The sad part is that to provide enough meaningful reasons for people to subscribe you in essence create a pay to win scenario which sucks for everyone, except those paying.
Or you go the SWTOR route and make the base FTP game so punitive and restricted that players have to subscribe in order to enjoy a baseline MMO experience.
I think this has backfired with SWTOR, essentially driving away tons of players who would otherwise stick around if the FTP model were more enjoyable. But SWTOR these days is just milking the Star Wars hardcore who are willing to both subscribe AND spend a bunch of money in the cash shop.
As a whole ESO will be bringing in more money with this move. Right now a console subscription is in the same place that EQ was back in 1999, scrubs (I mean kids) will be asking their parents for their credit cards to subscribe up to the game, the parents will be asking what does that mean? Some will, some won't. Overall this will help pave the way for subscriptions down the road for the next MMOs that come after ESO.
While I am a P2P person at heart. I believe this is a good hybrid model and I would be willing to endorse it to see how it goes.
Going to plummet? They already? But for a different reason. The game is already a ghost town in most areas.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
Originally posted by Viper482 Already canceled, haven't logged in since the announcement.
You realize you just canceled a subscription to a game you were paying for that will not change, despite going B2P? So basically, your bold statement is saying. There's really no reason for me to cancel my subscription because the game itself isn't changing, but I know I'll actually be getting more for my money once it goes B2P, so I'm quitting.
Irony at it's finest.
Every game that went from P2P to F2P turned crap, with hardly to no actual content being released into the game. Just full focus on cash grabbing with the Cash Shop and continious flow of new items in it.
Not to mention that pretty much every single one of them has these stupid gamble boxes!
Originally posted by FuryV Nice & depressing article, well done.
Why would it be depressing? He's not saying the population is going to plummet, just the subs. As a matter of fact, while subs plummet, population is going to get quite a boost from both, former players returning now and then and new purchases from people who are now interested due to the removal of the sub requirement.
The article is just about whether there are enough incentives to sub once we can continue to play the same game we've been playing without subbing and zero penalties for not being subbed.
Don't let the reading comprehension challenged trolls in this thread get to you. The population is going up, not down... subs are a whole different matter.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I don't remember us having an article like this when Secret World went B2P, Rift went B2P, in fact when any other title went B2P. And I do not see any sign that content updates in ESO will be slower than those games.
So are ESO subs going to plummet? Possibly if gaming journalists keep writing scaremongering articles like this one.
Every game that went from P2P to F2P turned crap, with hardly to no actual content being released into the game. Just full focus on cash grabbing with the Cash Shop and continious flow of new items in it.
Not to mention that pretty much every single one of them has these stupid gamble boxes!
Could whatever they end up doing ruin the game? Maybe. Push the sub message and consale sales will probably be less; push the cash shop side and that could harm the PC side but - and it is a big but:
THSI IS ALL ABOUT THE CONSOLE LAUNCH
If - IF - they get it right there is no reason why TESO should not be "healthier". And it is an if because I think we can assume that they decided that they didn't get it right when they launched last year. (And the mmorpg.com interview at the time suggested there was doubt.)
How? Fast and crude example keeping the numbers simple:
Assume the developer gets about $30 per copy of a $60 game. A lot less (low 20%s) on retail but getting on for 70% for online via the developer's site. There are taxes (say 20%), transaction fees (visa say), the retailer takes a cut, distribution, production; licence fee to Microsoft or Sony. Depends on online / retail split as well but analysts have used 50% for other games. It is, imo, close enough for this example.
Assume a developer gets about $10 from a $15 sub - again there are taxes, multi-month discount, tax in some countries. $10 keeps the numbers simple.
Say 50% of purchasers subscribe for months 2, 3, and 4 after launch (on the high side but again simple and offsets the $10 sub number being on the low side) and 25% subscribe for months 5, 6, and 7.
So if a subscription game sells 1M copies then after 7 months the developer has recouped 1.75M x $30. Or the equivalent of 1.75M copies sold. Which means that if they launch as B2P they need to sell twice as many copies.
And yes there are subs after month 7 with a sub option but with a B2P game there is a DLC option. And you have to assume that you will sell at least as many DLC packs as you will sell subscription. And hopefully more depending on the price.
Zenimax will have the accurate numbers and a much more detailed "financial model". They are not ridiculous numbers but my intent is simply to show Zenimax could make more money without a sub. And why not having a sub automatically "the end."
A DLC model does impose restrictions on Zenimax. No content holidays if they want DLC moniey. And they cannot release something, decide they got it wrong and then expect people to pay for the fix. Whether it is levelling xp / crafting / provisioning / auction house system or whatever. Would you buy CS part 1 and then CS part 2 and then .... or wait till there is a total package. Would you buy CS at all or take the view that is "part of the game" not content?
In closing though this is not equivalent to e.g. SWTOR it is about Zenimax reworking the numbers for the console launch.
Playing TESO + Paying $15 per month for added bonus = bad value
When the company is extorting the customer for access to their character, this is considered a good value. When the company allows access to the character for free, but sells additional bonus while using the character, this is considered a bad value.
Just think about it.
Considering that even WoW has an in-game cash shop...I agree, the whole f2p/ p2p debate is mostly moot at this point. As long as it isn't exclusive pay-to-win, then I don't see the problem. That said... "Tamriel Unlimited"? Sounds so corny and generic. Also makes you wonder why the change. Anybody ever thought maybe Elder Scrolls 6 will have an online component, lest the reason for preserving the "Elder Scrolls Online" as a title. Very interesting indeed. Now that the game is going f2p, I guess I'll have to log back in and see what's going on.
I really don't see the point to this article . Its common sense they will plummet . Partly the reason I go to Massively more these days . mmorpg.com is more of like a tabloid than a proper gaming news site these days . Some articles even seem like trolling and probably if someone wrote similar in the forums they would get the thread locked and a warning .
Did someone new take over running this site a few years ago ? It didn't use to seem this bad .
I really don't see the point to this article . Its common sense they will plummet . Partly the reason I go to Massively more these days . mmorpg.com is more of like a tabloid than a proper gaming news site these days . Some articles even seem like trolling and probably if someone wrote similar in the forums they would get the thread locked and a warning .
Did someone new take over running this site a few years ago ? It didn't use to seem this bad .
You get that subs will drop now that they're no longer required but that this means nothing with respect to number of players playing it. I also get it.
But judging from the majority of the replies to this article, I think they're aiming their articles at the majority who think comen scents is a cologne.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I really don't see the point to this article . Its common sense they will plummet . Partly the reason I go to Massively more these days . mmorpg.com is more of like a tabloid than a proper gaming news site these days . Some articles even seem like trolling and probably if someone wrote similar in the forums they would get the thread locked and a warning .
Did someone new take over running this site a few years ago ? It didn't use to seem this bad .
You get that subs will drop now that they're no longer required but that this means nothing with respect to number of players playing it. I also get it.
But judging from the majority of the replies to this article, I think they're aiming their articles at the majority who think comen scents is a cologne.
It must be really lacking in the majority of the gaming community lol
Subs are overrated. I do prefer mmo games become b2p (like GW2 and TSW), it's so much more rewarding, than having to pay avery month to keep playing...It's actually ridiculous, it's so much better pay a retail price ($49-$59) and OWN the game, than keep paying to be allowed to play.
GW2 is a very nice example that you can make a decent game without a subscription model.
I knew this would happen and I know why it has. I'll explain to you why, Firstly I don't know why people say they have added a lot. For a AAA MMO with a 250 Mil budget with a subscription model to keep things going they have not added in very much at all. All that has been done so far is a few new zones, new mechanics, fixes, armor, dyes and new class features. This stuff is nothing compared to what other studios have done in this amount of time. Hell I've seen indie developers add more in their games then this. It's been way over a year and they still have been stuttering their feet along with the production process and they STILL have not completed the Blureprint for the original game yet! Which I know from my own experience with FallenEarth as a 3d modeler and artist, is a really really bad decision on there part because that should have been one of the first things to work on and finnish to get out the door, before adding in any new zones or raid like content.
They should have had the rest of the factions in by now. IE The Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves guild. No, and's, buts or maybes they should be all in and working. Hell even Skyrim, Obvlivion, Morrowind had all the factions in when Bethesda released there games. As much as people say they have added things like "Chat Bubbles" and other things. None of these things make players come back to the game because none of these things are that great. I was laughing when they mentioned they were adding chat bubbles... I mean "Chat bubbles? Are you serious? LOL This was something that was done in WoW almost 10 years ago.. all these things should have already been in the game in the first place. Who cares about chat bubbles when the rest of the game is still not even finnished?
Zenimax is completely indept to run the Elderscrolls Title. Bethesda would of done a 10x better job because they are more familiar with the IP. I not only wish this game was never made but I also wish Zenimax never developed it.. They even used The Hero and Havok Engine which is one of the worst choices as game engines go for a game that is suppose to be a sandbox. All along they have made terrible design decisions from day one that are the worst I have ever seen for a AAA title. I thought SOE and EA were bad at this kind of thing.
But Zenimax have lied on occasion and they have been making statements they should not be making to the fans of this game in PR releases and forums. They should be honest and just tell people the game is not fininished and they will release patches/updates as they finnish them. Instead of making promises they cant keep. They also said in PR release the game would never go free to play or buy to play. Whatever same thing because they both have cash shops anyways. I KNEW the second I heard that they would be going back on their word and I was right all along.
B2P doesn't mean anything. It just means the game will have microtransactions like every other boring MMO on steam.
I have to agree with the OP. My sub ran out today and I have no intention of renewing, Ever. Not going to buy anything from the CS and most likely won't log in again. Just me though. Most likely eso will adjust the gold, XP, Crafting xp gained so that 10% bonus will get you what you have now and not really anything extra. Zeni already stated that PC and Consoles will be receiving patches and DLC at the same time.
If your a PC only player, the waiting is going to be far longer between new content and even fixes. It's much more expensive and time consuming to test anything for a console. PC players are going to be 2nd class citizens starting March 17. Actually we were from the start, since we basically paid to beta the game for consoles. When they realize that they aren't making enough money from the store you will start seeing items popping up in the store that some will consider P2W, more nag screens, or things placed behind pay walls. Just look at Rift and Lotro for what they have now compared to what they started with.
No thanks Zeni.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
Comments
Or you go the SWTOR route and make the base FTP game so punitive and restricted that players have to subscribe in order to enjoy a baseline MMO experience.
I think this has backfired with SWTOR, essentially driving away tons of players who would otherwise stick around if the FTP model were more enjoyable. But SWTOR these days is just milking the Star Wars hardcore who are willing to both subscribe AND spend a bunch of money in the cash shop.
As a whole ESO will be bringing in more money with this move. Right now a console subscription is in the same place that EQ was back in 1999, scrubs (I mean kids) will be asking their parents for their credit cards to subscribe up to the game, the parents will be asking what does that mean? Some will, some won't. Overall this will help pave the way for subscriptions down the road for the next MMOs that come after ESO.
While I am a P2P person at heart. I believe this is a good hybrid model and I would be willing to endorse it to see how it goes.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
Every game that went from P2P to F2P turned crap, with hardly to no actual content being released into the game. Just full focus on cash grabbing with the Cash Shop and continious flow of new items in it.
Not to mention that pretty much every single one of them has these stupid gamble boxes!
Thanks but no thanks.
When do you anderstand than it's one RolePlay Game before all....
For many persons, all these add-ons are pretty, for the real fans of the erder scrolls's serie.
If you don't like this game...don't play it... don't be worry the ES communauty is relativity big for assure the ESO success..
Why would it be depressing? He's not saying the population is going to plummet, just the subs. As a matter of fact, while subs plummet, population is going to get quite a boost from both, former players returning now and then and new purchases from people who are now interested due to the removal of the sub requirement.
The article is just about whether there are enough incentives to sub once we can continue to play the same game we've been playing without subbing and zero penalties for not being subbed.
Don't let the reading comprehension challenged trolls in this thread get to you. The population is going up, not down... subs are a whole different matter.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I don't remember us having an article like this when Secret World went B2P, Rift went B2P, in fact when any other title went B2P. And I do not see any sign that content updates in ESO will be slower than those games.
So are ESO subs going to plummet? Possibly if gaming journalists keep writing scaremongering articles like this one.
Could whatever they end up doing ruin the game? Maybe. Push the sub message and consale sales will probably be less; push the cash shop side and that could harm the PC side but - and it is a big but:
Considering that even WoW has an in-game cash shop...I agree, the whole f2p/ p2p debate is mostly moot at this point. As long as it isn't exclusive pay-to-win, then I don't see the problem. That said... "Tamriel Unlimited"? Sounds so corny and generic. Also makes you wonder why the change. Anybody ever thought maybe Elder Scrolls 6 will have an online component, lest the reason for preserving the "Elder Scrolls Online" as a title. Very interesting indeed. Now that the game is going f2p, I guess I'll have to log back in and see what's going on.
I will let my sub drop and leave it at that untill 1.7
Then decide what to do next.
Simply no reason to pay 15$ for no content.
I really don't see the point to this article . Its common sense they will plummet . Partly the reason I go to Massively more these days . mmorpg.com is more of like a tabloid than a proper gaming news site these days . Some articles even seem like trolling and probably if someone wrote similar in the forums they would get the thread locked and a warning .
Did someone new take over running this site a few years ago ? It didn't use to seem this bad .
You get that subs will drop now that they're no longer required but that this means nothing with respect to number of players playing it. I also get it.
But judging from the majority of the replies to this article, I think they're aiming their articles at the majority who think comen scents is a cologne.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
It must be really lacking in the majority of the gaming community lol
Subs are overrated. I do prefer mmo games become b2p (like GW2 and TSW), it's so much more rewarding, than having to pay avery month to keep playing...It's actually ridiculous, it's so much better pay a retail price ($49-$59) and OWN the game, than keep paying to be allowed to play.
GW2 is a very nice example that you can make a decent game without a subscription model.
Just make a real price subs, like 5 bucks/month .... They had being milking ous for a long time
15 bucks for no real contents = mass leave ,etc
that or B2P
I knew this would happen and I know why it has. I'll explain to you why, Firstly I don't know why people say they have added a lot. For a AAA MMO with a 250 Mil budget with a subscription model to keep things going they have not added in very much at all. All that has been done so far is a few new zones, new mechanics, fixes, armor, dyes and new class features. This stuff is nothing compared to what other studios have done in this amount of time. Hell I've seen indie developers add more in their games then this. It's been way over a year and they still have been stuttering their feet along with the production process and they STILL have not completed the Blureprint for the original game yet! Which I know from my own experience with FallenEarth as a 3d modeler and artist, is a really really bad decision on there part because that should have been one of the first things to work on and finnish to get out the door, before adding in any new zones or raid like content.
They should have had the rest of the factions in by now. IE The Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves guild. No, and's, buts or maybes they should be all in and working. Hell even Skyrim, Obvlivion, Morrowind had all the factions in when Bethesda released there games. As much as people say they have added things like "Chat Bubbles" and other things. None of these things make players come back to the game because none of these things are that great. I was laughing when they mentioned they were adding chat bubbles... I mean "Chat bubbles? Are you serious? LOL This was something that was done in WoW almost 10 years ago.. all these things should have already been in the game in the first place. Who cares about chat bubbles when the rest of the game is still not even finnished?
Zenimax is completely indept to run the Elderscrolls Title. Bethesda would of done a 10x better job because they are more familiar with the IP. I not only wish this game was never made but I also wish Zenimax never developed it.. They even used The Hero and Havok Engine which is one of the worst choices as game engines go for a game that is suppose to be a sandbox. All along they have made terrible design decisions from day one that are the worst I have ever seen for a AAA title. I thought SOE and EA were bad at this kind of thing.
But Zenimax have lied on occasion and they have been making statements they should not be making to the fans of this game in PR releases and forums. They should be honest and just tell people the game is not fininished and they will release patches/updates as they finnish them. Instead of making promises they cant keep. They also said in PR release the game would never go free to play or buy to play. Whatever same thing because they both have cash shops anyways. I KNEW the second I heard that they would be going back on their word and I was right all along.
B2P doesn't mean anything. It just means the game will have microtransactions like every other boring MMO on steam.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I have to agree with the OP. My sub ran out today and I have no intention of renewing, Ever. Not going to buy anything from the CS and most likely won't log in again. Just me though. Most likely eso will adjust the gold, XP, Crafting xp gained so that 10% bonus will get you what you have now and not really anything extra. Zeni already stated that PC and Consoles will be receiving patches and DLC at the same time.
If your a PC only player, the waiting is going to be far longer between new content and even fixes. It's much more expensive and time consuming to test anything for a console. PC players are going to be 2nd class citizens starting March 17. Actually we were from the start, since we basically paid to beta the game for consoles. When they realize that they aren't making enough money from the store you will start seeing items popping up in the store that some will consider P2W, more nag screens, or things placed behind pay walls. Just look at Rift and Lotro for what they have now compared to what they started with.
No thanks Zeni.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.