Originally posted by kinkanat Log Horizon guys...Log horizon is Perfect! I waiting game same to Log Horizon.
Agreed. Log Horizon is a far more interesting mix between a themepark and a sandbox. SAOs gameplay is far more predictable while Elder scrolls online (Log Horizons game) have diplomacy, intrigues and crafting on a very different level.
Anyways, adding that mystery part is hard today, in SAO they get stuck into the game so they can't check things up on wiki. The only way to make a boss encounter, as example, a mystery is adding some or many random features but that means that the difficulty will vary a lot each time you fight a boss. Might be worth it though.
Originally posted by mattias24 Dont want to be "that" guy but it's kind of hard to "Leave Some Things a Mystery" when we got tons of different sites that are more or less databases, example, for wow youg got wowhead, and you got tons of different wikis, and so on, but on the otherhand, less open/long betatest would decrease the amount of pre-released specific info about the gameworld/quests, but still, hard to restrict game info like that.
Those damn beaters! *shakes fist*
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I know you're all gaga about SAO, but I'm not really a fan of it. It had some excellent moments (and some embarrassing ones), but it's a show about future technology. Maybe real life is not like SAO because technology's not there yet.
David, maybe you should also check out Log Horizon as well.
There's nothing more gratifying than playing an MMO for free.
The only death penalty close to perma death I would personally play is something like wizardry online.
If you didn't play it:
The higher level you reached, the less chance you had to successfully revive yourself. You had to offer valuables to increase your odds of revival even new loot you got from farming monsters. Fail to revive yourself, you are given another chance. Fail it again? You lost your character forever.
Most important, however, was that if you died from PVP/Pking in town it was always a 100% chance on reviving.
Except for the Permadeath, i dont see any interesting "new and awesome" features on SAO what there' arent in any created mmo, neither in Log Horizon (well, in LH they have a lot of Sandbox features).
Whelp, Sword Art Online is hardly a new concept, and definitely not a template for an actual, functioning, MMORPG.
As others have pointed out SAO is basically the same as Log Horizon & .hack, both of which do a better job with the concept. It was also made pretty clear by season 2 of SAO that it's a show that is struggling to find content to keep it going. But back to the topic at hand:
There are numerous reasons why SAO couldn't work as a template for an MMO. For one, it's based around 1 guy who is superior to everyone else. A concept that works great in single player games & movies, not so much in MMOs. Indeed many of the MMOs that have tried this have faced challenges as a result.
Things like going on a random epic quest to collect a sword that is significantly better than everything else in the game, and can only be picked up once. Ya, that stuff cannot happen in a multiplayer game. Furthermore the whole permadeath thing... Many games struggle enough to get players with harsh death penalties. Afaik there has been only one? game that tried permadeath. And it failed miserably. In fact, after the first part of SAO, permadeath stops being a theme. And before you use the last season as an example, watch the whole thing. I don't wanna give any spoilers.
The only concept that is an idea worth running with is the non-combat specialization one. it's been done successfully in the past. There are players that enjoy that sort of thing, and it would actually benefit a game designed for such a thing.
- As for leaving things up to mystery, I do agree with that to an extent, but again: .hack and log horizon are waaay better examples of that. And indeed, there is only so much you can do w/ that, given datamining + internet fansites.
Nice article. the concept is nice. And honestly reminded me a great deal of SWG in the early days before NGE. A friend and I were talking the other day and were stating that part of the boom of social media and multiple gaming sites have actually made it harder for that socialzation in game.
in SWG and LotRo for that matter, so many folks used game forum to find information and in turn to participate in the community. And great communities were built
Now with info pushed out via Twitter and FB and other venues there is no primary online gather place for the players that allow the interaction that made the communities.
A game such as this may be made someday, the developers do need to release non buggy content and be aware it will be a niche game that will really have to cater to the Roleplayer. But I love the idea of player shops for items and the mystery. A game that encourages exploration and special items for crafting.
Things like going on a random epic quest to collect a sword that is significantly better than everything else in the game, and can only be picked up once.
I don't see anything wrong with a time limited quest, that gives out a powerful once in a games life time item. Especially if it is something like taking some rare materials to a retiring legendary smith that likes you. Even if it was only one person who receives the item. Just like in real life, some things are one of a kind. People would whine like mad that they did not get the quest, but so what? The whining would not be any worse than the poor unfortunates that did not win the Lotto. Find the individual that completed it, and see how much in game currency they want for the item. Bots would be the only real problem. And yeah, as a show SAO was pretty good; but as a real MMORPG? Maybe not so much.
The code of the pessimistic loner: "We unpopular loners are realists, who follow the three non- popular principles: Not having any (Hope), Not making any (Gaps in your heart); And not giving into (Sweet talk)".
As for the Mystery part, I do recall early on with Guild Wars 2 it started doing "????" for it's piece-released events. Namely the Halloween 2012 and Lost Shores events both did that same thing trying to go for mystery and suspense on "What's next?" up until it was actually ready. The issue is that players are a fickle beast that wouldn't give and instead threw a fit about wanting to know it in advanced; that and they also had an issue with specific events on specific days, which caused them to miss something and had a cow about it. That's a whole separate issue I guess. The main issue is that mystery is lost with at the very least a very vocal minority.
Sword Art Online is one of the biggest and most popular animes on the market right now. It does a great job of delivering on all fronts, whether it be action, character development, humor, romance, or anything else youd look for in your anime. Technology isnt quite to the point it needs to be in order to replicate some of the ideas in the show, but we can still take some inspirations from how things work in the world of SAO.
Lol is this just clickbait? I don't want to believe that the author of this article is this delusional.
SAO was great and does have alot to teach MMO's! I do feel though David Jagneaux that Log Horizon has Quite a bit to offer as well, in alot of ways even more than SAO, to MMO development.
If you haven't gotten a chance to watch it, you should!
I find it funny that quite a few people think that the things you mention in this article are not viable in mmos period. When there have been games that have implemented quite a few of these in their game play. There have been games with perma death as a punishment for failure. It was summarily dismissed by the american public, because they hate to "waste time and money to loose it all. " A notion I disagree with, as I find that if I can create a good character, then I can certainly create an even better one next time around, and have fun with the game all over again.
Star Wars Galaxies was awesome with the social aspect of the game, before it got nerfed, and then nerfed again even worse and then nerfed again even worse than that, till they drove everyone away and finally had to shut it down. I remember the taverns there were full of people talking socializing, getting their buffs, from dancers and musicians. I remember being contracted as a musician in a band to go buff a guild for a guild war. So much fun. There were little doctor way stations and each class truly helped out each other in one way or another. Even getting makeovers had its advantages, from people who specialized in that.
I miss that game terribly, but hated what it became, when it thought it needed to keep up with WoW. Still it showed that, alot of the things that they show in SOA are viable. They are even possible in todays MMOs. The real sad part is that people complain that everything new that comes out is a copy of WoW, but if anything is honestly different, they complain that its to hard and want it easier. Honestly, I think the mayority of the problems are really the type of players we have become. This is of course just my opinion.
Originally posted by MadnessRealm I'd really love to see a step away from Auction Houses or having a map filled with Player-run NPCs selling all their stuffs. I'd like to see Crafters (Players) have their own houses they can turn into stores, and put their wares on display. Sure you can hire an NPC to attend to your shop as you can't expect the player to be constantly there, but it would still be a player-run shop. As for players who just want to sell the shiny new sword they just dropped but don't need, well they can just sell it to a player-run shop and that player will take care of selling it.
Had that....it was called Star Wars Galaxies. Too bad no one else has learned from it.
just a little history...log horizon and SAO are both light novels , being adapted to anime. Their content has been already written. Both are good in different ways....
Awesome ideas. I really like the ideas of Major in-game consequences and Practical in-game specializations. This could lead to less time invested in game over all, but more quality and significant experiences when playing. Less bullshit grinding and more heart moving and character building experiences!!
I don't have an issue with any of the numbers but 1.
In SAO the best builds and etc actually WERE fleshed out. Kirito didn't end up with the Dual Wield skill by chance. He already knew about it because he beta tested the game. There were rumours on how to obtain the skill and he searched them out from the knowledge he obtained from beta testing it and thats how he got it.
There's a reason in the first few episodes the players in SAO were mad at beta testers, because they expoloited all the good leveling spots and quests meanwhile a lot of the noobs were dying because they didn't know the mechanics of the game, or how to build their characters or anything. Which is why a group of beta testers released a guide to the game with the knowledge they gathered.
Nice article and yes i agree with some parts. I would love to see the social aspect back in MMORPG's. It made me wonder if i should laugh or cry when i read some comments here that say "Only 1% of the player base wants more social aspects in their game". This is a sad state of MMORPG's and i blame the mainstream pleasing the entire industry has turned too. I recently subbed to WoW again after years of absense. I join a random group for a instance run. Now PuG's where always tricky in the past, often you found yourself frustrated with people not working together...but now it gone even worse. How many people already rush trough the dungeons without waiting for anyone else. Without saying a word and just play it like a singleplayer game where the other players are NPC's to help them. And this isn't just in WoW, in most MMORPG's its made to please the singleplayer gamer.
Like why don't you have to go to the dungeon anymore to enter it? Why do we have these annoying dungeon finders? People will say its more conveniant and a improvement. These people are dead wrong and don't get it what a MMORPG should be. They don't get the RPG element and most people don't even get the MMO part either. A MMORPG should bring you a big world to immerse yourself in. I liked WoW the first few years when you saw people traveling to the dungeons/raids. It made the world more alive. And that brings me to the point of more social aspects. Remove stupid things like dungeon finders. Bring back player housing and player runned stores. Get rid of the AH so people have to trade more ammongst each other. Yes a lot of people will complain and moan about it. But these people where never interested in MMORPG's before. They just want to rush things and have everything as conviniant as possible.
Finally a MMORPG should be about lvling and raiding only as many MMORPG's are these days. Before it became super mainstream Roleplaying was a big part of a MMORPG as well and you didn't have to be ashamed of being a RPer. MMORPG's not always had a RP server but no one looked weird at RPers being well presented on the servers. Look at SWG for example, you had plenty of RP going on around you and might not even noticed it cause the game was well designed around it. You had the entertainer class who leveled up by dancing and playing music, not by only combat. We need more of that. Like said in the article about the blacksmith. Give people a choice if they want to do combat or become something else that contributes to the world. RP will become normal again and people will be more social again if they depend more on each other. Also make the world dangerous again. Stop making it all so soloable. If the area is suppose to be dangerouse then make it really dangerous and indeed make death more punishing.
I can think of games that have some of those things, the exception being obviously #5.
Dofus has #2, #3 and #4. Tibia has #2 and #4. Ragnarok has #2 and #3.
While i can understand and hope for #1, that's more on the community than on the developers. People will find out and put it on the wiki eventually and if you don't ready it before a boss/quest, your party will be annoyed with you.
I can think of games that have some of those things, the exception being obviously #5.
Dofus has #2, #3 and #4. Tibia has #2 and #4. Ragnarok has #2, #3 and #4 i think too.
While i can understand and hope for #1, that's more on the community than on the developers. People will find out and put it on the wiki eventually and if you don't ready it before a boss/quest, your party will be annoyed with you.
#1 has suffered from the perma-death so many seem to crave. With people earning money from their YT channels and from Google Ads on their sites, it's pretty much a guarantee that the moment a game goes live these days it will be accompanied by a dozen guides on day one (from all the beta testers).
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Eve online _nails_ the social aspect, and does the crafting very well. Every ship you see flying around in the game was made by a player.
I for one, would like to see the myriad of skills in more mmos. Even things like listen and tracking for interesting player interactions. Eve has sort of a similar skill system, but I'd love to experience this in a fantasy setting.
If someone could implement the social aspects of Eve into a fantasy mmorpg, that would truly be awesome. Reputation _really_ matters in that game. In fact you can even have your guild mark people that aren't in your guild as trustworthy people, sketchy people, or bastards! And that tag will show up to all your guild mates even if they never met that person before.
Comments
Agreed. Log Horizon is a far more interesting mix between a themepark and a sandbox. SAOs gameplay is far more predictable while Elder scrolls online (Log Horizons game) have diplomacy, intrigues and crafting on a very different level.
Anyways, adding that mystery part is hard today, in SAO they get stuck into the game so they can't check things up on wiki. The only way to make a boss encounter, as example, a mystery is adding some or many random features but that means that the difficulty will vary a lot each time you fight a boss. Might be worth it though.
Those damn beaters! *shakes fist*
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
"Major in-game consequences" like death?
I know you're all gaga about SAO, but I'm not really a fan of it. It had some excellent moments (and some embarrassing ones), but it's a show about future technology. Maybe real life is not like SAO because technology's not there yet.
David, maybe you should also check out Log Horizon as well.
There's nothing more gratifying than playing an MMO for free.
The only death penalty close to perma death I would personally play is something like wizardry online.
If you didn't play it:
The higher level you reached, the less chance you had to successfully revive yourself. You had to offer valuables to increase your odds of revival even new loot you got from farming monsters. Fail to revive yourself, you are given another chance. Fail it again? You lost your character forever.
Most important, however, was that if you died from PVP/Pking in town it was always a 100% chance on reviving.
Except for the Permadeath, i dont see any interesting "new and awesome" features on SAO what there' arent in any created mmo, neither in Log Horizon (well, in LH they have a lot of Sandbox features).
Compared with .hack and LH, SAO is like......meh.
Whelp, Sword Art Online is hardly a new concept, and definitely not a template for an actual, functioning, MMORPG.
As others have pointed out SAO is basically the same as Log Horizon & .hack, both of which do a better job with the concept. It was also made pretty clear by season 2 of SAO that it's a show that is struggling to find content to keep it going. But back to the topic at hand:
There are numerous reasons why SAO couldn't work as a template for an MMO. For one, it's based around 1 guy who is superior to everyone else. A concept that works great in single player games & movies, not so much in MMOs. Indeed many of the MMOs that have tried this have faced challenges as a result.
Things like going on a random epic quest to collect a sword that is significantly better than everything else in the game, and can only be picked up once. Ya, that stuff cannot happen in a multiplayer game. Furthermore the whole permadeath thing... Many games struggle enough to get players with harsh death penalties. Afaik there has been only one? game that tried permadeath. And it failed miserably. In fact, after the first part of SAO, permadeath stops being a theme. And before you use the last season as an example, watch the whole thing. I don't wanna give any spoilers.
The only concept that is an idea worth running with is the non-combat specialization one. it's been done successfully in the past. There are players that enjoy that sort of thing, and it would actually benefit a game designed for such a thing.
- As for leaving things up to mystery, I do agree with that to an extent, but again: .hack and log horizon are waaay better examples of that. And indeed, there is only so much you can do w/ that, given datamining + internet fansites.
Nice article. the concept is nice. And honestly reminded me a great deal of SWG in the early days before NGE. A friend and I were talking the other day and were stating that part of the boom of social media and multiple gaming sites have actually made it harder for that socialzation in game.
in SWG and LotRo for that matter, so many folks used game forum to find information and in turn to participate in the community. And great communities were built
Now with info pushed out via Twitter and FB and other venues there is no primary online gather place for the players that allow the interaction that made the communities.
A game such as this may be made someday, the developers do need to release non buggy content and be aware it will be a niche game that will really have to cater to the Roleplayer. But I love the idea of player shops for items and the mystery. A game that encourages exploration and special items for crafting.
I don't see anything wrong with a time limited quest, that gives out a powerful once in a games life time item. Especially if it is something like taking some rare materials to a retiring legendary smith that likes you. Even if it was only one person who receives the item. Just like in real life, some things are one of a kind. People would whine like mad that they did not get the quest, but so what? The whining would not be any worse than the poor unfortunates that did not win the Lotto. Find the individual that completed it, and see how much in game currency they want for the item. Bots would be the only real problem. And yeah, as a show SAO was pretty good; but as a real MMORPG? Maybe not so much.
The code of the pessimistic loner: "We unpopular loners are realists, who follow the three non- popular principles: Not having any (Hope), Not making any (Gaps in your heart); And not giving into (Sweet talk)".
As for the Mystery part, I do recall early on with Guild Wars 2 it started doing "????" for it's piece-released events. Namely the Halloween 2012 and Lost Shores events both did that same thing trying to go for mystery and suspense on "What's next?" up until it was actually ready. The issue is that players are a fickle beast that wouldn't give and instead threw a fit about wanting to know it in advanced; that and they also had an issue with specific events on specific days, which caused them to miss something and had a cow about it. That's a whole separate issue I guess. The main issue is that mystery is lost with at the very least a very vocal minority.
Lol is this just clickbait? I don't want to believe that the author of this article is this delusional.
Waiting for:
The Repopulation
Albion Online
SAO was great and does have alot to teach MMO's! I do feel though David Jagneaux that Log Horizon has Quite a bit to offer as well, in alot of ways even more than SAO, to MMO development.
If you haven't gotten a chance to watch it, you should!
I find it funny that quite a few people think that the things you mention in this article are not viable in mmos period. When there have been games that have implemented quite a few of these in their game play. There have been games with perma death as a punishment for failure. It was summarily dismissed by the american public, because they hate to "waste time and money to loose it all. " A notion I disagree with, as I find that if I can create a good character, then I can certainly create an even better one next time around, and have fun with the game all over again.
Star Wars Galaxies was awesome with the social aspect of the game, before it got nerfed, and then nerfed again even worse and then nerfed again even worse than that, till they drove everyone away and finally had to shut it down. I remember the taverns there were full of people talking socializing, getting their buffs, from dancers and musicians. I remember being contracted as a musician in a band to go buff a guild for a guild war. So much fun. There were little doctor way stations and each class truly helped out each other in one way or another. Even getting makeovers had its advantages, from people who specialized in that.
I miss that game terribly, but hated what it became, when it thought it needed to keep up with WoW. Still it showed that, alot of the things that they show in SOA are viable. They are even possible in todays MMOs. The real sad part is that people complain that everything new that comes out is a copy of WoW, but if anything is honestly different, they complain that its to hard and want it easier. Honestly, I think the mayority of the problems are really the type of players we have become. This is of course just my opinion.
Had that....it was called Star Wars Galaxies. Too bad no one else has learned from it.
I don't have an issue with any of the numbers but 1.
In SAO the best builds and etc actually WERE fleshed out. Kirito didn't end up with the Dual Wield skill by chance. He already knew about it because he beta tested the game. There were rumours on how to obtain the skill and he searched them out from the knowledge he obtained from beta testing it and thats how he got it.
There's a reason in the first few episodes the players in SAO were mad at beta testers, because they expoloited all the good leveling spots and quests meanwhile a lot of the noobs were dying because they didn't know the mechanics of the game, or how to build their characters or anything. Which is why a group of beta testers released a guide to the game with the knowledge they gathered.
Nice article and yes i agree with some parts. I would love to see the social aspect back in MMORPG's. It made me wonder if i should laugh or cry when i read some comments here that say "Only 1% of the player base wants more social aspects in their game". This is a sad state of MMORPG's and i blame the mainstream pleasing the entire industry has turned too. I recently subbed to WoW again after years of absense. I join a random group for a instance run. Now PuG's where always tricky in the past, often you found yourself frustrated with people not working together...but now it gone even worse. How many people already rush trough the dungeons without waiting for anyone else. Without saying a word and just play it like a singleplayer game where the other players are NPC's to help them. And this isn't just in WoW, in most MMORPG's its made to please the singleplayer gamer.
Like why don't you have to go to the dungeon anymore to enter it? Why do we have these annoying dungeon finders? People will say its more conveniant and a improvement. These people are dead wrong and don't get it what a MMORPG should be. They don't get the RPG element and most people don't even get the MMO part either. A MMORPG should bring you a big world to immerse yourself in. I liked WoW the first few years when you saw people traveling to the dungeons/raids. It made the world more alive. And that brings me to the point of more social aspects. Remove stupid things like dungeon finders. Bring back player housing and player runned stores. Get rid of the AH so people have to trade more ammongst each other. Yes a lot of people will complain and moan about it. But these people where never interested in MMORPG's before. They just want to rush things and have everything as conviniant as possible.
Finally a MMORPG should be about lvling and raiding only as many MMORPG's are these days. Before it became super mainstream Roleplaying was a big part of a MMORPG as well and you didn't have to be ashamed of being a RPer. MMORPG's not always had a RP server but no one looked weird at RPers being well presented on the servers. Look at SWG for example, you had plenty of RP going on around you and might not even noticed it cause the game was well designed around it. You had the entertainer class who leveled up by dancing and playing music, not by only combat. We need more of that. Like said in the article about the blacksmith. Give people a choice if they want to do combat or become something else that contributes to the world. RP will become normal again and people will be more social again if they depend more on each other. Also make the world dangerous again. Stop making it all so soloable. If the area is suppose to be dangerouse then make it really dangerous and indeed make death more punishing.
i want to be able to craft furniture for housing.
having a ingame life far away from farming honor points and grinding instances.
Don't forget to give all the protagonists (players) super powers so that they basicly could solo raid bosses.
I can think of games that have some of those things, the exception being obviously #5.
Dofus has #2, #3 and #4. Tibia has #2 and #4. Ragnarok has #2 and #3.
While i can understand and hope for #1, that's more on the community than on the developers. People will find out and put it on the wiki eventually and if you don't ready it before a boss/quest, your party will be annoyed with you.
#1 has suffered from the perma-death so many seem to crave. With people earning money from their YT channels and from Google Ads on their sites, it's pretty much a guarantee that the moment a game goes live these days it will be accompanied by a dozen guides on day one (from all the beta testers).
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
I for one, would like to see the myriad of skills in more mmos. Even things like listen and tracking for interesting player interactions. Eve has sort of a similar skill system, but I'd love to experience this in a fantasy setting.
If someone could implement the social aspects of Eve into a fantasy mmorpg, that would truly be awesome. Reputation _really_ matters in that game. In fact you can even have your guild mark people that aren't in your guild as trustworthy people, sketchy people, or bastards! And that tag will show up to all your guild mates even if they never met that person before.