McQuaid

Bozo256 · February 2006

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I've got mixed thoughts on Vanguard. I had a lot of fun in the first EQ. Racing other guilds to beat them at non instanced PvE content was surprisingly satisfying (as long as both sides remained civil); something sorely lacking in a game like WoW.

However, it wasn't until Brad McQuaid left the team that some badly needed improvements were allowed to be made in the non-raiding parts of the game; like the reduction of downtime, bind stones, and more available transportation. Having read through some of McQuaids early Vanguard Q&As/FaQs, it was clear he was continuing to take the hard line on what I would call excessive downtime and player interdependency. But lately Vanguard info has become more moderate on these issues. Have they hired a better PR manager, or is McQuaid really becoming more moderate himself?

dunadurium · February 2006

Originally posted by Bozo256
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I've got mixed thoughts on Vanguard. I had a lot of fun in the first EQ. Racing other guilds to beat them at non instanced PvE content was surprisingly satisfying (as long as both sides remained civil); something sorely lacking in a game like WoW.

However, it wasn't until Brad McQuaid left the team that some badly needed improvements were allowed to be made in the non-raiding parts of the game; like the reduction of downtime, bind stones, and more available transportation. Having read through some of McQuaids early Vanguard Q&As/FaQs, it was clear he was continuing to take the hard line on what I would call excessive downtime and player interdependency. But lately Vanguard info has become more moderate on these issues. Have they hired a better PR manager, or is McQuaid really becoming more moderate himself?

Well those are indeed some valid points.

Brad has no doubt learned a lot from making EQ so we can assume that "The Vision" has evolved slightly also. In Vanguard there will be no teleportation at all, however mounts will be available fairly early on. Player interdependence will remain high, which i think is the way to go if you want to keep your player-base. There will not be excessive downtime at all from what we here from beta. They have indeed hired a new PR manager but that was extremely recently for larger scale PR such as magazines etc. Her name is April and you can find out a lot about her from the many Fanguard write ups.

Overall i would keep a close eye on Vanguard, sounds like you would like it.

~Dunadurium

Akribos · February 2006

Originally posted by Bozo256
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I've got mixed thoughts on Vanguard. I had a lot of fun in the first EQ. Racing other guilds to beat them at non instanced PvE content was surprisingly satisfying (as long as both sides remained civil); something sorely lacking in a game like WoW.

However, it wasn't until Brad McQuaid left the team that some badly needed improvements were allowed to be made in the non-raiding parts of the game; like the reduction of downtime, bind stones, and more available transportation. Having read through some of McQuaids early Vanguard Q&As/FaQs, it was clear he was continuing to take the hard line on what I would call excessive downtime and player interdependency. But lately Vanguard info has become more moderate on these issues. Have they hired a better PR manager, or is McQuaid really becoming more moderate himself?

Hehe, I think Brad had to sacrifice some of his uber grinding phylosophy for the appeal of the more general player base, what he likes to call "the core gamer", the intermediate between a casual and a hardcore gamer.

Personally I have read alot about this guy, I feel I know his way of thinking and have a great deal of respect for him and what he has done to the MMORPG genre. I trust he will make a good game and wont let us, the hardcore, down. Go Brad!

Abraxos · February 2006

Originally posted by Bozo256
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I've got mixed thoughts on Vanguard. I had a lot of fun in the first EQ. Racing other guilds to beat them at non instanced PvE content was surprisingly satisfying (as long as both sides remained civil); something sorely lacking in a game like WoW.

However, it wasn't until Brad McQuaid left the team that some badly needed improvements were allowed to be made in the non-raiding parts of the game; like the reduction of downtime, bind stones, and more available transportation. Having read through some of McQuaids early Vanguard Q&As/FaQs, it was clear he was continuing to take the hard line on what I would call excessive downtime and player interdependency. But lately Vanguard info has become more moderate on these issues. Have they hired a better PR manager, or is McQuaid really becoming more moderate himself?

I think also that even Brad is aware that 3 day straight camps, mob hogging, gold farming and many of the other demons that EQI created were not fun. Many of his new posts talk about taking a hardline approach but not making it as boring as camping the same spot for 48 hours in a sleep depraved stooper. For instance teleport stones were a new addition after McQuaid left to solve people bitching about having to run across three zones to get somewhere. One reason this was so boring was because after Brad left, SOE left his zones alone. Commonlands, Oasis, Karanas all became graveyards and no one likes to run across a graveyard 100 times. Especially if that graveyard has no cool skeletons in it

...Anyway I've seen that although travel will exist in Vanguard that many things will improve it instead of taking SOE's route and just removing it all together. For instance. Pirates and sea combat instead of a boring old boat ride thru zones. Generated encouters on roads including rogues and monsters that can be killed or even bribed or flattered thru diplomacy.

Lastly I believed Player interdependency was bad for along time as well. Especially as I sat screaming for any freaking Cleric or Enchanter to please help my group do one thing before I went to bed for the night. However with Vanguard this is also recieving a makeover. Brad has stated that you can solo but that it will not be easy and that they do not want to force grouping but do want to encourage and reward it to promote community. This has sorely been lacking in MMORPGs of late due to instancing and ability to solo. Why meet people if you don't need people? He also has stated that their will be four archeotypes for the classes and each class within the archeotype will all be able to do their job equally well but each will have talents aside from their jobs that sets them apart. For instance, the Dread Knight is a Tank class who will have the same AC and abilities defensively as a Warrior. However the warrior will do slightly more DPS whereas the Dreadknight will be able to stun and do fear debuffs. Each will tank and taunt as needed but each will be individuals as well.

Anyway I think Sigil is aware that Hardcore is associated with boring or tedious. I doubt you will see tons of solo content nor will you see teleportation stones but you will see a new take on making things challenging but still remaining fun. I know I can't wait to escort a Trade Caravan of real life people by horseback somewhere. That sounds better than a 30 minute ride on a static boat to me.

dunadurium · February 2006

Exactly Abraxos.

Vanguard will cut down tedium while keeping the game challenging.

Adding to abraxos post, there will also be mobs that can jump out and ambush you if your perception is not high enough while traveling, because your perception of things around you is much lower if you are riding on a mount. The horses BTW will get progressively better so travel time will be reducing as you go, but the penalty you take of riding through an area you have not been before(there will be no zones at all) is that you may not notice many things that you would if you took your time on foot(such as mineral deposits to mine or a cave that leads to a large dungeon etc). Also there will be player caravans that you'll be able to join and then log off while it is still moving! So you can actually stay and travel with your guild for instance and not have to be logged off. So mechanics like these do just that IMO-reduce tedium while keeping it interesting and challenging. Pretty sweet if you ask me

~Dunadurium

Jorev · February 2006

Originally posted by Bozo256
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I've got mixed thoughts on Vanguard. I had a lot of fun in the first EQ. Racing other guilds to beat them at non instanced PvE content was surprisingly satisfying (as long as both sides remained civil); something sorely lacking in a game like WoW.

However, it wasn't until Brad McQuaid left the team that some badly needed improvements were allowed to be made in the non-raiding parts of the game; like the reduction of downtime, bind stones, and more available transportation. Having read through some of McQuaids early Vanguard Q&As/FaQs, it was clear he was continuing to take the hard line on what I would call excessive downtime and player interdependency. But lately Vanguard info has become more moderate on these issues. Have they hired a better PR manager, or is McQuaid really becoming more moderate himself?

I have already dismissed Vanguard because it will not be solo friendly and will be raiding centric, but Brad's vision for EQ1 was spot on in general.

Downtime preserves the life of a game and provides logical immersion as one would realistically need to heal and rest between battles. The instant gratification junkies always cry about anything that requires effort and patience which are qualities that deserve to be rewarded.

Bindstones and fast transportation cheapen the gameworld by lessening accurate travel and thus dismiss much of the environment. Those changes also unfairly degraded druids in EQ1 who originally possessed those exclusive skills as part of their abilities. It's important to limit skills by class or available training points so that characters can be unique. Even soloers enjoy building multiple avatars for the variety.

Nubaa · February 2006

Originally posted by Jorev
I have already dismissed Vanguard because it will not be solo friendly and will be raiding centric, but Brad's vision for EQ1 was spot on in general.

Vanguard is group centric, not raid centric.

dunadurium · February 2006

Originally posted by Jorev

Originally posted by Bozo256
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I've got mixed thoughts on Vanguard. I had a lot of fun in the first EQ. Racing other guilds to beat them at non instanced PvE content was surprisingly satisfying (as long as both sides remained civil); something sorely lacking in a game like WoW.

However, it wasn't until Brad McQuaid left the team that some badly needed improvements were allowed to be made in the non-raiding parts of the game; like the reduction of downtime, bind stones, and more available transportation. Having read through some of McQuaids early Vanguard Q&As/FaQs, it was clear he was continuing to take the hard line on what I would call excessive downtime and player interdependency. But lately Vanguard info has become more moderate on these issues. Have they hired a better PR manager, or is McQuaid really becoming more moderate himself?

I have already dismissed Vanguard because it will not be solo friendly and will be raiding centric, but Brad's vision for EQ1 was spot on in general.

Downtime preserves the life of a game and provides logical immersion as one would realistically need to heal and rest between battles. The instant gratification junkies always cry about anything that requires effort and patience which are qualities that deserve to be rewarded.

Bindstones and fast transportation cheapen the gameworld by lessening accurate travel and thus dismiss much of the environment. Those changes also unfairly degraded druids in EQ1 who originally possessed those exclusive skills as part of their abilities. It's important to limit skills by class or available training points so that characters can be unique. Even soloers enjoy building multiple avatars for the variety.

LOL not again Jorev... remember this argumant: http://mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm/setstart/1/loadthread/61692/loadforum/51/loadclass/35 (starts on 2nd page i think)

I still say you try it when it releases or in open beta before you write it off as raid centric, or that you can't solo. Whats the worst think that could happen? you might just really like it, and if your a crafter (pg3 or 4 of the linked thread) then you'll probably enjoy the crafting sphere a lot.

~Dunadurium

Jorev · February 2006

I can't enjoy crafting if I cannot be self sufficient as a soloer. I was able to do so in EQ1 prior to Planes of Power but no one will be able to solo craft in Vanguard.

I have already had lengthy discussions with the crafting designer about the structure which requires dependency on others to make the better items in the game. You need to educate yourself on the subject.

And Vanguard will most certainly not be small group friendly. The focus is on large groups and raids to the point where inclusion of small groups and soloers is being sacrificed, but you will just have to wait and see if I am right.

angerr · February 2006

Originally posted by Jorev

I can't enjoy crafting if I cannot be self sufficient as a soloer. I was able to do so in EQ1 prior to Planes of Power but no one will be able to solo craft in Vanguard.
I have already had lengthy discussions with the crafting designer about the structure which requires dependency on others to make the better items in the game. You need to educate yourself on the subject.
And Vanguard will most certainly not be small group friendly. The focus is on large groups and raids to the point where inclusion of small groups and soloers is being sacrificed, but you will just have to wait and see if I am right.

so when the vanguard Dev's say stuff like "80% will be small group content" they are lying? just trying to figure out what you mean here, because from what i have read the game will be 20% raid and solo content and 80% small group.

you also mention eq1 but, I'm pretty sure it didn't become a raid-centric game until soe took over but i can be mistaken. I'm sure you wont be able to solo and get all the crafting materials you need, vanguard isn't about soloing really just as its not really about raiding.

dunadurium · February 2006

Originally posted by Jorev

I can't enjoy crafting if I cannot be self sufficient as a soloer. I was able to do so in EQ1 prior to Planes of Power but no one will be able to solo craft in Vanguard.
I have already had lengthy discussions with the crafting designer about the structure which requires dependency on others to make the better items in the game. You need to educate yourself on the subject.
And Vanguard will most certainly not be small group friendly. The focus is on large groups and raids to the point where inclusion of small groups and soloers is being sacrificed, but you will just have to wait and see if I am right.

LOL belive me i've read just about every scrap of info available on Vanguard and i first heard of it back when i was still following the development of EQ2 and the forming of Sigil was announced. Back then we didn't even know what the name of this game would be.

The fact is that you WILL be able to advance in crafting as a solo player but indeed for the really good items and for actual "physical" items you'll be relying on other players, and besides where did i ever say otherwise?...

I don't know what else you thought? What, did you expect to be making all the best items in the game solo?? This is indeed not a casual game, however it is not raid centric either, in other words you'll have plenty of other things to do in the end game then just raid.

All of this has been told to you before, so i dont know what else to say. If you try the game great, if not thats fine too. And if you prefer solo games then there are plenty of single player games available for you.

~Dunadurium

EDIT: once again angerr beat me to it, lol he's fast

Jorev · February 2006

One does not need to play single box games to solo, you are confused about what MMOG stands for and the many avenues of socializing that exist outside of adventuring and crafting.

I was able to solo craft in EQ1 until Planes of Power, make the very best items in the game as a tailor, and it was extremely challenging and difficult to achieve that goal. It is a misconception that a system which allows soloers to adventure or craft must be casual or less difficult. Dependency does not evoke challenge, it simply make it more complicated and less fulfilling.

It matters not if one can technically solo craft to max skill with NPC work orders. Why would anyone waste their time doing so, if as a soloer they would then still only be able to make the lower 75% quality items that their tradeskill has to offer, because the better items mandate dependency on others thru game design.

I don't know where that 80% small group content figure came from, but even Brad has stated that Vanguard is heavily large group oriented. This was not the case with EQ1 originally, so I am perplexed with his new definition of a core player.

angerr · February 2006

Originally posted by Jorev

I don't know where that 80% small group content figure came from, but even Brad has stated that Vanguard is heavily large group oriented. This was not the case with EQ1 originally, so I am perplexed with his new definition of a core player.

i don't remember where i read that and I'm to tired to dig it up but here you go..

"Vanguard is targeting the 'core' gamer. It will have three types of content: casual, group, and raid. Casual and raid will be the minority, with most content group oriented.

I know some people accuse EQ of being too raid oriented. I would say Vanguard will be less so. But we also think raiding is very important and fun. Our goal from the beginning was to create a world that would support core gamers, as well as more casual or people with less time, as well as those crazy raiders you refer to

Aside from that, well, Vanguard is a new game with a lot of new features and a whole new world to explore. I don't think we'll have any problem enticing hard core raiders to migrate over.

Source: Aradune Mithara

The plan is to have the majority of content be for groups, with the minority for solo/casuals and raids. Lots of game mechanics in or planned to make sure this works and to let us make group dungeons, even at higher levels, appealing and rewarding. Easier said than done, but we gotta do it"

http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=618

so w/e even if i am mistaken and its not 80% group content is still the majority and raid/solo content is indeed the minority.

angerr · February 2006

Originally posted by dunadurium

angerr beat me to it, lol he's fast

i know it is pathetic how much time i spend here, but that is the beauty of having two computers i guess....i can game with one and surf message boards with another (when I'm not dual boxing).

n2sooners · February 2006

From what I have read, crafting will be something you do solo, you just won't be able to get everything yourself solo. But I don't see how having to buy something off someone else makes a game suddenly non-solo friendly. Heck, if it comes down to the point where you don't even want to deal with other players at all, even to buy from them, then you really should be playing a single player game.

I have also heard that diplomacy is almost entirely solo with only a few encounters requiring a group (or even a group requiring the services of a diplomat).

Some people just won't be happy until they can do everything in the game entirely by themselves, but games like that turn out to have crappy communities and really lack any reason to play them long term.

Jorev · February 2006

I have already stated that I was able to solo craft in EQ1 as a tailor prior to Planes of Power which then introduced new recipes with ingredients that dropped in those group/raid mob areas.

EQ1 held a lot of players interest for a long time and most people who are excited about Vanguard miss the old EQ1 type of game so your conclusion of crappy communities and lack of reason to play for a game that allows soloers to be self sufficient crafters, is unsound.

Buying or trading for ingredients that are group mob area harvested or drops would be a valid way for a soloer to still be self sufficient, and it sounds good in theory, but based on my experience in EQ1 with Planes of Power recipe ingredients, it doesn't happen.

I built relationships with guild members who had access to those ingredients and tried either buying them or bartering combines in return for some ingredients that I could keep. I had limited success doing that since most guilds just hoarded those valuable ingredients and powerskilled their own crafters. I see no reason why it would be different in Vanguard.

Anofalye · February 2006

Jorev, my old EQ friend,

I think you should let's go. Vanguard is not for me and I fear it is not for you either. Maybe the next MMO Brad will learn, if such a thing can happen. 80% group oriented, 100% lower end content, this is not acceptable to me...any "End Game Content" that escape grouping (or solo) is unfair to me, hehe. Won't reach any agreement with them!

I was a privilegied person to trade with you in old EQ (at SoL era mostly). Did you consider Auto-Assault? The tradeskill system look pretty complex, might be for you...no idea honestly!

angerr · February 2006

again let me re quote my first post since obviously you either didn't read it or just plain ignored it due to the fact it proves your theory wrong.

"The plan is to have the majority of content be for groups, with the minority for solo/casuals and raids. Lots of game mechanics in or planned to make sure this works and to let us make group dungeons, even at higher levels, appealing and rewarding. Easier said than done, but we gotta do it"

http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=618

so stop making stuff up claiming vanguard is going to be a raid-centric game unless you have Prof to back it up. vanguard is going to be a game mainly for small groups weather you want to believe it or not, it has been stated that raiding is just as much of a minority as soloing, i cant spell it out for you any clearer....

dunadurium · February 2006

Ok here is my latest quote for all you "raid centric" nay-sayers, i hope it makes at least some happy:

Brad McQuaid:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bregalad
Brad - I think the discussion here is not 'why all the raid content is at high levels', but more along the 'why most content at high levels is raid?'

The sentiment is not that people want raids at low-mid levels (though I would love some, we had great fun in places like Mistmoore and old Cazic-Thule). but they want more solo/roup high level content.

And they shall have it. The majority of content, regardless of level range, is centered around the grouping experience, with the minority focused on more casual content and raid content.

So even at end game, there will be soloing, grping, and raiding, But again most content will indeed be group based.

There will also still be raids at much lower levels than usual, for those that do like them.

~Dunadurium

angerr · February 2006

Originally posted by dunadurium
Ok here is my latest quote for all you "raid centric" nay-sayers, i hope it makes at least some happy: Brad McQuaid:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BregaladBrad - I think the discussion here is not 'why all the raid content is at high levels', but more along the 'why most content at high levels is raid?'The sentiment is not that people want raids at low-mid levels (though I would love some, we had great fun in places like Mistmoore and old Cazic-Thule). but they want more solo/roup high level content.
And they shall have it. The majority of content, regardless of level range, is centered around the grouping experience, with the minority focused on more casual content and raid content.
So even at end game, there will be soloing, grping, and raiding, But again most content will indeed be group based.
There will also still be raids at much lower levels than usual, for those that do like them.
~Dunadurium

lol i put that quote in my Sig so there never can be any more question. ::::28::

dunadurium · February 2006

Originally posted by angerr

lol i put that quote in my Sig so there never can be any more question.

Lol thats awesome, especially since it directly contradicts the sigs of some of these whiners. (like the three headed forum troll)

It will be refreshing to hopefully see a lot of these arguments go away though. Now i'll just have to refer them to your sig

~Dunadurium

Bozo256 · February 2006

The quantity of one type of content isn't nearly as important as what that content does for character progression. For such a large amount of single group content to mean anything in the end, it would have to offer loot comparable to raid acquired gear. Maybe I dont represent the standard gamer, I dont know. But Im not happy to sit around at one stage of character/guild development when I know there are bigger and better things to be advancing to. Single group content being the end goal, when raiding content is available, sounds really sketchy to me. Rewarding raiders for raiding was a big part of the original McQuaid Vision , and I simply dont see him handing out the same type of loot to a 30 man raid that a single group is capable of getting.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

angerr · February 2006

Originally posted by Bozo256
The quantity of one type of content isn't nearly as important as what that content does for character progression. For such a large amount of single group content to mean anything in the end, it would have to offer loot comparable to raid acquired gear. Maybe I dont represent the standard gamer, I dont know. But Im not happy to sit around at one stage of character/guild development when I know there are bigger and better things to be advancing to. Single group content being the end goal, when raiding content is available, sounds really sketchy to me. Rewarding raiders for raiding was a big part of the original McQuaid Vision , and I simply dont see him handing out the same type of loot to a 30 man raid that a single group is capable of getting.

if i remember right, when eq was first released there wasn't a whole lot of raiding and people loved it. i honestly don't know how vanguard is going to work as far as group loot compared to raid.

but they can make it just as hard to get group loot as it is raid loot, for example it might take quite a bit to finish a quest that involves several small group encounters to get a item of the same caliber that might drop during a raid encounter.

again, i am not sure how they are going to do it, but i think it is defiantly possible...

edit: http://silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=586 read 34.5 and it pretty much answers this question for ya.

scaramoosh · February 2006

I think Vangaurd keeps ALOT from EQ, but changes ALOT to make it the game it should have been.

In their eyes anyways.

MMO_Munk · February 2006

Well they are just ussing their experiance in WHAT WORKED. They kept what people liked, and what made things tough. And sprinkled in some nice zipp, and colors to bring it up to the 2006 pace of life in mmo's. I'm just glad that they are making a game like this, just clearly giving the finger to casual gamers and their wants, who cares what casual gamers think. I mean, seriously, they dont play enough to demand anything done. Why games like EverQuest 2 and World of Warcraft have gone down that shotpipe.

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