Originally posted by zzax No PvP = no community = no longevity = game hoppers = ghost town in 3 months
Meanwhile EQ1 16 years later........
Different times are different. Try to repeat it in todays market.You either keep community with PvP (territory control, politics, drama) or you pump millions dollars every 2-3 months in PvE game, like Blizzard does, to keep game hoppers occupied.Theres no other way, no one will farm mobs for 16 years anymore.
I think that *you* think this way, but saying everyone does is utter crap.
By the way, "Politics" and "Drama" happen plenty well without PvP.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Iselin Because when you give people total freedom, they fight... way to go, human race!
Kids play in sandboxes for hours without fighting, so there's that. Our instinct is survival and community not killing one another as that is a threat to survival.
only if the sandbox is big enough and each has its own toys. if that's not the case, then there's screaming, tears and smashed sand castles ... I do have kids, I know :-)
Originally posted by Iselin Because when you give people total freedom, they fight... way to go, human race!
Kids play in sandboxes for hours without fighting, so there's that. Our instinct is survival and community not killing one another as that is a threat to survival.
only if the sandbox is big enough and each has its own toys. if that's not the case, then there's screaming, tears and smashed sand castles ... I do have kids, I know :-)
Oh I have kids too - smashed sand castles happen but they are rebuilt sometimes together. What it doesn't lead to is killings. Cooperation among people is a lot more natural than killing - otherwise none of us would be here. My point remains - PvE sandbox games exist and are just as viable as PvP sandbox games.
smashed castles = killing. simple as that. the virtual loss in a game is the same. however people seem to make much of a deal out of it. there is no real consequence to death in any pc game. same for the fights between kids in a sandbox.
Well for now it is because the technology isn't in place to have a sandbox PvE game. People will call all kinds of things sandbox but for you to really have a sandbox PvE game you have to be able to somehow control what is happening on the PvE side of things. I can drive the orcs out of the dungeon for good, I can be elected mayor of a town and run it, I can help the dwarves retake their mine and they go back to living there.
Just not having quests does not make something sandbox, just being able to build a house does not making it a sandbox. UO was not a sandbox game, it had a couple sandbox elements.
I'll never understand why people think that other players should never be able to impact their play though. It is like someone playing SC2 and yelling at other players on the other team for attacking them. PvP does nothing but add another positive level to a game, even if sometimes it alters your plans for the night. You just can't have a single player game mindset going into it.
Originally posted by HabitualFrogStomp Because sandboxes are mostly about the community that you build around the game. The tools to build something with the world or do X Y Z are just tools and are meaningless without a context. The community provides that context.
If there is no rivalry in a game or someone that wants to hinder you from doing something, you may as well create a themepark. Sandboxes should be about interaction and rivalry or strife is one of the base ways people interact with each other.
There's a whole group that can't handle rivalry or will hold grudges over this stuff, they shouldn't play these kinds of games. They are for people that understand that the other player is my content, and I am his, if he does something to harm me or my progress I shouldn't take it personally because that's what makes the world go. So no, if you can't handle that, or don't have that level of maturity or understanding, don't even bother with it.
Apple and Micorsoft are rivals. Do they kill each other? I'm sure they sometimes would like to, but they do not
Rivalries take many forms, not just superior fighting power. Become the best crafter is a huge draw for rivalries. Have the "coolest home" is another one. Become the best cartographer or guide by exploring. Join a player city and help make it the best in the game. Help a guild to achieve "server firsts", like dungeon completions.
Fighting vs NPCs is fine. It can break weapons, wear out armor, and provide materials for crafting or even guard material gathering spots. There is no need for PvP except to fight other players. It provides nothing else besides that.
actualy they DO kill each other. you have to translate the killing to the rule set available. law suits, patent wars, media campaigns etc. those are attempts to hurt each other on the level that's available. it's the same as a duel in the game. the one that loses does suffer a small death (loss of gear/experience etc.) and the game continues.
you have to see things in perspective and not jump to unrelated extremes.
Well for now it is because the technology isn't in place to have a sandbox PvE game. People will call all kinds of things sandbox but for you to really have a sandbox PvE game you have to be able to somehow control what is happening on the PvE side of things. I can drive the orcs out of the dungeon for good, I can be elected mayor of a town and run it, I can help the dwarves retake their mine and they go back to living there.
Just not having quests does not make something sandbox, just being able to build a house does not making it a sandbox. UO was not a sandbox game, it had a couple sandbox elements.
the technology is definitely there ... just for a limited audience .... that's the problem. no huge revenue ...
Well for now it is because the technology isn't in place to have a sandbox PvE game. People will call all kinds of things sandbox but for you to really have a sandbox PvE game you have to be able to somehow control what is happening on the PvE side of things. I can drive the orcs out of the dungeon for good, I can be elected mayor of a town and run it, I can help the dwarves retake their mine and they go back to living there.
Just not having quests does not make something sandbox, just being able to build a house does not making it a sandbox. UO was not a sandbox game, it had a couple sandbox elements.
On the flipside, my necromancer* can repopulate that dungeon with undead hordes, and ideally raise an army to pay a visit to that town. Otherwise there'd be nothing left to fight if players start exterminating everything.
Now that'd be a mix of PvE and PvP I could get into. Add in some events created by the Forces That Be (AKA the devs) and there should be plenty of fun to be had.
* Or even an NPC necromancer doing it in case of a pure PvE game.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Originally posted by haplo602 Originally posted by Ender4Well for now it is because the technology isn't in place to have a sandbox PvE game. People will call all kinds of things sandbox but for you to really have a sandbox PvE game you have to be able to somehow control what is happening on the PvE side of things. I can drive the orcs out of the dungeon for good, I can be elected mayor of a town and run it, I can help the dwarves retake their mine and they go back to living there.Just not having quests does not make something sandbox, just being able to build a house does not making it a sandbox. UO was not a sandbox game, it had a couple sandbox elements.
the technology is definitely there ... just for a limited audience .... that's the problem. no huge revenue ...
Well it is definitely getting there. They have to do a lot of work with game AI and procedural content still. The good thing is once someone does it, others tend to copy it pretty quickly. That is why I support EQN. Even if it fails it is trying some things that I would like to see spread into other MMORPG.
Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade All the major financial successes are themeparks. EVE operates on the level of Neverwinter, STO and a bunch of the other low budget themeparks. Mediocrity (in terms of income) is hardly what companies aim to achieve.
Considering that EVE is one of the largest and very likely as well one of the highest revenue MMO on western markets, I wonder how you come up with that idea it could be considered "mediocre in terms of income".
All the major financial successes are themeparks. EVE operates on the level of Neverwinter, STO and a bunch of the other low budget themeparks. Mediocrity (in terms of income) is hardly what companies aim to achieve.
Considering that EVE is one of the largest and very likely as well one of the highest revenue MMO on western markets, I wonder how you come up with that idea it could be considered "mediocre in terms of income".
Eve only brings high revenues due to the loss of ships and outside cash injections (buying ISK).
If you were to remove the plex and only leave subscription the game wouldn't be grossing even nearly as much.
It's not a game, it is a twisted financial system with spreadsheets.
If you create a highly wowified sandbox that appeals to casuals you might go for the big bucks. But mainly these sandboxes have to settle for quite low profits or have insanely twisted P2W systems.
Originally posted by Thane as said, those are different goals, don't get me wrong, i love and play eve, but those publishers prefer 10 million paying users (to 500k) ccp published their own game, that is a HUGE advantage for a developer - if they can do what they want, and not have to release a game with 1/3 of it's content as it happened in WAR for example. hello EA *waves*
So CCP is aiming for 500k and that is a reason why they do not have 10k subs as WoW?
Every business is aiming for max profits/income. CCP would be more than happy if they had 500k.
Self publishing isn't really a win. With a publisher, you get all established distribution channels, marketing support, logistics, financial infrastructure, etc.
If a game release with third of planned content, it is mostly devs to be blamed since they did not deliver what they promised to deliver, they missed their deadlines by a long mile and run out of money.
All the major financial successes are themeparks. EVE operates on the level of Neverwinter, STO and a bunch of the other low budget themeparks. Mediocrity (in terms of income) is hardly what companies aim to achieve.
Considering that EVE is one of the largest and very likely as well one of the highest revenue MMO on western markets, I wonder how you come up with that idea it could be considered "mediocre in terms of income".
It's also been a very long time since EVE made a big splash numbers wise. By all accounts it looks to me like a successful MMO, but not really in major leagues.
In addition to that, among the subs it does have, there seem to be a lot of people who have multiple accounts - or at least that's what I gathered from people bragging that to be successful in EVE they use four accounts. Which would make the game even more niche as the actual subs don't reflect the population very well.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Originally posted by Azaron_NightbladeI based it on the steady decline of subs that's been going on for years now. The big layoffs that happened at CCP last year, and the cancelation of WoD.It's also been a very long time since EVE made a big splash numbers wise. By all accounts it looks to me like a successful MMO, but not really in major leagues.In addition to that, among the subs it does have, there seem to be a lot of people who have multiple accounts - or at least that's what I gathered from people bragging that to be successful in EVE they use four accounts. Which would make the game even more niche as the actual subs don't reflect the population very well.
CCP =/= EVE
If some projects turn out non-perspective, they will be cancelled. Regardless how much money the company or investor makes. You are connecting points because it flies your boat, not because of a deductive train of thoughts.
Yeah, EVE sub numbers are stale for quite a few years, still it makes one of the largest subscriber base on the market and the revenue is very likely to be within top of MMO market.
Your personal, arbitrary qualifier of "not really in major leagues" is irrelevant. It is baseless and silly since it does not reflect the reality of the market.
Please do show me how many multi account players are there in EVE and other games for comparison. Without those data, your comment is just once again baseless rumbling.
They just really need to have PvP & PvE servers for these game. Think that this would ultimately solve most of the issues between these to play styles.
EVE has no competition . . . Star Citizen is the first game to challenge anything about the Space Sci-Fi genre (no the 2-3 space shooters don't count).
WoW has had 3-5 MMOs per year trying to go against it (not gonna count the zillion other little fantasy MMO's that get released). EVE just sits there uncontested. I honestly don't believe EVE would still be standing if there was as heavy an influx of new Space Sci-Fi MMO's as there are fantasy games.
Originally posted by steelheartx They just really need to have PvP & PvE servers for these game. Think that this would ultimately solve most of the issues between these to play styles.
Truth...this would squash alot of the arguments...it might make some of the hack pvp'ers pissed, but the real pvp'ers probably won't mind.
Originally posted by GoldenArrow Eve only brings high revenues due to the loss of ships and outside cash injections (buying ISK).If you were to remove the plex and only leave subscription the game wouldn't be grossing even nearly as much.
I am eager to see the data you base those claims on...
Do people ever stop to ask themselves why carebears are playing a full open world PVP game in the first place? They try to make it seem like the second that one of these kinds of games releases that there will be hundreds or thousands of completely docile and brain dead defenseless children (who average probably around age 25-30) who suddenly buy the games against their will and are forced to install them on their computer and be online 15 hours a day and perpetually get ganked by the refuse of society. This is the picture that is painted, I just find it odd nobody actually considers how ridiculous the idea is.
You play one of these games with the knowledge of what can happen, those "carebears" are just PVPers who aren't very good. They would much rather be on the other side of the fence, in nearly all cases. You don't move to a warzone to farm cabbages.
Though there are some of us who enjoy the challenge and very much would like to grow cabbages in a hostile place and have to fend off anti social scum from our land. If you're not one of these kind of people, and take no enjoyment from being a character in a world where a lot of bad things can happen to you and around you, then play something safer that holds your hand and protects you.
I for one like the feeling of not being safe, because it's a game and I need that level of excitement and fear in them to make it worth my while to really get invested into an online world. Without it they don't feel like worlds, they feel like amusement parks. Those are fun, but if you lived at Disneyland your whole life, you'd get bored eventually.
I based it on the steady decline of subs that's been going on for years now. The big layoffs that happened at CCP last year, and the cancelation of WoD.
It's also been a very long time since EVE made a big splash numbers wise. By all accounts it looks to me like a successful MMO, but not really in major leagues.
In addition to that, among the subs it does have, there seem to be a lot of people who have multiple accounts - or at least that's what I gathered from people bragging that to be successful in EVE they use four accounts. Which would make the game even more niche as the actual subs don't reflect the population very well.
CCP =/= EVE
If some projects turn out non-perspective, they will be cancelled. Regardless how much money the company or investor makes. You are connecting points because it flies your boat, not because of a deductive train of thoughts.
Yeah, EVE sub numbers are stale for quite a few years, still it makes one of the largest subscriber base on the market and the revenue is very likely to be within top of MMO market.
Your personal, arbitrary qualifier of "not really in major leagues" is irrelevant. It is baseless and silly since it does not reflect the reality of the market.
Please do show me how many multi account players are there in EVE and other games for comparison. Without those data, your comment is just once again baseless rumbling.
Originally posted by Gdemami
Originally posted by Rusque
EVE has no competition . . .
That is like saying that WoW has no competition...
Both have competition, they are just simply the best at their themes.
Ah, I see you're one of those types. Consider my baseless rumbling ended.
Besides, your precious EVE is hardly the parade horse for full loot PvP games, as it has safe zones where people can develop their characters/ships somewhat before entering the gank zones if I'm not mistaken*.
I imagine if it didn't have that, it would be ranked somewhere below DF (which probably IS the most successful MMO of that particular niche).
* Or even stay indefinitely if they're alright with progressing very slowly?
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade Ah, I see you're one of those types. Consider my baseless rumbling ended.
Apparently pointing out lack of or weakness in reasoning behind your claims is nothing that would make you stop and you keep rumbling anyway...
On the contrary, EVE is a prime example how full loot, open PVP MMO can work and be highly profitable.
Just because the game is complex and has complex PVP rule set does not make it less full loot open PVP.
Your impressions about EVE and how the game works are very false. There is no progression nor you have to engage in PVP ever, it is a sandbox - all different playstyles are fully viable.
Originally posted by haplo602 actualy they DO kill each other. you have to translate the killing to the rule set available. law suits, patent wars, media campaigns etc. those are attempts to hurt each other on the level that's available. it's the same as a duel in the game. the one that loses does suffer a small death (loss of gear/experience etc.) and the game continues.you have to see things in perspective and not jump to unrelated extremes.
That is not even remotely the same.
You are mixing up civil law with criminal law. Those two are nothing alike.
Comments
By the way, "Politics" and "Drama" happen plenty well without PvP.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
only if the sandbox is big enough and each has its own toys. if that's not the case, then there's screaming, tears and smashed sand castles ... I do have kids, I know :-)
unless I am mistaken, WoW does not have servers capable of holding that many at once ... so your point is ?
smashed castles = killing. simple as that. the virtual loss in a game is the same. however people seem to make much of a deal out of it. there is no real consequence to death in any pc game. same for the fights between kids in a sandbox.
Well for now it is because the technology isn't in place to have a sandbox PvE game. People will call all kinds of things sandbox but for you to really have a sandbox PvE game you have to be able to somehow control what is happening on the PvE side of things. I can drive the orcs out of the dungeon for good, I can be elected mayor of a town and run it, I can help the dwarves retake their mine and they go back to living there.
Just not having quests does not make something sandbox, just being able to build a house does not making it a sandbox. UO was not a sandbox game, it had a couple sandbox elements.
I'll never understand why people think that other players should never be able to impact their play though. It is like someone playing SC2 and yelling at other players on the other team for attacking them. PvP does nothing but add another positive level to a game, even if sometimes it alters your plans for the night. You just can't have a single player game mindset going into it.
actualy they DO kill each other. you have to translate the killing to the rule set available. law suits, patent wars, media campaigns etc. those are attempts to hurt each other on the level that's available. it's the same as a duel in the game. the one that loses does suffer a small death (loss of gear/experience etc.) and the game continues.
you have to see things in perspective and not jump to unrelated extremes.
the technology is definitely there ... just for a limited audience .... that's the problem. no huge revenue ...
On the flipside, my necromancer* can repopulate that dungeon with undead hordes, and ideally raise an army to pay a visit to that town. Otherwise there'd be nothing left to fight if players start exterminating everything.
Now that'd be a mix of PvE and PvP I could get into. Add in some events created by the Forces That Be (AKA the devs) and there should be plenty of fun to be had.
* Or even an NPC necromancer doing it in case of a pure PvE game.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Well it is definitely getting there. They have to do a lot of work with game AI and procedural content still. The good thing is once someone does it, others tend to copy it pretty quickly. That is why I support EQN. Even if it fails it is trying some things that I would like to see spread into other MMORPG.
How many of them are PC players? Do not compare uncomparable...
Considering that EVE is one of the largest and very likely as well one of the highest revenue MMO on western markets, I wonder how you come up with that idea it could be considered "mediocre in terms of income".
Eve only brings high revenues due to the loss of ships and outside cash injections (buying ISK).
If you were to remove the plex and only leave subscription the game wouldn't be grossing even nearly as much.
It's not a game, it is a twisted financial system with spreadsheets.
If you create a highly wowified sandbox that appeals to casuals you might go for the big bucks. But mainly these sandboxes have to settle for quite low profits or have insanely twisted P2W systems.
So CCP is aiming for 500k and that is a reason why they do not have 10k subs as WoW?
Every business is aiming for max profits/income. CCP would be more than happy if they had 500k.
Self publishing isn't really a win. With a publisher, you get all established distribution channels, marketing support, logistics, financial infrastructure, etc.
If a game release with third of planned content, it is mostly devs to be blamed since they did not deliver what they promised to deliver, they missed their deadlines by a long mile and run out of money.
I based it on the steady decline of subs that's been going on for years now. The big layoffs that happened at CCP last year, and the cancelation of WoD. (http://www.polygon.com/2014/6/5/5782190/ccp-iceland-layoffs-eve-online)
It's also been a very long time since EVE made a big splash numbers wise. By all accounts it looks to me like a successful MMO, but not really in major leagues.
In addition to that, among the subs it does have, there seem to be a lot of people who have multiple accounts - or at least that's what I gathered from people bragging that to be successful in EVE they use four accounts. Which would make the game even more niche as the actual subs don't reflect the population very well.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
CCP =/= EVE
If some projects turn out non-perspective, they will be cancelled. Regardless how much money the company or investor makes. You are connecting points because it flies your boat, not because of a deductive train of thoughts.
Yeah, EVE sub numbers are stale for quite a few years, still it makes one of the largest subscriber base on the market and the revenue is very likely to be within top of MMO market.
Your personal, arbitrary qualifier of "not really in major leagues" is irrelevant. It is baseless and silly since it does not reflect the reality of the market.
Please do show me how many multi account players are there in EVE and other games for comparison. Without those data, your comment is just once again baseless rumbling.
Looking for a family that you can game with for life? Check out Grievance at https://www.grievancegaming.org !
EVE has no competition . . . Star Citizen is the first game to challenge anything about the Space Sci-Fi genre (no the 2-3 space shooters don't count).
WoW has had 3-5 MMOs per year trying to go against it (not gonna count the zillion other little fantasy MMO's that get released). EVE just sits there uncontested. I honestly don't believe EVE would still be standing if there was as heavy an influx of new Space Sci-Fi MMO's as there are fantasy games.
Truth...this would squash alot of the arguments...it might make some of the hack pvp'ers pissed, but the real pvp'ers probably won't mind.
That is like saying that WoW has no competition...
Both have competition, they are just simply the best at their themes.
I am eager to see the data you base those claims on...
Do people ever stop to ask themselves why carebears are playing a full open world PVP game in the first place? They try to make it seem like the second that one of these kinds of games releases that there will be hundreds or thousands of completely docile and brain dead defenseless children (who average probably around age 25-30) who suddenly buy the games against their will and are forced to install them on their computer and be online 15 hours a day and perpetually get ganked by the refuse of society. This is the picture that is painted, I just find it odd nobody actually considers how ridiculous the idea is.
You play one of these games with the knowledge of what can happen, those "carebears" are just PVPers who aren't very good. They would much rather be on the other side of the fence, in nearly all cases. You don't move to a warzone to farm cabbages.
Though there are some of us who enjoy the challenge and very much would like to grow cabbages in a hostile place and have to fend off anti social scum from our land. If you're not one of these kind of people, and take no enjoyment from being a character in a world where a lot of bad things can happen to you and around you, then play something safer that holds your hand and protects you.
I for one like the feeling of not being safe, because it's a game and I need that level of excitement and fear in them to make it worth my while to really get invested into an online world. Without it they don't feel like worlds, they feel like amusement parks. Those are fun, but if you lived at Disneyland your whole life, you'd get bored eventually.
Ah, I see you're one of those types. Consider my baseless rumbling ended.
Besides, your precious EVE is hardly the parade horse for full loot PvP games, as it has safe zones where people can develop their characters/ships somewhat before entering the gank zones if I'm not mistaken*.
I imagine if it didn't have that, it would be ranked somewhere below DF (which probably IS the most successful MMO of that particular niche).
* Or even stay indefinitely if they're alright with progressing very slowly?
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Apparently pointing out lack of or weakness in reasoning behind your claims is nothing that would make you stop and you keep rumbling anyway...
On the contrary, EVE is a prime example how full loot, open PVP MMO can work and be highly profitable.
Just because the game is complex and has complex PVP rule set does not make it less full loot open PVP.
Your impressions about EVE and how the game works are very false. There is no progression nor you have to engage in PVP ever, it is a sandbox - all different playstyles are fully viable.
That is not even remotely the same.
You are mixing up civil law with criminal law. Those two are nothing alike.