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Eve Community and Why I Did Not Stay (for those trying this game out)
Tycalibur
Member Posts: 97
I'm going to sound like an azz here, cause I just uninstalled EvE to make room for a few other MMORPG demos.
Let me praise EvE first. Intelligent writing oozes from this game. The game makes SWG: JTL look like a play-dough joke. The tutorial is awesome. And the game is huge.
Maybe too huge. No, I'm not talking about getting used to all those stargate jumps, those are perfect times to go flip the laundry, make lunch, sit on the can, etc.
The community is what bugs me somehow. I'm trying to understand the TRUE gap between the Vets and the noobs. Not the noobs that do nothing but complain, mind you. You will have those in any game.
It took almost two days to get through the tutorial. That tutorial is highly necessary if you're going to make it the first week.
I ran missions. I ran more missions. I understood the levelling system quite well. After awhile, I began to feel kind of lonely.
Having run a few guilds myself, I'm particularly picky about what group of players I join. I have to make sure they're as right for me as I am for them...because when I join, I tend to be someone a lot of people can depend upon, and I don't like my good nature being taken advantage of by my own guildmates.
So I joined a Corporation Recruiting Channel. I listened to several sales pitches. Naturally, some of them were good, some of them I could see right through. Some of them were complex Corporations, some of them were very simple. A plethora of choices. But I measure the mettle of a guild, and its people. But enough about how I pick one out......I picked a few that looked appealing to me.
To my surprise, these couple of corporations weren't inducting. Why were they advertising? For people who stayed longer than 14 days. Ok, fine. How about running missions with a corporation person? Maybe to show me some new things while I make up my mind whether or not to join this game? Nope.
They don't help anyone but members.
You know.....after the NGE went live, I hated noobs that were handed the entire ship and had the gall to stand outside a starport and demand money from me in SWG. But the ones that asked for help completing a mission......I would always help. A chance to make a friend, maybe even a long-term one that might help your guild become stronger with age in the long run.
But this attitude with the Corporations.......apalling. I wish I could remember which server this was on, because I've uninstalled the game since then.
I honestly felt that a game with a more 'international' community would contain nicer people, and on the surface, it appears to. But you Corporation Leaders are far too paranoid for your own good. Had I been shown the ropes by just one of you, I might have stayed. There are far too many unexplored paths in this game that I wish to learn... and since it is an online game, with an online community, I was looking forward to learning them as a part of a group of friends. Instead what I see at the onset is a stubborn, apprehensive, somewhat paranoid and selfish veteran community.
Perhaps you are truly entitled to your standoffishness.....so if I may ask, what exactly is the problem? Why are you all so reticent to help a non-member learn other aspects of the game?
Comments
Hmm. Aren't you overeacting just a little bit? Perhaps it was the time of day or day of week but when I started the veterans were incredibly helpful and they actually made me feel valuable to them. Don't take one incident as a representation of the whole. Take a few more samples and base them on that. Afterall, I don't prejudge a culture based on 1 or 2 individuals. Take that to heart.
My attempts at getting help were continuous, over a period of days. This wasn't some situation where I was standing in one of the chat channels screaming, "Can some 1 help me plz" over and over again. I was polite to people, and particularly respectful of those who claimed to be recruiting. I was redirected to other channels by the few that even wanted to bother taking the time, and even those channels were void of anyone willing to help.
And it was not just one 'isolated' incident, I want to make that very clear here. And no, I do not think I am overreacting in the slightest. I really want to know what the problem is that creates such a gap between veteran players and new players.
I'm going to take a shot at this and forgive me if I totally miss the mark, I still consider myself somewhat of an EVE outsider as I don't play very often.
EVE has a very robust social and economic model. That being socially you are free to do as you will as long as you are willing to accept the consequences. Economically there are very few protections. This being said alt farming (making alternate characters for various nefarious purposes) is common. So is corp theft, escrow scamming, ore theft, piracy etc etc. The list could go on for quite a while. Depending on where you were and who you were talking to they may have had good reason to brush off your requests. I have read an online article (forgive me but I cannot remember the link) and an article in a popular games magazine (I believe PC gamer) detailing some of the things that have happened. In one instance a scam was run on a major guild that took quite a while but when it finally was sprung over 16000 dollars (at current isk to dollar conversions) was stolen. Ships, items, ore, and cash all gone. Over 100 peoples time and investments wiped out in a day. And whats more, none of it was against the EULA or considered illegal.
This would lead me to be VERY careful of who I talk to and who I hang out with as well. Not to mention that when you group with someone in EVE (called ganging) you can shoot that person and they can shoot you without CONCORD (police) intervention. There are many people who would be willing to take you in and help you out but like any relationship worth while it will take time to establish. My current corporation started after I had been mining and fighting with my Corp leader for almost a month solid. It took that long and there were quite a few moments where we had to trust one another with money, ore, or just plain safety. I suggest you give it another shot. And if you don't like the people where you are...move. The 1.0 systems and safe space are LOADED with people who don't really understand the need for a good and tight knit corp (not to say they are like that).
I would say look me up but I am not online much...working too much sadly. Keep an eye out for Free Industries Union though. Thats my corp. Small but nice people.
Although I am currently on the EVE bandwagon, there have been times in the past that I have seen the exact same thing. In fact, just the other day I was on one of my characters and joined a corporation's recruiting channel and basically got the same runaround. Since it was an alt, I really didn't think about it and moved on my way.
I know ppl here will say you are over-reacting, but the fact remains that if you truly know no-one in game, most of the "better" corps won't talk to you very long. That said, I have a feeling the OP tried to jump into the high end corps a little too soon. The only corps that will take characters less than 14 days old will advertise as such, others just plain refuse. The "higher end" corps and alliances typically have SP requirements that are quite high for a "true" newb. That said, many do have feeder corps that they have set up (or agreements with) which you can join and eventually get in the "bigger" corp. I recommend you stick around for more than 14 days with your toon and see how it turns out then.
The EvE playerbase culls the weak from it's ranks. It's not like FF11 where somebody gets a wet nurse for being new or WoW where the punishment for death is unimportant. That means that if players don't learn early how to play, their possible mistakes become exponentially bigger as they play. I.E losing an Ibis and a level 1 implant compared to losing a BattleCruiser and a head full of rat plants.
Either your player base is mean and death is important or your player base is nice and death is unimportant. Nothing is more dangerious then a nice player base where death is important because it is precisely that enviornment that creates the most dangerious situations.
Don't ask for help in the Recruitment channel. The people there are either recruiters and people on the look for a corp. The former have enough work to do, and the latter, well, they may be new players themselves. Rarely does an experienced player look in the Recruitment channel look for a corp, since there are better ways.
I am quite sure you were on Tranquility (if you meant EVE).[quote]Originally posted by Tycalibur
[b]But you Corporation Leaders are far too paranoid for your own good. Had I been shown the ropes by just one of you, I might have stayed.[/quote]
Their loss. Move on, start to play the game (I learned the basic on my own too), and the right corporation will show up sooner or later. Also most leaders are paranoid, becasue they have right to be. In a game where spies/saboteurs/thieves can break the neck of a corporation, it is understandable - or? They are cautious whom they deal with and who they let into their corp. Not all are of course that way, but those who are usually have reason to be. Its not about a bad community, but playing a game that offers more than just "do X missions" to get nice stuff. EVE offers you the greatest freedom in an Online game - for the good, and the bad.
Hmmm, well, then again, maybe you were not on the same server I was on, since the community *I* know is very helpful to new players.
Actually I sacrificed a lot of my gametime to provide new players with help and assistance, and you know what? I have rarely been thanked for it (only In my recent corp). Yet that still didn't prevent me from helping newer players, even if I had to see that there were unthankful asses among them. Just as you should try to look deeper, and not let yourself influenced by said people.And you know what? I even offer you to help personally, if you try the game again. Just post here if you are intersted or PM me.
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Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
The EVE community can seem very brash at times, especially to trial accounts. There is a lot of social engineering in EVE, and weariness to new players. Not only can items be stolen, but intel gathered, locations revelled, full corp listings for corps ready to declare war on another corp, information given on Voice Comms and forums. Etc.
That being said... EVE has one of the best communities I've been around. Your best way to get past peoples paranoia is to actually start striking up conversations in local systems. Eventually you will meet people and they will start warming up and helping. Sometimes playing EVE with other players in a no-strings attached manner can be better to start with.
I am a long time veteran to the game, and while I do help new people get started sometimes, I understand why people are concerned with a trial account or alternate character joining a corp. 1 person in EVE can affect the play of many. I understand your frustration though, and you may want to look for an "Academy" style corp, or post in the eve-online forums looking for a starter corp that accepts trial accounts. It can take a long time to build trust in people in EVE, there is so much at stake. In EVE though, the community is rock solid as far as team play.
One last thing, there are only two servers available to the public in EVE, and one is a test server. EVE is a non-sharded universe, which makes the community that much stronger. Any one you meet in the forums that plays, plays on your server and you can get in contact with them easy. Myself included and my name in game is the same that I use in these forums.
Cheers,
Fantus
Gotta take care of #1 first. That's the first rule.
Yes, you have to be social to succeed, but not social in a sappy way like, "Let's be friends forever till the bitter end."
Its social more like, "I'm a wolf. You're a wolf. Let's make a wolfpack and take down large prey."
You are always expected to take care of yourself. That means being able to support yourself, being able to make money, etc.
If you join a PVP corp and be like "Yo I'm broke" someone might lend you money, once or twice, but nobody is gonna sit there and support you, at the end of the day you are gonna need to figure out how to make money and eat.
It makes for friendships based on NEED, the best kind, and it also introduces you to pain of having to leave your friends if you cannot support yourself, or if your corp cannot defend itself, or if your alliance starts crumbling. All your former friends might become new enemies, it happens all the time, thats what makes Eve interesting, it's a SPACE OPERA, alliances break up, half goes this way, half go that way, and you end up fighting former allies.
So no. I'm not gonna fly 20 jumps to help you do missions. If you can't even handle the simplistic AI , then we have no reason to be communicating. If we are to be corpmates, you are going to need to show alot more resourcefulness than that.
I'm down to be corpmates with other predators, not livestock.
Bottom line :
Unless you are at least 2 weeks old, then you can just forget about joining even a newbie corp.
You need 2 months and must have at least joined 1 or 2 noob corps in that time to be considered for any serious corp. They need to be able to talk to your former CEO/Officers and come away with a warm feeling for you.
Sometimes they will require a screenshot of your login screen (to see your alts.)
Sometimes they will also require a screenshot of your wallet's "Player donations" window, to see who gives you money (alts.)
TS/Ventrillo is a must.
A stable computer/connection is a must.
Ability to support yourself is a must. That means you need to be able to farm missions or ratting in 0.0 for money. You should be able to NPC in your sleep, and tank them indefinitely.
Don't even bring WoW into this picture, its more in the category of Diablo 2 than Eve. Yes, I enjoy killing people with my undead rogue, I also enjoy sniping in Counterstrike, that has nothing to do with Eve.
This is a slow burning adult space sim. Its not an action game.
Bottom line is, this game is not for you.
Have fun in wow.
Concidering the harsh replies you have recieved from some of the prior posters. The ones that Indeed did try and help and not rag on you in a round a bout kinda way have it hung true. Corporations in Eve are compared to WoW, DaOC and EQ2 like comparing mega corps to local family run stores. Yes your best mate could work for you in the local. But in the big smoke. Your friendship can mean nothing. I myself didn't even TRY to get into a corp unitl I was on the verge of my 2nd month of play. Also, there is a reason why you cannot close the 'help' chat window on a trial. It is because you need it. I'm still asking questions in it everyonce in a while. As long as you are nice some one will reply.
When It came time for myself to join a corp I tried for 3 that suited my play style. 2 of them rejected me without any other reason then 'You need to have a corp history to join' That line really gets yu going, but when you think about how the game works. I would rather that the members that I recieve in my current corp had a history. Aspecially since My corp is at war at this present time.
Then the one that did let me into their ingame chat didn't let me do anything with any of it's members. All untill they found out I wasn't in a timezone that fitted the main collectives prime times.
You probably (unless extreamly lucky) find a corp before your 5th time. on a 1 month or older account, any younger. It is almost irrelivant that your ingame to a corp. It is not your fault. It is not the player in the corps fault. It is paranoia(sp?) working its way into the mind of the recruiter who should not let a player on a trial into a corp.
to be continued *
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
Fizzle, I get allot of what you're saying. I understand that this is a game that will punish you if you are not self reliant & wary. But as a guy that's just about to open an account, I'm really put off by your attitude.
I'm a successful guy that's done well in RL & in every game I've ever played, but I don't have to feel like some kind of predator is give myself a sense of self worth. Now maybe I have you wrong & it's just the way that your post came across (though your choice of an UD rogue rather supports the impression I have), and if you were just using expressive language to get your point across, I take it back.
I used to play allot of magic the gathering, and I played it well, but there was always a section of players that were truely worthless assholes that used the game to feed their stunted/warped self worth rather than for laughs. They'll be there in any nerdy activity of course, but I wonder if there isn't a particularly strong representantion of them in Eve?
I'm still gonna give Eve a go, but it better be fun and not some latent ego driver. If the game doesn't supply me with plentyful shits & giggles from day one, then I'll pull the plug & play something else.
Nick
The race doesn't always go to the swiftest, nor the battle to the strongest, but that's the way to bet.
Based on your response I don't think you have what it takes to enjoy Eve.
As many people stated - EVE is a harsh mistress. She can also love you sometimes. And when she does... oh...man its real nice.
Now, I left EVE, personal issues, about a year ago. I have returned 3 months later and started a new character. I dont see a way of leaving the game - it changes constantly, it evolves.
So, a new player coming into game should stay in the "Noob" corp. for a little while. Once you get a hang of EVE and its mechanics you can start looking for a Player Corp.
On the other hand, I would recommend Eve University for the first player corp. It is being run by some people I know, and most noobs do real well, they learn to co-operate and work together. They learn how game works. They become part of something bigger than they are.
Eventually, once you think you can stand on your own two feet - you should go and look for a proper PC corp. You should choose one according to your play-style. Dont join a PVP corp. just because you think all the guys are the are uber-killers, or a Production/Mining Corp. because you think you will get rich fast. But, join a corp. that appeals to you - in other words if you think that most of your time you will spend killing other players - then PVP is for you. On the other hand, if you think that perhaps Mission Running and carving your place in the Galaxy slowly and unobtrusively is the way to go - then a small Empire corp. could be the thing.
When applying to the corp. ALWAYS be honest with the people who interview you.
When they ask you to submit Screenshots, or Wallet Pictures, do so - do not get offended. Eve is extremely complex and socially constructed game. There are plenty of incidents where corporations have lost billions upon billions, tens of billions of ISK due to an infiltrator or a spy. What they are doing is protecting themselves. Its only logical.
Main thing is to have fun - and in order for you to have fun you should click personally with the people in your corp. That is why I recommend a small corporation at first, someplace where you can receive individual attention from each member, where you will learn their own individual quirks and idiosyncrasies.
Now, also, you must be able to support yourself. This means that you will need to run missions.
Since Post-RMR many corporations actually require you to run missions for a certain faction only. Yes, they want you and everyone else in the corp. to work together in order to increase the general faction/NPC standing of their corp. Not only high faction/npc standing provides certain benefits to all members - it is also a preparation for a Kali - next expansion of EVE. Where Faction Warfare will play a huge role.
If you want to give EVE a shot again, PM me here with your in game Character name. I will contact you there and we can talk more. Maybe you just need help understanding this damn game. :-)
It can be allot of fun - witht he right attitude.
Cheers.
As others have said -- what you perceived as rudeness might better be described as paranoid, but for good reason. Did you get help with specific questions? I sure did when I started.......was I a bit frustrated that corps seemed to not really "recruit" ya especially the ones I really wanted to join.
Eve is a lot like real life on the internet (there's a strange irony) in that you can hardly trust online characters. Spying is a HUGE part of the game, CCP could do more to temper it but really it works as part of the game. In real life you don't type "Hey can I get a job here" on a companies' website, the company doesn't hire 12 yr olds with no training/experience (the 14 day trial player).....Until you understand more about how the corps interact with their members you really don't understand the game. Sadly they just cannot recruit new members, or even established players at times.....
The "social structure" is very very different than "Guilds" others where there is room for Noobs. A corp can be considered as weak as its' weakest member in many ways.
Come back give Eve University a try, also realize even Eve University was at War for a good part of January due to a rogue / pirate corp declaring war on us, and the rest of the Big Blue. When at war NO corp should really be doing any recruiting with out MASSIVE background/intel checks. Especially one like EU that is chock full of n00bs like me (after 3 mos).
Joining Eve Uni is definately a good advice. You'll find a lot of friendly ppl in there that want to help. Also a lot of older players who have left Eve Uni who still hang out in the public chat channel.
I spent about a month in Eve Uni before I joined a relatively new Industrial corp that wasnt too picky on who to recruit and I have been have been having a lot of fun with them, and I am getting good isk in the process.
I'd like to suggest you try again and I am sure you will meet the nicer ppl in game, really there are plenty of them out there
.
I'm not in any hurry to join a corp. The way I see it, I can do much better on my own. Money can come easy with a little patience and some forethought. Maybe not freighterloads of ISKs, but then again, if I only have to worry about myself, my overhead is low.
Just yesterday I spotted a buy order for charges. So I bought at the station that was practically giving them away, loaded up my Bantam with its civ storage upgrade, and sold at about a 10% net. That kind of thing, and agent missions are giving me enough ISKs to where I can take some more chances. I'm just waiting until my skill levels catch up.
Its like the old Pet Shop Boys song, "there's a lot of opportunities, if you know when to take them." With so much out there that can be risky, and so much money that can be made from everywhere, why put one's finances in the hands of others to lose or squander?
The way I see it, the most important thing I can do right now is to build up my own personal portfolio of working capital (ships), assetts (goods), and skills (umm...skills). That way, its not like I am in a position to beg a corp for a position. Its the difference between going in as an employee, and going in as a partner.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
1: Corp theft is rampant and a being a corp thief is a viable profession for many.
2: Many corps require you to have 3mil SP as people get sick of teaching noobs how to survive only for them to leave quickly.
3: I used to play SWG, in EVE sympathy and pity are for the weak. Pity costs ISK and has cost people thier lives (and there is real loss in EVE, not some SWG BS).
4: If you want help in EVE you need to earn it like everything else, some people are more charitable than others.
5: Don't expect something for nothing in EVE, as the person you show charity to today will often be the scumbag looting your ship tomorrow.
6: Trust is for the foolish, you must earn it even once the corp has accepted you they still distrust you.
7: Money is power, and pece through superior firepower. Also Amarr are scum sucking pollips upon the anus of humanity!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
I just picked up Eve 5 days ago and I agree with being a bit lonely in it. Although I think the community has been great so far, my questions get answered by several peopleand each one gives a solid answer back. But with me not being in a corp, it's just me running and mining all alone. It does get lonely and if I wasnt such a goal oriented person(and the fact I bought the game not the trial) there is a good chance I would of dropped it. Joining a corp to me is a big jump up, and I still feel like i'm too new to the game to make a good choice on a corp. So I dont think its the community, because they have been great so far, as much as it's the games design. Most other mmorpg's start you out in a newb area and you run into other newbs all the time and is much easier to group up. Where here you are in space, and space is big.. you're not gonna run into to many people. I also seem to forget to look at local channel though.. so maybe it's my fault.
One of the problems with the paranoia in EVE and the general attitude of corps that they won't invite trial accounts (and I've experienced it too) is this:
Everyone says EVE isn't really fun unless you're in a corp. Which isn't really TRUE but it is a trueism. The problem is that when you're on a trial you're trying to see if you LIKE the game. But if the game isn't as fun when not in a corp how will those people on the trial ever find out how fun EVE is? Hmm?
Self defeating policy:
"No trials allowed" means "no true newbies" allowed. Which means you're making it HARDER for new players to enjoy the game, which means a lot of players who might have otherwise joined the game and really liked it have been brushed aside.
And many of the posters in this very thread have proven the OP's point quite well by the way they responded to his query. EVE's playerbase claims to be mature. But if they truely were they'd know that you don't respond to a question with a flamethrower.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
When it comes to joining a corp there are generally 3 ways to do it.
First is to use the in-game recruitment channel. I highly advise agianst it as this channel is just chaotic and filled with spam...it is the least resourceful method of joining a corp.
Second, use the EVE Online recruitment forums. This I highly recommend since things are a bit more organized and the majority of corps that are recruiting post their information there. The corps usually explain their recruitment policy and minimum requirements up front and as a bonus you'll start identifying some of the big name corps out there.
The third way is to make residence in a system near a 0.0 entrance and make friends with the locals. This is harder to do as a noob, but you'll be flying with people you enjoy being around.
Well I'm a couple of days into it, and this game is definately slow, but I've played allot of strategy games and I'm not going to hold that against it.
I spent most of last night doing delivery missions in a shuttle while reading a book, but I have a merlin now, and a mate told me to get a navy agent, that should pep things up a bit.
After I've gotten the hang of PVE combat I'll start using my mates A/C (he has lots of SP's & a few ships), and join Eve Uni. I'll give it a month, if it doesn't float my boat, c'est la vie.
Nick
The race doesn't always go to the swiftest, nor the battle to the strongest, but that's the way to bet.
Delivery missions can be boring, as can mining, but the combat missions can be challenging and lots of fun. After awhile even they can be boring as will happen with anything done repetitiousily for a long time. Keep mixing it up and get involved in PVP as soon as you feel your ready, and you will see where the real draw of this game can come from.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
All I can say is, don't expect pick-up groups and friendly greetings from random stangers in this game. This isn't your typical traditional MMORPG. Corps are paranoid and rightly so; there isn't any police force or lawyers to stop spies and corp sabotage. It's an every-man-for-himself world in EVE and you have to be careful of who you choose to place your trust in.