Well, we've tried the non trinity gameplay and it's just not as fun to me so I say stick with it but flare it up a bit. Go back to support classes and actually CC, like sheeping mobs being important for classes, saps etc. Give me a class system like Vanguard has, with tons of differing tanks, heals, support and dps. I think Rift does well in this regard by giving us multiple specs to choose from at a given time. FFXI was good with this as well and perhaps even FFXIV to a degree. I like customizing my character towards roles but also having the option to shake it up a bit.
every toon does damage, but some toons are more suited for damage than others
i don't want my healer doing damage while the rest of us lose health and die
Your healer isn't so hard-pressed when there is capable cc. Even in early raid formats, the style was to see how few participants you needed to accomplish tasks, and that setup inevitably included roles filled in tank, off tank, main heal, back heal, mez, buffs, and... everyone else, but that "everyone else" was 30 other guys, because of scrubs, or 6, for the class-specific drops.
Trinity allows for WAY more versatile and dangerous combat.The reason is simple,a Tank should be the ONLY one that can take a hit,make one mistake healing or spamming dps and you might die.That is the way it should be,why are games catering to rewarding sloppy game play?Oh you died,no worries no healer needed here is a RR,oh you have your own RR pot lol.../sigh.
I am not just an advocate of Trinity i also believe in the aged 6 man group because it just works and BEST.The same problem 24 man Raid ,oh don't worry we have 6 healers and 4 Tanks,umm no thanks to so many Tanks.
The we have ideas that really make my eyes roll,AUTOMATED ideas like do a somersault and auto heals everyone around you ,,,seriously who the heck thought of such a dumb idea?
CC? Another idea that is dumb,yes let's reward again sloppy game play.If the game just has a mess of mobs coming at me,then i don't care about the game period,that is sloppy spammy game play.I want to see controlled ONE mob fights,sure if a mistake happens or another mob happens by or spawns and links no problem ,remember that small 6 man group i was talking about?
Likely in a 6 man group only one player has the ability to CC and their ability should be on a long timer so as not to make it simpleton and spammed,don't want to be encouraging more bad game play.So perhaps Sleep that link for 20 seconds,group had better work diligently and be ready when it awakes.More mistakes perhaps 2-3-4 links then you deserve to die lol.However a game with really good skills and a sub class system would allow that small 6 man group to survive a few mistakes but very challenging as it should be.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
CC? Another idea that is dumb,yes let's reward again sloppy game play.If the game just has a mess of mobs coming at me,then i don't care about the game period,that is sloppy spammy game play.I want to see controlled ONE mob fights,sure if a mistake happens or another mob happens by or spawns and links no problem ,remember that small 6 man group i was talking about?
The gameplay upon which the trinity complaints were based actually wasn't sloppy like that. It was articulate. Pulls were carefully considered, sometimes chained off feigned-death pullers. Mobs would begin retreating below a given health level, and they were social so if you let them run, they'd bring back friends. If you were sloppy, you were doing it wrong and dying or training to zoneline.
See, people in general don't want that articulation and difficulty in their video games, and that's one reason WoW is so popular since BC expac, and especially WotLK. The latter is where cc practically got thrown out the window in favor of strong-arm, perfect-threat tanks and ae. Trinity concept didn't come from WoW, though. It existed years before WoW released. That doesn't mean "trinity became" something different. It means people heard the term and mistakenly conveyed its meaning and consequences and it became convoluted.
That picture can be offensive to some christians. I understand it's referencing the "holy trinity" term, but i suggest using the more neutral word "trinity" so as not to offend others who are christians (and quite frankly the mods here need to start cracking down on people's offensive avatar pictures too). I'll just leave it at that, and won't reply to anyone quoting this because i don't want to derail this topic more than i already have.
As for the topic, the trinity concept in MMO's works to a degree. At what point does an encounter become too easy due to the trinity roles? It really depends on the A.I. encounters, and whether they just focus on the tank because of threat mechanics. If the A.I. mobs don't pose any danger to the DPS and Healers, then it becomes too easy. The problem with GW2 was that it relied too much on self-reliance, without needing any support builds. It really depends on the A.I. encounters and how well they are designed, in order to make a great non-trinity MMO.
Now that someone went there, you know people are going to reply to it. I don't think it's offensive because I have trust god will sort it out. A picture isn't my problem. I'm not going to present images like that, myself, of course.
Originally posted by novakayne88 needs a 4th wheel... bring back the support class
I can't agree more. Whether it's through buffs, debuffs, CC or even something else.
I thought it was time for the trinity to take a dive! And then I played GW2 and realized that while I didn't care for class-based play, I really liked roles. My entire group of regular players (~12 people) ditched GW2 and went to WoW of all places. Of course, WoW didn't last because it wasn't complex enough after the pre-MoP talent tree massive nerf to be really challenging or flexible (and the pandas sort of grated on many people's nerves). What I'd really like is a nice complex game that utilizes the trinity and other roles. I enjoyed the first two incarnations of Rift but Nightmare Tide quests were so boring that I actually lost interest before I could get to dungeons. With Archeage, Trion lost most of its credibility with me so that's out too. Not really sure what's left. So if anyone has any ideas, shoot me a PM here -- I'd love to find something decent!
That picture can be offensive to some christians. I understand it's referencing the "holy trinity" term, but i suggest using the more neutral word "trinity" so as not to offend others who are christians (and quite frankly the mods here need to start cracking down on people's offensive avatar pictures too). I'll just leave it at that, and won't reply to anyone quoting this because i don't want to derail this topic more than i already have.
I don't think anyone's offended, btw. I'm not, at least. It's a rather neutral picture(besides the original breaking some iconography rules, but that's a different story, and unrelated to the subject).
Comments
Well, we've tried the non trinity gameplay and it's just not as fun to me so I say stick with it but flare it up a bit. Go back to support classes and actually CC, like sheeping mobs being important for classes, saps etc. Give me a class system like Vanguard has, with tons of differing tanks, heals, support and dps. I think Rift does well in this regard by giving us multiple specs to choose from at a given time. FFXI was good with this as well and perhaps even FFXIV to a degree. I like customizing my character towards roles but also having the option to shake it up a bit.
every toon does damage, but some toons are more suited for damage than others
i don't want my healer doing damage while the rest of us lose health and die
Your healer isn't so hard-pressed when there is capable cc. Even in early raid formats, the style was to see how few participants you needed to accomplish tasks, and that setup inevitably included roles filled in tank, off tank, main heal, back heal, mez, buffs, and... everyone else, but that "everyone else" was 30 other guys, because of scrubs, or 6, for the class-specific drops.
Trinity allows for WAY more versatile and dangerous combat.The reason is simple,a Tank should be the ONLY one that can take a hit,make one mistake healing or spamming dps and you might die.That is the way it should be,why are games catering to rewarding sloppy game play?Oh you died,no worries no healer needed here is a RR,oh you have your own RR pot lol.../sigh.
I am not just an advocate of Trinity i also believe in the aged 6 man group because it just works and BEST.The same problem 24 man Raid ,oh don't worry we have 6 healers and 4 Tanks,umm no thanks to so many Tanks.
The we have ideas that really make my eyes roll,AUTOMATED ideas like do a somersault and auto heals everyone around you ,,,seriously who the heck thought of such a dumb idea?
CC? Another idea that is dumb,yes let's reward again sloppy game play.If the game just has a mess of mobs coming at me,then i don't care about the game period,that is sloppy spammy game play.I want to see controlled ONE mob fights,sure if a mistake happens or another mob happens by or spawns and links no problem ,remember that small 6 man group i was talking about?
Likely in a 6 man group only one player has the ability to CC and their ability should be on a long timer so as not to make it simpleton and spammed,don't want to be encouraging more bad game play.So perhaps Sleep that link for 20 seconds,group had better work diligently and be ready when it awakes.More mistakes perhaps 2-3-4 links then you deserve to die lol.However a game with really good skills and a sub class system would allow that small 6 man group to survive a few mistakes but very challenging as it should be.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The gameplay upon which the trinity complaints were based actually wasn't sloppy like that. It was articulate. Pulls were carefully considered, sometimes chained off feigned-death pullers. Mobs would begin retreating below a given health level, and they were social so if you let them run, they'd bring back friends. If you were sloppy, you were doing it wrong and dying or training to zoneline.
See, people in general don't want that articulation and difficulty in their video games, and that's one reason WoW is so popular since BC expac, and especially WotLK. The latter is where cc practically got thrown out the window in favor of strong-arm, perfect-threat tanks and ae. Trinity concept didn't come from WoW, though. It existed years before WoW released. That doesn't mean "trinity became" something different. It means people heard the term and mistakenly conveyed its meaning and consequences and it became convoluted.
That picture can be offensive to some christians. I understand it's referencing the "holy trinity" term, but i suggest using the more neutral word "trinity" so as not to offend others who are christians (and quite frankly the mods here need to start cracking down on people's offensive avatar pictures too). I'll just leave it at that, and won't reply to anyone quoting this because i don't want to derail this topic more than i already have.
As for the topic, the trinity concept in MMO's works to a degree. At what point does an encounter become too easy due to the trinity roles? It really depends on the A.I. encounters, and whether they just focus on the tank because of threat mechanics. If the A.I. mobs don't pose any danger to the DPS and Healers, then it becomes too easy. The problem with GW2 was that it relied too much on self-reliance, without needing any support builds. It really depends on the A.I. encounters and how well they are designed, in order to make a great non-trinity MMO.
I can't agree more. Whether it's through buffs, debuffs, CC or even something else.
I thought it was time for the trinity to take a dive! And then I played GW2 and realized that while I didn't care for class-based play, I really liked roles. My entire group of regular players (~12 people) ditched GW2 and went to WoW of all places. Of course, WoW didn't last because it wasn't complex enough after the pre-MoP talent tree massive nerf to be really challenging or flexible (and the pandas sort of grated on many people's nerves). What I'd really like is a nice complex game that utilizes the trinity and other roles. I enjoyed the first two incarnations of Rift but Nightmare Tide quests were so boring that I actually lost interest before I could get to dungeons. With Archeage, Trion lost most of its credibility with me so that's out too. Not really sure what's left. So if anyone has any ideas, shoot me a PM here -- I'd love to find something decent!
I don't think anyone's offended, btw. I'm not, at least. It's a rather neutral picture(besides the original breaking some iconography rules, but that's a different story, and unrelated to the subject).