im so happy this was posted. its awesome everytime i see other mmo players who know of sao. great show! and i hope i live long enough to play a game that is really like this.
.Hack
Log Horizon
both about mmo's as well. SAO is probably the best of the 3, but these 2 are awesoem. .Hack was what brought me to mmo's in the first place. didnt even know they existed when i had first seen .Hack//Sign. wanted so bad to play a game like in the show. when i found mmo's, went crazy. haha
im so happy this was posted. its awesome everytime i see other mmo players who know of sao. great show! and i hope i live long enough to play a game that is really like this.
.Hack
Log Horizon
both about mmo's as well. SAO is probably the best of the 3, but these 2 are awesoem. .Hack was what brought me to mmo's in the first place. didnt even know they existed when i had first seen .Hack//Sign. wanted so bad to play a game like in the show. when i found mmo's, went crazy. haha
SAO has good production values and some interesting ideas, but the plot is mediocre to outright awful and it can't really translate to real world game design.
Perma death will never be popular because it makes the game tedious and un-fun if you have to re-do the noob island 500 times. In SAO the players were forced into it against their will - it was never a selling point that attracted them to the game.
Perma-death as a dramatic story telling device is interesting, but not exactly a great gameplay mechanic.
The most obvious problem is that monetization is never taken into account in the series. You can't design an MMO where only 1 player can be the 'hero' and be the only one with the 2 handed skill or get OP epic gear like excaliber.
Other players who paid the same amount as Kirito to play the game (unless its FTP and Kirito is a whale) will view the game as inherently unfair and poorly balanced. They will complain to the developers until things are made more equal or just quit the game.
MMOs simply cannot work if all players do not share the same progression path for their chosen playstyle.
The 'mystery' aspect is also dumb because no developer is going to spend money putting content into their game and then hide it from players.
Great series. Well the first half was the best I think. It would be great to have a lot of interesting things that the series talked about. (Kind of a .Hack really) I really liked the tower idea. Ridiculously large dungeons with a boss room that changes location, so every time you fail you had to find your way again (I know the show didn't have things randomly switching). Eventually bosses get so hard you need more and more people to help... creating alliances. I immediately thought of how this simple setup could be interesting in real mmos.
Permadeath is bascially just hardcore mode in Diablo. Shaiya had permadeath on Hard Mode characters.
I think a game where 1 person is king would be great. When they are overthrown after a certain timeframe someone else can take the title. There's definitely a way of incoporating this in MMOs.
The truth of the matter is that until AI gets better we can never "live" in SAO. I know the major theme was perma death and unique character development, but we, as gamers, i think, would benefit most with AI that acts less scripted. AI should adapts to your play style forcing you to always be on your toes in a fight. AI should act like another player in PvP. lets face it, PvP has become the ONLY challange in an MMO and it is what most players seek out. But for the older casuals (i hate that term and perfer to say "the family man with short amounts of time a day") player is mostly relying on Pve for entertainment with the occasional open world PvP. With advancements in AI i think we will see better games.
On another note. Developers need to take a page from EVE Online and put out ACTUAL updates to their games. And think about adding another layer to thier games like CCP is trying to integrate Dust (FPS) to EVE.
I would not invest time or energy in a game with permadeath, Unless I had the option to not take part in combat/pvp, and still have lots to do as a non-combatant.
I am still waiting for the game that puts as much work and thought into crafting, social, and politics as it does in combat. I have yet to "really" see that. For instance, I would like to see the "crafter" class,the "politician" class, and the "trader" class. When I see these classes I will begin to have hope that games have started looking beyond the Combat-combat-combat box.
More than permadeath I would like to see the "one character only" concept brought into games, I'm bored with the "my 7 characters do everything" mentality the stifles real opportunity in games.
Finally I would like to see the ability to actually make your own items and/or art. second life managed it a very long time ago, and they had a huge player base, yet mmorpgs still don't have it. doing so would allow people to look unique in their clothing and items, also real talent would be introduced into the game.
I don't know SAO, but I loved the .hack series. SAO seams similar for what I've read.
My FFXIV ARR referral code for new EU accounts: 5JPF7ZQ3 Step into the amazing world of Eorzea! Use this reference code on a new account and we'll both get goodies for it!
It's important to remember that the permadeath in SOA is a trick, foisted on the inhabitants without their will or prior knowledge. They did not enter the game with any concept or willingness for permadeath. In Fact the permadeath in SAO is a side point, the reason a character dies is because the player has supposedly died; or at least that is what everyone is told...
Its also worth remembering that everyone is desperate to GET OUT OF THE GAME :P
I actually watched both seasons and the second starts as a fps Gun Gale Online, where people can log in and out. But still are killed at the same time as in-game. The lesson to be learned is how can you screen young adults. If things become too realistic that you are traumatized killing someone in-game, how will you deal with it. Will online moderators screen you while playing and take action like in Minority Report banning you from the world. I think we have to be very careful of our privacy and our thoughts. I would like to have 200% secure firewalls against possible hackers. And what will bugs do to your brain? Will they ever find beta testers with the posibility your brain might get fried?
In the distant future when people have secure digital ID's and the internet is highly regulated and policed, it will be possible to have "permadeath" in online games.
In that scenario, players can be effectively limited to one "life" in a specific game. Once their character dies, they will be unable to play that specific game again. Attempting to play by using a "borrowed" digital-ID will incur serious RL penalties due to it being classed as "identity fraud".
There's nothing to learn from Sword Art Online. It's shit almost across the board. The only things holding it up are Yuki Kaijura's music, a strong art team, and a starving nerd fanbase who will eat up any crappy anime as long as it's MMO-themed.
There aren't many MMO animes, but they're all better than Sword Art. If there's anything to be learned from any of them, try Log Horizon. It shows evidence of epic, world-changing quest chains, meaningful flavor text on epic gear, world politics, and important, dynamic NPC's.
I don't know what MMOs can learn from SAO but one thing we can all learn from it is to never, ever, under any circumstances use a VR headset that works with microwave radiation
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by MadnessRealm I'd really love to see a step away from Auction Houses or having a map filled with Player-run NPCs selling all their stuffs. I'd like to see Crafters (Players) have their own houses they can turn into stores, and put their wares on display. Sure you can hire an NPC to attend to your shop as you can't expect the player to be constantly there, but it would still be a player-run shop. As for players who just want to sell the shiny new sword they just dropped but don't need, well they can just sell it to a player-run shop and that player will take care of selling it.
100% Ultima Online. Even had Player Bazaars in Britain where people were verbally selling their goods in what is the equivalent of /say now. Animal tamers lining up horses and the like for sale. Bakers selling baked goods. Treasure hunters and scoundrels looking for black market stuff.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
If there are 5 thing MMOs Could learn from Sword Art Online in a point of game design, they are
1 - New way to gaming
VR brain control action may be too future , but first person view and better control can do with what we current have
2 - Active in game GameMaster that have ability to change things if in need .
GameMaster watch you , and he's top player and role as last boss . For the glory of cheating
3 - Open world
Bring drama to MMO since 1999
4 - Well make NPC and Quests
SAO don't talk much about the NPC , but the quests weren't quest hubs . Quests give you item reward and unlock new things. But they not WOW quests hubs . Dungeon and monster hunt bring player together .
5 - Long term plan for your game .
They plan 100 floors at the start of game , and have full 100 floors at the release .
After 2 year clean game , player only hit floor 70+
At lest nowadays MMOs need to make the content that player will play for next 3 to 5 years at they release . Or else go and make singleplayer game .
Major problem with mmos today is: they'r extremelly massive! Almost no one interacts like before, because no one cares for other players, since there's a LOT of other players!
Back in the 90's, on mmos like Ultima Online, The 4th Coming, Meridian 59 and The Realm, ppl interacted because there were fewer players. An oficial T4C server could hold a maximum of 200 players simultaneously, and this never happened! And you had no automated auction houses, so, if you wanted to buy/sell an item, you would have to find a player to trade with, or find someone that had the item so you try to kill em fori t!
One other thing: those mmos cared about begginers and mid-game content. Actual mmos only care about END-GAME content... you don't get the same impact in the game in mid-game as you get on the end-game content! Today mmos are focused ONLY on end-game raids, end-game pvp, end-game story twists...
Try playing the 4th coming or ultima on a pré-aos osi-like shard... you'll care for survival from the start! You'll care for low and mid-range equipment, because they'll actually HELPyou to progress!
Now, take a look at world of warcraft, archage, age of conan, ESO... NOBODY cares for a rare/legendary/unique mid-lvl sword, as they'll change it in 2-3 lvls for a common equipment that's better!
In Ultima, you could use blacksmithing to repair low and mid-range weapons and armors, as they were usefull... in a game like archage,why would you care about the itens you can make with blacksmith on the first few lvls of blacksmithing, if no one wants em, and by the time youcan make those, you'llnot be needing em?
And this goes for non-mmo games as well! Let me get diablo as an example! Back in the diablo 2 pré-1.09 patch, sigon set was a MUST to lvling a character. In diablo 3, anything that's not ilvl 70 is trash!
If mmos can learn something is: make low population servers, with a hard lvling curve, higher equipment changing ranges, and a plot that's interesting from the beggining!
I've never seen Sword Art Online. But none of those suggestions are new for this genre. People have been saying this stuff for years. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the Anime probably learned those from MMORPGs. But MMORPGs have gotten away from those to pursue action combat.
Please do yourself a favor and watch Log Horizon. SAO does not compare, it's just flashy fights with nothing behind them. Basicaly it's the picture of what is wrong with the current MMORPGs. Soloers being the heroes. Progressive grind (100 level tower). High level player invincible compared to low levels. The list goes on ....
If characters were as unique as fingerprints, perhaps that may lend. But with so man speedrunners and elitist gamers it tends to be difficult. My biggest gripe with a favorite, FF11, was that as soon as you were X levels gapped by friends you were screwed. Left behind to scrounge or even touch temptation and cheat. If there was some manner of personalization to your character rather than a cookie cutter approach it'd help. I suppose presently it comes down to limits: Developer content vs Player content, hardware vs software. Perhaps we'll see that direction to come, but for now we're still learning to walk, and there is the matter of players who don't play mmo's to socialize.
Comments
im so happy this was posted. its awesome everytime i see other mmo players who know of sao. great show! and i hope i live long enough to play a game that is really like this.
.Hack
Log Horizon
both about mmo's as well. SAO is probably the best of the 3, but these 2 are awesoem. .Hack was what brought me to mmo's in the first place. didnt even know they existed when i had first seen .Hack//Sign. wanted so bad to play a game like in the show. when i found mmo's, went crazy. haha
im so happy this was posted. its awesome everytime i see other mmo players who know of sao. great show! and i hope i live long enough to play a game that is really like this.
.Hack
Log Horizon
both about mmo's as well. SAO is probably the best of the 3, but these 2 are awesoem. .Hack was what brought me to mmo's in the first place. didnt even know they existed when i had first seen .Hack//Sign. wanted so bad to play a game like in the show. when i found mmo's, went crazy. haha
SAO has good production values and some interesting ideas, but the plot is mediocre to outright awful and it can't really translate to real world game design.
Perma death will never be popular because it makes the game tedious and un-fun if you have to re-do the noob island 500 times. In SAO the players were forced into it against their will - it was never a selling point that attracted them to the game.
Perma-death as a dramatic story telling device is interesting, but not exactly a great gameplay mechanic.
The most obvious problem is that monetization is never taken into account in the series. You can't design an MMO where only 1 player can be the 'hero' and be the only one with the 2 handed skill or get OP epic gear like excaliber.
Other players who paid the same amount as Kirito to play the game (unless its FTP and Kirito is a whale) will view the game as inherently unfair and poorly balanced. They will complain to the developers until things are made more equal or just quit the game.
MMOs simply cannot work if all players do not share the same progression path for their chosen playstyle.
The 'mystery' aspect is also dumb because no developer is going to spend money putting content into their game and then hide it from players.
Great series. Well the first half was the best I think. It would be great to have a lot of interesting things that the series talked about. (Kind of a .Hack really) I really liked the tower idea. Ridiculously large dungeons with a boss room that changes location, so every time you fail you had to find your way again (I know the show didn't have things randomly switching). Eventually bosses get so hard you need more and more people to help... creating alliances. I immediately thought of how this simple setup could be interesting in real mmos.
Permadeath is bascially just hardcore mode in Diablo. Shaiya had permadeath on Hard Mode characters.
I think a game where 1 person is king would be great. When they are overthrown after a certain timeframe someone else can take the title. There's definitely a way of incoporating this in MMOs.
Now bring on the true virtual reality!
The only thing I took away from this article is that the writer wants SAO to be an actual MMO. Okay...
I want Bleach to be an actual 3D MMORPG too rather than the afk game style that is currently out. Here's hoping I suppose.
The truth of the matter is that until AI gets better we can never "live" in SAO. I know the major theme was perma death and unique character development, but we, as gamers, i think, would benefit most with AI that acts less scripted. AI should adapts to your play style forcing you to always be on your toes in a fight. AI should act like another player in PvP. lets face it, PvP has become the ONLY challange in an MMO and it is what most players seek out. But for the older casuals (i hate that term and perfer to say "the family man with short amounts of time a day") player is mostly relying on Pve for entertainment with the occasional open world PvP. With advancements in AI i think we will see better games.
On another note. Developers need to take a page from EVE Online and put out ACTUAL updates to their games. And think about adding another layer to thier games like CCP is trying to integrate Dust (FPS) to EVE.
I would play a "Berserk" mmo...
I would not invest time or energy in a game with permadeath, Unless I had the option to not take part in combat/pvp, and still have lots to do as a non-combatant.
I am still waiting for the game that puts as much work and thought into crafting, social, and politics as it does in combat. I have yet to "really" see that. For instance, I would like to see the "crafter" class,the "politician" class, and the "trader" class. When I see these classes I will begin to have hope that games have started looking beyond the Combat-combat-combat box.
More than permadeath I would like to see the "one character only" concept brought into games, I'm bored with the "my 7 characters do everything" mentality the stifles real opportunity in games.
Finally I would like to see the ability to actually make your own items and/or art. second life managed it a very long time ago, and they had a huge player base, yet mmorpgs still don't have it. doing so would allow people to look unique in their clothing and items, also real talent would be introduced into the game.
Thanks for listening
I appreciate this article.
My FFXIV ARR referral code for new EU accounts: 5JPF7ZQ3
Step into the amazing world of Eorzea! Use this reference code on a new account and we'll both get goodies for it!
It's important to remember that the permadeath in SOA is a trick, foisted on the inhabitants without their will or prior knowledge. They did not enter the game with any concept or willingness for permadeath. In Fact the permadeath in SAO is a side point, the reason a character dies is because the player has supposedly died; or at least that is what everyone is told...
Its also worth remembering that everyone is desperate to GET OUT OF THE GAME :P
In the distant future when people have secure digital ID's and the internet is highly regulated and policed, it will be possible to have "permadeath" in online games.
In that scenario, players can be effectively limited to one "life" in a specific game. Once their character dies, they will be unable to play that specific game again. Attempting to play by using a "borrowed" digital-ID will incur serious RL penalties due to it being classed as "identity fraud".
There's nothing to learn from Sword Art Online. It's shit almost across the board. The only things holding it up are Yuki Kaijura's music, a strong art team, and a starving nerd fanbase who will eat up any crappy anime as long as it's MMO-themed.
There aren't many MMO animes, but they're all better than Sword Art. If there's anything to be learned from any of them, try Log Horizon. It shows evidence of epic, world-changing quest chains, meaningful flavor text on epic gear, world politics, and important, dynamic NPC's.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Nobody cares bout perma death only a few "hardcore", dunno bout socializing but I dont care bout internet ppl.
Log horizon!
100% Ultima Online. Even had Player Bazaars in Britain where people were verbally selling their goods in what is the equivalent of /say now. Animal tamers lining up horses and the like for sale. Bakers selling baked goods. Treasure hunters and scoundrels looking for black market stuff.
If there are 5 thing MMOs Could learn from Sword Art Online in a point of game design, they are
1 - New way to gaming
VR brain control action may be too future , but first person view and better control can do with what we current have
2 - Active in game GameMaster that have ability to change things if in need .
GameMaster watch you , and he's top player and role as last boss . For the glory of cheating
3 - Open world
Bring drama to MMO since 1999
4 - Well make NPC and Quests
SAO don't talk much about the NPC , but the quests weren't quest hubs . Quests give you item reward and unlock new things. But they not WOW quests hubs . Dungeon and monster hunt bring player together .
5 - Long term plan for your game .
They plan 100 floors at the start of game , and have full 100 floors at the release .
After 2 year clean game , player only hit floor 70+
At lest nowadays MMOs need to make the content that player will play for next 3 to 5 years at they release . Or else go and make singleplayer game .
Major problem with mmos today is: they'r extremelly massive! Almost no one interacts like before, because no one cares for other players, since there's a LOT of other players!
Back in the 90's, on mmos like Ultima Online, The 4th Coming, Meridian 59 and The Realm, ppl interacted because there were fewer players. An oficial T4C server could hold a maximum of 200 players simultaneously, and this never happened! And you had no automated auction houses, so, if you wanted to buy/sell an item, you would have to find a player to trade with, or find someone that had the item so you try to kill em fori t!
One other thing: those mmos cared about begginers and mid-game content. Actual mmos only care about END-GAME content... you don't get the same impact in the game in mid-game as you get on the end-game content! Today mmos are focused ONLY on end-game raids, end-game pvp, end-game story twists...
Try playing the 4th coming or ultima on a pré-aos osi-like shard... you'll care for survival from the start! You'll care for low and mid-range equipment, because they'll actually HELPyou to progress!
Now, take a look at world of warcraft, archage, age of conan, ESO... NOBODY cares for a rare/legendary/unique mid-lvl sword, as they'll change it in 2-3 lvls for a common equipment that's better!
In Ultima, you could use blacksmithing to repair low and mid-range weapons and armors, as they were usefull... in a game like archage,why would you care about the itens you can make with blacksmith on the first few lvls of blacksmithing, if no one wants em, and by the time youcan make those, you'llnot be needing em?
And this goes for non-mmo games as well! Let me get diablo as an example! Back in the diablo 2 pré-1.09 patch, sigon set was a MUST to lvling a character. In diablo 3, anything that's not ilvl 70 is trash!
If mmos can learn something is: make low population servers, with a hard lvling curve, higher equipment changing ranges, and a plot that's interesting from the beggining!
Not because there are a lot of player that they don't care for each other . They don't care because there are no reason to care about.
You solo quest from start to end , use LFG and jump on instance. There are no reason to care.
In the old day , gameplay mechanic work in difference ways .
You play with same group for few hours and you have time make friend with other . And it not something like done the quest or finish instance .
You may group with they in long time even though your level and gears difference .
That don't happen in nowadays MMOs , difference quest , difference instance , difference level . All of they stop player care about other in MMO.
Then again , the logic have only 1 flaw . WOW's success .
I've never seen Sword Art Online. But none of those suggestions are new for this genre. People have been saying this stuff for years. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the Anime probably learned those from MMORPGs. But MMORPGs have gotten away from those to pursue action combat.
That article was hilarious! Thank you!
Please do yourself a favor and watch Log Horizon. SAO does not compare, it's just flashy fights with nothing behind them. Basicaly it's the picture of what is wrong with the current MMORPGs. Soloers being the heroes. Progressive grind (100 level tower). High level player invincible compared to low levels. The list goes on ....
Log Horizon is what an MMORPG should be about.