If we want real change then we need to always wait a week until after a game is released before deciding if we are going to buy it. A huge chunk of a game's profit comes from day one sales. But when that is no longer the case the developers would have to be more careful about when and what state they release their game. Another side effect of this is that the hype generated in you will die down and you might not even buy the game, because really you weren't interested in the first place. It was just the marketing getting to you.
(I think I just jinxed your link, though. Sorry about that )
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
The only time the suits paint themselves the villain is when the put the bottom line ahead of creativity and entertainment.
Despite what some might like to believe, it isn't the suits who are doling out the salaries to the devs, it's plays dropping all that cash for the finished product(s). Nobody buying games = no jobs for anyone, period.
Deliver a bad game.. aka the suits rushing out an unfinished product to capitalize, while initially some money may be made, a tarnished reputation will do far more damage than any money acquired on the unfinished product.
Think about it.. take 3 games that took a heavy beating upon release (and still do to this day), Diablo 3, Archeage, and ESO..
If one could ask all the players who ever touched any of those games if they'd ever touch a product again made by those particular developers or publishers, what do you think they're answer will be? Especially Archeage, it was always "I'll never touch a game done by Trion or XL Games again"
Ya.. hows that bottom line working out for you...
The bottom line should be secondary, never a priority.
The only time the suits paint themselves the villain is when the put the bottom line ahead of creativity and entertainment.
Despite what some might like to believe, it isn't the suits who are doling out the salaries to the devs, it's plays dropping all that cash for the finished product(s). Nobody buying games = no jobs for anyone, period.
Deliver a bad game.. aka the suits rushing out an unfinished product to capitalize, while initially some money may be made, a tarnished reputation will do far more damage than any money acquired on the unfinished product.
Think about it.. take 3 games that took a heavy beating upon release (and still do to this day), Diablo 3, Archeage, and ESO..
If one could ask all the players who ever touched any of those games if they'd ever touch a product again made by those particular developers or publishers, what do you think they're answer will be? Especially Archeage, it was always "I'll never touch a game done by Trion or XL Games again"
Ya.. hows that bottom line working out for you...
The bottom line should be secondary, never a priority.
Well, sometimes funds just run out.
In all fairness, I must acknowledge indelible sin committed by Activision and or Blizzard as they strongly appear to be business decisions. D3's BMAH has made me boycott all products beyond WoW. The extremes they go through to bleed consumers despite detriments to their games....it's devastating. WoW's cash shop and its exclusive items; cosmetic or not, I expect in-game attainability when I pay a sub. I pay a full sub, give me my full game! When Blizz tried to implement paid cross realm play with realID friends. Paid account services...
Where to start with EA and Ubisoft beyond their boycott? Yup, keep alienating consumers!
Does not matter how you dress it up suits = return on investment and this = gamer's is last in the pecking order end off!
Our requirements are not a prerequisite for any investment and if you the gamer believes otherwise then you living in Cuckoo land. It used to be all about the gamer but that changed when Wow hit the market place. Go look at what the suits have been up to there trying to sell the company but have failed blissfully. There is no perfect business model for investors or gamer's there have been a few which may have deviated from, the path but as of yet no prefect solution for any party otherwise we would not be here debating about it.
The closest by far to date is Star Citizen and the wolves are not convinced that this is perfect as some gamer are feeling a little concerned that the game will not be as claimed, obviously the proof will be in the pudding as some point. However if SC does prove to be different from the norm then this could change the way we look at suits in the future as self funding if proven to be successful could be a blessing for both the developer and consumer alike.
So for me atm Suit = Blood sucker and I will not change my view until I see other ways of games being funded.
Sales and Marketing will only get you so far when there is such fierce competition. The evidence of this is presented to you annually because every year there is a new MMO that starts strong because of Sales and Marketing but ends weak because it was a bad product from the beginning.
Look at how Wildstar and Archeage started and look at where they are at now.
I'm hoping that Unreal Engine 4 will set a new precedent for all Indy teams.
UE4 costs $20 per month + 3% of whatever they earn with it. I own it myself and it's extremely easy to work with.
Game development / production is out of control. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 cost a total of $200,000,000. $50m of that was used for creating the game, whereas the other $150m was for advertising / production.
This is a common problem with all artistic endeavors. Artists, musicians, and writers have all faced this problem, being told their creation won't sell. "That song won't sell, make it more like pop, and we'll get it on the pop charts." "Your novel, Dune, will never sell", said the first 20 publishers who turned it down. And the artists are all dreaming that they are going to stay true to their art, and that will make them popular.
It's the same with games; many people see games as an art form, like movies. Do you want to have a blockbuster movie? You'd better add all the basic ingredients that sell: violence, sex, flashy graphics. Plot? Not as important. So you end up with indie movie producers who make interesting movies on a shoestring budget.
So you want a professionally done, polished game? Then it takes money, and the people behind the money, the suits, are going to insist you put in the ingredients that sell: WoW clone, cash shop, etc. You want a game that stays true to its art vision? You'll probably have to settle for an indie game done on a shoestring budget.
I'm hoping that Unreal Engine 4 will set a new precedent for all Indy teams.
UE4 costs $20 per month + 3% of whatever they earn with it. I own it myself and it's extremely easy to work with.
Game development / production is out of control. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 cost a total of $200,000,000. $50m of that was used for creating the game, whereas the other $150m was for advertising / production.
I know right!!! Shoot, I think that Unity (Pro) might be the most expensive engine out there right now, lol. Right now I feel like we should be in a golden age of gaming, but........ we're stagnant.
Originally posted by AlBQuirky I respectfully disagree. "Suits" turned MMOs into a business, instead of entertainment.
MMOs have always been both.
Kind of, but it is way out of balance now. Before the thought process went something like: "Can we do this on a computer?" "I think so." "Cool! Can we make money at it?" "Possibly."
MMOs used to be "ideas" that sometimes (many times?) made money. Pushing the technical envelope was the driving force, not making millions, as it seems today.
I could be wrong. I often am Maybe the original developers had dollar signs in their eyes first and foremost
I make my assumption on the differences in MMOs long ago (so much variety) and the similarities of them today.
"Can we do this on a computer?" "I think so." "Cool! Can we make money at it?" "Possibly."
I agree with you there but I don't see it as anything having changed. It isn't so much of a then vs now thing but a hobbyist/indie vs professional studio thing. When your mortgage isn't on the line, you have far more opportunity for risk and creativity than when the game's development is your bread and butter. Size of the studio also makes a difference. The dozen or so that worked on EVE in the beginning, the Above and Beyond Tech team... at that size you can huddle up and commit to the sacrifices by committee in order to get done what you want to get done. A company of 100? 500? The amount of people negatively impacted by a bad decision is the issue. One of the big reasons for avoiding risk sometimes is that the cost is measured not just in revenue but in jobs. Hundreds of them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Clearly we have our next archetype for an MMO... suits vs developers... navigate the treacherous waters of indie game development... take a risk on using kickstarter or find a financial backer... open up the game to early access or keep it closed for further development... avoid the pitfalls... risk everything and go with a sandbox design... thwart the conventions and employ an entirely new scheme... enter the monolithic dungeon of online forums... a game where failure is actually an option.
Originally posted by Dauzqul Game development / production is out of control. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 cost a total of $200,000,000. $50m of that was used for creating the game, whereas the other $150m was for advertising / production.
You mean the same CoD:MW2 that sold 4.7 million copies in 24 hours for a total of $310 million in revenue and set a record for biggest launch of an entertainment product at the time?
If you were trying to prove that Sales and Marketing works then you succeeded.
I'm hoping that Unreal Engine 4 will set a new precedent for all Indy teams.
UE4 costs $20 per month + 3% of whatever they earn with it. I own it myself and it's extremely easy to work with.
Game development / production is out of control. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 cost a total of $200,000,000. $50m of that was used for creating the game, whereas the other $150m was for advertising / production.
I know right!!! Shoot, I think that Unity (Pro) might be the most expensive engine out there right now, lol. Right now I feel like we should be in a golden age of gaming, but........ we're stagnant.
I agree lowering the entry barrier is good because it will hopefully bring more talent to the industry longterm.
But easily attainable engines can't replace years of training and experience, nor can they infuse someone with talent.
Game development / production is out of control. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 cost a total of $200,000,000. $50m of that was used for creating the game, whereas the other $150m was for advertising / production.
You mean the same CoD:MW2 that sold 4.7 million copies in 24 hours for a total of $310 million in revenue and set a record for biggest launch of an entertainment product at the time?
If you were trying to prove that Sales and Marketing works then you succeeded.
I wasn't trying to prove anything. I'm just stating that such costs are out of control.
Compare the creation cost of something like Diablo 3 Vs. Path of Exile. You don't need hundreds of millions...
I'm hoping that Unreal Engine 4 will set a new precedent for all Indy teams.
UE4 costs $20 per month + 3% of whatever they earn with it. I own it myself and it's extremely easy to work with.
Game development / production is out of control. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 cost a total of $200,000,000. $50m of that was used for creating the game, whereas the other $150m was for advertising / production.
I know right!!! Shoot, I think that Unity (Pro) might be the most expensive engine out there right now, lol. Right now I feel like we should be in a golden age of gaming, but........ we're stagnant.
I agree lowering the entry barrier is good because it will hopefully bring more talent to the industry longterm.
But easily attainable engines can't replace years of training and experience, nor can they infuse someone with talent.
That is very true. However, one thing UE4 did was add in a Marketplace. It's fantastic. Users are able to create and sell 3D characters, structures, textures, etc. There is just so much talent out there and they charge virtually nothing.
I wonder why a company would spend countless amounts of money on drawings / images when they can go to deviantart.com and pay someone to do it for 10 bucks.
I'm pretty sure it's not the dollar signs as much as it is the environment.
Microsoft would be a good example. In the early days of computers you would have a bunch of nerds wearing big glasses and eating pizza. This would be a niche group of people. They would have their own ideas and be somewhat separated from the rest of society. They were heavily involved in their nerdy ideas and it showed in their games.
Fast forward to present Microsoft. Everyone is a suit. It doesn't matter if they are a software programmer, someone from public relations, or someone from upper management. They all act like suits and live in a suit environment. Nerds don't really exist anymore IMO. A lot of the niche groups from the past have disappeared. I believe this has had a large impact on gaming. People are more concerned with life and less concerned with technology. People just want the software to work and not be offensive. It is less a labor of love and more a labor of business and how to I please(get the most money out of) x demographic that has x money to spend IMO.
I miss the days of niche groups. Each group had it's downsides and was somewhat rude and inefficient because of it, but a lot more interesting software resulted because of those groups and their ideas.
I was never really in the nerd group. I liked computers a lot and loved installing OS and building computers when I was young, but I didn't start trying to write any programs until the mid 2000s. I had been using computers since the days of DOS and monochrome. I chose to hang out more in the freak group at school. They were usually nice people with some bad habits. Outcasts of society. Nerds were the really smart people. Then you had the preppy people who I mostly hated. I feel like the preppy people have taken over technology and I'm becoming preppy somewhat myself due to necessity.
Anyway you can see there was a lot of diversity in business in those days. Now most people can get along and relate to each other in some way. It's great in terms of being able to get along with everyone, but bad in terms of having diversity and diverse ideas in games. The corporate environment has really taken over of late.
I'm hoping that Unreal Engine 4 will set a new precedent for all Indy teams.
UE4 costs $20 per month + 3% of whatever they earn with it. I own it myself and it's extremely easy to work with.
Game development / production is out of control. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 cost a total of $200,000,000. $50m of that was used for creating the game, whereas the other $150m was for advertising / production.
I know right!!! Shoot, I think that Unity (Pro) might be the most expensive engine out there right now, lol. Right now I feel like we should be in a golden age of gaming, but........ we're stagnant.
I agree lowering the entry barrier is good because it will hopefully bring more talent to the industry longterm.
But easily attainable engines can't replace years of training and experience, nor can they infuse someone with talent.
That is very true. However, one thing UE4 did was add in a Marketplace. It's fantastic. Users are able to create and sell 3D characters, structures, textures, etc. There is just so much talent out there and they charge virtually nothing.
I wonder why a company would spend countless amounts of money on drawings / images when they can go to deviantart.com and pay someone to do it for 10 bucks.
KABLAM!!! IDK Why I always forget about that site except when I'm looking for things to carve into my pumpkin at halloween. Need some sprite sheets and was searching.... literally just an hour ago.
I wonder why a company would spend countless amounts of money on drawings / images when they can go to deviantart.com and pay someone to do it for 10 bucks.
You pay your developer/artists for custom content. If for some reason you just don't want that generic model or engine that 100 of others are using, you will need to get your own custom content and it can cost.
This is the case if you have your own IP (e.g. Star Wars, where finding a $10 asset would probably mean it's a non copyrighted illegal one - which matters when you're an actual business) or if you have specific needs (e.g. needs beyond what the unreal engine provides).
Also you get professional support for the service you purchased, if any is needed.
Still, these kind of things fit the bill nicely for small/medium projects - and this is nice.
I'm pretty sure it's not the dollar signs as much as it is the environment.
Microsoft would be a good example. In the early days of computers you would have a bunch of nerds wearing big glasses and eating pizza. This would be a niche group of people. They would have their own ideas and be somewhat separated from the rest of society. They were heavily involved in their nerdy ideas and it showed in their games.
Fast forward to present Microsoft. Everyone is a suit. It doesn't matter if they are a software programmer, someone from public relations, or someone from upper management. They all act like suits and live in a suit environment. Nerds don't really exist anymore IMO. A lot of the niche groups from the past have disappeared. I believe this has had a large impact on gaming. People are more concerned with life and less concerned with technology. People just want the software to work and not be offensive. It is less a labor of love and more a labor of business and how to I please(get the most money out of) x demographic that has x money to spend IMO.
I miss the days of niche groups. Each group had it's downsides and was somewhat rude and inefficient because of it, but a lot more interesting software resulted because of those groups and their ideas.
I was never really in the nerd group. I liked computers a lot and loved installing OS and building computers when I was young, but I didn't start trying to write any programs until the mid 2000s. I had been using computers since the days of DOS and monochrome. I chose to hang out more in the freak group at school. They were usually nice people with some bad habits. Outcasts of society. Nerds were the really smart people. Then you had the preppy people who I mostly hated. I feel like the preppy people have taken over technology and I'm becoming preppy somewhat myself due to necessity.
Anyway you can see there was a lot of diversity in business in those days. Now most people can get along and relate to each other in some way. It's great in terms of being able to get along with everyone, but bad in terms of having diversity and diverse ideas in games. The corporate environment has really taken over of late.
Microsoft is probably a really good example of what happens when the suits get too much influence, while they are obviously well known for their operating systems, their main business is in office software, thats not to say that the 'suits' haven't had an effect on operating systems either though, but more on that in just a second, Office software is a big earner for Microsoft, its also virtually the only part of the company that remains profitable, their latest idea is to make it even more so, now instead of selling their office software, which included licences for companies based on concurrent numbers using it etc, they now have a 'rental' of to put it another way, subscription model, that really is on a per user basis but overall rather than concurrent, because, you make more money that way, its really not very pretty.
But back to their operating systems, for a while Microsoft has been trying to do the itunes thing, with Windows and Xbox live etc, a market place where customers of both their Console and PC platforms could purchase games etc, it wasn't very good at what it did and people tended to avoid where possible, but now, they have gone one step further, by incorporating it into the Operating System, with Win 8, the store front is literally the first thing you log into when you boot up, and with Win 10 its projected that their XB1 and PC OS's will be even closer aligned, its not about convenience or being user friendly, its just a way of trying to bring the Microsoft storefront into the home, its only ever really been about $$, its a bit like spam emails, if you send out enough of them, then you'll probably generate a few sales, and by Microsoft putting the windows store on everybody's or at least trying to, startup screen, their hoping to make a few $$ through app sales, its a bit like the itunes model, and MS wants their piece.
Typical progressive talking point, everyone who has made it to a higher level (excluding themselves) is some sort of evil person. Oh, they also exclude actors, musicians, corrupt politicians that play to them and athletes.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
I'm pretty sure it's not the dollar signs as much as it is the environment.
Microsoft would be a good example. In the early days of computers you would have a bunch of nerds wearing big glasses and eating pizza. This would be a niche group of people. They would have their own ideas and be somewhat separated from the rest of society. They were heavily involved in their nerdy ideas and it showed in their games.
Fast forward to present Microsoft. Everyone is a suit. It doesn't matter if they are a software programmer, someone from public relations, or someone from upper management. They all act like suits and live in a suit environment. Nerds don't really exist anymore IMO. A lot of the niche groups from the past have disappeared. I believe this has had a large impact on gaming. People are more concerned with life and less concerned with technology. People just want the software to work and not be offensive. It is less a labor of love and more a labor of business and how to I please(get the most money out of) x demographic that has x money to spend IMO.
I miss the days of niche groups. Each group had it's downsides and was somewhat rude and inefficient because of it, but a lot more interesting software resulted because of those groups and their ideas.
I was never really in the nerd group. I liked computers a lot and loved installing OS and building computers when I was young, but I didn't start trying to write any programs until the mid 2000s. I had been using computers since the days of DOS and monochrome. I chose to hang out more in the freak group at school. They were usually nice people with some bad habits. Outcasts of society. Nerds were the really smart people. Then you had the preppy people who I mostly hated. I feel like the preppy people have taken over technology and I'm becoming preppy somewhat myself due to necessity.
Anyway you can see there was a lot of diversity in business in those days. Now most people can get along and relate to each other in some way. It's great in terms of being able to get along with everyone, but bad in terms of having diversity and diverse ideas in games. The corporate environment has really taken over of late.
Microsoft is probably a really good example of what happens when the suits get too much influence, while they are obviously well known for their operating systems, their main business is in office software, thats not to say that the 'suits' haven't had an effect on operating systems either though, but more on that in just a second, Office software is a big earner for Microsoft, its also virtually the only part of the company that remains profitable, their latest idea is to make it even more so, now instead of selling their office software, which included licences for companies based on concurrent numbers using it etc, they now have a 'rental' of to put it another way, subscription model, that really is on a per user basis but overall rather than concurrent, because, you make more money that way, its really not very pretty.
But back to their operating systems, for a while Microsoft has been trying to do the itunes thing, with Windows and Xbox live etc, a market place where customers of both their Console and PC platforms could purchase games etc, it wasn't very good at what it did and people tended to avoid where possible, but now, they have gone one step further, by incorporating it into the Operating System, with Win 8, the store front is literally the first thing you log into when you boot up, and with Win 10 its projected that their XB1 and PC OS's will be even closer aligned, its not about convenience or being user friendly, its just a way of trying to bring the Microsoft storefront into the home, its only ever really been about $$, its a bit like spam emails, if you send out enough of them, then you'll probably generate a few sales, and by Microsoft putting the windows store on everybody's or at least trying to, startup screen, their hoping to make a few $$ through app sales, its a bit like the itunes model, and MS wants their piece.
It's a bit sad because Microsoft was always about geeky gimicks for a long time. Now they are turning into Apple. Luckily the desktop version of Windows can be configured to entirely eliminate the Windows Store if you want. I'm not sure if that will be the case down the road. I know they were talking about a cloud version of Windows. Personally I enjoy spending time on doing things like installing and configuring operating systems. Soon that may be a thing of the past. The only way to get in touch with the more technical side of operating systems is to dig into them these days. In the past command line operations and file systems were a large part of things. I still believe that you can get things done a lot more quickly and efficiently with command line operations than with GUI tools. There is just a steeper learning curve. It's great for managing software on remote PCs that are connected to your network/domain. It's part of why I have started to get into programming more and more. It's the only place you can get some complexity in an operating system these days. Amazingly most people couldn't figure out how to configure Windows 8 to feel more like Windows 7. It's not that hard and doesn't require any third party utilities. I guess we are going back to the normal start menu in Windows 10. Windows 10 looks even more like Apple sadly. Personally I never liked signing into anything. I dislike how devices today all require you to sign in to download software. I guess it's the way of the future.
Everyone paints financial powers as evil; claims are made that they stifle innovation and manipulate or even limit creativity. What people overlook is, they drive progress and ensure results. They act as anchors to keep devs grounded and realistic. With the popularity of ks rising, devs continue to assert that corporate suits act as obstacles to realizing their dreams, while the public further condemns them as they lose themselves in exaggerated promises of the impossible being attainable.
How many times have you heard “We had to launch 6 months before we were ready”? People forget resources are finite, and it’s the corporate people that ensure games get released. Over the recent years, all I’ve read is ‘We reluctantly took our game in that direction because the suits upstairs made us’. ‘Activision is only concerned with the bottom line’, devs are too but they’d never admit it. ‘We don’t want that money, they’ll make us duplicate WoW’, investors assess situations diligently and probably concluded the game would be too niche to be profitable with its proposed features. Mmo’s don’t exist without profit, that’s why f2p and p2p games alike have cash shops. Players pay beyond server costs because devs want money too. There are instances where designs are negotiated, not because financial powers want to be creative barriers but because they wish to reach a wider audience. Devs have been known to lose sight of this and believe the entire world will surely partake as their vision is utter perfection.
Regardless of the position you take in the gaming industry, unless you can finance your own dreams, you are going to have someone to answer to; everyone has a boss. In a ks campaign, investors take the form of backers. They often forget their role and proclaim themselves as loyal supporters until ventures are abandoned and reality sets in. That’s when people cry “Fraud!” and exclaim ks starters scammed them of their money with no consolation or little recourse. They too have expectations, they expect promises to be fulfilled and milestones reached in a timely manner.
It's rare that dev teams account for their shortcomings or overreaching designs, there is a tendency to pass the buck. Countless designers complain that they are never given enough time to complete their vision; features had to be compromised and games were rushed to launch without polish. With this declaration, gamers share their disappointment in what could have been and further blame publishers. Sometimes, there's just no money for 6 more months. Numerous games and ideas would go on forever, perpetually improving with improbable success in reaching perfection without repeated nudges from publishers. The world runs on commerce, and a project that never concludes is a money sink; no reasonable person would continually throw money at those endeavors indefinitely.
Imagine the reaction if a dev team repeatedly extends deadlines and financial goals without offering tangible results. Ks backers finance campaigns because they want a completed playable product, while corporate financers seek profit, regardless of their personal interest in the project. Everyone expects progress reports to be released regularly. It is unreasonable for devs to demand decade long deadlines while being paid premium wages for that duration. Furthermore, it is egregious to expect the public to wait forever for a playable game.
Investors and publishers should be considered from a different perspective rather than condemned as villains. Devs and gamers need to acknowledge games for the business enterprises that they really are. People don’t do things for free, not the creative minds behind endeavors, nor the programmers that realize visions. To believe otherwise would be naïve.
Edit:
I was wrong! They are indeed villainous shits!
This post is classic, down to the next day edit. I didn't even see the comments yet. This one deserves truffle oil popcorn...
Originally posted by rasiem I belive we gave the suites the power they have so its not really their fault.. If you dont like it dont buy it this gives us the control back . Personally if MMO's keep heading down this road the only one that will last is WoW.. They own way to much of the market to ever fail. Its funny because I would bet that most people who play other mmos also have subs to WoW to leep up on updates. No I dont play WoW I quit when I hit 100.
Comments
(I think I just jinxed your link, though. Sorry about that
)
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
The only time the suits paint themselves the villain is when the put the bottom line ahead of creativity and entertainment.
Despite what some might like to believe, it isn't the suits who are doling out the salaries to the devs, it's plays dropping all that cash for the finished product(s). Nobody buying games = no jobs for anyone, period.
Deliver a bad game.. aka the suits rushing out an unfinished product to capitalize, while initially some money may be made, a tarnished reputation will do far more damage than any money acquired on the unfinished product.
Think about it.. take 3 games that took a heavy beating upon release (and still do to this day), Diablo 3, Archeage, and ESO..
If one could ask all the players who ever touched any of those games if they'd ever touch a product again made by those particular developers or publishers, what do you think they're answer will be? Especially Archeage, it was always "I'll never touch a game done by Trion or XL Games again"
Ya.. hows that bottom line working out for you...
The bottom line should be secondary, never a priority.
Well, sometimes funds just run out.
In all fairness, I must acknowledge indelible sin committed by Activision and or Blizzard as they strongly appear to be business decisions. D3's BMAH has made me boycott all products beyond WoW. The extremes they go through to bleed consumers despite detriments to their games....it's devastating. WoW's cash shop and its exclusive items; cosmetic or not, I expect in-game attainability when I pay a sub. I pay a full sub, give me my full game! When Blizz tried to implement paid cross realm play with realID friends. Paid account services...
Where to start with EA and Ubisoft beyond their boycott? Yup, keep alienating consumers!
I was wrong! They are indeed villainous shits!
Does not matter how you dress it up suits = return on investment and this = gamer's is last in the pecking order end off!
Our requirements are not a prerequisite for any investment and if you the gamer believes otherwise then you living in Cuckoo land. It used to be all about the gamer but that changed when Wow hit the market place. Go look at what the suits have been up to there trying to sell the company but have failed blissfully. There is no perfect business model for investors or gamer's there have been a few which may have deviated from, the path but as of yet no prefect solution for any party otherwise we would not be here debating about it.
The closest by far to date is Star Citizen and the wolves are not convinced that this is perfect as some gamer are feeling a little concerned that the game will not be as claimed, obviously the proof will be in the pudding as some point. However if SC does prove to be different from the norm then this could change the way we look at suits in the future as self funding if proven to be successful could be a blessing for both the developer and consumer alike.
So for me atm Suit = Blood sucker and I will not change my view until I see other ways of games being funded.
Asbo
Let me put it this way .. without suits, there will be no AAA game, and only indie stuff.
You can't run multi-million dollar projects without suits.
So, this video would only be relevant to WoW.
Sales and Marketing will only get you so far when there is such fierce competition. The evidence of this is presented to you annually because every year there is a new MMO that starts strong because of Sales and Marketing but ends weak because it was a bad product from the beginning.
Look at how Wildstar and Archeage started and look at where they are at now.
I'm hoping that Unreal Engine 4 will set a new precedent for all Indy teams.
UE4 costs $20 per month + 3% of whatever they earn with it. I own it myself and it's extremely easy to work with.
Game development / production is out of control. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 cost a total of $200,000,000. $50m of that was used for creating the game, whereas the other $150m was for advertising / production.
This is a common problem with all artistic endeavors. Artists, musicians, and writers have all faced this problem, being told their creation won't sell. "That song won't sell, make it more like pop, and we'll get it on the pop charts." "Your novel, Dune, will never sell", said the first 20 publishers who turned it down. And the artists are all dreaming that they are going to stay true to their art, and that will make them popular.
It's the same with games; many people see games as an art form, like movies. Do you want to have a blockbuster movie? You'd better add all the basic ingredients that sell: violence, sex, flashy graphics. Plot? Not as important. So you end up with indie movie producers who make interesting movies on a shoestring budget.
So you want a professionally done, polished game? Then it takes money, and the people behind the money, the suits, are going to insist you put in the ingredients that sell: WoW clone, cash shop, etc. You want a game that stays true to its art vision? You'll probably have to settle for an indie game done on a shoestring budget.
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
I know right!!! Shoot, I think that Unity (Pro) might be the most expensive engine out there right now, lol. Right now I feel like we should be in a golden age of gaming, but........ we're stagnant.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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"Can we do this on a computer?"
"I think so."
"Cool! Can we make money at it?"
"Possibly."
I agree with you there but I don't see it as anything having changed. It isn't so much of a then vs now thing but a hobbyist/indie vs professional studio thing. When your mortgage isn't on the line, you have far more opportunity for risk and creativity than when the game's development is your bread and butter. Size of the studio also makes a difference. The dozen or so that worked on EVE in the beginning, the Above and Beyond Tech team... at that size you can huddle up and commit to the sacrifices by committee in order to get done what you want to get done. A company of 100? 500? The amount of people negatively impacted by a bad decision is the issue. One of the big reasons for avoiding risk sometimes is that the cost is measured not just in revenue but in jobs. Hundreds of them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If you were trying to prove that Sales and Marketing works then you succeeded.
I agree lowering the entry barrier is good because it will hopefully bring more talent to the industry longterm.
But easily attainable engines can't replace years of training and experience, nor can they infuse someone with talent.
I wasn't trying to prove anything. I'm just stating that such costs are out of control.
Compare the creation cost of something like Diablo 3 Vs. Path of Exile. You don't need hundreds of millions...
That is very true. However, one thing UE4 did was add in a Marketplace. It's fantastic. Users are able to create and sell 3D characters, structures, textures, etc. There is just so much talent out there and they charge virtually nothing.
I wonder why a company would spend countless amounts of money on drawings / images when they can go to deviantart.com and pay someone to do it for 10 bucks.
I'm pretty sure it's not the dollar signs as much as it is the environment.
Microsoft would be a good example. In the early days of computers you would have a bunch of nerds wearing big glasses and eating pizza. This would be a niche group of people. They would have their own ideas and be somewhat separated from the rest of society. They were heavily involved in their nerdy ideas and it showed in their games.
Fast forward to present Microsoft. Everyone is a suit. It doesn't matter if they are a software programmer, someone from public relations, or someone from upper management. They all act like suits and live in a suit environment. Nerds don't really exist anymore IMO. A lot of the niche groups from the past have disappeared. I believe this has had a large impact on gaming. People are more concerned with life and less concerned with technology. People just want the software to work and not be offensive. It is less a labor of love and more a labor of business and how to I please(get the most money out of) x demographic that has x money to spend IMO.
I miss the days of niche groups. Each group had it's downsides and was somewhat rude and inefficient because of it, but a lot more interesting software resulted because of those groups and their ideas.
I was never really in the nerd group. I liked computers a lot and loved installing OS and building computers when I was young, but I didn't start trying to write any programs until the mid 2000s. I had been using computers since the days of DOS and monochrome. I chose to hang out more in the freak group at school. They were usually nice people with some bad habits. Outcasts of society. Nerds were the really smart people. Then you had the preppy people who I mostly hated. I feel like the preppy people have taken over technology and I'm becoming preppy somewhat myself due to necessity.
Anyway you can see there was a lot of diversity in business in those days. Now most people can get along and relate to each other in some way. It's great in terms of being able to get along with everyone, but bad in terms of having diversity and diverse ideas in games. The corporate environment has really taken over of late.
KABLAM!!! IDK Why I always forget about that site except when I'm looking for things to carve into my pumpkin at halloween. Need some sprite sheets and was searching.... literally just an hour ago.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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"The suits"
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You pay your developer/artists for custom content. If for some reason you just don't want that generic model or engine that 100 of others are using, you will need to get your own custom content and it can cost.
This is the case if you have your own IP (e.g. Star Wars, where finding a $10 asset would probably mean it's a non copyrighted illegal one - which matters when you're an actual business) or if you have specific needs (e.g. needs beyond what the unreal engine provides).
Also you get professional support for the service you purchased, if any is needed.
Still, these kind of things fit the bill nicely for small/medium projects - and this is nice.
Microsoft is probably a really good example of what happens when the suits get too much influence, while they are obviously well known for their operating systems, their main business is in office software, thats not to say that the 'suits' haven't had an effect on operating systems either though, but more on that in just a second, Office software is a big earner for Microsoft, its also virtually the only part of the company that remains profitable, their latest idea is to make it even more so, now instead of selling their office software, which included licences for companies based on concurrent numbers using it etc, they now have a 'rental' of to put it another way, subscription model, that really is on a per user basis but overall rather than concurrent, because, you make more money that way, its really not very pretty.
But back to their operating systems, for a while Microsoft has been trying to do the itunes thing, with Windows and Xbox live etc, a market place where customers of both their Console and PC platforms could purchase games etc, it wasn't very good at what it did and people tended to avoid where possible, but now, they have gone one step further, by incorporating it into the Operating System, with Win 8, the store front is literally the first thing you log into when you boot up, and with Win 10 its projected that their XB1 and PC OS's will be even closer aligned, its not about convenience or being user friendly, its just a way of trying to bring the Microsoft storefront into the home, its only ever really been about $$, its a bit like spam emails, if you send out enough of them, then you'll probably generate a few sales, and by Microsoft putting the windows store on everybody's or at least trying to, startup screen, their hoping to make a few $$ through app sales, its a bit like the itunes model, and MS wants their piece.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
It's a bit sad because Microsoft was always about geeky gimicks for a long time. Now they are turning into Apple. Luckily the desktop version of Windows can be configured to entirely eliminate the Windows Store if you want. I'm not sure if that will be the case down the road. I know they were talking about a cloud version of Windows. Personally I enjoy spending time on doing things like installing and configuring operating systems. Soon that may be a thing of the past. The only way to get in touch with the more technical side of operating systems is to dig into them these days. In the past command line operations and file systems were a large part of things. I still believe that you can get things done a lot more quickly and efficiently with command line operations than with GUI tools. There is just a steeper learning curve. It's great for managing software on remote PCs that are connected to your network/domain. It's part of why I have started to get into programming more and more. It's the only place you can get some complexity in an operating system these days. Amazingly most people couldn't figure out how to configure Windows 8 to feel more like Windows 7. It's not that hard and doesn't require any third party utilities. I guess we are going back to the normal start menu in Windows 10. Windows 10 looks even more like Apple sadly. Personally I never liked signing into anything. I dislike how devices today all require you to sign in to download software. I guess it's the way of the future.
This post is classic, down to the next day edit. I didn't even see the comments yet. This one deserves truffle oil popcorn...
/sheepishly raises his hand