also creates the LFG problem, worst on games with holy trinity system - that kind of down time (or annoyance), is something I trying to avoid. Player leaving / rage quit half way also a huge issue. Plus, it is scripted.
Open world battle however, with no limited participant and not confined in a damn cave (lol) seems like a much better appeal to me. Why can't we have the epic dungeon battle take place in open world? Yes we can, and it's already available in some games. Just that we have to somehow deal with the zerg fest problem and significantly scale up the difficulty and dynamic of battle. Also turn them into random encounter rather than just fixed spawn.
As MMO player, as most of other readers I have players severals MMOS since my begining, several years ago. (Sorry for my english I'll try to do it my best). I wanted to add something to some of the things said here.
Really we need a Level System?? been looking to fill a bar of Exp?? I think our character must learn from the habilities that mobs/other players do. for example, when I played GW1 you had to chase boss skills for your character, why not a similar way for all your skills, learning skill from the mobs/players you fight. If you are a warrior, and you defeat a mob that knocks you with his shield, you can learn and train this skill.
I think this way the game experience and your character development will be more interesting.
And why throw dungeon grinding out when it works? Just look at Diablo ... people play the second one for 10 years for nothing but grind, combat & loot. And loot needs to be fun. Why be realistic when it can be just fun?
Just my personal opinion really. Instanced dungeon felt detached from the main game most of the time. I do play ARPG (not Diablo), but that kind of grind is quite different from MMORPG's dungeon grind. It's much tedious, require much more attention and skills. Unless you play with known friends, you don't get that kind of good quality players all the time. Instanced dungeon also creates the LFG problem, worst on games with holy trinity system - that kind of down time (or annoyance), is something I trying to avoid. Player leaving / rage quit half way also a huge issue. Plus, it is scripted.
Open world battle however, with no limited participant and not confined in a damn cave (lol) seems like a much better appeal to me. Why can't we have the epic dungeon battle take place in open world? Yes we can, and it's already available in some games. Just that we have to somehow deal with the zerg fest problem and significantly scale up the difficulty and dynamic of battle. Also turn them into random encounter rather than just fixed spawn.
1) Make instanced dungeon .. the main game. There is no more detachment. It is not like people (in WOW, particularly) play in the world much anyway.
2) Diablo is different from most MMO because of the combat, not because of the dungeon running aspects. Marvel Heroes is quite close to wow because of a similar style of combat.
3) LFG is not a problem .. .it is just like Diablo matching. Trinity is a result of the combat set-up. I do agree it is not that much fun. But certainly that can be changed to something like a more actiony (Diablo or other style) combat.
4) Open world has other problem .. like camping, zerg fest, no scripting, and essentially hard to have a good experience with uncontrollable number of players. Open world pve just does not work for me. I prefer a instanced anyday.
As mentioned, focusing in "quest" isn't the solution.
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Take a look at the NPCs. What are the NPCs for? Now, they are nothing but just exp and reward vending machine rooted at one place. Do players care about them? No. Do players care about what they say? No. Are they matter to you and the world? No. Do they have a life? No.
I don't want a fixed way to play a game. I don't want a fixed quest line. I am not NPC's slave, or their postman. Start any MMORPG now and you got shoved around doing errand for them. Who am I? I dunno, all I feel is that I am just another puppet running around just like everyone else.
What I envision is a true living virtual world, every NPCs have their own life, purpose, history, behavior, opinion against every players. The world runs on naturally, with randomized events happening all over the place that players can participate. Player's participation in happening will changes the world, changes how other players and NPCs opinion about you. A world that every happening matter, not you fail one thing and can retry with no consequences. A destroyed city in wars is destroyed, there is no restart. You can only re-build on the ashes.
Primary story related events also randomized around the world, players have to seek them out in the wild- or in chance, they will come at you at your least prepared time. A world where players carve their own journey and experience, not following someone else's script.
The purpose of your character need to be choosen & explained during character creation phase, who are you, what are you suppose to be doing and where are you going. Different chose result in different starting point. Not 3 starting newbie towns, not 10, not 100. But dynamic location depends on your role and current happening of the world. So you sign up as a soldier? Then you start at army camp. So you choose to be a common folks? Then you start at a village. Etc.
Why must one always be the hero? Choice of being a villain should be there. Join the dark side of the world, do what the dark lord tells you to, become the enemy of the world and other players... Oh, why must we always play as a humanoid? I choose to be a villain and I will find my path, obtaining evil power, advance into much darker creature form...
Or, just be a loner. Just live my own way, don't care about all those politics, don't care about the war. Hunting in the wild, stealing in the cities, as long as I don't get caught and thrown into the jail. Being no body should also be a choice.
With vast amount of events, and developers continue to add more along the way to provide bigger variety, preventing repetitive. Events shouldn't be just a scripted happening - but variable. So the demon attack town, this time, just a few small groups. Next time, hell know they bring war machines. Tomorrow, hell know demon king came. In chance a demonic orc came... oh wait, that's a player! Maybe next week the town is no more... Variation in events, not like what in GuildWars2 where every time the same shit at the same spot.
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The world need to split into thousands of instances to avoid zerg crowd problem, it's really immersion breaking when there are hundreds of people doing the exact same event at the same spot, till you can't even see shit on your screen.
Let just throw the idea of leveling out of the window already. If number is all players care about, what is the point we even call it MMO"RPG" and create all sort of bull shit stories? Without numbers, how are we gauge stuff like players' strength, etc? Proficiency. Proficiency on combat aspect, proficiency on crafting, proficiency on material gathering / looting. The higher your proficiency the better you perform with certain weapons or spells, the better and rarer the material you gather, the better the stuff you can craft.
The idea of dungeon grinding also need to be throw out of the window. Every MMORPG out there, as far as I played (not much) ended up with dungeon raid to earn gold, materials, or gears. It's an idea recycled for a million times over. Stop. We don't need that when we already have a dynamic world to explore.
Looting. So I need some wolf fang to craft something. Hunt wolf - oh wait, no drop. Hunt more... That's stupid. Every freaking wolf have fangs and you telling me there's "no drop"? Loot need to be realistic.
Group play, now Guild Wars 2 did the right thing of not require menu clicking with their open world events. This should extend into all aspect of the game. Just participate in happenings and get your share of glory, or get outta the way. Don't need to shout LFG anymore.
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I understand some stuff I trying to describe may be ahead of time or require much serious undertaking to be achieved. But that's my vision, my opinion of how MMORPG should be. It shouldn't just be a game where people level from 1 to 100 and nothing else matter.
I agree and you put it well.
same same..
You dude is so persistent and hard-working. Imagine, you type all of this. XD. I'll vote you as a president in the next election. I salute you
And why throw dungeon grinding out when it works? Just look at Diablo ... people play the second one for 10 years for nothing but grind, combat & loot. And loot needs to be fun. Why be realistic when it can be just fun?
Just my personal opinion really. Instanced dungeon felt detached from the main game most of the time. I do play ARPG (not Diablo), but that kind of grind is quite different from MMORPG's dungeon grind. It's much tedious, require much more attention and skills. Unless you play with known friends, you don't get that kind of good quality players all the time. Instanced dungeon also creates the LFG problem, worst on games with holy trinity system - that kind of down time (or annoyance), is something I trying to avoid. Player leaving / rage quit half way also a huge issue. Plus, it is scripted.
Open world battle however, with no limited participant and not confined in a damn cave (lol) seems like a much better appeal to me. Why can't we have the epic dungeon battle take place in open world? Yes we can, and it's already available in some games. Just that we have to somehow deal with the zerg fest problem and significantly scale up the difficulty and dynamic of battle. Also turn them into random encounter rather than just fixed spawn.
1) Make instanced dungeon .. the main game. There is no more detachment. It is not like people (in WOW, particularly) play in the world much anyway.
2) Diablo is different from most MMO because of the combat, not because of the dungeon running aspects. Marvel Heroes is quite close to wow because of a similar style of combat.
3) LFG is not a problem .. .it is just like Diablo matching. Trinity is a result of the combat set-up. I do agree it is not that much fun. But certainly that can be changed to something like a more actiony (Diablo or other style) combat.
4) Open world has other problem .. like camping, zerg fest, no scripting, and essentially hard to have a good experience with uncontrollable number of players. Open world pve just does not work for me. I prefer a instanced anyday.
Personally, if I wanted to play an instanced dungeon as the main game I wouldn't bother with MMORPGs. The closest I'd come is I'd go play smite or some other MOBA. The beautiful thing about what a MMORPGs is, or atleast should be, is the depth and persistence of the virtual world. When I first starting playing MMORPGs I felt (however briefly) like I was part of another world and instancing takes away from that in my opinion. I'm not totally against instancing and I don't mind star citizens approach to instancing but that's only because it's not feasible to have a game like that run on a single instance. Ideally I'd much prefer a single server and a single instance, it's just instances are a necessary evil.
There are a few key things that draw my attention to games.
1) Class changing on a single character. However, I would like kind of a limit depending on the race and such. Like only allowing certain races to play as certain classes, like in wow, but have them able to switch rather than level one up then switch and do it again like 10 more times. Playing through pretty much the same content 6+ times gets really old really fast imo.
2) Flight. Too many developers are lazy and don't bother and even wow is getting lazy and saying junk like "its immersion breaking" or w/e. Flight in the long run is best when you're doing the same junk over and over and over again everyday. People who object to flight obviously don't play more than 1-2 characters. Not that playing low amounts of character is bad, just some people like to experience more things.
3) Having the option to have all crafts on a single character. I really loved that rift had this option and honestly I think its worth a cash shop sink. Its completely optional but it also allows people who only like 1-2 classes to only have 1-2 classes instead of leveling other classes just because of a crafting benefit or w/e.
4) Persistent equipment. I dont really mean every peice, but I would like gear that is a pain to get but worth getting and continues to grow as new content comes out and such. For the most part, FFXI did this best with relics/mythics/empy weapons. And yes I know FFXIV has similar but XI is better since it gives the play a specific "skill" that goes along with the weapon. Of course now, they have it so you can learn the skill outside of having the weapon but the old way added a since of accomplishment and lasting effect instead of these replace wars that go on in games now.
5) Abolish questing to level. Personally, I like quests to only be scarce and meant for something important in the game like to unlock skills and/or special class specific stuff. Instances without quests are ok. Can give them bonus completion rewards like money and gear alongside exp to help the leveling. But also have exp rewarded for battlegrounds for those who just like to pvp and have dynamic events on maps like if enemy forces are invading villages and such.
And why throw dungeon grinding out when it works? Just look at Diablo ... people play the second one for 10 years for nothing but grind, combat & loot. And loot needs to be fun. Why be realistic when it can be just fun?
Just my personal opinion really. Instanced dungeon felt detached from the main game most of the time. I do play ARPG (not Diablo), but that kind of grind is quite different from MMORPG's dungeon grind. It's much tedious, require much more attention and skills. Unless you play with known friends, you don't get that kind of good quality players all the time. Instanced dungeon also creates the LFG problem, worst on games with holy trinity system - that kind of down time (or annoyance), is something I trying to avoid. Player leaving / rage quit half way also a huge issue. Plus, it is scripted.
Open world battle however, with no limited participant and not confined in a damn cave (lol) seems like a much better appeal to me. Why can't we have the epic dungeon battle take place in open world? Yes we can, and it's already available in some games. Just that we have to somehow deal with the zerg fest problem and significantly scale up the difficulty and dynamic of battle. Also turn them into random encounter rather than just fixed spawn.
1) Make instanced dungeon .. the main game. There is no more detachment. It is not like people (in WOW, particularly) play in the world much anyway.
2) Diablo is different from most MMO because of the combat, not because of the dungeon running aspects. Marvel Heroes is quite close to wow because of a similar style of combat.
3) LFG is not a problem .. .it is just like Diablo matching. Trinity is a result of the combat set-up. I do agree it is not that much fun. But certainly that can be changed to something like a more actiony (Diablo or other style) combat.
4) Open world has other problem .. like camping, zerg fest, no scripting, and essentially hard to have a good experience with uncontrollable number of players. Open world pve just does not work for me. I prefer a instanced anyday.
Personally, if I wanted to play an instanced dungeon as the main game I wouldn't bother with MMORPGs. The closest I'd come is I'd go play smite or some other MOBA. The beautiful thing about what a MMORPGs is, or atleast should be, is the depth and persistence of the virtual world. When I first starting playing MMORPGs I felt (however briefly) like I was part of another world and instancing takes away from that in my opinion. I'm not totally against instancing and I don't mind star citizens approach to instancing but that's only because it's not feasible to have a game like that run on a single instance. Ideally I'd much prefer a single server and a single instance, it's just instances are a necessary evil.
Just semantics ... if you imagine the game is not a MMORPGs, but a CORPG, everything will be fine.
And why throw dungeon grinding out when it works? Just look at Diablo ... people play the second one for 10 years for nothing but grind, combat & loot. And loot needs to be fun. Why be realistic when it can be just fun?
Just my personal opinion really. Instanced dungeon felt detached from the main game most of the time. I do play ARPG (not Diablo), but that kind of grind is quite different from MMORPG's dungeon grind. It's much tedious, require much more attention and skills. Unless you play with known friends, you don't get that kind of good quality players all the time. Instanced dungeon also creates the LFG problem, worst on games with holy trinity system - that kind of down time (or annoyance), is something I trying to avoid. Player leaving / rage quit half way also a huge issue. Plus, it is scripted.
Open world battle however, with no limited participant and not confined in a damn cave (lol) seems like a much better appeal to me. Why can't we have the epic dungeon battle take place in open world? Yes we can, and it's already available in some games. Just that we have to somehow deal with the zerg fest problem and significantly scale up the difficulty and dynamic of battle. Also turn them into random encounter rather than just fixed spawn.
1) Make instanced dungeon .. the main game. There is no more detachment. It is not like people (in WOW, particularly) play in the world much anyway.
2) Diablo is different from most MMO because of the combat, not because of the dungeon running aspects. Marvel Heroes is quite close to wow because of a similar style of combat.
3) LFG is not a problem .. .it is just like Diablo matching. Trinity is a result of the combat set-up. I do agree it is not that much fun. But certainly that can be changed to something like a more actiony (Diablo or other style) combat.
4) Open world has other problem .. like camping, zerg fest, no scripting, and essentially hard to have a good experience with uncontrollable number of players. Open world pve just does not work for me. I prefer a instanced anyday.
Personally, if I wanted to play an instanced dungeon as the main game I wouldn't bother with MMORPGs. The closest I'd come is I'd go play smite or some other MOBA. The beautiful thing about what a MMORPGs is, or atleast should be, is the depth and persistence of the virtual world. When I first starting playing MMORPGs I felt (however briefly) like I was part of another world and instancing takes away from that in my opinion. I'm not totally against instancing and I don't mind star citizens approach to instancing but that's only because it's not feasible to have a game like that run on a single instance. Ideally I'd much prefer a single server and a single instance, it's just instances are a necessary evil.
Just semantics ... if you imagine the game is not a MMORPGs, but a CORPG, everything will be fine.
So why not play a CORPG? Why redesign and redefine an entire genre? The point I was trying to make is that by making the base game an instanced dungeon you would effectively kill off the most quintessential parts of a MMORPG. That being a virtual world that's shared by thousands of players. It may be semantics but it's like gutting a plane so it can only taxi around and saying if you think of it as a car it'll be fine. I'm not trying to be a smart ass here but I really don't understand why you wouldn't just play a CORPG if that's what you wanted.
95% of MMORPG players don't even read quest text.The genre is taken over by I want max level I want best gear NOW! And my wife wants to do it SOLO! But the developers also know this so they would be brain dead to alienate 95% of their sales figures. The genre as I and the other 5% liked it is gone forever.
Quests don't fulfil design criteria enough for the modern concept of MMOs, what do you need from the cash shop when questing? XP potions maybe, but that's about it. When you are designing around a cash shop model, cash play comes first. Raid and pvp are more favoured as they need top gear which you can get or build via the cash shop.
We still have quests because we enjoy them, but don't bet on them being in MMOs in ten years time.
I want to talk about how I would go about designing an MMO if I was given the choice.
The main flaw of current generation MMOs in my opinion is how bland the actual content is and how terrible the gameplay is. MMOs sacrifice quality to achieve quantity. This in my opinion is why they are so bad and inoriginal.
Wow, Swtor, Rift, ... has GREAT gameplay. Content is all but bland. And who says (only) original is best?
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in your entire game but they are much more interactive, engaging and you know...fun? I think it would be nice of quests flowed into one massive quest chain. What's the point of doing a quest which works in isolation and once you're done with it, it's over. I would go to such an extreme to say provide 3 massive quest chains only:
Khm, farmer have problem with rats. Like in real life. What massive quest chain could come from here? i'm just fine with questing at least from above games. Only thing I (I personally) miss is I love fully voiced questing, like Swtor (snif, not any more for regular quests since last expansion .-( ), first 20 levels of Aoc, ....
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2. PVP
I'm not even minimally interested in PVP.
3. Dungeons, there should be at least 2 of these per level 5 range. Have a hardmode version of all of these at max level.
Can agree.
4. AOE Mob grinding
???
Also we don't need everything to be a massive numebr just for the sake of quantity. We don't need a billion quests, we dont need massive empty zones which just serve to waste our time. ALL MMOs can be reduced to only 100-200 hours of quality gameplay if all the crap is taken out.
Maybe, if you have time to constantly play game. Casual players would be completely lost when returning to such monstrous quest chain in middle.
Big quest chain never worked.
QUALITY OVER QUANTITY! We don't need MMOs to last 50000000000 hours only for the sake of wasting our time.
Depend on game. There were games where I have fast discovered that very act of buying it was waste of time and money.
Originally posted by Faelsun Stop allowing advertisers and gaming sites like this one who hype the hell out of obviously bad formulaic games.
If you are getting hyped for a game without actually checking it up that is your own fault. You can't forbid people to advertise their product and you can't believe everything people tell you.
And there are ways to try out most games before buying them, stop giving money to companies just based on advertising.
First of all its not my fault that this site and other sites gave SWTOR a great review almost a ten in some places, or AOC great reviews as well. I dont buy games at face value but an army of WOW addicted kids will and anyone else who doesnt know better. Because of hype and false advertisement. You are right they can hype and advertise all they want, its gaming sites giving these shitty games legitimacy with favorable reviews that leads to this problem in the first place.
You cant just admit that we have a problem, then spit in my face with that venomous attitude when I point out the obvious dude.
Just semantics ... if you imagine the game is not a MMORPGs, but a CORPG, everything will be fine.
So why not play a CORPG? Why redesign and redefine an entire genre? The point I was trying to make is that by making the base game an instanced dungeon you would effectively kill off the most quintessential parts of a MMORPG. That being a virtual world that's shared by thousands of players. It may be semantics but it's like gutting a plane so it can only taxi around and saying if you think of it as a car it'll be fine. I'm not trying to be a smart ass here but I really don't understand why you wouldn't just play a CORPG if that's what you wanted.
I do play CORPG, and you have it in reverse. It is up to the devs to determine why to redesign and redefine a genre (probably because of bigger audience?). For me, since I like CORPG, why shouldn't i play MMOs when devs make them more like CORPG?
In fact, i really don't care about the label when i choose games.
virtual world is no longer the quintessential parts of a MMORPG ... because devs want them to be more like CORPG to attract a different audience. And i would say they are successful, since I am here, and I like CORPG more.
Just semantics ... if you imagine the game is not a MMORPGs, but a CORPG, everything will be fine.
So why not play a CORPG? Why redesign and redefine an entire genre? The point I was trying to make is that by making the base game an instanced dungeon you would effectively kill off the most quintessential parts of a MMORPG. That being a virtual world that's shared by thousands of players. It may be semantics but it's like gutting a plane so it can only taxi around and saying if you think of it as a car it'll be fine. I'm not trying to be a smart ass here but I really don't understand why you wouldn't just play a CORPG if that's what you wanted.
I do play CORPG, and you have it in reverse. It is up to the devs to determine why to redesign and redefine a genre (probably because of bigger audience?). For me, since I like CORPG, why shouldn't i play MMOs when devs make them more like CORPG?
In fact, i really don't care about the label when i choose games.
virtual world is no longer the quintessential parts of a MMORPG ... because devs want them to be more like CORPG to attract a different audience. And i would say they are successful, since I am here, and I like CORPG more.
I'm not trying to tell you what to play, I have no problem if you like CORPGs and I know some MMORPGs are becoming more like a CORPG but I would argue the majority of MMORPGs still resemble MMORPGs more so than CORPGs. Even Neverwinter which is sort of getting borderline and more like the exception rather than the rule still felt more like a MMORPG rather than a CORPG.
With that said, if I'm trying to sell a car and I market it as a plane than people are going to expect it to fly. You might fool a few people and you may change the meanings of the words car and plane but at the end of the day the only reason it would have been effective to market a car as a plane is because people really wanted something that could fly. It may get more people to your dealership but I see it as very shortsighted.
Now I understand you are saying that you like CORPG better than MMORPGs and your probably not alone but that's not all she wrote. There are people who want MMORPG of all kinds but I would guess the most specific constant in all of those various demands would be a persistent virtual world, even today. Now there may be more people who play LoL than WoW, sure, but LoL wasn't marketed as a MMORPG, infact they seemed to have popularized their own definition MOBA.
I guess the bottom line is I still think MMORPG means something specific.
I'm not trying to tell you what to play, I have no problem if you like CORPGs and I know some MMORPGs are becoming more like a CORPG but I would argue the majority of MMORPGs still resemble MMORPGs more so than CORPGs.
I guess the bottom line is I still think MMORPG means something specific.
Two points.
1) Many MMORPGs can be played solo-ed or in small groups ... i.e. in the style of CORPGs. Whether there is a persistent world is irrelevant. For example, in WOW, while there is a persistent world, many just ignored it, and use the city as a lobby.
2) No ... i don't think MMORPGs mean anything specific .. it is just another grouping of online games ... and i look for CORPG-ness in them .. and i often find it.
I'm not trying to tell you what to play, I have no problem if you like CORPGs and I know some MMORPGs are becoming more like a CORPG but I would argue the majority of MMORPGs still resemble MMORPGs more so than CORPGs.
I guess the bottom line is I still think MMORPG means something specific.
Two points.
1) Many MMORPGs can be played solo-ed or in small groups ... i.e. in the style of CORPGs. Whether there is a persistent world is irrelevant. For example, in WOW, while there is a persistent world, many just ignored it, and use the city as a lobby.
2) No ... i don't think MMORPGs mean anything specific .. it is just another grouping of online games ... and i look for CORPG-ness in them .. and i often find it.
I think we are just going to have to disagree at this point. I'm coming from my own experiences and what I look for in a MMORPG and you from yours. I don't deny there are people such as yourself that look for a CORPG-ish experience in a MMORPG but that doesn't stop the virtual world from existing and it certainly doesn't mean nobody other than myself looks for it. Just as it doesn't mean because I look for a persistent virtual world first and foremost that everyone is the same. As I said I think we are just going to have to disagree at this stage because we are coming from very different perspectives.
1) Many MMORPGs can be played solo-ed or in small groups ... i.e. in the style of CORPGs. Whether there is a persistent world is irrelevant. For example, in WOW, while there is a persistent world, many just ignored it, and use the city as a lobby.
2) No ... i don't think MMORPGs mean anything specific .. it is just another grouping of online games ... and i look for CORPG-ness in them .. and i often find it.
I think we are just going to have to disagree at this point. I'm coming from my own experiences and what I look for in a MMORPG and you from yours. I don't deny there are people such as yourself that look for a CORPG-ish experience in a MMORPG but that doesn't stop the virtual world from existing and it certainly doesn't mean nobody other than myself looks for it. Just as it doesn't mean because I look for a persistent virtual world first and foremost that everyone is the same. As I said I think we are just going to have to disagree at this stage because we are coming from very different perspectives.
Clearly we disagree about what games to play, and make to look for in a MMO. But that is relevant to the topic "how to get more quality MMOs". Since quality is not agreed upon, and subjective, there is no universal way of doing so.
All of these suggestions are good, but I think the best (and easiest) thing we can do to increase "quality of life" in MMOs is to restore a lot of the basics of avatar functionality...basics that have, regrettably, been taken out:
1) Finely detailed avatar customization. Sliders for everything. Large variety of heights, weights, textures, hairstyles, tattoos, piercings, eyewear, colors, shapes and sizes. As an old SWG and CoH player, I am extremely disappointed at how constrained today's MMOs are in this regard.
2) Chat bubbles in spatial, chat options, variability in presentation. Again, another quality of life tool that has been eliminated as these games went from role playing games to combat and loot grinders. Giving players options to express themselves makes the games about more than the combat and the quests; the games now become a tool of expression and a platform for narrative storytelling.
3) Emotes. Coming from the belle epoque of the genre, I was under the impression that we would soon get to the point where avatars would be able to visually present everything that a real person could do...and perhaps much more (supernatural actions, etc.). Boy was I wrong. These days, the avatars are expressively castrated...in a lot of games, they can't even walk at a normal pace (they run everywhere). They can't shrug, hug, kiss, posture, give the bird, sit down on chairs or lay on beds. In short, there's no joy in simply playing a character with other characters. The only joy is to fight stuff and loot crap...and that gets old no matter what we do to liven them up.
4) World building. Avatars need to be able to design spaces and design props. This should be more than simple housing; players should be able to design office buildings, workshops, dungeons for prisoners, torture chambers, hospitals, libraries, shops, parks--and a whole lot more. They should also be able to design objects that are essential for storytelling: letters patent, stele, signs, objets d'art, costumes, masques and so on. If the 'world building' games that are out (Roblox, Minecraft, Space Engineers) have taught us one thing, it's that players want outlets for their imaginations. MMOs used to provide players with these outlets. They need to get back to it.
None of these additions to basic functionality interfere with quests, combat, loots, levelling, group dynamics, boss battles, PvP, economics and trade and so on. They don't sell any demographic short and take away nothing from anyone. Everybody, from casual to hardcore, can appreciate these features. But they can create a massive boost in quality to any MMO.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
2) Chat bubbles in spatial, chat options, variability in presentation. Again, another quality of life tool that has been eliminated as these games went from role playing games to combat and loot grinders. Giving players options to express themselves makes the games about more than the combat and the quests; the games now become a tool of expression and a platform for narrative storytelling.
The reason why this was eliminated is that few players want to tell stories and "express themselves". Heck, they don't even want to chat in a dungeon group. Given tools that players don't care and don't use will not improve the "quality" of MMOs.
Comments
BINGO.. Games today are nothing more then a breadcrumb trail of predictable outcomes.. Where is the unpredictable variety? When I walk into a zone, I should have options galore.. Where are the roaming mobs that make "sitting" on the road dangerous while you eat dinner.. I don't get the feeling that a zone is alive, but instead are nothing but pockets of mobs sitting and waiting to be killed..
The problem with having at least 2 dungeons for every 5 levels is that few people actually bothers to play low level dungeons.
In the old days leveling was slow so getting good gear for your current level was important. The content was harder as well so you needed every edge possible.
Today people max out a character in weeks if not faster, and all dungeon gear you get one day is worthless the next.
You could make leveling very slow again, but maybe it would be better to get rid off levels altogether and have a lower power gap instead like many pen and paper RPGs (Runequest, BRP, Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, Warhammer fantast RPG to mention a few).
As for quests I agree with you completely, let just get rid of the none epic grind and make quests meaningful and fun.
Also I think it is time to up the difficulty somewhat. Today there is really no need to make your character good gearwise or buildwise until you hit the endgame and neither is really learning to play the game. It is surely one of the reasons so many players quit new MMOs when they hit levelcap, the difficulty goes from walk in the park to actually hard instead of a slow and steady increase as you discover more of the world.
My feeling is that leveling in MMOs have become a rather boring tutorial for the endgame and that is just wrong, the game should be fun all the time and challenge the players as they play.That said, the open world of a game should not be impossible for most players but it shouldn't be very easy either.
If you are getting hyped for a game without actually checking it up that is your own fault. You can't forbid people to advertise their product and you can't believe everything people tell you.
And there are ways to try out most games before buying them, stop giving money to companies just based on advertising.
Yes, I want quests to be made epic. We don't need to have rims of texts of meaningless tasks which just ask us to slaughter everything in sight.
Levelling needs to be slowe down. We don't need levellnig to be fast. We need it to be FUN. If people are having a lot of fun, I don't think they would care if it takes them ages to get to max level. And if you bombard them with choices of stuff they can do, it will make the whole thing much more varied. YOu can cater to people who love aoe mob grinding, dungeon grinding, focusing on some EPIC quests, crafting, pvp, collections, achievement hunting, mini games, open world group zones, levelling raids with some rewards which you would want to keep!
Hell give people a stupid bounty board which has tasks for slaughtering everything in sight and collecting random crap for NPCs. No ned to give them any background. Task can read - Kill 1000 boars and you will get this. Simple as that.
If we are going to extremely slow levelling, might throw in some raids too during the levelling! For example, people can raid at level 20 and have some diffiult content to tackle. Appropriate rewards can be made up so that what you get in those raids you keep for a while. Not sure how, maybe raids drop items that level up with you or they unlock stuff which people can't get anywhere else.
Reuse ALL dungeons and levelling raids at max level with new mechanics and a much higher difficulty.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Yep, GuildWars 2 kinda disappoint me. They did try to change things up a little with the living world stuff. I tried to jump back in the game, it just didn't work out so well...
Frankly I do not expect anyone to come out with a world landscape that changes with the influence of both NPCs and players anytime soon, it does sounds too damn big an undertaking now. Give it 30 years, minimum, maybe.
If we put that idea aside (and AI NPCs), the rest of the stuff should be achievable in our current time. GW2 might be one of the small step to the right direction - all it needs is MORE variation instead of repeating the same event every 10 minutes, and make it so event do not contained just within a fixed area. I played Rift for a short while long ago, the rift idea also something seems pretty interesting which can be taken forward to another level. Randomized stuff, unexpected stuff, things you can't accurately write a wiki with. "Unpredictable", is where the funs at, at least that's how I see it.
Just my personal opinion really. Instanced dungeon felt detached from the main game most of the time. I do play ARPG (not Diablo), but that kind of grind is quite different from MMORPG's dungeon grind. It's much tedious, require much more attention and skills. Unless you play with known friends, you don't get that kind of good quality players all the time. Instanced dungeon also creates the LFG problem, worst on games with holy trinity system - that kind of down time (or annoyance), is something I trying to avoid. Player leaving / rage quit half way also a huge issue. Plus, it is scripted.
Open world battle however, with no limited participant and not confined in a damn cave (lol) seems like a much better appeal to me. Why can't we have the epic dungeon battle take place in open world? Yes we can, and it's already available in some games. Just that we have to somehow deal with the zerg fest problem and significantly scale up the difficulty and dynamic of battle. Also turn them into random encounter rather than just fixed spawn.
Really, the ideas given here are great.
As MMO player, as most of other readers I have players severals MMOS since my begining, several years ago. (Sorry for my english I'll try to do it my best). I wanted to add something to some of the things said here.
Really we need a Level System?? been looking to fill a bar of Exp?? I think our character must learn from the habilities that mobs/other players do. for example, when I played GW1 you had to chase boss skills for your character, why not a similar way for all your skills, learning skill from the mobs/players you fight. If you are a warrior, and you defeat a mob that knocks you with his shield, you can learn and train this skill.
I think this way the game experience and your character development will be more interesting.
1) Make instanced dungeon .. the main game. There is no more detachment. It is not like people (in WOW, particularly) play in the world much anyway.
2) Diablo is different from most MMO because of the combat, not because of the dungeon running aspects. Marvel Heroes is quite close to wow because of a similar style of combat.
3) LFG is not a problem .. .it is just like Diablo matching. Trinity is a result of the combat set-up. I do agree it is not that much fun. But certainly that can be changed to something like a more actiony (Diablo or other style) combat.
4) Open world has other problem .. like camping, zerg fest, no scripting, and essentially hard to have a good experience with uncontrollable number of players. Open world pve just does not work for me. I prefer a instanced anyday.
You dude is so persistent and hard-working. Imagine, you type all of this. XD. I'll vote you as a president in the next election. I salute you
Personally, if I wanted to play an instanced dungeon as the main game I wouldn't bother with MMORPGs. The closest I'd come is I'd go play smite or some other MOBA. The beautiful thing about what a MMORPGs is, or atleast should be, is the depth and persistence of the virtual world. When I first starting playing MMORPGs I felt (however briefly) like I was part of another world and instancing takes away from that in my opinion. I'm not totally against instancing and I don't mind star citizens approach to instancing but that's only because it's not feasible to have a game like that run on a single instance. Ideally I'd much prefer a single server and a single instance, it's just instances are a necessary evil.
There are a few key things that draw my attention to games.
1) Class changing on a single character. However, I would like kind of a limit depending on the race and such. Like only allowing certain races to play as certain classes, like in wow, but have them able to switch rather than level one up then switch and do it again like 10 more times. Playing through pretty much the same content 6+ times gets really old really fast imo.
2) Flight. Too many developers are lazy and don't bother and even wow is getting lazy and saying junk like "its immersion breaking" or w/e. Flight in the long run is best when you're doing the same junk over and over and over again everyday. People who object to flight obviously don't play more than 1-2 characters. Not that playing low amounts of character is bad, just some people like to experience more things.
3) Having the option to have all crafts on a single character. I really loved that rift had this option and honestly I think its worth a cash shop sink. Its completely optional but it also allows people who only like 1-2 classes to only have 1-2 classes instead of leveling other classes just because of a crafting benefit or w/e.
4) Persistent equipment. I dont really mean every peice, but I would like gear that is a pain to get but worth getting and continues to grow as new content comes out and such. For the most part, FFXI did this best with relics/mythics/empy weapons. And yes I know FFXIV has similar but XI is better since it gives the play a specific "skill" that goes along with the weapon. Of course now, they have it so you can learn the skill outside of having the weapon but the old way added a since of accomplishment and lasting effect instead of these replace wars that go on in games now.
5) Abolish questing to level. Personally, I like quests to only be scarce and meant for something important in the game like to unlock skills and/or special class specific stuff. Instances without quests are ok. Can give them bonus completion rewards like money and gear alongside exp to help the leveling. But also have exp rewarded for battlegrounds for those who just like to pvp and have dynamic events on maps like if enemy forces are invading villages and such.
That's all I got for now
Just semantics ... if you imagine the game is not a MMORPGs, but a CORPG, everything will be fine.
So why not play a CORPG? Why redesign and redefine an entire genre? The point I was trying to make is that by making the base game an instanced dungeon you would effectively kill off the most quintessential parts of a MMORPG. That being a virtual world that's shared by thousands of players. It may be semantics but it's like gutting a plane so it can only taxi around and saying if you think of it as a car it'll be fine. I'm not trying to be a smart ass here but I really don't understand why you wouldn't just play a CORPG if that's what you wanted.
Quests don't fulfil design criteria enough for the modern concept of MMOs, what do you need from the cash shop when questing? XP potions maybe, but that's about it. When you are designing around a cash shop model, cash play comes first. Raid and pvp are more favoured as they need top gear which you can get or build via the cash shop.
We still have quests because we enjoy them, but don't bet on them being in MMOs in ten years time.
Wow, Swtor, Rift, ... has GREAT gameplay. Content is all but bland. And who says (only) original is best?
Khm, farmer have problem with rats. Like in real life. What massive quest chain could come from here? i'm just fine with questing at least from above games. Only thing I (I personally) miss is I love fully voiced questing, like Swtor (snif, not any more for regular quests since last expansion .-( ), first 20 levels of Aoc, ....
I'm not even minimally interested in PVP.
Can agree.
???
Maybe, if you have time to constantly play game. Casual players would be completely lost when returning to such monstrous quest chain in middle.
Big quest chain never worked.
Depend on game. There were games where I have fast discovered that very act of buying it was waste of time and money.
First of all its not my fault that this site and other sites gave SWTOR a great review almost a ten in some places, or AOC great reviews as well. I dont buy games at face value but an army of WOW addicted kids will and anyone else who doesnt know better. Because of hype and false advertisement. You are right they can hype and advertise all they want, its gaming sites giving these shitty games legitimacy with favorable reviews that leads to this problem in the first place.
You cant just admit that we have a problem, then spit in my face with that venomous attitude when I point out the obvious dude.
I do play CORPG, and you have it in reverse. It is up to the devs to determine why to redesign and redefine a genre (probably because of bigger audience?). For me, since I like CORPG, why shouldn't i play MMOs when devs make them more like CORPG?
In fact, i really don't care about the label when i choose games.
virtual world is no longer the quintessential parts of a MMORPG ... because devs want them to be more like CORPG to attract a different audience. And i would say they are successful, since I am here, and I like CORPG more.
I'm not trying to tell you what to play, I have no problem if you like CORPGs and I know some MMORPGs are becoming more like a CORPG but I would argue the majority of MMORPGs still resemble MMORPGs more so than CORPGs. Even Neverwinter which is sort of getting borderline and more like the exception rather than the rule still felt more like a MMORPG rather than a CORPG.
With that said, if I'm trying to sell a car and I market it as a plane than people are going to expect it to fly. You might fool a few people and you may change the meanings of the words car and plane but at the end of the day the only reason it would have been effective to market a car as a plane is because people really wanted something that could fly. It may get more people to your dealership but I see it as very shortsighted.
Now I understand you are saying that you like CORPG better than MMORPGs and your probably not alone but that's not all she wrote. There are people who want MMORPG of all kinds but I would guess the most specific constant in all of those various demands would be a persistent virtual world, even today. Now there may be more people who play LoL than WoW, sure, but LoL wasn't marketed as a MMORPG, infact they seemed to have popularized their own definition MOBA.
I guess the bottom line is I still think MMORPG means something specific.
Two points.
1) Many MMORPGs can be played solo-ed or in small groups ... i.e. in the style of CORPGs. Whether there is a persistent world is irrelevant. For example, in WOW, while there is a persistent world, many just ignored it, and use the city as a lobby.
2) No ... i don't think MMORPGs mean anything specific .. it is just another grouping of online games ... and i look for CORPG-ness in them .. and i often find it.
I think we are just going to have to disagree at this point. I'm coming from my own experiences and what I look for in a MMORPG and you from yours. I don't deny there are people such as yourself that look for a CORPG-ish experience in a MMORPG but that doesn't stop the virtual world from existing and it certainly doesn't mean nobody other than myself looks for it. Just as it doesn't mean because I look for a persistent virtual world first and foremost that everyone is the same. As I said I think we are just going to have to disagree at this stage because we are coming from very different perspectives.
Clearly we disagree about what games to play, and make to look for in a MMO. But that is relevant to the topic "how to get more quality MMOs". Since quality is not agreed upon, and subjective, there is no universal way of doing so.
I want more solo CORPG elements, and you don't.
All of these suggestions are good, but I think the best (and easiest) thing we can do to increase "quality of life" in MMOs is to restore a lot of the basics of avatar functionality...basics that have, regrettably, been taken out:
1) Finely detailed avatar customization. Sliders for everything. Large variety of heights, weights, textures, hairstyles, tattoos, piercings, eyewear, colors, shapes and sizes. As an old SWG and CoH player, I am extremely disappointed at how constrained today's MMOs are in this regard.
2) Chat bubbles in spatial, chat options, variability in presentation. Again, another quality of life tool that has been eliminated as these games went from role playing games to combat and loot grinders. Giving players options to express themselves makes the games about more than the combat and the quests; the games now become a tool of expression and a platform for narrative storytelling.
3) Emotes. Coming from the belle epoque of the genre, I was under the impression that we would soon get to the point where avatars would be able to visually present everything that a real person could do...and perhaps much more (supernatural actions, etc.). Boy was I wrong. These days, the avatars are expressively castrated...in a lot of games, they can't even walk at a normal pace (they run everywhere). They can't shrug, hug, kiss, posture, give the bird, sit down on chairs or lay on beds. In short, there's no joy in simply playing a character with other characters. The only joy is to fight stuff and loot crap...and that gets old no matter what we do to liven them up.
4) World building. Avatars need to be able to design spaces and design props. This should be more than simple housing; players should be able to design office buildings, workshops, dungeons for prisoners, torture chambers, hospitals, libraries, shops, parks--and a whole lot more. They should also be able to design objects that are essential for storytelling: letters patent, stele, signs, objets d'art, costumes, masques and so on. If the 'world building' games that are out (Roblox, Minecraft, Space Engineers) have taught us one thing, it's that players want outlets for their imaginations. MMOs used to provide players with these outlets. They need to get back to it.
None of these additions to basic functionality interfere with quests, combat, loots, levelling, group dynamics, boss battles, PvP, economics and trade and so on. They don't sell any demographic short and take away nothing from anyone. Everybody, from casual to hardcore, can appreciate these features. But they can create a massive boost in quality to any MMO.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
The reason why this was eliminated is that few players want to tell stories and "express themselves". Heck, they don't even want to chat in a dungeon group. Given tools that players don't care and don't use will not improve the "quality" of MMOs.