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The Open World is *bad* for MMOs
nariusseldon
Member EpicPosts: 27,775
Disclaimer: of course i am talking about my opinion and preferences. So take it as such, and don't tell me i am forcing my opinion or preferences on others. I am merely stating my opinions, as "good" and "bad" are subjective.
If I consider all the popular MMO gameplay modes, i really don't think an open world adds to fun, and often detract from it. BTW, "open world" in this case refers to a large "zone" where lots of players can come and go with no restriction (as opposed to an instanced with only 5) and also different from the "open world" in a single player game like Skyrim.
Let's look at the popular game modes:
Pve Questing - most quests are solo, and seeing 50 others competing for the quest mobs is not fun nor immersive. (Really, i am going to get the super rare herb to heal whatever, and 50 others are farming it????) In fact, it is hard to add story content in an open world ... and the attempts (like phasing) are really not that effective. To me, it would be much better to put story quests into instances .. so you can put in scripting and other narrative elements.
But what about meeting a lone adventurer from time to time? You don't need an open world to do that. Just match another player into your game randomly ... and control how many (i.e. share world shooter). In fact, give me an option to prevent that.
Pve dungeons & raids - The tabletop (though video games don't have to adhere to pnp 100%) adventures are all about small groups. That is why instanced dungeons are so popular (and i throw raid in here .. since raid is no different than a dungeon with a larger group). And open world will make it hard to control the experience. Either you will have too few and in this case, doing it in an instance won't make a difference ... or you have too many players and you have to take turns camping, which again is a) no fun, and b) not immersive.
In fact, since dungeon runs are about small groups, there is really no advantage to have an open world. And some may say clever design may solve the "too few too many" problem. My answer is this .. why bother ... if it is about small group co-op gameplay, there is no need to put it into an open world
Pvp e-sport or arena - for the "fair" controlled pvp games (e-sport, capture the flag, ....), again, open world lost the ability to make the game fair and control the experience (like those battleground in WoW ... if it is open world, it is a lot harder to do the fun stuff like siege machines).
Pvp large scale war - this is the ONLY game mode that I think an open world design is warranted.
So .. if i think through all the gameplay mode, actually very few need an open world .. and often an open world make the game LESS fun. Now some may say .. design new game modes to "fit" an open world. But why bother? The point of games are to have fun ... and not to have an open world for the sake of it.
I think many MMOs are better off just forget about the open world (some already do, some are minimizing it anyway) because it is expensive and adds little or even detracting from some of making these gameplay modes fun. Now games like PS2 still have a real use for it, but those are in the minorities.
and oh ... what about the original intent of MMOs? I say that is irrelevant. If the original intent is bad design (and to me, it is), junk it and do something new.
Comments
Slow night on TV? Nothing good to read? Already done with your 15 minutes of Marvel Heroes?
Getting ready to move out into Null sec (again) here in EVE where it's about as wild an open world as there is in any MMORPG ever made.
Long travel times will take me roughly 18 minutes per character just to fly out to new home, using an extremely fast ship, and I'll have to deal with marauding fleets, raging npc rats, meglomaniacal corp mates, asshats, griefers, and continue my quest towards total domination of all of free space.
Er...what was your post about again? NM, probably not important.
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...sounds like you have a love affair with skyrims open world tell me how that open world is different from other open worlds lol . "open world is bad...but not sakyrim open world no no. dude open world is open world dont exclude just to counteract an argument.
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I don't believe there are many open world MMOs anymore. The last came before WoW.
It is difficult to have a good adventure if there are too many people around, but not impossible. It depends on how big the world is and how hard it is to get to and complete certain areas within the game world.
Having an open world has it's upsides. One big one is that it makes the world feel alive in a way that programmed NPCs can't. A city feels fairly hollow when it's just occupied by NPCs.
The ability to encounter other players while traveling through different areas of the world makes it feel more real/fun IMO. There could always be the chance that some other group might be adventuring to the same dungeon/place as you are. I'll admit it is a bit silly when the whole dungeon is being camped by people though. It's fun in a way, but doesn't really fit with the adventure theme.
It's nice when large quantities of people can group up to do things in an open world. Likely this wouldn't be part of an adventure, but to form things like bazaars for trading or if it's a sandbox perhaps building towns and things of that nature.
One major downside to instances is you never get to take advantage of having a lot of people playing on the same server. You never get to see everyone who is playing. You only get to see who is in your instance. That is kind of disappointing IMO.
Perhaps a world could be crafted that it is massive enough to accommodate large quantities of people without them having to run into each other out in the wilds, have enough dungeons and make them difficult enough to get to and complete that they couldn't stay out and camp things. In fact you could make it so that people have to camp/rest at certain points in a safe place in order to prevent people from sitting and camping for hours.
So umm....
Exactly what is an Open World MMO and what examples can you give that are bad for MMOs?
Basicly this. All the sudden thar is a random movement for sandbox hate, slow night indeed.
Why a open world.. Or more exactly just world, is needed. Well the answer is so simple that it is amazing so many don't understand this. To create meaning, reason, immersion, community, roleplay.. All those things that makes a mmorpg differ from just a game.
Open world opens up the game and invite players in to that universe, while instancing and what follows, generally makes players disconnect from the universe. Enter a world instead of grinding a game..
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I totally disagree with your assumption that open world or sandbox games are expensive to make is why there aren't more of more. To me it has more to do with the fact that 1) sandbox cannot be defined in a way that the majority agree with and 2) other than Eve they don't last and aren't what most would call a success.
Gamers, especially on this website, cry for them and trash Themeparks, they overhype the next sandbox and drop it like a sack of potatoes because it failed on this level or that. Go back to my number 1 above and the real answer is there.
Even though they allow for more choices, I think the vast majority of gamers don't really want that even though they claim they do or there would be more games on the market to rival Eve's success. WoW brought the casual gamer an easy mode, no thought required, escape for as long or as short playtime as desired and that brought huge $$$$ to Blizzard. As long as games are developed for those that want a game that EQ, SWG, UO, etc. never were then you will not have a truly successful game other than Eve to follow the sandbox model.
Niche games don't bring in the $$$ and themeparks do. That is why there aren't more open world/sandboxes developed.
Thats my opinion though.
the only "mmo" that doesnt have open world and actually did the non persistence (instancing) well IN MY OPINION is Guild Wars 1.
Give me open world or i dont care about your mmo. Look at games like Vindictus, C9, Dragon Nest, etc. Those games would have been good with an open world. Doing the same small map until you vomit the soul because thats all there is to do is not a fun game design if you ask me.
You really don't get it. Your ideas are robotic. It is not a game's job to police players. Give players the tools to police themselves. There are no true open sand box games today because they are niche and only evolved gamers understand their value. Too many people like yourself have been programmed by the theme park rides developers make for you. Without experiencing a sandbox game you have no idea what you're missing.
Check back in about 10 years after you realize playing games like WoW are like mice chasing cheese in a wheel. Only true challenges come from playing against other players in a world where players have the tools to make their own rules. A.I. will never be that good.
Sorry bud, as long as there are video games and internet connections, open world large scale multiplayer games will always trump any other design you could do in terms of desirability. MOBA's and heavily instanced PVP are big fads now because they are in fact easier to make. It's by no means an improvement on design, it's the opposite, and popularity at this point in time does not point directly at superiority. If that was the case Vanilla Ice was the greatest musician ever in 1990-whatever. But he wasn't and he sucks regardless of how many people liked him at that time.
Once the tech catches up a bit and possibility meets expectations, the only thing you will see on the market is open world games. Instancing is done on need basis not on an "we want to because we love having loading screens" basis.
This guy want nothing more than the mobilfication of the entire genre to be condensed into lobby stlye games that you can play for 15 minutes a clip while you're taking a crap on the bowl with your laptop.
If you read any of this 10's of thousands of posts it is al the same thing said multiple different ways...
1) F2P
2) No open world
3) Lobby Style
4) Dependent on "whales" to support the product while he doesn't pay a cent
5) Games are disposable... meaning once he has consumed content to the point where cost becomes invovled "I just move onto something else"
The list goes on but I am likely already in "ban warning" territory as he will surely report.
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
Not you in particular, but it always cracks me up when people believe this method of delivery of games is sustainable in anyway. Do people honestly believe that the most efficient way to design a game or any product is around giving the vast majority of your audience your product for free? In 20 years developers and players will be laughing about FTP because it is utter absurdity and anyone who says it isn't a ridiculous concept is patently false.
But that's off topic, feel free to tale about how much you love/hate open world games now.
Dude, I was describing the OP... not myself... I am a long time gamer that thoroughly believes in investing in my hobbies no matter what they are.
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
No, I agree with it and agree with your summary of the OP views, that's why I said "not you in particular". I just wanted to have a rant about F2P games cause I get tired of hearing everyone say how awesome it is.
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
Well considering that themeparks are generally known to be dramatically more popular than sandboxes, a good portion of the hate isn't random. Although calling it "hate" always seems excessive and when I post on sandboxes mostly I'm just calmly pointing out the objective factors behind its comparitive unpopularity. People want certain things from games, and most sandboxes fail to provide those things. (And being MMO also makes something a worse sandbox, even if you set aside the gameplay factors.)
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I find the whole "the human race is a violent collection of scum who would murder their mothers to get ahead" narrative to be fairly tired and ill advised. Most people are generally good. Most acts that make others disgusted at what the human race is capable of can be attributed to either mental health issues, war, or greed. The latter two are almost universally orchestrated by those in power, who come to power because they're willing to do those things to achieve their goals, no matter what. The random acts of greed or petty malice that most humans do unto each other are not generally that destructive.
The only thing that would change if we had anarchy is that the really evil people would feel compelled to be nicer to everyone, otherwise they'd get their heads cut off by normal folks. They're protected by having laws and rules more than you're protected from them by having them.
Just sayin...
what does what you say have anything to do with open world?
You can have multiplayer without an open world as succinctly demonstrated by D3, MOBAs, instanced games, and instances in WoW.
I kind of understand where the OP is coming from. This is also why I don't specifically dislike MMO's with heavy instancing.
I loved GW1 and SWG for example. GW1 was completely instanced with (for that time) immersive quests and missions and fun organised PVP (GvG). On the other hand there was SWG with an open world. A game that felt more like a virtual world and for that reason didn't need epic questlines for me. The playercities, crafting, faction based pvp, space, bounty hunting system replaced all that.
So to me, it is very dependant on the game's design whether I prefer open world or instancing.
lol .. really?
If so, why WOW is a lot more successful than UO & EQ?
In fact, you believe open dungeons and camping will make a big comeback? Want to bet money on it?
I 100% disagree with OP opinion.
And no, i dont play the most popular mmorpgs.
I really hope both type of mmorpgs will be crated in future, Open world focus ones and instance ones, so the most people go to instance ones and i go happy with the smaller group to the open world, and every gammer is happy including myself and OP.
nah ... i played UO beta, EQ, and tried Eve. Very bad games for me. Much preferred instanced games.
Heck, the notion of a dungeon run does not involve a whole world, but a few in a group.