this is the stupidest thing ive ever heard of. Satan has corrupted your mind dude. first off god is strict and punishing but is allso just and merciful the old testiment does talk about that story you wrote about. God wanted there to be nothing left of the city and its people because they were evil and were not christian or in that time period jews. there are many stories of god killing people who dont follow him and sometimes thoughs who do because those people are sinners and are unworthy of him he may love us but we are still his creatons just like you must obey your father and if you dont he punnishes you god does too and sometimes that punishment is death. but remember when jesus died on the cross for us the rules changed. God is still the same but we are forgivin. for christians death is not a punnishment because we go to heaven no matter what we do here on earth as long as we beleive that Jesus died on the cross and ask him to come into our hearts and lead us through life. This is an awesome thing we are not worthy in the slightest just the fact that he did this for us is a sighn of the most awesome and forgiving god we could ask for. we are imperfect and he is not and because of that we should die. but instead we live. Jesus changed the rules, he said he was the son of god but in realality he was god he just tries to simplify stuff for us. anyway read your bible and go to church youll eventually understand.
Dont be confused about that man...GOD is a good God. He is righteous but he aint no phoney either.He punishes the wicked! But God is also merciful thats why he GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON TO SAVE US FROM SIN. We are sinners even if we dont admit it.Dont forget that Jesus also said that he came not to erase the old testament but to fulfill it.Lean not on your own understanding but in Him.Isnt it wonderful to know that he sacrificed his Son just to save us? God is a perfect God.
Be aware that Lucifer is a deceitful snake. If you were in Gods shoes and one of your creation wants to take over and play as God himself...what would you do?
Originally posted by willietdog this is the stupidest thing ive ever heard of. Satan has corrupted your mind dude. first off god is strict and punishing but is allso just and merciful the old testiment does talk about that story you wrote about. God wanted there to be nothing left of the city and its people because they were evil and were not christian or in that time period jews. there are many stories of god killing people who dont follow him and sometimes thoughs who do because those people are sinners and are unworthy of him he may love us but we are still his creatons just like you must obey your father and if you dont he punnishes you god does too and sometimes that punishment is death. but remember when jesus died on the cross for us the rules changed. God is still the same but we are forgivin. for christians death is not a punnishment because we go to heaven no matter what we do here on earth as long as we beleive that Jesus died on the cross and ask him to come into our hearts and lead us through life. This is an awesome thing we are not worthy in the slightest just the fact that he did this for us is a sighn of the most awesome and forgiving god we could ask for. we are imperfect and he is not and because of that we should die. but instead we live. Jesus changed the rules, he said he was the son of god but in realality he was god he just tries to simplify stuff for us. anyway read your bible and go to church youll eventually understand.
A 13 year old talking in absolutes and telling me to read my Bible.
I took religion classes everyday for 15 years, and all it showed me was that the Bible is a flaw ridden pile of rubbish. Don't act like you know the answer to God. If God does exist, you can't begin to fathom him. I'll respect your belief in God, but you need to learn to respect my beliefs, too.
For all you people out there who think God is created sin and evilnesyuor wrong. God couldnot create sin because he is Holy and Righteous and creating sin would make him evil. God is also very merciful and loving ( john 3:16) and rewards those loyal to him(whole book of Job). Yes, I will respect your beleifs if you think there is no God ,but just a warning your wrong. If you dont beleive in Jesus as your saviour thhan you will go to hell(ya it's a real place). And why not beleive you got nothing to lose, you beleive in jesus live your life serving him then spend eternity in Heaven.All you miss is immoral thingsthat will get you in trouble. If you dont beleive try reading something about God from different points of views before condeming others beleifs and saying you got the ideas from harry potter is just a stupid excuse. And if you thing that the Bible s wrong get a clue if it's wrong why have so many historical facts in it been proved true. And anither the Bible has not changed thru translation, like a couple decades back some shepherds found some scrolls ina cave by the dead sea( the Dead Sea Scrolls) and sold them at a market not knowing what they were,then a christian saw them knowing what they were he bought them when they were translated to English they found that just about nothing in the Bible has changed over Centuries.
Originally posted by willietdog this is the stupidest thing ive ever heard of. Satan has corrupted your mind dude. first off god is strict and punishing but is allso just and merciful the old testiment does talk about that story you wrote about. God wanted there to be nothing left of the city and its people because they were evil and were not christian or in that time period jews. there are many stories of god killing people who dont follow him and sometimes thoughs who do because those people are sinners and are unworthy of him he may love us but we are still his creatons just like you must obey your father and if you dont he punnishes you god does too and sometimes that punishment is death. but remember when jesus died on the cross for us the rules changed. God is still the same but we are forgivin. for christians death is not a punnishment because we go to heaven no matter what we do here on earth as long as we beleive that Jesus died on the cross and ask him to come into our hearts and lead us through life. This is an awesome thing we are not worthy in the slightest just the fact that he did this for us is a sighn of the most awesome and forgiving god we could ask for. we are imperfect and he is not and because of that we should die. but instead we live. Jesus changed the rules, he said he was the son of god but in realality he was god he just tries to simplify stuff for us. anyway read your bible and go to church youll eventually understand.
A 13 year old talking in absolutes and telling me to read my Bible.
I took religion classes everyday for 15 years, and all it showed me was that the Bible is a flaw ridden pile of rubbish. Don't act like you know the answer to God. If God does exist, you can't begin to fathom him. I'll respect your belief in God, but you need to learn to respect my beliefs, too.
Look modjoe86 if you took religion classes for 15 years and you think the Bible is rubbish then either you were taking the wrong classes or there is something wrong with your thinking . Oh , by the way willietdog never claimed to understand God all he said was thatyou should read your Bible and go to Church and you will understand God BETTER not fully BETTER
Personaly I dont belive in this god stuff. Its all man made anyways. Its pagan myths etc.
But the thing with heaven is just a insain thing. Ok, lets say there is a heaven and hell. Heaven is were all the "good" and "loving" jesus and god fearing people go to. Ok? So there you sit, happy and full of joy that you are in heaven...ok now think a second. Since YOU are in heaven then there is a Hell right? Now how would that make you feel KNOWING that there are millions/billions of innocent people that really never did ANYTHING bad in there lives, loved there childeren, family etc are down in hell screaming and in pain for all time just because they dont belive?
Heaven is were all the "good" and "loving" jesus and god fearing people go to.
To put it simply.
Now how would that make you feel KNOWING...
Revelation 21:4
that there are millions/billions of innocent people that really never did ANYTHING bad in there lives
What would you consider bad (assuming you've done some wrong things in your life)? What would a perfect God consider bad? If you even hate your brother, it appears that you have commited a great sin. Leviticus 19:17, 1John 3:15
loved there childeren, family etc are down in hell screaming and in pain for all time just because they dont belive?
Apart from the biases surrounding our culture concerning mythology, I don't think there is a legitimate reason not to believe (other than the fact that you want to live an immoral life to get a high once in a while and don't want to feel guilty in doing so). It is my opinion that, given our current circumstances, there's no reason at all to be an atheist. The least someone should reasonably be is a theist of some form.
So if that assumption holds true, then the only reason someone wouldn't believe is because they are ignoring the implications for the existence of a Creator and just want to live life their own way. This doesn't mean their not intelligent, but rather... Psalm 14:1-3 (the word fool, I just read, comes from a Hebrew word which denotes someone who is "morally deficient"); John 12:25; Matthew 19:21-23 (the needle, I think, is a form of gateway back then - it's just called "needle" for some reason. At least that's what I've heard).
family etc are down in hell screaming and in pain for all time just because they dont belive?
If my assumption of the unbeliever's motives holds true (even if you or someone else acknowledges it in part), then not believing is rejecting a probable God. If accepting God results (sooner or later) in complete peace and joy, I think you can realize what rejecting him would entail.
I've said this to another person (may have been Razor): The furthest I could fall from Christianity is to become a Deist. I don't believe in a shortage of evidence to completely promote a lack of belief.
PS. Just to clarify something. When I said that other than the fact that you want to live an immoral life to get a high once in a while and don't want to feel guilty in doing so, I meant that we often want to live our lives our way. And for some reason this might make atheists stay away from religion because they somehow picture all Christians/theists as wasting away their lives in a dark corner of a room while flogging themselves for their own sins. If this is so, then I mean to tell you that this is not the case with more enlightened Christians. It might be for a while until you learn the truth. And that truth is to preach through the way you live (afterall, it's the best way to go about it). And God did not create us to live in misery. I would say that he created us to be with him and to grow in a relationship with him. If you wish to spend time with him by reading the Bible 24/7 and praying to him constantly, that can be very fulfilling, peaceful, and pleasant to a devout Christian - but that is not for everyone. We all fulfill our purposes in different ways.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
you might be a sinner. i'm not since i reject your idea of "sin".
Isnt it wonderful to know that he sacrificed his Son just to save us?
not really, it would have been better not to create evil in the first place. not hard at all for a perfect god, wouldn't ya say?
God is a perfect God.
nice, i guess that tsunami that killed over 100,000 people was all a part of god's "perfect plan". how just and perfect indeed.
Be aware that Lucifer is a deceitful snake.
don't you mean serpent?...aww jeeze...nevermind
If you were in Gods shoes and one of your creation wants to take over and play as God himself...what would you do?
1. since i'm perfect i would laugh and create reality in such a way that it would be impossible.
2. I could allow it to be possible, punish the being for acting on its nature then damn it to hell for all eternity.
If I were a perfect creator, I would choose 1. That way I'm not an evil tyrant dictator.
To fear God is the begginning of wisdom.
i disagree, I think it's wholly ignorant.
Originally posted by joelmeridith For all you people out therethere who think God is created sin and evilnesyuor wrong. God couldnot create sin because he is Holy and Righteous and creating sin would make him evil.
God could not create sin, therefore he's not all-powerfull. nice contradiction there.
God is also very merciful and loving ( john 3:16) and rewards those loyal to him(whole book of Job). Yes, I will respect your beleifs if you think there is no God ,but just a warning your wrong.
prove it.
If you dont beleive in Jesus as your saviour thhan you will go to hell(ya it's a real place).
no one's going to hell. It's not a real place.
And why not beleive you got nothing to lose, you beleive in jesus live your life serving him then spend eternity in Heaven.
Unless you have the wrong god. then you spend your entire live believing and serving jesus and end up in hell anyway. Like you're going to do since the real god is the purple and green bunny rabit and you're not giving your 10%.
And if you thing that the Bible s wrong get a clue if it's wrong why have so many historical facts in it been proved true.
please...name one.
And anither the Bible has not changed thru translation, like a couple decades back some shepherds found some scrolls ina cave by the dead sea( the Dead Sea Scrolls) and sold them at a market not knowing what they were,then a christian saw them knowing what they were he bought them when they were translated to English they found that just about nothing in the Bible has changed over Centuries.
what are you talking about? this is so innacurate is embarrasing that you posted it. much of the bible has been mistranslated according to theologians.
gotta get back to school bye
ok, plz come back when you reach 5th grade and learn how to construct a real argument...kthnx
you might be a sinner. i'm not since i reject your idea of "sin".
Romans 3: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Isnt it wonderful to know that he sacrificed his Son just to save us?
not really, it would have been better not to create evil in the first place. not hard at all for a perfect god, wouldn't ya say?
God did not create evil he gave man free will to do things on his own and not act like a robot. Man chose to rebel and let sin enter their lives.
God is a perfect God.
nice, i guess that tsunami that killed over 100,000 people was all a part of god's "perfect plan". how just and perfect indeed.
After Adam and Eve sinned inthe Graden of Eden sin entered the world , whiched caused natural disasters and other bad things to happen.
Be aware that Lucifer is a deceitful snake.
don't you mean serpent?...aww jeeze...nevermind
If you were in Gods shoes and one of your creation wants to take over and play as God himself...what would you do?
1. since i'm perfect i would laugh and create reality in such a way that it would be impossible.
2. I could allow it to be possible, punish the being for acting on its nature then damn it to hell for all eternity.
If I were a perfect creator, I would choose 1. That way I'm not an evil tyrant dictator.
God is not an evil tyrant , and he has already defeated Satan , and it was not just an act of nature that made satan sin he had a mind to think just like we do. He chose to do what he wanted and had to face the consequences.
To fear God is the begginning of wisdom.
i disagree, I think it's wholly ignorant.
Just shows how arrogant you realy are.
Originally posted by joelmeridith For all you people out therethere who think God is created sin and evilnesyuor wrong. God couldnot create sin because he is Holy and Righteous and creating sin would make him evil.
God could not create sin, therefore he's not all-powerfull. nice contradiction there.
God did not create evil he gave his creations the gift of free will and instead of following there maker they rebelled and did things there own way creating sin.
God is also very merciful and loving ( john 3:16) and rewards those loyal to him(whole book of Job). Yes, I will respect your beleifs if you think there is no God ,but just a warning your wrong.
prove it.
If you dont beleive in God why do you get so made when people say there is one?
If you dont beleive in Jesus as your saviour thhan you will go to hell(ya it's a real place).
no one's going to hell. It's not a real place.
Ya it is man.
And why not beleive you got nothing to lose, you beleive in jesus live your life serving him then spend eternity in Heaven.
Unless you have the wrong god. then you spend your entire live believing and serving jesus and end up in hell anyway. Like you're going to do since the real god is the purple and green bunny rabit and you're not giving your 10%.
Christianity is unlike other beleifs because our God is mercuful and doesnt use violence to solve evrything, when was the last time the Christians had a holy war or some thing like that. Christainity is different because are God, theGod is merciful and doesnt require anything but a beleiving heart to get into heaven.
And if you thing that the Bible s wrong get a clue if it's wrong why have so many historical facts in it been proved true.
please...name one.
For example in the Old Testament a race of people known as the Hittites are mentoined several times. but for centuries people questioned the Bible because no traces of them could be found, but in 1906 the Hittite capital was uncovered 90 miles east Ankara of turkey's capital. no archeological discovery has ever ctradicted the Bible.
And anither the Bible has not changed thru translation, like a couple decades back some shepherds found some scrolls ina cave by the dead sea( the Dead Sea Scrolls) and sold them at a market not knowing what they were,then a christian saw them knowing what they were he bought them when they were translated to English they found that just about nothing in the Bible has changed over Centuries.
what are you talking about? this is so innacurate is embarrasing that you posted it. much of the bible has been mistranslated according to theologians.
the only Bibles which have miss tranlations are the more recent ones that have omitted certain things like in the NIV it states "you have been redeemed" in the KJV it states " and you . thru the blood of Jesus ,have been redeemed". Things like that are only left out of newer tranlations, but the King James Version which was translated more than 1600 years after the Bible was completed matches the Aramaic , hebrew , and Greek manuscripts found.
gotta get back to school bye
ok, plz come back when you reach 5th grade and learn how to construct a real argument...kthnx
Im in 9th grade and am the best student in my class, don't get made just because a I can put up a better argument than you.
Romans 3: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
i reject that notion that your bible holds any truth in this matter. besides, anyone can post bible versus:
Psalm 137:9 Happy shall he be, who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock.
God did not create evil he gave man free will to do things on his own and not act like a robot. Man chose to rebel and let sin enter their lives.
if god is the creator and didn't create evil. how could man have chose evil?
Unless you'd like to explain who the other creator is who created evil.
You're contradicting yourself again.
After Adam and Eve sinned inthe Graden of Eden sin entered the world , whiched caused natural disasters and other bad things to happen.
natural disaster happen for various reasons. all of which have nothing to do with a snake and a naked couple in a garden.
If you were in Gods shoes and one of your creation wants to take over and play as God himself...what would you do?
If i was really so offended by someone trying to overthrow me, i would construct reality in such a way to make that impossible.
God is not an evil tyrant ,
allowing a tsunami to kills hundreds of thousands....all i can say is actions speak louder than words.
and he has already defeated Satan , and it was not just an act of nature that made satan sin he had a mind to think just like we do. He chose to do what he wanted and had to face the consequences.
sorry, i don't belive in devils and demons, talking serpents, cud-chewing rabbits, speaking donkeys or any of the other stuff that's in the bible.
Just shows how arrogant you realy are.
i critically examine thing things people tell me. I don't just accept them blindly. If using your brain makes you arrogant, then maybe you have a point
God did not create evil he gave his creations the gift of free will and instead of following there maker they rebelled and did things there own way creating sin.
Answer this question ---> if god is the creator and didn't create evil. how could man have chose evil? .
If you dont beleive in God why do you get so made when people say there is one?
freethinker gets mad when someone says god is real, therefore god exists. <---fallacy
i don't get mad, im actually in a very good mood today. i hope you are too.
Ya it is man.
prove it. (hint: proving it does not mean quoting a bible verse)
Christianity is unlike other beleifs because our God is mercuful and doesnt use violence to solve evrything, when was the last time the Christians had a holy war or some thing like that.
a slew of violence in the middle ages. this is not a winning argument for you.
Christainity is different because are God, the God is merciful and doesnt require anything but a beleiving heart to get into heaven.
You'll have to do better than naked assertions.
the only Bibles which have miss tranlations are the more recent ones that have omitted certain things like in the NIV it states "you have been redeemed" in the KJV it states " and you . thru the blood of Jesus ,have been redeemed". Things like that are only left out of newer tranlations, but the King James Version which was translated more than 1600 years after the Bible was completed matches the Aramaic , hebrew , and Greek manuscripts found.
Glad to see you agree there are mistranslations. There are also many mistranslations between the hebrew and greek text.
Im in 9th grade and am the best student in my class, don't get made just because a I can put up a better argument than you.
are you serious? all you did was tell us what you believe and make some contradictory claims. I would hardly call that putting up. Also, once again, I'm not mad...plz quit projecting your feelings on to me.
Originally posted by freethinker <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
you might be a sinner. i'm not since i reject your idea of "sin".
"Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong. "
It doesn't matter whether you reject his idea of sin or not. There are certain absolutes in life you just can't step around.
not really, it would have been better not to create evil in the first place. not hard at all for a perfect god, wouldn't ya say?
Who said he created it?
nice, i guess that tsunami that killed over 100,000 people was all a part of god's "perfect plan". how just and perfect indeed.
Like jumping out of a plane and hitting the ground like a rock and going *splat*. There are certain reactions to actions.
It says that God wishes for none to perish, and all to come to repentence.
So when you spit in God's face, and Satan comes a knocking on your door, there is no reason to expect protection, as so many seem to think they are deserved of.
don't you mean serpent?...aww jeeze...nevermind <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" />
Don't you mean dragon?
If you were in Gods shoes and one of your creation wants to take over and play as God himself...what would you do?
1. since i'm perfect i would laugh and create reality in such a way that it would be impossible.
2. I could allow it to be possible, punish the being for acting on its nature then damn it to hell for all eternity.
If I were a perfect creator, I would choose 1. That way I'm not an evil tyrant dictator.
Being a bit redunant aren't you? "Evil, tyrant, dictator."
Anyhow, if you were perfect. You could pick anything you wanted and not be an "evil, tyrant, dictator", because it would logically be the perfect thing to do.
To fear God is the begginning of wisdom.
i disagree, I think it's wholly ignorant.
Many people think many things: But in the end, it doesn't matter if it isn't truth.
Originally posted by joelmeridith For all you people out therethere who think God is created sin and evilnesyuor wrong. God couldnot create sin because he is Holy and Righteous and creating sin would make him evil.
God could not create sin, therefore he's not all-powerfull. nice contradiction there.
Not at all. You can not do something that is not who you are. IE: I'd have the ability to go out and massacre everyone I come across with a sawed off shotgun. But I can't, you know why? Because it's not in my personality. It's against who I am.
Then take that example, and fortify it by infinite: And you have the reason why God can not create sin.
God is also very merciful and loving ( john 3:16) and rewards those loyal to him(whole book of Job). Yes, I will respect your beleifs if you think there is no God ,but just a warning your wrong.
prove it.
Which do you want him to prove?
If you dont beleive in Jesus as your saviour thhan you will go to hell(ya it's a real place).
no one's going to hell. It's not a real place.
Prove it.
And why not beleive you got nothing to lose, you beleive in jesus live your life serving him then spend eternity in Heaven.
Unless you have the wrong god. then you spend your entire live believing and serving jesus and end up in hell anyway. Like you're going to do since the real god is the purple and green bunny rabit and you're not giving your 10%.
If there is no Jesus, then there would be no hell.
And if you thing that the Bible s wrong get a clue if it's wrong why have so many historical facts in it been proved true.
please...name one.
Jesus.
Many of the events named in the Bible have been proven Historically accurate.
I'd think if you'd want to at least pose a challenge, you'd warrant an almost impossible number.
And anither the Bible has not changed thru translation, like a couple decades back some shepherds found some scrolls ina cave by the dead sea( the Dead Sea Scrolls) and sold them at a market not knowing what they were,then a christian saw them knowing what they were he bought them when they were translated to English they found that just about nothing in the Bible has changed over Centuries.
what are you talking about? this is so innacurate is embarrasing that you posted it. much of the bible has been mistranslated according to theologians.
Not MUCH of the Bible. But a bit has.
gotta get back to school bye
ok, plz come back when you reach 5th grade and learn how to construct a real argument...kthnx
With statements like that, he's not the one appearing like he never crawled out of 5th grade.
Originally posted by freethinker
Originally posted by joelmeredith
Romans 3: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
i reject that notion that your bible holds any truth in this matter. besides, anyone can post bible versus:
Psalm 137:9 Happy shall he be, who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock.
What do you base your foundation of morals on?
And as for that verse: It was a Psalm of suffering. They were "Woe betiding" their situation, and stating the fact that they were in such hell, it would be better for infanticide to be committed than their children grow up in that situation.
Now that most likely was not meant literally by the author, just as Jeremiah's damning words against the unnamed man who brought good tidings to his parents about Jeremiah's birth.
God did not create evil he gave man free will to do things on his own and not act like a robot. Man chose to rebel and let sin enter their lives.
if god is the creator and didn't create evil. how could man have chose evil?
Unless you'd like to explain who the other creator is who created evil.
You're contradicting yourself again.
We all create evil. Everytime we trip, we fall, we create evil. It's free will. Satan created evil in himself when he rebelled. We create evil in ourselves. It's free will. Evil is what the antithesis of God is. Free will is the path of good or evil. God, or not God.
Following?
After Adam and Eve sinned inthe Graden of Eden sin entered the world , whiched caused natural disasters and other bad things to happen.
natural disaster happen for various reasons. all of which have nothing to do with a snake and a naked couple in a garden.
How do you know? Everything has that tap that starts the motion right? Positive or negative equal reaction?
If you were in Gods shoes and one of your creation wants to take over and play as God himself...what would you do?
If i was really so offended by someone trying to overthrow me, i would construct reality in such a way to make that impossible.
Then you remove free will from play, don't you?
God is not an evil tyrant ,
allowing a tsunami to kills hundreds of thousands....all i can say is actions speak louder than words.
What is that old saying in the Bible..."The wages of sin are death."
Don't expect God's protection while spitting in his face.
and he has already defeated Satan , and it was not just an act of nature that made satan sin he had a mind to think just like we do. He chose to do what he wanted and had to face the consequences.
sorry, i don't belive in devils and demons, talking serpents, cud-chewing rabbits, speaking donkeys or any of the other stuff that's in the bible.
Cud-chewing rabbits? Can't say I remember that Bible story.
Just shows how arrogant you realy are.
i critically examine thing things people tell me. I don't just accept them blindly. If using your brain makes you arrogant, then maybe you have a point
Well, I've never heard of an arrogant vegetable...
God did not create evil he gave his creations the gift of free will and instead of following there maker they rebelled and did things there own way creating sin.
Answer this question ---> if god is the creator and didn't create evil. how could man have chose evil? .
Because it's the opposite of God. In other words, rebelling against him=Evil.
If you dont beleive in God why do you get so made when people say there is one?
freethinker gets mad when someone says god is real, therefore god exists. <---fallacy
i don't get mad, im actually in a very good mood today. i hope you are too.
Ya it is man.
prove it. (hint: proving it does not mean quoting a bible verse)
Prove you love your mother.
Christianity is unlike other beleifs because our God is mercuful and doesnt use violence to solve evrything, when was the last time the Christians had a holy war or some thing like that.
a slew of violence in the middle ages. this is not a winning argument for you.
Papacy ordained Inquisitions/Crusades were hardly the will of God. The Papacy was a political power unlike any other, and even "pagans" posing to be "Christians" could win their way into the Papacy, or other high ranking Catholic positions, and wield insurmountable power.
Christainity is different because are God, the God is merciful and doesnt require anything but a beleiving heart to get into heaven.
You'll have to do better than naked assertions.
the only Bibles which have miss tranlations are the more recent ones that have omitted certain things like in the NIV it states "you have been redeemed" in the KJV it states " and you . thru the blood of Jesus ,have been redeemed". Things like that are only left out of newer tranlations, but the King James Version which was translated more than 1600 years after the Bible was completed matches the Aramaic , hebrew , and Greek manuscripts found.
Glad to see you agree there are mistranslations. There are also many mistranslations between the hebrew and greek text.
Im in 9th grade and am the best student in my class, don't get made just because a I can put up a better argument than you.
are you serious? all you did was tell us what you believe and make some contradictory claims. I would hardly call that putting up. Also, once again, I'm not mad...plz quit projecting your feelings on to me.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Originally posted by Copeland There is no god nor devil. There is only the purple bunny rabbit of tequila supply and the green bunny rabbit of tequila drinking. The rules of life are quite simple. Put out a carrot everynight for the purple bunny and he'll restock your supplies of tequila. When you open the tequila after drinking enough the green bunny will appear. It's very important from that point on that you let the green bunny do all the drinking or he'll be offended and when the purple bunny finds out you've offended the green bunny he'll no longer re-supply you with tequila. If you've never seen these bunnies it because you've sinned against them. The only way to make amends is to tithe 10% of all your liqour to the Prophet of the Bunnies. Contact me for salvation!Copeland Azura, Prophet of the Bunnies.
Holy crap. You know the sick thing about it all? The liquor store I go to sells rabbit foot keychains. They're killing those rabbits. And then rubbing it in in our faces.
Those rabbit's foot keychains are colored too. OMG OMG OMG!!!! I want my bunnies to come back.
you might be a sinner. i'm not since i reject your idea of "sin".
"Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong. " It doesn't matter whether you reject his idea of sin or not. There are certain absolutes in life you just can't step around.
actually, i was talking about what YOU define as sin and since your a christian we both know what that means. I think it's disingenuous how you completely left out the supernatural element in your definition...so plz stop trying to change the definition and try being a bit more honest (remember, in your faith being dishonest is still a sin).
anyway, here's what you probably meant to define sin as
from merriam-webster:
<i>sin:an offense against religious or moral law b : an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible (it's a sin to waste food) c : an often serious shortcoming : FAULT 2 a : transgression of the law of God b : a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God synonym see OFFENSE</i>
since you're a christian you derive your morals from the bible which i utterly reject.
not really, it would have been better not to create evil in the first place. not hard at all for a perfect god, wouldn't ya say?
Who said he created it?
those who maintain god is the creator of everything.
nice, i guess that tsunami that killed over 100,000 people was all a part of god's "perfect plan". how just and perfect indeed.
Like jumping out of a plane and hitting the ground like a rock and going *splat*. There are certain reactions to actions.
Did god create everything? If yes then you don't have to go any further, my point stands.
It says that God wishes for none to perish, and all to come to repentence.
Like I said above...actions speak louder than words.
So when you spit in God's face, and Satan comes a knocking on your door, there is no reason to expect protection, as so many seem to think they are deserved of.
i'm reaaaaly sure that the thousands of non-christian women and children who drowned in those tidalwaves deserved it. maybe next time they'll hit up the Big Mob Boss In The Sky for some protection and they'll be spared eh?
how barbaric. and you wonder why atheists find your faith abhorrent and completely unbelievable.
don't you mean serpent?...aww jeeze...nevermind Don't you mean dragon?
???
If you were in Gods shoes and one of your creation wants to take over and play as God himself...what would you do?
1. since i'm perfect i would laugh and create reality in such a way that it would be impossible. 2. I could allow it to be possible, punish the being for acting on its nature then damn it to hell for all eternity. If I were a perfect creator, I would choose 1. That way I'm not an evil tyrant dictator.
Being a bit redunant aren't you? "Evil, tyrant, dictator."
perhaps
Anyhow, if you were perfect. You could pick anything you wanted and not be an "evil, tyrant, dictator", because it would logically be the perfect thing to do.
and i can think of a few "non perfect" ways to do it better. (hint: my methods don't include creating people with a certain nature, allowing harm to come to them when they act on that nature, then damning them to hell for eternity.)
=======
Originally posted by joelmeridith
For all you people out therethere who think God is created sin and evilnesyuor wrong. God couldnot create sin because he is Holy and Righteous and creating sin would make him evil.
God could not create sin, therefore he's not all-powerfull. nice contradiction there.
Not at all. You can not do something that is not who you are. IE: I'd have the ability to go out and massacre everyone I come across with a sawed off shotgun. But I can't, you know why? Because it's not in my personality. It's against who I am. Then take that example, and fortify it by infinite: And you have the reason why God can not create sin.
god is said to be omnipotent creator, therefore by definition there is nothing he can't do. however, you are not omnipotent. therefore, your analogy is false.
God is also very merciful and loving ( john 3:16) and rewards those loyal to him(whole book of Job). Yes, I will respect your beleifs if you think there is no God ,but just a warning your wrong.
prove it.
Which do you want him to prove?
I'd be happy if he at least showed evidence for any claims he's making. right now all he's doing is preaching.
If you dont beleive in Jesus as your saviour thhan you will go to hell(ya it's a real place).
no one's going to hell. It's not a real place.
Prove it.
i was playing tit-for-tat to make a point with the post. i'll make that more obvious from now on.
regardless...I'll prove my claim when he proves his. besides, i don't have enough time today to disprove a universal negative.
And why not beleive you got nothing to lose, you beleive in jesus live your life serving him then spend eternity in Heaven.
Unless you have the wrong god. then you spend your entire live believing and serving jesus and end up in hell anyway. Like you're going to do since the real god is the purple and green bunny rabit and you're not giving your 10%.
If there is no Jesus, then there would be no hell.
if there is no alcohol then there are no purple and green bunnies. (notice: I'm playing tit-for-tat to prove a point.)
And if you thing that the Bible s wrong get a clue if it's wrong why have so many historical facts in it been proved true.
please...name one.
Jesus.
There's no proof or evidence that Jesus ever existed.
i reject that notion that your bible holds any truth in this matter.besides, anyone can post bible versus: Psalm 137:9Happy shall he be, who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock.
What do you base your foundation of morals on?
i base my morals on humanity and the avoidence of unnecessary harm.
God did not create evil he gave man free will to do things on his own and not act like a robot. Man chose to rebel and let sin enter their lives.
if god is the creator and didn't create evil. how could man have chose evil?
Unless you'd like to explain who the other creator is who created evil. You're contradicting yourself again.
We all create evil. Everytime we trip, we fall, we create evil. It's free will. Satan created evil in himself when he rebelled. We create evil in ourselves. It's free will. Evil is what the antithesis of God is. Free will is the path of good or evil. God, or not God. Following?
yea only it doesn't make any sense. Did god create the nature of our universe alone? Did he have someone there to help him? It seems you're claiming that satan and people have equal creation powers as god. so confusing and contradictory.
After Adam and Eve sinned inthe Graden of Eden sin entered the world , whiched caused natural disasters and other bad things to happen.
natural disaster happen for various reasons. all of which have nothing to do with a snake and a naked couple in a garden.
How do you know? Everything has that tap that starts the motion right? Positive or negative equal reaction?
We know why hurricanes, tsunamis and tornadoes happen. you can thank science for that one.
this is really a ridiculous point.
If you were in Gods shoes and one of your creation wants to take over and play as God himself...what would you do?
If i was really so offended by someone trying to overthrow me, i would construct reality in such a way to make that impossible.
Then you remove free will from play, don't you?
free will is bunk anyway. if you agree that god is an omniscient/omnipotent creator then freewill cannot exist. for freewill to exist there would have to be a point of uncertainty...there's no uncertainty with an omniscient creator.
but, in the real world there's no need for terms like freewill...just people making everyday choices (i can prove that happens)
God is not an evil tyrant ,
allowing a tsunami to kills hundreds of thousands....all i can say is actions speak louder than words. What is that old saying in the Bible..."The wages of sin are death."
Don't expect God's protection while spitting in his face.
right, i'll tell litte Lakia who was ripped from her mothers arms when the tidal wave hit to quit spitting in god's face. Next time maybe she'll have the foresite to somehow tune in to Western media to learn how her and her entire family is worshipping the wrong god. Then maybe she'll afford the Big Mob Boss In The Sky's protection right?
I'm sure she'll have lots of time to think about that as she's inhaling saltwater and slowly suffocating to death. If she doesn't get a chance to do it as she's dying, maybe she can use the time when she's burning in hell for eternity.
absolutley sickining the way some people think.
and he has already defeated Satan , and it was not just an act of nature that made satan sin he had a mind to think just like we do. He chose to do what he wanted and had to face the consequences.
sorry, i don't belive in devils and demons, talking serpents, cud-chewing rabbits, speaking donkeys or any of the other stuff that's in the bible.
Cud-chewing rabbits? Can't say I remember that Bible story.
look it up, it's not hard to find. (think leviticus)
Just shows how arrogant you realy are.
i critically examine thing things people tell me. I don't just accept them blindly. If using your brain makes you arrogant, then maybe you have a point
Well, I've never heard of an arrogant vegetable...
whatever THAT means.
God did not create evil he gave his creations the gift of free will and instead of following there maker they rebelled and did things there own way creating sin.
Answer this question ---> if god is the creator and didn't create evil. how could man have chose evil? .
Because it's the opposite of God. In other words, rebelling against him=Evil.
nice..ready to answer the question now?
my question : if god is the creator and didn't create evil. how could man have chose evil? your answer : because it's the opposite of god.
your answer makes no sense.
Ya it is man.
prove it. (hint: proving it does not mean quoting a bible verse)
Prove you love your mother.
sure, that's an easy one. I call her a couple times a week to check on her. we go out to eat on occasions. i tell her i love her. i send her mothers day cards and flowers. anyone looking at that could reasonably conclude that i love my mother.
(note: i don't drown her in tidal waves for that would be unloving)
Christianity is unlike other beleifs because our God is mercuful and doesnt use violence to solve evrything, when was the last time the Christians had a holy war or some thing like that.
a slew of violence in the middle ages. this is not a winning argument for you.
Papacy ordained Inquisitions/Crusades were hardly the will of God.
Originally posted by freethinker <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
actually, i was talking about what YOU define as sin and since your a christian we both know what that means. I think it's disingenuous how you completely left out the supernatural element in your definition...so plz stop trying to change the definition and try being a bit more honest (remember, in your faith being dishonest is still a sin).
anyway, here's what you probably meant to define sin as
from merriam-webster:
<i>sin:an offense against religious or moral law b : an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible (it's a sin to waste food) c : an often serious shortcoming : FAULT 2 a : transgression of the law of God b : a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God synonym see OFFENSE</i>
since you're a christian you derive your morals from the bible which i utterly reject.
I was perfectly honest. Now you're just being asinine.
You said you rejected the idea of sin(or his view of sin, but we'll go onto the relevance either way), and as I proved, sin is a very universal thing.
With the second definition having the same meaning as the first, but they both get their laws from differing sources.
But hey...If you think that murder, rape, and stealing is A-ok, then I'll agree that you'd find no meaning with the word "sin"(or anything dealing with religiously shunned "no no"s"), but although I think you're misguided, I do hope you at least have a moral compass.
not really, it would have been better not to create evil in the first place. not hard at all for a perfect god, wouldn't ya say?
Who said he created it?
those who maintain god is the creator of everything.
nice, i guess that tsunami that killed over 100,000 people was all a part of god's "perfect plan". how just and perfect indeed.
Like jumping out of a plane and hitting the ground like a rock and going *splat*. There are certain reactions to actions.
Did god create everything? If yes then you don't have to go any further, my point stands.
If you want to be so vague and asinine: Then everytime something horrible happends, everytime someone is murdered, raped, everytime a poor child is molested; we're all at fault because we all had an impact on the world around us, every little bit, that nudged each action taking place at each time. Everyone filling the puzzle to the ultimate picture.
And with a mindset like that: Any sins, evils, and destruction your fathers, no matter how many generations it goes back, you're just as guilty.
It says that God wishes for none to perish, and all to come to repentence.
Like I said above...actions speak louder than words.
So when you spit in God's face, and Satan comes a knocking on your door, there is no reason to expect protection, as so many seem to think they are deserved of.
i'm reaaaaly sure that the thousands of non-christian women and children who drowned in those tidalwaves deserved it. maybe next time they'll hit up the Big Mob Boss In The Sky for some protection and they'll be spared eh?
how barbaric. and you wonder why atheists find your faith abhorrent and completely unbelievable. <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" />
What constitutes someone being deserved of death?
And frankly, I'm not sure why atheist's would blame Christianity for Satan's handiwork...Oh wait. I get it, scapegoat, right? I mean blaming Satan wouldn't be the politically correct thing to do, it goes against their lil Crusade against all things religious.
So lets blame God...brilliant, brilliant. Lets blame God for everything, like everyone has had an affinity to do for thousands of years. You screw up, and you then blame God. Never thinking, "hey...Maybe i'm at wrong."
*applaud* Brilliant...
don't you mean serpent?...aww jeeze...nevermind Don't you mean dragon?
???
If you were in Gods shoes and one of your creation wants to take over and play as God himself...what would you do?
1. since i'm perfect i would laugh and create reality in such a way that it would be impossible. 2. I could allow it to be possible, punish the being for acting on its nature then damn it to hell for all eternity. If I were a perfect creator, I would choose 1. That way I'm not an evil tyrant dictator.
Being a bit redunant aren't you? "Evil, tyrant, dictator."
perhaps
Anyhow, if you were perfect. You could pick anything you wanted and not be an "evil, tyrant, dictator", because it would logically be the perfect thing to do.
and i can think of a few "non perfect" ways to do it better. (hint: my methods don't include creating people with a certain nature, allowing harm to come to them when they act on that nature, then damning them to hell for eternity.)
1. If it's non perfect, then it can't be better than perfection. Anyhow, you don't even know how the universe was created, or why: You're hardly in a situation to be passing judgement onto an omnipotent being.
2. He could either create him with free will(Which I'm assuming what you mean by "certain nature"), or he could create him as a robot, then there would be no point to existence.
Satan wasn't created with an evil nature, which you seem to be so stuck on: In fact it said he was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him.
Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
And who said he was going to be in hell for eternity?
=======
god is said to be omnipotent creator, therefore by definition there is nothing he can't do. however, you are not omnipotent. therefore, your analogy is false.
Are you purposefully being obtuse? I was giving an illustration of nature. The whole fact that he is omnipotent, and perfect, even goes to solidify my example further. The whole fact that he is completely perfect, the pinnacle of all that is good, makes it impossible for him to be sin. He could if he wanted, but he can't...It's really not all that abstract.
Just think about it, it really isn't that deep.
God is also very merciful and loving ( john 3:16) and rewards those loyal to him(whole book of Job). Yes, I will respect your beleifs if you think there is no God ,but just a warning your wrong.
prove it.
Which do you want him to prove?
I'd be happy if he at least showed evidence for any claims he's making. right now all he's doing is preaching.
If you dont beleive in Jesus as your saviour thhan you will go to hell(ya it's a real place).
no one's going to hell. It's not a real place.
Prove it.
i was playing tit-for-tat to make a point with the post. i'll make that more obvious from now on.
regardless...I'll prove my claim when he proves his. besides, i don't have enough time today to disprove a universal negative.
And why not beleive you got nothing to lose, you beleive in jesus live your life serving him then spend eternity in Heaven.
Unless you have the wrong god. then you spend your entire live believing and serving jesus and end up in hell anyway. Like you're going to do since the real god is the purple and green bunny rabit and you're not giving your 10%.
If there is no Jesus, then there would be no hell.
if there is no alcohol then there are no purple and green bunnies. (notice: I'm playing tit-for-tat to prove a point.)
And if you thing that the Bible s wrong get a clue if it's wrong why have so many historical facts in it been proved true.
please...name one.
Jesus.
There's no proof or evidence that Jesus ever existed.
If that's your belief: You must have a hard time swallowing the existence of any historical figures, places, or people.
i reject that notion that your bible holds any truth in this matter.besides, anyone can post bible versus: Psalm 137:9Happy shall he be, who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock.
What do you base your foundation of morals on?
i base my morals on humanity and the avoidence of unnecessary harm.
You base your morals on humanity? How vague can you be. And the avoidance of unnecessary harm?
If a man is sexually aroused, and rapes a woman, in that mans eye he did necessary harm, does that mean he's right? And if he isn't, who's to say he's wrong?
God did not create evil he gave man free will to do things on his own and not act like a robot. Man chose to rebel and let sin enter their lives.
if god is the creator and didn't create evil. how could man have chose evil?
Unless you'd like to explain who the other creator is who created evil. You're contradicting yourself again.
We all create evil. Everytime we trip, we fall, we create evil. It's free will. Satan created evil in himself when he rebelled. We create evil in ourselves. It's free will. Evil is what the antithesis of God is. Free will is the path of good or evil. God, or not God. Following?
yea only it doesn't make any sense. Did god create the nature of our universe alone? Did he have someone there to help him? It seems you're claiming that satan and people have equal creation powers as god. so confusing and contradictory.
Not confusing at all. That's just what free will is. It's simple enough.
After Adam and Eve sinned inthe Graden of Eden sin entered the world , whiched caused natural disasters and other bad things to happen.
natural disaster happen for various reasons. all of which have nothing to do with a snake and a naked couple in a garden.
How do you know? Everything has that tap that starts the motion right? Positive or negative equal reaction?
We know why hurricanes, tsunamis and tornadoes happen. you can thank science for that one.
this is really a ridiculous point.
Not at all. Hurricanes, tsunamis, tornadeos, they happen because of an imperfect earth.
Lets give an example:
Pre Fall of Man. Perfect earth, perfect peoples, blah blah.
Man falls...throws nature all into chaos. Water warms up, ocean shelves collapse, you got tsunamis, hurricanes, all that bad stuff.
Reason why it's there? Cause some idiot ate the wrong fruit. It was the tap that set everything in motion. Now you can disbelieve that story all you want. But it's proof that everything, even something seen as small, can change the world.
If you were in Gods shoes and one of your creation wants to take over and play as God himself...what would you do?
If i was really so offended by someone trying to overthrow me, i would construct reality in such a way to make that impossible.
Then you remove free will from play, don't you?
free will is bunk anyway. if you agree that god is an omniscient/omnipotent creator then freewill cannot exist. for freewill to exist there would have to be a point of uncertainty...there's no uncertainty with an omniscient creator.
but, in the real world there's no need for terms like freewill...just people making everyday choices (i can prove that happens)
You're the one I argued this before, and you stated even without a God, there would be no free will, right?
If so, I see no point in rebutting against a stone.
God is not an evil tyrant ,
allowing a tsunami to kills hundreds of thousands....all i can say is actions speak louder than words. What is that old saying in the Bible..."The wages of sin are death."
Don't expect God's protection while spitting in his face.
right, i'll tell litte Lakia who was ripped from her mothers arms when the tidal wave hit to quit spitting in god's face. Next time maybe she'll have the foresite to somehow tune in to Western media to learn how her and her entire family is worshipping the wrong god. Then maybe she'll afford the Big Mob Boss In The Sky's protection right?
I'm sure she'll have lots of time to think about that as she's inhaling saltwater and slowly suffocating to death. If she doesn't get a chance to do it as she's dying, maybe she can use the time when she's burning in hell for eternity.
absolutley sickining the way some people think.
1. Who said she's burning in hell for eternity? Who said she'll burn in hell even for one minute? You're just making assumptions here to try to further your case, when they have no backing at all.
2. It's the parents duty to protect the child, right?
and he has already defeated Satan , and it was not just an act of nature that made satan sin he had a mind to think just like we do. He chose to do what he wanted and had to face the consequences.
sorry, i don't belive in devils and demons, talking serpents, cud-chewing rabbits, speaking donkeys or any of the other stuff that's in the bible.
Cud-chewing rabbits? Can't say I remember that Bible story.
look it up, it's not hard to find. (think leviticus)
Just shows how arrogant you realy are.
i critically examine thing things people tell me. I don't just accept them blindly. If using your brain makes you arrogant, then maybe you have a point
Well, I've never heard of an arrogant vegetable...
whatever THAT means.
A vegetable...You know, someone that's brain dead, literally?
God did not create evil he gave his creations the gift of free will and instead of following there maker they rebelled and did things there own way creating sin.
Answer this question ---> if god is the creator and didn't create evil. how could man have chose evil? .
Because it's the opposite of God. In other words, rebelling against him=Evil.
nice..ready to answer the question now?
my question : if god is the creator and didn't create evil. how could man have chose evil? your answer : because it's the opposite of god.
your answer makes no sense.
It makes perfect sense. Everything is in an equilibrium. Good to evil, love to hate, anger to peace, etc.
Things that are considered evil in the Bible: Why are they evil? Because it's against God.
God tells them not to do something, they do it, they're rebelling against God=Evil.
What is so hard to understand about this? Since God is what is good, because he is perfect and omnipotent, what is against his will, would be evil. Rebellion against God, in whatever form, happends because of free will, and hence, the rebellion becomes evil.
Satan is considered evil: Why? Because everything he does he knows is against the will of God.
Ya it is man.
prove it. (hint: proving it does not mean quoting a bible verse)
Prove you love your mother.
sure, that's an easy one. I call her a couple times a week to check on her. we go out to eat on occasions. i tell her i love her. i send her mothers day cards and flowers. anyone looking at that could reasonably conclude that i love my mother.
(note: i don't drown her in tidal waves for that would be unloving)
Words, material niceties, and showing attention proves your love? I've known quite a few people that do exactly that, and have a bitter resentment and dislike for the person, doing it for a type of tradition, and etiquette. And I know the exact opposite of people who say they truely love the person, and probably do, but don't have the time to do that.
Your idea of love is arbitrary, and words can be filled full of lies. That isn't proof, that's you just attempting to show proof. It's completely arbitrary. If you ran out of money, moved away to another state, and had no phone: Would that mean you no longer love your mother?
Christianity is unlike other beleifs because our God is mercuful and doesnt use violence to solve evrything, when was the last time the Christians had a holy war or some thing like that.
a slew of violence in the middle ages. this is not a winning argument for you.
Papacy ordained Inquisitions/Crusades were hardly the will of God.
with evil like that why are crusades so outlandish?
again, this is not a winning argument for you.
No...
2 Kings 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
Elijah did.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
The simple answer is no person was ever intended for Hell. It was created for the fallen angels. Of which there are no more than a few thousand. I could give you verse after verse, but I have a feeling this in not what you yet seek. No person was ever meant for Hell. So all people start out going to Heaven. As children we are bound to heaven and if when children pass on they go to heaven. The biblical proof of this is in the old testament.
As far as I know only 1 man in all of recorded history has beat death. He said a lot of things and I tend to believe them all. There is no other name, given among men, whereby you must be saved. Saved? You say? I take this matter of Christ to be history, it occured, and you can believe it. Much like you believe in Lincoln, the siege of Troy, or the sacking of Rome. Current people did not see these things yet all but the most convluted subscribe to them. I subscribe to the record that God gave of his Son. I can find no harm in doing so. I can only find harm in not doing so. All who read these word I type in this little box will one day find mortality. It will hit when you do not expect it, or you may have time to plan for it.
So are you going to Hell? Right now, no. If you die in a state that has you at odds with God, then yes. This is not what I say but what the book says. You know that 3500 year old book? The bible. If you want to hear what other people, people who have not beat death, then by all means read the Quran or another text. Hang your hat upon whatever you like. It is your free will.
But do know that if what is written in the Bible ends up being correct. Then you can only lose if you did not believe it. And by it I mean Christ - for that is what the Bible culminates and builds up to. Christ died for the sins of mankind and if you read the book of Hebrews(in the bible) they all stand forgiven. So what, if not sin, sends a person to Hell? Simple. They do not believe on the name of the Son of God.
This is not complicated and it is not hard. It is a mental decision to believe. Do it and I'll see you in eternity and we can hobnob on high. Do it not, and your fate is in your own hands.
Originally posted by freethinker actually, i was talking about what YOU define as sin and since your a christian we both know what that means. I think it's disingenuous how you completely left out the supernatural element in your definition...so plz stop trying to change the definition and try being a bit more honest (remember, in your faith being dishonest is still a sin). anyway, here's what you probably meant to define sin as from merriam-webster: <i>sin:an offense against religious or moral law b : an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible (it's a sin to waste food) c : an often serious shortcoming : FAULT2 a : transgression of the law of God b : a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from Godsynonym see OFFENSE</i> since you're a christian you derive your morals from the bible which i utterly reject.
I was perfectly honest. Now you're just being asinine.
You said you rejected the idea of sin(or his view of sin, but we'll go onto the relevance either way), and as I proved, sin is a very universal thing.
nope. changing the definition of a word to make yourself look right is dishonest. this is exactly what you did. look up "sin" in multiple dictionaries, you'll see I'm right. (notice how an overwhelming majory include the supernatural)
But hey...If you think that murder, rape, and stealing is A-ok, then I'll agree that you'd find no meaning with the word "sin"(or anything dealing with religiously shunned "no no"s"), but although I think you're misguided, I do hope you at least have a moral compass.
well, as i said before i base my morality on humanity. so much for your murder, rape, stealing and baby-eating strawman.
not really, it would have been better not to create evil in the first place. not hard at all for a perfect god, wouldn't ya say? Who said he created it?
those who maintain god is the creator of everything.
nice, i guess that tsunami that killed over 100,000 people was all a part of god's "perfect plan". how just and perfect indeed.
Like jumping out of a plane and hitting the ground like a rock and going *splat*. There are certain reactions to actions.
Did god create everything? If yes then you don't have to go any further, my point stands.
If you want to be so vague and asinine: Then everytime something horrible happends, everytime someone is murdered, raped, everytime a poor child is molested; we're all at fault because we all had an impact on the world around us, every little bit, that nudged each action taking place at each time. Everyone filling the puzzle to the ultimate picture. And with a mindset like that: Any sins, evils, and destruction your fathers, no matter how many generations it goes back, you're just as guilty.
false analogy. repeat after me: people are not omnisicent like said creator.
so much for my vague and asinine baby-eating.
So, did god create everything?
It says that God wishes for none to perish, and all to come to repentence.
Like I said above...actions speak louder than words.
So when you spit in God's face, and Satan comes a knocking on your door, there is no reason to expect protection, as so many seem to think they are deserved of.
i'm reaaaaly sure that the thousands of non-christian women and children who drowned in those tidalwaves deserved it. maybe next time they'll hit up the Big Mob Boss In The Sky for some protection and they'll be spared eh? how barbaric. and you wonder why atheists find your faith abhorrent and completely unbelievable.
What constitutes someone being deserved of death?
depends on who you ask... in the most ideal sense i think that if someone takes another life then they don't deserve to have theirs. but (thankfully) we have a judge/jury system for that so you and i don't decide.
And frankly, I'm not sure why atheist's ........................, "hey...Maybe i'm at wrong." *applaud* Brilliant...
actually, i'm playing devils advocate. i don't believe in a god or devils.... i'm simply using logic to shread your claims. way to miss the point.
(fyi: atheist means lack of belief in a gods)
If you were in Gods shoes and one of your creation wants to take over and play as God himself...what would you do?
1. since i'm perfect i would laugh and create reality in such a way that it would be impossible.2. I could allow it to be possible, punish the being for acting on its nature then damn it to hell for all eternity. If I were a perfect creator, I would choose 1. That way I'm not an evil tyrant dictator.
Being a bit redunant aren't you? "Evil, tyrant, dictator."
perhaps
Anyhow, if you were perfect. You could pick anything you wanted and not be an "evil, tyrant, dictator", because it would logically be the perfect thing to do.
and i can think of a few "non perfect" ways to do it better. (hint: my methods don't include creating people with a certain nature, allowing harm to come to them when they act on that nature, then damning them to hell for eternity.)
1. If it's non perfect, then it can't be better than perfection. Anyhow, you don't even know how the universe was created, or why: You're hardly in a situation to be passing judgement onto an omnipotent being.
i'm "passing judgement" on the idea that god is both omnipotent/omniscient and just. I've clearly shown he's not. of course i don't know how it all came to be...no one does and either do you...you just have a belief that tells you goddidit.
2. He could either create him with free will(Which I'm assuming what you mean by "certain nature"), or he could create him as a robot, then there would be no point to existence.
if said creator is real and omnisscient he would have constructed reality and know all future outcomes (he'd know it because he's omniscient).
in other words... back when the earth was forming, he'd know that this morning i would choose to eat pancakes instead of waffles. i chose pancakes, to choose waffles would go against god's knowledge and render him not omniscient.
welcome to the predeterminded world of the all-knowing.
Satan wasn't created with an evil nature,
Ok then, where did evil come from then?
which you seem to be so stuck on: In fact it said he was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him.
this contradicts your previous statment "satan wasn't created with an evil nature"....if he didn't have an evil nature how in the world could "iniquity be found in him"?? wow, are you thinking through these claims before you write them?
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god is said to be omnipotent creator, therefore by definition there is nothing he can't do. however, you are not omnipotent. therefore, your analogy is false.
Are you purposefully being obtuse? I was giving an illustration of nature.
if you want to make an analogy then please make it actually analogous to the discussion. i'm not being obtuse i'm simply pointing out flaws in your reasoning. now, do you have an analogy that fits better? because that one sucked.
The whole fact that he is omnipotent, and perfect, even goes to solidify my example further. The whole fact that he is completely perfect, the pinnacle of all that is good, makes it impossible for him to be sin. He could if he wanted, but he can't.
he could but he can't. I'll flip a coin to see if i understand...the coin fell on both heads and tails. I wish i could see my keyboard but the light is both on and off. I need some air so I'll go outside yet i'm still inside.
do you now see the problem of absolute claims? if you give god absolute attributes they must stay absolute...you can't say that god is omnipotent then say he can't do something because then you're contradicting yourself.
i hope it's clear now.
It's really not all that abstract. Just think about it, it really isn't that deep.
i thought about it and it made absolutley no sense whatsoever.
god is either omniscient and knows all or he's not. god is either omnipotent and is all powerfull or he's not..
again, see the problem with absolute claims? don't try to pass god off as omnipotent then tell me he can't do something...don't try to pass god off as omniscient then tell me he allows for freewill to occur...don't make absolute claims then say there's an exception because then your claim is no longer absolute.
see?
There's no proof or evidence that Jesus ever existed.
If that's your belief: You must have a hard time swallowing the existence of any historical figures, places, or people.
not at all. most historical figures aren't said to have supernatural powers or do anything outrageous like rise from the dead. also, we have letters, and documented evidence of many historical figures.
What do you base your foundation of morals on?
i base my morals on humanity and the avoidence of unnecessary harm.
[snip]
If a man is sexually aroused, and rapes a woman, in that mans eye he did necessary harm, does that mean he's right?
it's wrong to rape because it causes unnecessary harm to the victim and violates her rights. i don't need an Invisible Sky Boss to tell me that.
And if he isn't, who's to say he's wrong?
i say he's wrong because that's what i base my morality on. i base my morality on that because i know living things seek to avoid harm. this isn't a very hard concept to understand.
God did not create evil he gave man free will to do things on his own and not act like a robot. Man chose to rebel and let sin enter their lives.
if god is the creator and didn't create evil. how could man have chose evil? Unless you'd like to explain who the other creator is who created evil.You're contradicting yourself again.
We all create evil. Everytime we trip, we fall, we create evil. It's free will. Satan created evil in himself when he rebelled.We create evil in ourselves. It's free will. Evil is what the antithesis of God is. Free will is the path of good or evil. God, or not God.Following?
yea only it doesn't make any sense. Did god create the nature of our universe alone? Did he have someone there to help him? It seems you're claiming that satan and people have equal creation powers as god. so confusing and contradictory.
Not confusing at all. That's just what free will is. It's simple enough.
sorry, it's confusing to those of us who actually think through these things. I'm sure it's easy for those who accustom to believing what their told to believe...after all, what isn't why you take it on faith?
After Adam and Eve sinned inthe Graden of Eden sin entered the world , whiched caused natural disasters and other bad things to happen.
natural disaster happen for various reasons. all of which have nothing to do with a snake and a naked couple in a garden.
How do you know? Everything has that tap that starts the motion right? Positive or negative equal reaction?
We know why hurricanes, tsunamis and tornadoes happen. you can thank science for that one. this is really a ridiculous point.
Not at all. Hurricanes, tsunamis, tornadeos, they happen because of an imperfect earth.
Lets give an example: Pre Fall of Man. Perfect earth, perfect peoples, blah blah. Man falls...throws nature all into chaos. Water warms up, ocean shelves collapse, you got tsunamis, hurricanes, all that bad stuff. Reason why it's there? Cause some idiot ate the wrong fruit. It was the tap that set everything in motion. Now you can disbelieve that story all you want. But it's proof that everything, even something seen as small, can change the world.
^ this is all naked assertions. non provable..its just an expression of your belief.
Here's why they really happen (no fruit or falling men necessary and it doesn't require my belief. it's true whether i choose to believe it or not.)
If you were in Gods shoes and one of your creation wants to take over and play as God himself...what would you do?
If i was really so offended by someone trying to overthrow me, i would construct reality in such a way to make that impossible.
Then you remove free will from play, don't you?
freewill is naturally removed since I'm endowed with the gift of omniscience. I know all outcomes right now. I know how every choice that everyone is going to make plays out and it must happen exactley that way. If there were any point of uncertainty (i.e., you chose to turn left after i knew you would turn right) then that would prove me NOT omniscient.
see now?
If so, I see no point in rebutting against a stone.
if it appears im a stone then its because what i'm saying is factually correct. if you disagree with it feel free to refute my claims anytime. so far you're only preaching what you believe which frankly i don't find very interesting.
God is not an evil tyrant ,
allowing a tsunami to kills hundreds of thousands....all i can say is actions speak louder than words.What is that old saying in the Bible..."The wages of sin are death." Don't expect God's protection while spitting in his face.
right, i'll tell litte Lakia who was ripped from her mothers arms when the tidal wave hit to quit spitting in god's face. Next time maybe she'll have the foresite to somehow tune in to Western media to learn how her and her entire family is worshipping the wrong god. Then maybe she'll afford the Big Mob Boss In The Sky's protection right? I'm sure she'll have lots of time to think about that as she's inhaling saltwater and slowly suffocating to death. If she doesn't get a chance to do it as she's dying, maybe she can use the time when she's burning in hell for eternity. absolutley sickining the way some people think.
1. Who said she's burning in hell for eternity? Who said she'll burn in hell even for one minute? You're just making assumptions here to try to further your case, when they have no backing at all.
dunno, i thought that was the consequence for not believing in jesus. you're not going to try and say that you can get into heaven w/out accepting jesus are you?
2. It's the parents duty to protect the child, right?
i agree. however this is hard to do when you have a 20' wall of water unexpectantly hit you from out of nowhere.
what a horrible horrible act of evil to have the ability to stop something as horrific as what happened yet refuse to do so.
that is what I consider evil.
I've known quite a few people that do exactly that, and have a bitter resentment and dislike for the person, doing it for a type of tradition, and etiquette. And I know the exact opposite of people who say they truely love the person, and probably do, but don't have the time to do that.
how do you know what they truly feel? you only know what people feel by what they say and by their actions.
Your idea of love is arbitrary,
lol. like it could be anything else.
Christianity is unlike other beleifs because our God is mercuful and doesnt use violence to solve evrything, when was the last time the Christians had a holy war or some thing like that.
a slew of violence in the middle ages. this is not a winning argument for you.
Papacy ordained Inquisitions/Crusades were hardly the will of God.
now you claim to know the will of god? did you know god sent bears to rip children apart because they called one of his beloved prophets "baldy". with evil like that why are crusades so outlandish? again, this is not a winning argument for you.
No... 2 Kings 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. Elijah did.
you're wrong. read it again (pay especially close attention to the part i bolded). Then think through your conclusion (hint: where does elijah get his powers). ===========
This thing with you posting your beliefs and me pointing out the contradictions has been amusing but now it's getting sorta tedious.
Psalm 137:9 Happy shall he be, who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock.
It is my assumption that you are using this verse out of its historical context to promote ill feelings toward Scripture and those who follow God or because you wish to look no further than face value. If I'm incorrect then I apologize. But whether or not the psalmist here was a man of God, you also have to look at what the times were like.
Zedekiah (originally Mattaniah - renamed by Nebachudnezzar) was one of the more worse kings that Jerusalem had had. To paraphrase scripture, he did what was evil in God's sight. He also rebelled against Babylon by joining with the Egyptians as he was instructed not to do. So Nebachudnezzar sent some of his generals to siege Jerusalem. The siege lasted for quite a while. The way Nebachudnezzar won Jerusalem through his generals was by weakening it with a famine. In the end perseverence payed off for him. Famines can be very ugly events. In one passage of scripture I remember a woman who eats her own child because of a famine.
At any rate, the Babylonians set fire to the temple which was a further slap in the face to the people living during Zedekiah's reign. No doubt the Jews must have been both devastated and ticked off at this point. Zedekiah himself was captured upon escaping the siege and his sons (his children mind you) and friends were ordered killed by Nebachudnezzar. Babylon, though, took most of the Jews captives rather than killing them. Some say that Babylon exploited the non-Babylonian captives/inhabitants to be used for the benefit of the ruling class. This, coupled with Nebachudnezzar's outrage at Zedekiah, would seem to point to a situation of slavery in which the Jews were placed. This would be one good reason, from a practical standpoint to them, not to kill off the Jews and their children.
Anyway, after this all, a person (I assume a captive currently in Babylon because of verse 1) sings a song of lament after seeing this complete desolation. Do you not think that some Jewish children had died in the famine as well? That in their minds would be, given the rule for an eye for an eye, probable cause to kill the Babylonian children as well. I think that the destruction of Babylon had already been prophesied about beforehand. If the psalmist knew about this, then he could have been wishing it to come quickly now - for them to defeat their enemies and to repay the deeds of Babylon. However, I'm not arguing for the Jewish people under Zedekiah's reign. I'm just presenting their probable perspective. Afterall, God was angry with them and allowed their destruction to come because his people (at least one of them and the greatest of them all - the king) had turned away from him. When a leader of a group practices sin, the group who follows usually follows in sin.
prove it. (hint: proving it does not mean quoting a bible verse)
Indeed so. In science (any field of science that I know of) you cannot prove the validity of something by its own testimony.
On a side note, I'll give one possible example why I think having faith in God is important.
The words you see me write are arbitrary symbols for my own thoughts and ideas. When I write these words, you should believe that I exist because of the words (symbols/objects) you see me creating through the use of the internet. The words themselves are meaningless unless meaning has been given to them (which constitutes a language). I create the words (symbols/objects) and they portray a message to you of 1. my existence and 2. my power to create such symbols and objects (by use of a keyboard). Of themselves they are only objects - a foreigner or one not taught a language would not know what the heck all of these characters or objects are or even if they are of any significance.
When God spoke in Genesis I believe his words were the planets and the stars. They were objects just like my words are to you. Afterall, who says that God created the universe by speaking English, French, Hebrew, Korean or whatever other language quite possibly not in existence during that time? His words convey a similar message that mine do; that he has the power to create them and that he exists because we see his words in existence to this day when he had at once written them down in the heavens long ago.
God's words, I think, are more than just verbal. When Christ is referred to as God's Word (John 1:1-7), it means just that. God spoke through Christ; not merely verbally but with actions. I think it was Christ who said that he only says what his Father in Heaven tells him to say.
It is my belief that God is telling us that he exists by creating the universe. If we do not believe him, then we are calling him a liar - or just as worse, a lie. Perhaps God didn't speak English in order to create the universe; maybe he just spoke a universal language that we could all understand.
Sorry for any errors in the post. I have to get going now. I'll revise it later perhaps.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
7 pages in and the posts are getting too long and confusing to be worth reading. Everyone has their own opinions and beliefs, this thread has been debated to hell and back (Metaphor and Irony, meh) the OPs question was answered...quite some time ago. This has now turned into a flame war (A level 2 out of 5 one, it's getting pointless, but it hasn't turned into a capslock fiesta yet)
This topic should have been left to rest, no offesne freethinker, you possess a great logical mind but most topics, espicially ones like this, should usually be left forgotten when dead for 10 days.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
look up "sin" in multiple dictionaries, you'll see I'm right. (notice how an overwhelming majory include the supernatural
I looked in three dictionaries and they all included definitions of transgressions against both religious and morallaw. I pretty much think that both moral and religious go hand-in-hand in many instances. But as the dictionaries give examples of sin's usage as being outside of a divine law, we can assume that moral means something different than religious to many people (because people's morals differ from one person to the other based on past experiences and prejudices/biases). Sinning against the State is sometimes different than sinning against God though. To worship false gods is a sin against the God, but not the State. To commit murder is often a sin against both the (hopefully) State and God. To flick boogers into the wind may be a sin against the State, but not against God, see?
well, as i said before i base my morality on humanity.
Not exactly sure what that means, myself. I think it means that you base your morality on what most humans view as right/wrong or else what has worked in the past and what did not. Personally, I base my morals on what most upholds God's creation - the fulfillment and bettering of life in general. Example: A person who murders is worth less to me than a person who does not murder since murdering (the killing of a being of equal or greater quality or potential without an appropriate reason) is less beneficial to humanity and to creation than not murdering.
That of course is simply a template of one instance. Very rarely are there such easily distinguished examples in reality.
i'm "passing judgement" on the idea that god is both omnipotent/omniscient and just. I've clearly shown he's not.
Which brings to mind another concern. If God is not omnipotent, omniscient and just (by our standards) that still does not mean that he does not exist. To me, though, it seems like a Creator would not want to instinctively harm his creation. How many of you, after building a model airplane, see that it is good and then have someone bump into it, scratching it, and then you decide to smash it to pieces? Even though sin is in this world by the very definition of the word (an offense against divine or moral - see my disambiguation of morals above - law), it is a very beautiful world still.
Oh, and I suppose I'll have to go back over your other posts to see where you've shown that he is not omnipotent, omniscient and just. By the way, pointing to passages in Scripture which seemingly portray God as a transient being without a plan (ommitted "or clue" - because if he does seem incompetent, then I think we can judge for ourselves what is likely truth) do not hold up in my mind. Since God has chosen to create this universe in a dimension of time (theoretically time as a dimension), he has a plan but has also chosen to interact with it on the basis of time. Example: God, at least to my knowledge, hasn't looked ahead to the future ever and said, "You're going to sin in ten years from now so I'm going to punish you right now." I think he's more likely to know that we are going to sin later on in our lives and then punish/discipline us when we do it - which is a planned conditional action based on an amount of passing time. This doesn't mean that God does not know what we are going to do or is not prepared with a plan, but rather reacts in accord with a time-based creation.
Also, a group of fallible beings judging a supposedly infallible God is a moot judgement. If the God is perfect and we are fallible, then wouldn't our own viewpoints on justice be slanted? I think the major concern is whether or not God is a human invention - which would then make him susceptible to error. What we're trying to find, though, is whether or not God has any error in him to show that he may be a human invention. That then makes a complete circle back to the case of imperfection judging possible perfection. I think the only matter one may decide in this case, after ample research into God's motives, is whether or not one wishes to follow him based on those motives. Often is the case though that we misjudge his motives.
natural disaster happen for various reasons. all of which have nothing to do with a snake and a naked couple in a garden
I think there is a reason why Adam (meaning Man or The Man) and Eve (I think means Living) lived in that specific garden. It may have been unlike any other place in the world at this time. God expelled them from this place so they had to live away from direct contact with him (outside of his protection for the most part) in the other less hospitable places of the world. Some Scripture differs on the way it is read, but how it differs here is vital in proving or disproving my theory. The translation I'm working with reads, "Cursed is the ground for your sake." That appears to me to mean that God had left the rest of the world to disarray in anticipation of this sin (ie. "The ground is cursed for your sake." - indicating past tense).
The other translation that I know of reads, "Cursed is the ground because of you," which means to me that God had cursed the ground for this special occasion - again, taking things in stride as time permits his interaction with four-dimensional creatures. This passage does not indicate a cursing before time, but could still be read (less likely than the first passage) to mean that.
When the sin came, only then were humans expelled from a state of paradise to live in the rest of the world. Thus outside of God's perfection, we indeed did die.
And just because places in the world are inhospitable does not mean that they are not also good. Very, very few things can survive in space (solely of their selves) for any length of time, but it is still a beautiful and mysterious place - or rather sum of all places that has enriched and given hope to humanity.
Also, I believe Aldaron's analogy is a sound one. Though we are not omnipotent, we were created in his image - to be somewhat like him. Since we were created in his image, we can learn a little about him by looking at ourselves. Now knowing that we do have similarities with him, we also know that we have power to affect the world around us. We have the potential to use our power for evil, but hopefully most of us restrain ourselves from doing evil. This is not a limitation to power but rather a choice to restrain from its improper use. I think Aldaron is saying that God probably has potential omnipotence, but because of his own will he chooses not to exercise his powers in certain ways - therefore he is capable of whatever he wishes to do, but he wishes not to follow a certain course of action. There is power and then there is action. This comes from the very basic understanding of potential and kinetic energy; energy in rest or energy in motion. But the ability is there, and the ability to influence something is also power.
PS. I have corrected what I believe to be an error on my part. It is highlighted in yellow and the error is explained.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
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Originally posted by freethinker
nope. changing the definition of a word to make yourself look right is dishonest. this is exactly what you did. look up "sin" in multiple dictionaries, you'll see I'm right. (notice how an overwhelming majory include the supernatural)
Hrm...I changed the definition of the word? Because really; as far as I can recall, I actually pulled that out of the dictionary.
Now you're being the dishonest one, by saying that I made this up out of thin air.
If you're going to resort to such brazen trickery, maybe you should just avoid debates altogether: Remember, honesty is the best policy.
well, as i said before i base my morality on humanity. so much for your murder, rape, stealing and baby-eating strawman.
Base it on humanity? Last time I checked, Humanity does alot of those aforementioned evils. But unless you mean what is the good for humanity. But then again, that's about as arbitrary and vague as your view on morals: For even Hitler thought the extermination of Jews and anything Non-Aryan was Good for humanity.
false analogy. repeat after me: people are not omnisicent like said creator.
so much for my vague and asinine baby-eating.
So, did god create everything?
False analogy? Ooo...Way to rebut. It doesnt matter if were omniscient or not, as long as we can impact the world, in your mind, wed be guilty of all evil acts.
And did God create everything? I'd say no...Just for the whole fact that Edison created the Lightbulb, not God; although he did create light, so maybe it was a joint venture thing.
depends on who you ask... in the most ideal sense i think that if someone takes another life then they don't deserve to have theirs. but (thankfully) we have a judge/jury system for that so you and i don't decide.
And all of theirs idea on who is constituted to be deprived of life, changes from this to that. For that matter, in Nazi Germany, Hitler was the judge, jury, and executioner, and by his law, and view of what was right, he killed millions of innocent people based upon their Race or Religion.
actually, i'm playing devils advocate.
No you're not. Because you fully believe in being an adversary of the belief in God. If you were agnostic, and you didn't care one way or the other, you'd be a devils advocate.
Devils advocate:
One who argues against a cause or position, not as a committed opponent but simply for the sake of argument or to determine the validity of the cause or position.
i don't believe in a god or devils
Would have never guessed...
.... i'm simply using logic to shread your claims.
You may have to make that clearer. Because I haven't seen any logic. Just ambiguous messages laced with arrogance.
way to miss the point.
Way to miss the point...What point? That you're an atheist? Yah, silly me. I completely missed that point.
(fyi: atheist means lack of belief in a gods)
Would have never guessed...
i'm "passing judgement" on the idea that god is both omnipotent/omniscient and just. I've clearly shown he's not.
Sorry, conjecture isn't fact, try again.
of course i don't know how it all came to be...no one does and either do you...you just have a belief that tells you goddidit.
And you have a belief that he didn't.
if said creator is real and omnisscient he would have constructed reality and know all future outcomes (he'd know it because he's omniscient).
in other words... back when the earth was forming, he'd know that this morning i would choose to eat pancakes instead of waffles. i chose pancakes, to choose waffles would go against god's knowledge and render him not omniscient.
welcome to the predeterminded world of the all-knowing.
He would have constructed reality for what? So we couldn't stumble, so we couldn't fall? Yah...Just remove free will from the picture.
Satan wasn't created with an evil nature,
Ok then, where did evil come from then?
It happend when he rebelled against God.
which you seem to be so stuck on: In fact it said he was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him.
this contradicts your previous statment "satan wasn't created with an evil nature"....if he didn't have an evil nature how in the world could "iniquity be found in him"?? wow, are you thinking through these claims before you write them? <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" />
Haven't we already gone over this? He had a free will. He chose to use it against God.
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if you want to make an analogy then please make it actually analogous to the discussion. i'm not being obtuse i'm simply pointing out flaws in your reasoning. now, do you have an analogy that fits better? because that one sucked.
Whether you think it "Sucked" or not, I don't care. You obviously got the point. I feel no need to repeat myself.
he could but he can't. I'll flip a coin to see if i understand...the coin fell on both heads and tails. I wish i could see my keyboard but the light is both on and off. I need some air so I'll go outside yet i'm still inside.
do you now see the problem of absolute claims? if you give god absolute attributes they must stay absolute...you can't say that god is omnipotent then say he can't do something because then you're contradicting yourself.
i hope it's clear now.
Adreal sums it up:
Originally posted by Adreal
Also, I believe Aldaron's analogy is a sound one. Though we are not omnipotent, we were created in his image - to be somewhat like him. Since we were created in his image, we can learn a little about him by looking at ourselves. Now knowing that we do have similarities with him, we also know that we have power to affect the world around us. We have the potential to use our power for evil, but hopefully most of us restrain ourselves from doing evil. This is not a limitation to power but rather a choice to restrain from its improper use. I think Aldaron is saying that God probably has potential omnipotence, but because of his own will he chooses not to exercise his powers in certain ways - therefore he is capable of whatever he wishes to do, but he wishes not to follow a certain course of action. There is power and then there is action. This comes from the very basic understanding of potential and kinetic energy; energy in rest or energy in motion. But the ability is there, and the ability to influence something is also power.
i thought about it and it made absolutley no sense whatsoever.
god is either omniscient and knows all or he's not. god is either omnipotent and is all powerfull or he's not..
again, see the problem with absolute claims? don't try to pass god off as omnipotent then tell me he can't do something...don't try to pass god off as omniscient then tell me he allows for freewill to occur...don't make absolute claims then say there's an exception because then your claim is no longer absolute.
see?
1. Omnipotent. I already showed the explanation.
2. Omniscient: Just because you see something happening, doesn't mean the people involved have no free will in the matter. You see the outcome of their free will.
not at all. most historical figures aren't said to have supernatural powers or do anything outrageous like rise from the dead. also, we have letters, and documented evidence of many historical figures.
Have you ever seen these letters, or documented evidence, in all their glory? Have you ran tests to see their validity? Or maybe...For the most part, you've just trusted what some guy, or some book said hrmm...
it's wrong to rape because it causes unnecessary harm to the victim and violates her rights. i don't need an Invisible Sky Boss to tell me that.
In his mind, it's not unncessary. You and him haver differing opinions. Hitler thought that Jews and Blacks had no rights, and he was top dog of Germany, hence making his words back then, law. Does that mean he's right?
You're basing your view of morality and rights off of some modernized thought process of what is believed to be right and wrong. If there is no God, there is no absolute. Meaning there is no morality. And your belief is just what YOU view as right. But since you are not absolute, your belief of what is right, means jack.
i say he's wrong because that's what i base my morality on. i base my morality on that because i know living things seek to avoid harm. this isn't a very hard concept to understand.
Who's to say your right?
sorry, it's confusing to those of us who actually think through these things. I'm sure it's easy for those who accustom to believing what their told to believe...after all, what isn't why you take it on faith?
What? That made absolutely no sense. Especially that last sentence. And you're obviously not thinking it through. Because i've explained it in depth.
^ this is all naked assertions. non provable..its just an expression of your belief.
Here's why they really happen (no fruit or falling men necessary and it doesn't require my belief. it's true whether i choose to believe it or not.)
And it is provable. We just havent had the available situation/technology/information to prove it.
freewill is naturally removed since I'm endowed with the gift of omniscience. I know all outcomes right now. I know how every choice that everyone is going to make plays out and it must happen exactley that way. If there were any point of uncertainty (i.e., you chose to turn left after i knew you would turn right) then that would prove me NOT omniscient.
see now?
free·will ) adj.
Done of one's own accord; voluntary.
Your argument is completely false. As long as you can do things of your own accord, you'll have free will.
If so, I see no point in rebutting against a stone.
if it appears im a stone then its because what i'm saying is factually correct. if you disagree with it feel free to refute my claims anytime. so far you're only preaching what you believe which frankly i don't find very interesting.
Wow man...Now you're cutting out what I wholly said to fit your argument? Either you feel desperate and are grabbing for straws, or you're just dishonest.
Here, lets show what I really said, in context, "
You're the one I argued this before, and you stated even without a God, there would be no free will, right?
If so, I see no point in rebutting against a stone."
dunno, i thought that was the consequence for not believing in jesus. you're not going to try and say that you can get into heaven w/out accepting jesus are you?
Actually, no one "gets to heaven". There is absolutely no biblical reference of it. People still go to paradise, or hell. And it says that men are judged upon their hearts. If someone has a good heart, then they won't be burning in hell. If you have some foul child molester that claims to put himself off as a Christian, that definitely won't save him, and he'll be spending time next to Hitler.
i agree. however this is hard to do when you have a 20' wall of water unexpectantly hit you from out of nowhere.
what a horrible horrible act of evil to have the ability to stop something as horrific as what happened yet refuse to do so.
that is what I consider evil.
Would you like to be a robot? Honestly. You said it's evil to not stop evil. Yet if all evil was to be stopped. God could do one of two things. Obliterate the universe, or interfere with everyones lives to the extent of putting a brick wall between them and the possibility of evil(No freewill).
I've known quite a few people that do exactly that, and have a bitter resentment and dislike for the person, doing it for a type of tradition, and etiquette. And I know the exact opposite of people who say they truely love the person, and probably do, but don't have the time to do that.
how do you know what they truly feel? you only know what people feel by what they say and by their actions.
Exactly. I don't. I don't know how you feel either. You can say this or that. But I'll never truely know. For all I know, you're lying and just doing it to save face or whatnot. Hence, you got no proof.
It's like me saying I got magical powers and can manipulate magnetism: Yes, that's right, i'm the real Magneto.
Your idea of love is arbitrary,
lol. like it could be anything else.
Exactly.
you're wrong. read it again (pay especially close attention to the part i bolded). Then think through your conclusion (hint: where does elijah get his powers).
Words have power to them. There were cases of pagan priest's going and cursing a city right before a war to sway it into their favor.
I do not know if God condoned what Elijah did, and may never will. ===========
This thing with you posting your beliefs and me pointing out the contradictions has been amusing but now it's getting sorta tedious.
maybe you'd like to debate something now?
I see no contradictions. I see what you believe to be as contradictions(Your belief). But that hardly makes it gospel.
If you do wish to debate.
1. Quit with the repetism.
2. Quit being purposefully ignorant(I hope it purposefully, at least).
3. Quit being pretentious and ARROGANT, as actually thinking that what you say is Gospel, and fact; and not just your differing belief.
4. Quit cutting up my posts and rebutting things out of context.
If you can do all this. I'll reply back. But if you can't, don't expect a reply, because for the last two posts it's been debating over the same thing; and it's becoming a bothersome trifle having to explain things that simple common sense can work out.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
I agree at the moment. I mean, God can create the world, but he doesn't appear to have created the river that formed in the landscape of the world by precipitation and overflow. He may have indirectly, but that is different than directly creating/influencing something. If he is omniscient then he could have clearly seen it happening, but then again he did not stop to create the stars knowing that people would worship them. He created beauty and restrained not his power (to my knowledge) just because some of us might make the wrong decision, being seduced by beauty to make an evil decision. He does what he wants and when he wants with his own creation. It's up to us to do what is right and not place the blame on him for our own actions which were the direct influence.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
He would have constructed reality for what? So we couldn't stumble, so we couldn't fall? Yah...Just remove free will from the picture.
I think what Freethinker is saying is that if God is both omniscient and omnipotent, then he could have found infinitely many ways (or at least more than one) of maintaining free will and still having a perfect universe/world. At least that's what I gather that your concern is, Freethinker. Correct me if I am wrong.
Well, that may be possible, but I think the best way to go about it was to present us with a choice. In my opinion, there can be many ways to go about something, but there can also be only one way that is the best. We can see this by looking at this universe; there can be multiple or even infinite beings throughout eternity, but there is only one who is prime and from which all others derive their existence. God wants those who will worship him in spirit and in truth (John 4:23). If God constructed reality in such a way that we still had free will but did not have to use it (thus it being effectively useless) we would worship him automatically. There had to first be free will and then there had to be its application for the followers of God to choose to worship him no matter their situation in life. Those who worship God no matter what happens are true worshipers in my opinion. As a side note, those who do good no matter what life they are made to live are also truly good.
I believe the worship of God in spirit and in truth is something different than liturgy or required praise. It is understanding that God is deserving of this praise first of all and then making the choice to worship him of your own accord. That, at least in part, is what I believe John 4:23 is saying.
What I think is the second part of this statement is that it does not matter where you worship God just as long as you worship him in spirit (because in John 4:19-24 a Samaritan woman is concerned as to where she is to worship God - Christ tells her basically that it doesn't matter where you worship him just as long as you truly do so). You can go to a cathedral and worship him there, but that doesn't matter just as long as you gather with other Christians (if you can) and worship him. It is realizing that there is a greater truth than going inside a church building and singing a few songs. It is the meditation on the words in those songs, participating or not participating in communion with a worthy spirit (not just as liturgy), and knowing that it wouldn't matter where you met or where you worshiped God just as long as you do and that you choose to do so because you think it is the right thing (ie. the shaking off of all liturgical or heartless constraints that were taken as granted as a child and once overlooked).
To further elaborate on my understanding (or lack thereof) of this passage, since God is spirit (John 4:24) he does not desire others to worship images of him (idols) but to worship him for who he really is - not to worship his shadow but his personality (his spirit - all that he is). If people worshiped God just because he was beautiful in appearance, they would also likely worship Satan who is also beautiful in appearance. But worshiping him in spirit requires that we worship him for who he really is. And that includes physical beauty as seen by the eyes, intellectual beauty as seen by the mind, and beauty as seen by the heart.
I also do not believe that God would create a reality in which free will was not given to those with whom he wanted a relationship. Nor do I believe that he would create free will and not allow its application. To have a true and meaningful relationship with God, you must have free will and you must choose of your own free will to accept God or to reject him and when you will or will not speak with him, walk with him, etc.
Also on the point of the fear of the Lord being the beginning of wisdom... The fear of the Lord is only the beginning of wisdom. It does not mean that you are wise to fear God. If you are so wise, then you would know that there is nothing to fear of God if you live a life according to his will. The fear of God comes either from the ignorance of his nature or from the realization that you have done something contrary to his will. To simply fear him is not wisdom in itself.
But fearing him should cause you to act on that fear and to learn about him and to grow in a relationship with him. And in growing in a relationship with him you discover truth (2 Timothy 2:15) which brings understanding. By understanding we are made wise. This is seen in our own lives, to the one who wishes to defend their beliefs, they must research them. Upon researching them, they gain knowledge. The meditation on knowledge leads to understanding and by understanding we acquire wisdom. So the fear of the Lord is one path to wisdom, but I believe it to be one of the best paths, for nothing else prompts us so much to act as discomfort in our lives.
And here is a passage of advice for Christians in debates (but that all can learn from): 2 Timothy 2:24-26 I am aware that my posts are rather lengthy and that it takes more than a few minutes to read them, but that is because it often takes more than a few minutes to write them.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
No reason to be atheist/agnostic? I'll give you two. 1) Although its not a requirement to go to church/mass for christians the majority of them do and look down upon not attending. When I was younger I went to church 2 hours every Sunday, because my parents forced me to thinking it would instill good morals in me (not to say that it doesn't or won't, but I believe there are better methods). Thats 104 hours a year minimum (not counting the odd wed's and such we went, nor the extended services for holidays) that is wasted (in an athiests/agnostics eyes) practicing and observing a religion that they don't believe in, hours better spent feeding the poor or inventing a cure for cancer (a number of things could happen).
2) The Moral repercussions. Although some religious people may not view athiests/agnostic as morally upright athiests/agnostic people are not without morals and many of them believe in human rights and peace just like any other moral abiding citizen. If an athiest/agnostic believes in the well being of all morally upright law abiding people yet the bible says that denying the existence of god (questioning the existence of god falls under this as well) as "blasphemy" and those who do shall be sent to eternal damnation and punished eternally, then why would an athiest/agnostic want to have christian faith? What about the animal activist athiests/agnostics? The bible says that all animals are simply tools of man and they are without souls... if that is true then christians believe they should be used just like any other tool, and Im sure animal activists doesnt appreciate Bob the Cowboy tying a rope around a bulls balls then around his neck just to ride him for a couple of seconds for the "thrill" of it. Not to mention the moral consequences to the passifist athiest/agnostics of believing in a god who killed a mans family destroyed his home and burned his crops just to test his faith.
If god is omnipotent and omniscient then god created and sees all, whether directly or indirectly (e.g. god creates man who cures cancer, god didn't directly cure cancer but he created the man who cured cancer so thus god created the cure for cancer indirectly). So whether indirectly or directly god created everything in the universe, including things viewed as good and evil by man. So to believe that god can't do something is contradicting your belief, its not that god cant its that god choose not to. Afterall god is omniscient so god sees what is happening and acts upon it. If god loves all his creatures and creations that means god tries to protect them all the same (which would explain the vengfulness). To have thousands of years of a vengeful god killing humans (for possibly tampering with his other creations that he didnt see fit) and then believing it all goes away with the death of gods son (who was resurrected anyway) seems like an easy way out for believers. "Believe that Jesus died for your sins and you shall be forgiven forever"? Seems rather biased for a god who treats all of gods creations equally.
I see all the time in the bible that god killed but it is never explained how god killed, its just why god did it and to who. If there is a god, god is still as vengeful as god was in the old testament, people die everyday from all sorts of things and we all know we tamper with the earth far more then anyone did thousands of years ago. The problem with humans is they see themselves as the greatest beings on earth and everything else inferior, how do you know god sees it the same way? Perhaps god kills many people in tsunamis and tornados because they tampered with gods creations in a way god didnt see fit, or they were going to tamper with gods creations so god stopped it before it began. While it may look cruel and unjust to humans and something a kind loving god wouldnt do, in gods view god may be saving several animals or plants or perhaps several hundreds of thousands of other people. What god sees as good and evil may not be what man sees as good an evil, afterall god created us in gods image (but exactly what image of god was that?) How do we know that god didnt create other things in his image, only a different part of his image? Ill let you think about that
And onto the subject of freewill and destiny, both have their merits and dismerits. I believe the most universal language to be pictures and images, while every languge has a different word for the color red, everyone will know it is just by looking at it. This is exactly how our minds work, we see an image or picture and then match a word to it and speak it. Perhaps this is how a god would talk to us, by relaying pictures and images to you. Maybe those "gut" feelings you get and those strong inhibitions to do one thing over another is really god telling you to do something, or just a part of his omniscient and omnipotent plan, that benefits his creations the most... in other words our destinies. Or perhaps god is omniscient only by what god chooses to see, perhaps he can see all outcomes but focuses on what god sees fit for god the most. Afterall, a creator is still bound to the rules of his creation when using it... just because a man makes a trampoline does not mean he won't fall through the elastic while jumping. God may have a plan but it may not be the only plan there is, and this is where freewill comes in. All creatures choose what they wish to do by their own conciousness and decisions, and perhas if god doesn't like what is chosen or it effects gods creations god may choose to kill whatever disrupts gods plan or bring disfortune upon anything god chooses.
Afterall, if god is omnipowerful and omniscent then god can do as god pleases within the binds of gods own creation. But that by no means makes him all loving and kind to human standards.
-Shojin
Just on the border of your waking mind There lies another time Where darkness and light are one, And as you tread the halls of sanity, You feel so glad to be unable to go beyond. I have a message from another time...
Comments
hah..that thing is pretty cool.
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Dont be confused about that man...GOD is a good God. He is righteous but he aint no phoney either.He punishes the wicked! But God is also merciful thats why he GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON TO SAVE US FROM SIN. We are sinners even if we dont admit it.Dont forget that Jesus also said that he came not to erase the old testament but to fulfill it.Lean not on your own understanding but in Him.Isnt it wonderful to know that he sacrificed his Son just to save us? God is a perfect God.
Be aware that Lucifer is a deceitful snake. If you were in Gods shoes and one of your creation wants to take over and play as God himself...what would you do?
To fear God is the begginning of wisdom.
A 13 year old talking in absolutes and telling me to read my Bible.
I took religion classes everyday for 15 years, and all it showed me was that the Bible is a flaw ridden pile of rubbish. Don't act like you know the answer to God. If God does exist, you can't begin to fathom him. I'll respect your belief in God, but you need to learn to respect my beliefs, too.
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For all you people out there who think God is created sin and evilnesyuor wrong. God couldnot create sin because he is Holy and Righteous and creating sin would make him evil. God is also very merciful and loving ( john 3:16) and rewards those loyal to him(whole book of Job). Yes, I will respect your beleifs if you think there is no God ,but just a warning your wrong. If you dont beleive in Jesus as your saviour thhan you will go to hell(ya it's a real place). And why not beleive you got nothing to lose, you beleive in jesus live your life serving him then spend eternity in Heaven.All you miss is immoral thingsthat will get you in trouble. If you dont beleive try reading something about God from different points of views before condeming others beleifs and saying you got the ideas from harry potter is just a stupid excuse. And if you thing that the Bible s wrong get a clue if it's wrong why have so many historical facts in it been proved true. And anither the Bible has not changed thru translation, like a couple decades back some shepherds found some scrolls ina cave by the dead sea( the Dead Sea Scrolls) and sold them at a market not knowing what they were,then a christian saw them knowing what they were he bought them when they were translated to English they found that just about nothing in the Bible has changed over Centuries.
gotta get back to school bye
A 13 year old talking in absolutes and telling me to read my Bible.
I took religion classes everyday for 15 years, and all it showed me was that the Bible is a flaw ridden pile of rubbish. Don't act like you know the answer to God. If God does exist, you can't begin to fathom him. I'll respect your belief in God, but you need to learn to respect my beliefs, too.
Look modjoe86 if you took religion classes for 15 years and you think the Bible is rubbish then either you were taking the wrong classes or there is something wrong with your thinking . Oh , by the way willietdog never claimed to understand God all he said was thatyou should read your Bible and go to Church and you will understand God BETTER not fully BETTER
Personaly I dont belive in this god stuff. Its all man made anyways. Its pagan myths etc.
But the thing with heaven is just a insain thing. Ok, lets say there is a heaven and hell. Heaven is were all the "good" and "loving" jesus and god fearing people go to. Ok?
So there you sit, happy and full of joy that you are in heaven...ok now think a second. Since YOU are in heaven then there is a Hell right? Now how would that make you feel KNOWING that there are millions/billions of innocent people that really never did ANYTHING bad in there lives, loved there childeren, family etc are down in hell screaming and in pain for all time just because they dont belive?
That to me would really be Hell......
Heaven is were all the "good" and "loving" jesus and god fearing people go to.
To put it simply.
Now how would that make you feel KNOWING...
Revelation 21:4
that there are millions/billions of innocent people that really never did ANYTHING bad in there lives
What would you consider bad (assuming you've done some wrong things in your life)? What would a perfect God consider bad? If you even hate your brother, it appears that you have commited a great sin. Leviticus 19:17, 1John 3:15
loved there childeren, family etc are down in hell screaming and in pain for all time just because they dont belive?
Apart from the biases surrounding our culture concerning mythology, I don't think there is a legitimate reason not to believe (other than the fact that you want to live an immoral life to get a high once in a while and don't want to feel guilty in doing so). It is my opinion that, given our current circumstances, there's no reason at all to be an atheist. The least someone should reasonably be is a theist of some form.
So if that assumption holds true, then the only reason someone wouldn't believe is because they are ignoring the implications for the existence of a Creator and just want to live life their own way. This doesn't mean their not intelligent, but rather... Psalm 14:1-3 (the word fool, I just read, comes from a Hebrew word which denotes someone who is "morally deficient"); John 12:25; Matthew 19:21-23 (the needle, I think, is a form of gateway back then - it's just called "needle" for some reason. At least that's what I've heard).
family etc are down in hell screaming and in pain for all time just because they dont belive?
If my assumption of the unbeliever's motives holds true (even if you or someone else acknowledges it in part), then not believing is rejecting a probable God. If accepting God results (sooner or later) in complete peace and joy, I think you can realize what rejecting him would entail.
I've said this to another person (may have been Razor): The furthest I could fall from Christianity is to become a Deist. I don't believe in a shortage of evidence to completely promote a lack of belief.
PS. Just to clarify something. When I said that other than the fact that you want to live an immoral life to get a high once in a while and don't want to feel guilty in doing so, I meant that we often want to live our lives our way. And for some reason this might make atheists stay away from religion because they somehow picture all Christians/theists as wasting away their lives in a dark corner of a room while flogging themselves for their own sins. If this is so, then I mean to tell you that this is not the case with more enlightened Christians. It might be for a while until you learn the truth. And that truth is to preach through the way you live (afterall, it's the best way to go about it). And God did not create us to live in misery. I would say that he created us to be with him and to grow in a relationship with him. If you wish to spend time with him by reading the Bible 24/7 and praying to him constantly, that can be very fulfilling, peaceful, and pleasant to a devout Christian - but that is not for everyone. We all fulfill our purposes in different ways.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
you might be a sinner. i'm not since i reject your idea of "sin".
not really, it would have been better not to create evil in the first place. not hard at all for a perfect god, wouldn't ya say?
nice, i guess that tsunami that killed over 100,000 people was all a part of god's "perfect plan". how just and perfect indeed.
don't you mean serpent?...aww jeeze...nevermind1. since i'm perfect i would laugh and create reality in such a way that it would be impossible.
2. I could allow it to be possible, punish the being for acting on its nature then damn it to hell for all eternity.
If I were a perfect creator, I would choose 1. That way I'm not an evil tyrant dictator.
i disagree, I think it's wholly ignorant.
God could not create sin, therefore he's not all-powerfull. nice contradiction there.
prove it.
no one's going to hell. It's not a real place.
Unless you have the wrong god. then you spend your entire live believing and serving jesus and end up in hell anyway. Like you're going to do since the real god is the purple and green bunny rabit and you're not giving your 10%.
please...name one.
what are you talking about? this is so innacurate is embarrasing that you posted it. much of the bible has been mistranslated according to theologians.
ok, plz come back when you reach 5th grade and learn how to construct a real argument...kthnx
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i reject that notion that your bible holds any truth in this matter.
besides, anyone can post bible versus:
Psalm 137:9
Happy shall he be, who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock.
if god is the creator and didn't create evil. how could man have chose evil?
Unless you'd like to explain who the other creator is who created evil.
You're contradicting yourself again.
natural disaster happen for various reasons. all of which have nothing to do with a snake and a naked couple in a garden.
If i was really so offended by someone trying to overthrow me, i would construct reality in such a way to make that impossible.
allowing a tsunami to kills hundreds of thousands....all i can say is actions speak louder than words.
sorry, i don't belive in devils and demons, talking serpents, cud-chewing rabbits, speaking donkeys or any of the other stuff that's in the bible.
i critically examine thing things people tell me. I don't just accept them blindly. If using your brain makes you arrogant, then maybe you have a point
Answer this question --->
if god is the creator and didn't create evil. how could man have chose evil?
.
freethinker gets mad when someone says god is real, therefore god exists. <---fallacy
i don't get mad, im actually in a very good mood today. i hope you are too.
prove it. (hint: proving it does not mean quoting a bible verse)
a slew of violence in the middle ages. this is not a winning argument for you.
You'll have to do better than naked assertions.
Glad to see you agree there are mistranslations.
There are also many mistranslations between the hebrew and greek text.
are you serious? all you did was tell us what you believe and make some contradictory claims.
I would hardly call that putting up. Also, once again, I'm not mad...plz quit projecting your feelings on to me.
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"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Holy crap. You know the sick thing about it all? The liquor store I go to sells rabbit foot keychains. They're killing those rabbits. And then rubbing it in in our faces.
Those rabbit's foot keychains are colored too. OMG OMG OMG!!!! I want my bunnies to come back.
actually, i was talking about what YOU define as sin and since your a christian we both know what that means. I think it's disingenuous how you completely left out the supernatural element in your definition...so plz stop trying to change the definition and try being a bit more honest (remember, in your faith being dishonest is still a sin).
anyway, here's what you probably meant to define sin as
from merriam-webster:
<i>sin:an offense against religious or moral law b : an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible (it's a sin to waste food) c : an often serious shortcoming : FAULT
2 a : transgression of the law of God b : a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God
synonym see OFFENSE</i>
since you're a christian you derive your morals from the bible which i utterly reject.
those who maintain god is the creator of everything.
Did god create everything? If yes then you don't have to go any further, my point stands.
Like I said above...actions speak louder than words.
i'm reaaaaly sure that the thousands of non-christian women and children who drowned in those tidalwaves deserved it. maybe next time they'll hit up the Big Mob Boss In The Sky for some protection and they'll be spared eh?
how barbaric. and you wonder why atheists find your faith abhorrent and completely unbelievable.
???perhaps
and i can think of a few "non perfect" ways to do it better.
(hint: my methods don't include creating people with a certain nature, allowing harm to come to them when they act on that nature, then damning them to hell for eternity.)
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god is said to be omnipotent creator, therefore by definition there is nothing he can't do. however, you are not omnipotent. therefore, your analogy is false.
I'd be happy if he at least showed evidence for any claims he's making. right now all he's doing is preaching.
i was playing tit-for-tat to make a point with the post. i'll make that more obvious from now on.
regardless...I'll prove my claim when he proves his. besides, i don't have enough time today to disprove a universal negative.
if there is no alcohol then there are no purple and green bunnies. (notice: I'm playing tit-for-tat to prove a point.)
There's no proof or evidence that Jesus ever existed.
i base my morals on humanity and the avoidence of unnecessary harm.
yea only it doesn't make any sense. Did god create the nature of our universe alone? Did he have someone there to help him? It seems you're claiming that satan and people have equal creation powers as god. so confusing and contradictory.
We know why hurricanes, tsunamis and tornadoes happen. you can thank science for that one.
this is really a ridiculous point.
free will is bunk anyway. if you agree that god is an omniscient/omnipotent creator then freewill cannot exist. for freewill to exist there would have to be a point of uncertainty...there's no uncertainty with an omniscient creator.
but, in the real world there's no need for terms like freewill...just people making everyday choices (i can prove that happens)
right, i'll tell litte Lakia who was ripped from her mothers arms when the tidal wave hit to quit spitting in god's face. Next time maybe she'll have the foresite to somehow tune in to Western media to learn how her and her entire family is worshipping the wrong god. Then maybe she'll afford the Big Mob Boss In The Sky's protection right?
I'm sure she'll have lots of time to think about that as she's inhaling saltwater and slowly suffocating to death. If she doesn't get a chance to do it as she's dying, maybe she can use the time when she's burning in hell for eternity.
absolutley sickining the way some people think.
look it up, it's not hard to find. (think leviticus)
whatever THAT means.
nice..ready to answer the question now?
my question : if god is the creator and didn't create evil. how could man have chose evil?
your answer : because it's the opposite of god.
your answer makes no sense.
sure, that's an easy one. I call her a couple times a week to check on her. we go out to eat on occasions. i tell her i love her. i send her mothers day cards and flowers. anyone looking at that could reasonably conclude that i love my mother.
(note: i don't drown her in tidal waves for that would be unloving)
now you claim to know the will of god?
did you know god sent bears to rip children apart because they called one of his beloved prophets "baldy".
with evil like that why are crusades so outlandish?
again, this is not a winning argument for you.
==========================
Originally posted by freethinker <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
actually, i was talking about what YOU define as sin and since your a christian we both know what that means. I think it's disingenuous how you completely left out the supernatural element in your definition...so plz stop trying to change the definition and try being a bit more honest (remember, in your faith being dishonest is still a sin).
anyway, here's what you probably meant to define sin as
from merriam-webster:
<i>sin:an offense against religious or moral law b : an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible (it's a sin to waste food) c : an often serious shortcoming : FAULT
2 a : transgression of the law of God b : a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God
synonym see OFFENSE</i>
since you're a christian you derive your morals from the bible which i utterly reject.
I was perfectly honest. Now you're just being asinine.
You said you rejected the idea of sin(or his view of sin, but we'll go onto the relevance either way), and as I proved, sin is a very universal thing.
With the second definition having the same meaning as the first, but they both get their laws from differing sources.
But hey...If you think that murder, rape, and stealing is A-ok, then I'll agree that you'd find no meaning with the word "sin"(or anything dealing with religiously shunned "no no"s"), but although I think you're misguided, I do hope you at least have a moral compass.
not really, it would have been better not to create evil in the first place. not hard at all for a perfect god, wouldn't ya say?
Who said he created it?
those who maintain god is the creator of everything.
nice, i guess that tsunami that killed over 100,000 people was all a part of god's "perfect plan". how just and perfect indeed.
Like jumping out of a plane and hitting the ground like a rock and going *splat*. There are certain reactions to actions.
Did god create everything? If yes then you don't have to go any further, my point stands.
If you want to be so vague and asinine: Then everytime something horrible happends, everytime someone is murdered, raped, everytime a poor child is molested; we're all at fault because we all had an impact on the world around us, every little bit, that nudged each action taking place at each time. Everyone filling the puzzle to the ultimate picture.
And with a mindset like that: Any sins, evils, and destruction your fathers, no matter how many generations it goes back, you're just as guilty.
It says that God wishes for none to perish, and all to come to repentence.
Like I said above...actions speak louder than words.
So when you spit in God's face, and Satan comes a knocking on your door, there is no reason to expect protection, as so many seem to think they are deserved of.
i'm reaaaaly sure that the thousands of non-christian women and children who drowned in those tidalwaves deserved it. maybe next time they'll hit up the Big Mob Boss In The Sky for some protection and they'll be spared eh?
how barbaric. and you wonder why atheists find your faith abhorrent and completely unbelievable. <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" />
What constitutes someone being deserved of death?
And frankly, I'm not sure why atheist's would blame Christianity for Satan's handiwork...Oh wait. I get it, scapegoat, right? I mean blaming Satan wouldn't be the politically correct thing to do, it goes against their lil Crusade against all things religious.
So lets blame God...brilliant, brilliant. Lets blame God for everything, like everyone has had an affinity to do for thousands of years. You screw up, and you then blame God. Never thinking, "hey...Maybe i'm at wrong."
*applaud* Brilliant...
don't you mean serpent?...aww jeeze...nevermind
Don't you mean dragon?
???
If you were in Gods shoes and one of your creation wants to take over and play as God himself...what would you do?
1. since i'm perfect i would laugh and create reality in such a way that it would be impossible.
2. I could allow it to be possible, punish the being for acting on its nature then damn it to hell for all eternity.
If I were a perfect creator, I would choose 1. That way I'm not an evil tyrant dictator.
Being a bit redunant aren't you? "Evil, tyrant, dictator."
perhaps
Anyhow, if you were perfect. You could pick anything you wanted and not be an "evil, tyrant, dictator", because it would logically be the perfect thing to do.
and i can think of a few "non perfect" ways to do it better.
(hint: my methods don't include creating people with a certain nature, allowing harm to come to them when they act on that nature, then damning them to hell for eternity.)
1. If it's non perfect, then it can't be better than perfection. Anyhow, you don't even know how the universe was created, or why: You're hardly in a situation to be passing judgement onto an omnipotent being.
2. He could either create him with free will(Which I'm assuming what you mean by "certain nature"), or he could create him as a robot, then there would be no point to existence.
Satan wasn't created with an evil nature, which you seem to be so stuck on: In fact it said he was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him.
Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
And who said he was going to be in hell for eternity?
=======
god is said to be omnipotent creator, therefore by definition there is nothing he can't do. however, you are not omnipotent. therefore, your analogy is false.
Are you purposefully being obtuse? I was giving an illustration of nature. The whole fact that he is omnipotent, and perfect, even goes to solidify my example further. The whole fact that he is completely perfect, the pinnacle of all that is good, makes it impossible for him to be sin. He could if he wanted, but he can't...It's really not all that abstract.
Just think about it, it really isn't that deep.
God is also very merciful and loving ( john 3:16) and rewards those loyal to him(whole book of Job). Yes, I will respect your beleifs if you think there is no God ,but just a warning your wrong.
prove it.
Which do you want him to prove?
I'd be happy if he at least showed evidence for any claims he's making. right now all he's doing is preaching.
If you dont beleive in Jesus as your saviour thhan you will go to hell(ya it's a real place).
no one's going to hell. It's not a real place.
Prove it.
i was playing tit-for-tat to make a point with the post. i'll make that more obvious from now on.
regardless...I'll prove my claim when he proves his. besides, i don't have enough time today to disprove a universal negative.
And why not beleive you got nothing to lose, you beleive in jesus live your life serving him then spend eternity in Heaven.
Unless you have the wrong god. then you spend your entire live believing and serving jesus and end up in hell anyway. Like you're going to do since the real god is the purple and green bunny rabit and you're not giving your 10%.
If there is no Jesus, then there would be no hell.
if there is no alcohol then there are no purple and green bunnies. (notice: I'm playing tit-for-tat to prove a point.)
And if you thing that the Bible s wrong get a clue if it's wrong why have so many historical facts in it been proved true.
please...name one.
Jesus.
There's no proof or evidence that Jesus ever existed.
If that's your belief: You must have a hard time swallowing the existence of any historical figures, places, or people.
i reject that notion that your bible holds any truth in this matter.besides, anyone can post bible versus:
Psalm 137:9Happy shall he be, who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock.
What do you base your foundation of morals on?
i base my morals on humanity and the avoidence of unnecessary harm.
You base your morals on humanity? How vague can you be. And the avoidance of unnecessary harm?
If a man is sexually aroused, and rapes a woman, in that mans eye he did necessary harm, does that mean he's right? And if he isn't, who's to say he's wrong?
God did not create evil he gave man free will to do things on his own and not act like a robot. Man chose to rebel and let sin enter their lives.
if god is the creator and didn't create evil. how could man have chose evil?
Unless you'd like to explain who the other creator is who created evil.
You're contradicting yourself again.
We all create evil. Everytime we trip, we fall, we create evil.
It's free will. Satan created evil in himself when he rebelled.
We create evil in ourselves. It's free will. Evil is what the antithesis of God is. Free will is the path of good or evil. God, or not God.
Following?
yea only it doesn't make any sense. Did god create the nature of our universe alone? Did he have someone there to help him? It seems you're claiming that satan and people have equal creation powers as god. so confusing and contradictory.
Not confusing at all. That's just what free will is. It's simple enough.
After Adam and Eve sinned inthe Graden of Eden sin entered the world , whiched caused natural disasters and other bad things to happen.
natural disaster happen for various reasons. all of which have nothing to do with a snake and a naked couple in a garden.
How do you know? Everything has that tap that starts the motion right? Positive or negative equal reaction?
We know why hurricanes, tsunamis and tornadoes happen. you can thank science for that one.
this is really a ridiculous point.
Not at all. Hurricanes, tsunamis, tornadeos, they happen because of an imperfect earth.
Lets give an example:
Pre Fall of Man. Perfect earth, perfect peoples, blah blah.
Man falls...throws nature all into chaos. Water warms up, ocean shelves collapse, you got tsunamis, hurricanes, all that bad stuff.
Reason why it's there? Cause some idiot ate the wrong fruit. It was the tap that set everything in motion. Now you can disbelieve that story all you want. But it's proof that everything, even something seen as small, can change the world.
If you were in Gods shoes and one of your creation wants to take over and play as God himself...what would you do?
If i was really so offended by someone trying to overthrow me, i would construct reality in such a way to make that impossible.
Then you remove free will from play, don't you?
free will is bunk anyway. if you agree that god is an omniscient/omnipotent creator then freewill cannot exist. for freewill to exist there would have to be a point of uncertainty...there's no uncertainty with an omniscient creator.
but, in the real world there's no need for terms like freewill...just people making everyday choices (i can prove that happens)
You're the one I argued this before, and you stated even without a God, there would be no free will, right?
If so, I see no point in rebutting against a stone.
God is not an evil tyrant ,
allowing a tsunami to kills hundreds of thousands....all i can say is actions speak louder than words.
What is that old saying in the Bible..."The wages of sin are death."
Don't expect God's protection while spitting in his face.
right, i'll tell litte Lakia who was ripped from her mothers arms when the tidal wave hit to quit spitting in god's face. Next time maybe she'll have the foresite to somehow tune in to Western media to learn how her and her entire family is worshipping the wrong god. Then maybe she'll afford the Big Mob Boss In The Sky's protection right?
I'm sure she'll have lots of time to think about that as she's inhaling saltwater and slowly suffocating to death. If she doesn't get a chance to do it as she's dying, maybe she can use the time when she's burning in hell for eternity.
absolutley sickining the way some people think.
1. Who said she's burning in hell for eternity? Who said she'll burn in hell even for one minute? You're just making assumptions here to try to further your case, when they have no backing at all.
2. It's the parents duty to protect the child, right?
and he has already defeated Satan , and it was not just an act of nature that made satan sin he had a mind to think just like we do. He chose to do what he wanted and had to face the consequences.
sorry, i don't belive in devils and demons, talking serpents, cud-chewing rabbits, speaking donkeys or any of the other stuff that's in the bible.
Cud-chewing rabbits? Can't say I remember that Bible story.
look it up, it's not hard to find. (think leviticus)
Just shows how arrogant you realy are.
i critically examine thing things people tell me. I don't just accept them blindly. If using your brain makes you arrogant, then maybe you have a point
Well, I've never heard of an arrogant vegetable...
whatever THAT means.
A vegetable...You know, someone that's brain dead, literally?
God did not create evil he gave his creations the gift of free will and instead of following there maker they rebelled and did things there own way creating sin.
Answer this question ---> if god is the creator and didn't create evil. how could man have chose evil? .
Because it's the opposite of God. In other words, rebelling against him=Evil.
nice..ready to answer the question now?
my question : if god is the creator and didn't create evil. how could man have chose evil?
your answer : because it's the opposite of god.
your answer makes no sense.
It makes perfect sense. Everything is in an equilibrium. Good to evil, love to hate, anger to peace, etc.
Things that are considered evil in the Bible: Why are they evil? Because it's against God.
God tells them not to do something, they do it, they're rebelling against God=Evil.
What is so hard to understand about this? Since God is what is good, because he is perfect and omnipotent, what is against his will, would be evil. Rebellion against God, in whatever form, happends because of free will, and hence, the rebellion becomes evil.
Satan is considered evil: Why? Because everything he does he knows is against the will of God.
Ya it is man.
prove it. (hint: proving it does not mean quoting a bible verse)
Prove you love your mother.
sure, that's an easy one. I call her a couple times a week to check on her. we go out to eat on occasions. i tell her i love her. i send her mothers day cards and flowers. anyone looking at that could reasonably conclude that i love my mother.
(note: i don't drown her in tidal waves for that would be unloving)
Words, material niceties, and showing attention proves your love? I've known quite a few people that do exactly that, and have a bitter resentment and dislike for the person, doing it for a type of tradition, and etiquette. And I know the exact opposite of people who say they truely love the person, and probably do, but don't have the time to do that.
Your idea of love is arbitrary, and words can be filled full of lies. That isn't proof, that's you just attempting to show proof. It's completely arbitrary. If you ran out of money, moved away to another state, and had no phone: Would that mean you no longer love your mother?
Christianity is unlike other beleifs because our God is mercuful and doesnt use violence to solve evrything, when was the last time the Christians had a holy war or some thing like that.
a slew of violence in the middle ages. this is not a winning argument for you.
Papacy ordained Inquisitions/Crusades were hardly the will of God.
now you claim to know the will of god?
did you know god sent bears to rip children apart because they called one of his beloved prophets "baldy".
with evil like that why are crusades so outlandish?
again, this is not a winning argument for you.
No...
2 Kings 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
Elijah did.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Could have you asked a more simple question?
The simple answer is no person was ever intended for Hell. It was created for the fallen angels. Of which there are no more than a few thousand. I could give you verse after verse, but I have a feeling this in not what you yet seek. No person was ever meant for Hell. So all people start out going to Heaven. As children we are bound to heaven and if when children pass on they go to heaven. The biblical proof of this is in the old testament.
As far as I know only 1 man in all of recorded history has beat death. He said a lot of things and I tend to believe them all. There is no other name, given among men, whereby you must be saved. Saved? You say? I take this matter of Christ to be history, it occured, and you can believe it. Much like you believe in Lincoln, the siege of Troy, or the sacking of Rome. Current people did not see these things yet all but the most convluted subscribe to them. I subscribe to the record that God gave of his Son. I can find no harm in doing so. I can only find harm in not doing so. All who read these word I type in this little box will one day find mortality. It will hit when you do not expect it, or you may have time to plan for it.
So are you going to Hell? Right now, no. If you die in a state that has you at odds with God, then yes. This is not what I say but what the book says. You know that 3500 year old book? The bible. If you want to hear what other people, people who have not beat death, then by all means read the Quran or another text. Hang your hat upon whatever you like. It is your free will.
But do know that if what is written in the Bible ends up being correct. Then you can only lose if you did not believe it. And by it I mean Christ - for that is what the Bible culminates and builds up to. Christ died for the sins of mankind and if you read the book of Hebrews(in the bible) they all stand forgiven. So what, if not sin, sends a person to Hell? Simple. They do not believe on the name of the Son of God.
This is not complicated and it is not hard. It is a mental decision to believe. Do it and I'll see you in eternity and we can hobnob on high. Do it not, and your fate is in your own hands.
nope. changing the definition of a word to make yourself look right is dishonest. this is exactly what you did. look up "sin" in multiple dictionaries, you'll see I'm right. (notice how an overwhelming majory include the supernatural)
here, i'll even get you started on your research:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&defl=en&q=define:sin
so much for me being assisnine.
well, as i said before i base my morality on humanity. so much for your murder, rape, stealing and baby-eating strawman.
false analogy.
repeat after me: people are not omnisicent like said creator.
so much for my vague and asinine baby-eating.
So, did god create everything?
depends on who you ask...
in the most ideal sense i think that if someone takes another life then they don't deserve to have theirs. but (thankfully) we have a judge/jury system for that so you and i don't decide.
actually, i'm playing devils advocate. i don't believe in a god or devils.... i'm simply using logic to shread your claims. way to miss the point.
(fyi: atheist means lack of belief in a gods)
i'm "passing judgement" on the idea that god is both omnipotent/omniscient and just. I've clearly shown he's not. of course i don't know how it all came to be...no one does and either do you...you just have a belief that tells you goddidit.
if said creator is real and omnisscient he would have constructed reality and know all future outcomes (he'd know it because he's omniscient).
in other words... back when the earth was forming, he'd know that this morning i would choose to eat pancakes instead of waffles. i chose pancakes, to choose waffles would go against god's knowledge and render him not omniscient.
welcome to the predeterminded world of the all-knowing.
Ok then, where did evil come from then?
this contradicts your previous statment "satan wasn't created with an evil nature"....if he didn't have an evil nature how in the world could "iniquity be found in him"?? wow, are you thinking through these claims before you write them?
=======
if you want to make an analogy then please make it actually analogous to the discussion. i'm not being obtuse i'm simply pointing out flaws in your reasoning. now, do you have an analogy that fits better? because that one sucked.
he could but he can't. I'll flip a coin to see if i understand...the coin fell on both heads and tails. I wish i could see my keyboard but the light is both on and off. I need some air so I'll go outside yet i'm still inside.
do you now see the problem of absolute claims? if you give god absolute attributes they must stay absolute...you can't say that god is omnipotent then say he can't do something because then you're contradicting yourself.
i hope it's clear now.
i thought about it and it made absolutley no sense whatsoever.
god is either omniscient and knows all or he's not.
god is either omnipotent and is all powerfull or he's not..
again, see the problem with absolute claims?
don't try to pass god off as omnipotent then tell me he can't do something...don't try to pass god off as omniscient then tell me he allows for freewill to occur...don't make absolute claims then say there's an exception because then your claim is no longer absolute.
see?
not at all. most historical figures aren't said to have supernatural powers or do anything outrageous like rise from the dead. also, we have letters, and documented evidence of many historical figures.
it's wrong to rape because it causes unnecessary harm to the victim and violates her rights. i don't need an Invisible Sky Boss to tell me that.
i say he's wrong because that's what i base my morality on. i base my morality on that because i know living things seek to avoid harm. this isn't a very hard concept to understand.
sorry, it's confusing to those of us who actually think through these things. I'm sure it's easy for those who accustom to believing what their told to believe...after all, what isn't why you take it on faith?
^ this is all naked assertions. non provable..its just an expression of your belief.
Here's why they really happen (no fruit or falling men necessary and it doesn't require my belief. it's true whether i choose to believe it or not.)
tsunamis
hurricanes
tornados
freewill is naturally removed since I'm endowed with the gift of omniscience. I know all outcomes right now. I know how every choice that everyone is going to make plays out and it must happen exactley that way. If there were any point of uncertainty (i.e., you chose to turn left after i knew you would turn right) then that would prove me NOT omniscient.
see now?
if it appears im a stone then its because what i'm saying is factually correct. if you disagree with it feel free to refute my claims anytime. so far you're only preaching what you believe which frankly i don't find very interesting.
dunno, i thought that was the consequence for not believing in jesus. you're not going to try and say that you can get into heaven w/out accepting jesus are you?
i agree. however this is hard to do when you have a 20' wall of water unexpectantly hit you from out of nowhere.
what a horrible horrible act of evil to have the ability to stop something as horrific as what happened yet refuse to do so.
that is what I consider evil.
how do you know what they truly feel? you only know what people feel by what they say and by their actions.
lol. like it could be anything else.
you're wrong. read it again (pay especially close attention to the part i bolded). Then think through your conclusion (hint: where does elijah get his powers).
===========
This thing with you posting your beliefs and me pointing out the contradictions has been amusing but now it's getting sorta tedious.
maybe you'd like to debate something now?
==========================
Freethinker is my hero.
His logic brought a tear to my eye.
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Psalm 137:9
Happy shall he be, who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock.
It is my assumption that you are using this verse out of its historical context to promote ill feelings toward Scripture and those who follow God or because you wish to look no further than face value. If I'm incorrect then I apologize. But whether or not the psalmist here was a man of God, you also have to look at what the times were like.
Zedekiah (originally Mattaniah - renamed by Nebachudnezzar) was one of the more worse kings that Jerusalem had had. To paraphrase scripture, he did what was evil in God's sight. He also rebelled against Babylon by joining with the Egyptians as he was instructed not to do. So Nebachudnezzar sent some of his generals to siege Jerusalem. The siege lasted for quite a while. The way Nebachudnezzar won Jerusalem through his generals was by weakening it with a famine. In the end perseverence payed off for him. Famines can be very ugly events. In one passage of scripture I remember a woman who eats her own child because of a famine.
At any rate, the Babylonians set fire to the temple which was a further slap in the face to the people living during Zedekiah's reign. No doubt the Jews must have been both devastated and ticked off at this point. Zedekiah himself was captured upon escaping the siege and his sons (his children mind you) and friends were ordered killed by Nebachudnezzar. Babylon, though, took most of the Jews captives rather than killing them. Some say that Babylon exploited the non-Babylonian captives/inhabitants to be used for the benefit of the ruling class. This, coupled with Nebachudnezzar's outrage at Zedekiah, would seem to point to a situation of slavery in which the Jews were placed. This would be one good reason, from a practical standpoint to them, not to kill off the Jews and their children.
Anyway, after this all, a person (I assume a captive currently in Babylon because of verse 1) sings a song of lament after seeing this complete desolation. Do you not think that some Jewish children had died in the famine as well? That in their minds would be, given the rule for an eye for an eye, probable cause to kill the Babylonian children as well. I think that the destruction of Babylon had already been prophesied about beforehand. If the psalmist knew about this, then he could have been wishing it to come quickly now - for them to defeat their enemies and to repay the deeds of Babylon. However, I'm not arguing for the Jewish people under Zedekiah's reign. I'm just presenting their probable perspective. Afterall, God was angry with them and allowed their destruction to come because his people (at least one of them and the greatest of them all - the king) had turned away from him. When a leader of a group practices sin, the group who follows usually follows in sin.
prove it. (hint: proving it does not mean quoting a bible verse)
Indeed so. In science (any field of science that I know of) you cannot prove the validity of something by its own testimony.
On a side note, I'll give one possible example why I think having faith in God is important.
The words you see me write are arbitrary symbols for my own thoughts and ideas. When I write these words, you should believe that I exist because of the words (symbols/objects) you see me creating through the use of the internet. The words themselves are meaningless unless meaning has been given to them (which constitutes a language). I create the words (symbols/objects) and they portray a message to you of 1. my existence and 2. my power to create such symbols and objects (by use of a keyboard). Of themselves they are only objects - a foreigner or one not taught a language would not know what the heck all of these characters or objects are or even if they are of any significance.
When God spoke in Genesis I believe his words were the planets and the stars. They were objects just like my words are to you. Afterall, who says that God created the universe by speaking English, French, Hebrew, Korean or whatever other language quite possibly not in existence during that time? His words convey a similar message that mine do; that he has the power to create them and that he exists because we see his words in existence to this day when he had at once written them down in the heavens long ago.
God's words, I think, are more than just verbal. When Christ is referred to as God's Word (John 1:1-7), it means just that. God spoke through Christ; not merely verbally but with actions. I think it was Christ who said that he only says what his Father in Heaven tells him to say.
It is my belief that God is telling us that he exists by creating the universe. If we do not believe him, then we are calling him a liar - or just as worse, a lie. Perhaps God didn't speak English in order to create the universe; maybe he just spoke a universal language that we could all understand.
Sorry for any errors in the post. I have to get going now. I'll revise it later perhaps.
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7 pages in and the posts are getting too long and confusing to be worth reading. Everyone has their own opinions and beliefs, this thread has been debated to hell and back (Metaphor and Irony, meh) the OPs question was answered...quite some time ago. This has now turned into a flame war (A level 2 out of 5 one, it's getting pointless, but it hasn't turned into a capslock fiesta yet)
This topic should have been left to rest, no offesne freethinker, you possess a great logical mind but most topics, espicially ones like this, should usually be left forgotten when dead for 10 days.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
look up "sin" in multiple dictionaries, you'll see I'm right. (notice how an overwhelming majory include the supernatural
I looked in three dictionaries and they all included definitions of transgressions against both religious and moral law. I pretty much think that both moral and religious go hand-in-hand in many instances. But as the dictionaries give examples of sin's usage as being outside of a divine law, we can assume that moral means something different than religious to many people (because people's morals differ from one person to the other based on past experiences and prejudices/biases). Sinning against the State is sometimes different than sinning against God though. To worship false gods is a sin against the God, but not the State. To commit murder is often a sin against both the (hopefully) State and God. To flick boogers into the wind may be a sin against the State, but not against God, see?
well, as i said before i base my morality on humanity.
Not exactly sure what that means, myself. I think it means that you base your morality on what most humans view as right/wrong or else what has worked in the past and what did not. Personally, I base my morals on what most upholds God's creation - the fulfillment and bettering of life in general. Example: A person who murders is worth less to me than a person who does not murder since murdering (the killing of a being of equal or greater quality or potential without an appropriate reason) is less beneficial to humanity and to creation than not murdering.
That of course is simply a template of one instance. Very rarely are there such easily distinguished examples in reality.
i'm "passing judgement" on the idea that god is both omnipotent/omniscient and just. I've clearly shown he's not.
Which brings to mind another concern. If God is not omnipotent, omniscient and just (by our standards) that still does not mean that he does not exist. To me, though, it seems like a Creator would not want to instinctively harm his creation. How many of you, after building a model airplane, see that it is good and then have someone bump into it, scratching it, and then you decide to smash it to pieces? Even though sin is in this world by the very definition of the word (an offense against divine or moral - see my disambiguation of morals above - law), it is a very beautiful world still.
Oh, and I suppose I'll have to go back over your other posts to see where you've shown that he is not omnipotent, omniscient and just. By the way, pointing to passages in Scripture which seemingly portray God as a transient being without a plan (ommitted "or clue" - because if he does seem incompetent, then I think we can judge for ourselves what is likely truth) do not hold up in my mind. Since God has chosen to create this universe in a dimension of time (theoretically time as a dimension), he has a plan but has also chosen to interact with it on the basis of time. Example: God, at least to my knowledge, hasn't looked ahead to the future ever and said, "You're going to sin in ten years from now so I'm going to punish you right now." I think he's more likely to know that we are going to sin later on in our lives and then punish/discipline us when we do it - which is a planned conditional action based on an amount of passing time. This doesn't mean that God does not know what we are going to do or is not prepared with a plan, but rather reacts in accord with a time-based creation.
Also, a group of fallible beings judging a supposedly infallible God is a moot judgement. If the God is perfect and we are fallible, then wouldn't our own viewpoints on justice be slanted? I think the major concern is whether or not God is a human invention - which would then make him susceptible to error. What we're trying to find, though, is whether or not God has any error in him to show that he may be a human invention. That then makes a complete circle back to the case of imperfection judging possible perfection. I think the only matter one may decide in this case, after ample research into God's motives, is whether or not one wishes to follow him based on those motives. Often is the case though that we misjudge his motives.
natural disaster happen for various reasons. all of which have nothing to do with a snake and a naked couple in a garden
I think there is a reason why Adam (meaning Man or The Man) and Eve (I think means Living) lived in that specific garden. It may have been unlike any other place in the world at this time. God expelled them from this place so they had to live away from direct contact with him (outside of his protection for the most part) in the other less hospitable places of the world. Some Scripture differs on the way it is read, but how it differs here is vital in proving or disproving my theory. The translation I'm working with reads, "Cursed is the ground for your sake." That appears to me to mean that God had left the rest of the world to disarray in anticipation of this sin (ie. "The ground is cursed for your sake." - indicating past tense).
The other translation that I know of reads, "Cursed is the ground because of you," which means to me that God had cursed the ground for this special occasion - again, taking things in stride as time permits his interaction with four-dimensional creatures. This passage does not indicate a cursing before time, but could still be read (less likely than the first passage) to mean that.
When the sin came, only then were humans expelled from a state of paradise to live in the rest of the world. Thus outside of God's perfection, we indeed did die.
And just because places in the world are inhospitable does not mean that they are not also good. Very, very few things can survive in space (solely of their selves) for any length of time, but it is still a beautiful and mysterious place - or rather sum of all places that has enriched and given hope to humanity.
Also, I believe Aldaron's analogy is a sound one. Though we are not omnipotent, we were created in his image - to be somewhat like him. Since we were created in his image, we can learn a little about him by looking at ourselves. Now knowing that we do have similarities with him, we also know that we have power to affect the world around us. We have the potential to use our power for evil, but hopefully most of us restrain ourselves from doing evil. This is not a limitation to power but rather a choice to restrain from its improper use. I think Aldaron is saying that God probably has potential omnipotence, but because of his own will he chooses not to exercise his powers in certain ways - therefore he is capable of whatever he wishes to do, but he wishes not to follow a certain course of action. There is power and then there is action. This comes from the very basic understanding of potential and kinetic energy; energy in rest or energy in motion. But the ability is there, and the ability to influence something is also power.
PS. I have corrected what I believe to be an error on my part. It is highlighted in yellow and the error is explained.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
And did God create everything? I'd say no...
I agree at the moment. I mean, God can create the world, but he doesn't appear to have created the river that formed in the landscape of the world by precipitation and overflow. He may have indirectly, but that is different than directly creating/influencing something. If he is omniscient then he could have clearly seen it happening, but then again he did not stop to create the stars knowing that people would worship them. He created beauty and restrained not his power (to my knowledge) just because some of us might make the wrong decision, being seduced by beauty to make an evil decision. He does what he wants and when he wants with his own creation. It's up to us to do what is right and not place the blame on him for our own actions which were the direct influence.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
He would have constructed reality for what? So we couldn't stumble, so we couldn't fall? Yah...Just remove free will from the picture.
I think what Freethinker is saying is that if God is both omniscient and omnipotent, then he could have found infinitely many ways (or at least more than one) of maintaining free will and still having a perfect universe/world. At least that's what I gather that your concern is, Freethinker. Correct me if I am wrong.
Well, that may be possible, but I think the best way to go about it was to present us with a choice. In my opinion, there can be many ways to go about something, but there can also be only one way that is the best. We can see this by looking at this universe; there can be multiple or even infinite beings throughout eternity, but there is only one who is prime and from which all others derive their existence. God wants those who will worship him in spirit and in truth (John 4:23). If God constructed reality in such a way that we still had free will but did not have to use it (thus it being effectively useless) we would worship him automatically. There had to first be free will and then there had to be its application for the followers of God to choose to worship him no matter their situation in life. Those who worship God no matter what happens are true worshipers in my opinion. As a side note, those who do good no matter what life they are made to live are also truly good.
I believe the worship of God in spirit and in truth is something different than liturgy or required praise. It is understanding that God is deserving of this praise first of all and then making the choice to worship him of your own accord. That, at least in part, is what I believe John 4:23 is saying.
What I think is the second part of this statement is that it does not matter where you worship God just as long as you worship him in spirit (because in John 4:19-24 a Samaritan woman is concerned as to where she is to worship God - Christ tells her basically that it doesn't matter where you worship him just as long as you truly do so). You can go to a cathedral and worship him there, but that doesn't matter just as long as you gather with other Christians (if you can) and worship him. It is realizing that there is a greater truth than going inside a church building and singing a few songs. It is the meditation on the words in those songs, participating or not participating in communion with a worthy spirit (not just as liturgy), and knowing that it wouldn't matter where you met or where you worshiped God just as long as you do and that you choose to do so because you think it is the right thing (ie. the shaking off of all liturgical or heartless constraints that were taken as granted as a child and once overlooked).
To further elaborate on my understanding (or lack thereof) of this passage, since God is spirit (John 4:24) he does not desire others to worship images of him (idols) but to worship him for who he really is - not to worship his shadow but his personality (his spirit - all that he is). If people worshiped God just because he was beautiful in appearance, they would also likely worship Satan who is also beautiful in appearance. But worshiping him in spirit requires that we worship him for who he really is. And that includes physical beauty as seen by the eyes, intellectual beauty as seen by the mind, and beauty as seen by the heart.
I also do not believe that God would create a reality in which free will was not given to those with whom he wanted a relationship. Nor do I believe that he would create free will and not allow its application. To have a true and meaningful relationship with God, you must have free will and you must choose of your own free will to accept God or to reject him and when you will or will not speak with him, walk with him, etc.
Also on the point of the fear of the Lord being the beginning of wisdom... The fear of the Lord is only the beginning of wisdom. It does not mean that you are wise to fear God. If you are so wise, then you would know that there is nothing to fear of God if you live a life according to his will. The fear of God comes either from the ignorance of his nature or from the realization that you have done something contrary to his will. To simply fear him is not wisdom in itself.
But fearing him should cause you to act on that fear and to learn about him and to grow in a relationship with him. And in growing in a relationship with him you discover truth (2 Timothy 2:15) which brings understanding. By understanding we are made wise. This is seen in our own lives, to the one who wishes to defend their beliefs, they must research them. Upon researching them, they gain knowledge. The meditation on knowledge leads to understanding and by understanding we acquire wisdom. So the fear of the Lord is one path to wisdom, but I believe it to be one of the best paths, for nothing else prompts us so much to act as discomfort in our lives.
And here is a passage of advice for Christians in debates (but that all can learn from): 2 Timothy 2:24-26 I am aware that my posts are rather lengthy and that it takes more than a few minutes to read them, but that is because it often takes more than a few minutes to write them.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
No reason to be atheist/agnostic? I'll give you two. 1) Although its not a requirement to go to church/mass for christians the majority of them do and look down upon not attending. When I was younger I went to church 2 hours every Sunday, because my parents forced me to thinking it would instill good morals in me (not to say that it doesn't or won't, but I believe there are better methods). Thats 104 hours a year minimum (not counting the odd wed's and such we went, nor the extended services for holidays) that is wasted (in an athiests/agnostics eyes) practicing and observing a religion that they don't believe in, hours better spent feeding the poor or inventing a cure for cancer (a number of things could happen).
2) The Moral repercussions. Although some religious people may not view athiests/agnostic as morally upright athiests/agnostic people are not without morals and many of them believe in human rights and peace just like any other moral abiding citizen. If an athiest/agnostic believes in the well being of all morally upright law abiding people yet the bible says that denying the existence of god (questioning the existence of god falls under this as well) as "blasphemy" and those who do shall be sent to eternal damnation and punished eternally, then why would an athiest/agnostic want to have christian faith? What about the animal activist athiests/agnostics? The bible says that all animals are simply tools of man and they are without souls... if that is true then christians believe they should be used just like any other tool, and Im sure animal activists doesnt appreciate Bob the Cowboy tying a rope around a bulls balls then around his neck just to ride him for a couple of seconds for the "thrill" of it. Not to mention the moral consequences to the passifist athiest/agnostics of believing in a god who killed a mans family destroyed his home and burned his crops just to test his faith.
If god is omnipotent and omniscient then god created and sees all, whether directly or indirectly (e.g. god creates man who cures cancer, god didn't directly cure cancer but he created the man who cured cancer so thus god created the cure for cancer indirectly). So whether indirectly or directly god created everything in the universe, including things viewed as good and evil by man. So to believe that god can't do something is contradicting your belief, its not that god cant its that god choose not to. Afterall god is omniscient so god sees what is happening and acts upon it. If god loves all his creatures and creations that means god tries to protect them all the same (which would explain the vengfulness). To have thousands of years of a vengeful god killing humans (for possibly tampering with his other creations that he didnt see fit) and then believing it all goes away with the death of gods son (who was resurrected anyway) seems like an easy way out for believers. "Believe that Jesus died for your sins and you shall be forgiven forever"? Seems rather biased for a god who treats all of gods creations equally.
I see all the time in the bible that god killed but it is never explained how god killed, its just why god did it and to who. If there is a god, god is still as vengeful as god was in the old testament, people die everyday from all sorts of things and we all know we tamper with the earth far more then anyone did thousands of years ago. The problem with humans is they see themselves as the greatest beings on earth and everything else inferior, how do you know god sees it the same way? Perhaps god kills many people in tsunamis and tornados because they tampered with gods creations in a way god didnt see fit, or they were going to tamper with gods creations so god stopped it before it began. While it may look cruel and unjust to humans and something a kind loving god wouldnt do, in gods view god may be saving several animals or plants or perhaps several hundreds of thousands of other people. What god sees as good and evil may not be what man sees as good an evil, afterall god created us in gods image (but exactly what image of god was that?) How do we know that god didnt create other things in his image, only a different part of his image? Ill let you think about that
And onto the subject of freewill and destiny, both have their merits and dismerits. I believe the most universal language to be pictures and images, while every languge has a different word for the color red, everyone will know it is just by looking at it. This is exactly how our minds work, we see an image or picture and then match a word to it and speak it. Perhaps this is how a god would talk to us, by relaying pictures and images to you. Maybe those "gut" feelings you get and those strong inhibitions to do one thing over another is really god telling you to do something, or just a part of his omniscient and omnipotent plan, that benefits his creations the most... in other words our destinies. Or perhaps god is omniscient only by what god chooses to see, perhaps he can see all outcomes but focuses on what god sees fit for god the most. Afterall, a creator is still bound to the rules of his creation when using it... just because a man makes a trampoline does not mean he won't fall through the elastic while jumping. God may have a plan but it may not be the only plan there is, and this is where freewill comes in. All creatures choose what they wish to do by their own conciousness and decisions, and perhas if god doesn't like what is chosen or it effects gods creations god may choose to kill whatever disrupts gods plan or bring disfortune upon anything god chooses.
Afterall, if god is omnipowerful and omniscent then god can do as god pleases within the binds of gods own creation. But that by no means makes him all loving and kind to human standards.
-Shojin
Just on the border of your waking mind
There lies another time
Where darkness and light are one,
And as you tread the halls of sanity,
You feel so glad to be unable to go beyond.
I have a message from another time...
Axis Eleven