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Graphics Card Upgrade Help
Hi all, looking for some feedback/advice on upgrading my PC. I want to be able to run some of the newer games at 1080p decent settings with a steady non-dipping 45+ FPS. I don't care so much about all the graphical bells and whistles but 1920x1080 with a non-dipping framerate and things like good draw distance, etc. I'm looking at games like GTA V for example.
Current specs:
i5-4670k 3.4ghz (can't OC)
8GB ram
Win7 64 bit
SSD
560 Ti 1GB NVidia card
I'm thinking my video card is the "weak link" of my setup (correct me if I'm wrong there), and if it is I'm thinking about upgrading to a 970 gtx and I have some questions about that.
1) Is the 970 at about $325 a good value? I prefer NVidia cards but if there's a much better performance to value on an AMD I'd consider it.
2) Are there any current or upcoming sales on 970's anyone knows about? I checked newegg/amazon and $325-ish was about the best I could find, give or take a $10 rebate or something.
3) I found many different 970 cards, some say OC, some have this or that feature, are there any major differences? Can someone recommend a specific 970 card? I prefer to buy from Amazon if possible since I have credit on my account there, but if there's a much better deal elsewhere that's fine.
4) I read that the 970 actually uses less power than my 560 ti so my PSU should be fine, but does it generate substantially more heat?
Thanks!
Comments
What about the rest of your specs? What motherboard do you have, what power supply, and what case? And which SSD is that, exactly?
As a general rule, for any computer part, power used = heat output. It's conservation of energy.
Motherboard is a asus b85m-g. Its a very basic board I think (doesn't allow CPU overclocking) but otherwise performs fine. Not sure what my PSU is, its definitely not a high-end or pricey one but if it works fine with the 560 ti it should work fine with a 970 since it has lower power req. right? SSD is a Samsung 840 series. And case is just a random case I salvaged and cleaned up. Doesn't have the best airflow but if the 970 is less heat than the 560 again, should be fine. As far as the card fitting that might be an issue, the card I have now is 9.37 x 4.37 x 1.46 inches and it fits ok.
So any thoughts on the 970?
The GeForce GTX 970 is a good choice if you're heat or power bound. But if that's not an issue, I'd sooner get this:
http://www.amazon.com/HIS-iPower-2XDLDVI-D-Graphics-H290QMC4GD/dp/B00KGJXWM8/ref=sr_1_2?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1424131338&sr=1-2&keywords=Radeon+R9+290
That's out of stock on Amazon, but not elsewhere:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161459
That's nearly as fast as the GTX 970, but a whole lot cheaper.
But again, exactly which power supply and case do you have? If you don't know what power supply you have, open it up and read the label.
For a case, the exact brand name and model doesn't matter so much. That's more about space and airflow. How many case fans do you have, how big are they (120 mm and 80 mm are the most common sizes), where are they placed, and are they blowing air in or out? Sometimes a case with inadequate airflow can have the airflow "fixed" by adding a $7 fan.
Ok did more research: here's my PSU - HEC Group 550W 80+ bronze model HEC-550TB.
I also took a couple pictures of my case, looks like I've got 1 inflow fan (80mm?) and 1 outflow (80mm?) on the back of the case, not counting the pSU fan. Also just using stock intel cpu cooler, but I've never had any heating problems with the CPU or GPU, even under load.
Here's a couple awesome case pics:
http://imgur.com/XQ9B0bW,S6w8XkK (2 pics in that 1 link, front and back)
EDIT: you have to paste this link into your browser not click on it, no idea.
So a couple follow up questions. *IF* my PSU can handle the 290 you linked, how much worse performance is that from the 970? Passmark has it rated substantially lower by about 25%, a large difference, but I don't know how accurately that translates to gaming performance. Secondly, if my PSU can't handle the 290 you linked, or if the performance is significantly worse, what specific 970 would you recommend for best value/performance? Is one model better than another in terms of core clocks and whatever else differs?
Thanks!
I may not post on this forum too much but hardware upgrades are a thing I greatly understand.
Under the circumstances unless you wish to upgrade your power supply anyways you're facing the exact same price. The power require for a GTX 970 is 145 watts at full draw while the 290 is 300 watts at full power. That's more than double and frankly your PSU just won't take it.
Even if you find a cheap 290, which during video card purchasing myself, I found to be on average 270 dollars plus then you've got a minimum of 75 for the power supply. This are sales numbers so expect at least an extra 10% on each.
The GTX 970 you can find for 330. It will draw less power and frankly it gets WAYY less hot. Which means not only do you not have to invest in as great/expensive of a case fan operation but you don't have to worry about micromanaging it.
It also supports faaaarrr better anti-aliasing numbers in benchmarks and supports DX12 right out of the box, which is going to be amazing when it's ready. The R9 290 doesn't support all features. It will still run a D12 game but it's not going to support all the features. So it's just more future proof.
Frankly only one thing is a disadvantage. If you're doing 4K gaming with ultra high resolutions there is some slowdown when you hit past the 3.5 gb mark of your video cards memory. It's just the way it's designed, not fixed by a driver. It really only happens in certain extreme gaming circumstances (3840 x 2160) with ultra textures. It can result in some stuttering. But frankly NO card right now handles 60 fps with 3840 x 2160 resolutions and ultra everything. If you want an example I hit 2560 x 1440 resolution on Shadows of Mordor with everything ultra and I did not experience this innate slowdown. When bumping to 3840 x 2160 I went from 35fps to 28fps. Even at that performance it beats what the R9 290 would have offered.
Considering your circumstances, in short:
GTX 970 is faster, better, cheaper and draws less power per year than the Radeon equivilent and it's more(albeit not perfect) future proof than the R9 290. It also requires less management and has neat features Radeon cards don't have like DSR(run the game at a higher resolution but shrink it for a smaller monitor to look better) and PhysX(eye candy but cool).
Buy the GTX 970
SaviorsHand thanks for the detailed reply! Can you perhaps recommend me a specific 970 card? (preferably from amazon)
I see so many models with various core clocks, some OC, some this feature, some that feature. Don't really know which is the best 970 for performance + value. Thanks!
Go to tomshardware website. They have been testing cards for decades (and providing feedback to manufacturers).
They review cards; update their best buy recommendations monthly and - because they know prices change etc. - group "similar" cards together to help you get an idea of whether a particular card represents "good value".
To check further go to the AMD and / or NVidia websites - even if you are not buying one of "their" cards you will probably be buying their chip-sets. They have information on what the recommended e.g. power requirements are. suggested memory specs etc. - the reference build.
The companies - other than NVidia and AMD - who make the cards will tweak them by e.g. OCing - but usually these are only marginal gains; the "big gains" come from going up to the next-gen chip set. That is where the groupings on tomshardware site helps.
If you're looking for more proof to show that it's not all hot talk here's a good link with several games tested.
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_970_Gaming/
As for types or models MSI shows to be slightly ahead of EVGA and GIGABYTE. ASUS has always had reliable products but you're going to pay a premium for it.
MSI: http://www.amazon.com/MSI-GTX-970-GAMING-4G/dp/B00NN0GEXQ/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1424136886&sr=8-4&keywords=gtx+970
If cheaper price is more important than amazon there's:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127833&cm_re=970-_-14-127-833-_-Product
With the promo code of FEBYSFD it's $319.99 and free shipping is available(even without premier).
That's like 60 bucks of a better deal than the R9 290. If it makes you feel any better knowing, I bought the newegg card I just posted a month ago. I use it in my main computer.
(Edited Mistyped week, meant month)
Everything thats been said has been great advice. They are correct if you go with a 290 you WILL need a new power supply.
The nicest thing about the new maxwell's is how power efficient they are. That means less heat generated, less power used, which reduces the need for a high end case, etc.
Also, anandtech.com is a fantastic website. I switched from tomshardware to anandtech in about 2007 as my primary source of tech related news/reviews. Thats not to say i dont trust toms, or a myriad other sites, i just tend to find what i need on anandtech, and they are rock solid reliable.
A GTX 970 would be a fantastic upgrade to your system, you don't need a new CPU, your Mobo is fine if you don't plan or intend to do any OC'ing.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
The "power supply requirements" that the GPU manufacturers recommend are pretty bogus - they don't know if you have a good PSU or a crappy one that will explode, so they vastly overestimate the amount of wattage required for your power supply and just hope you won't blame it on them if it does happen to be a crappy one that explodes.
I'm leary of Tom's myself, but a lot of people find good info over there. Personally, I'm a fan of HardOCP, and if an item there wins an award or even just comes recommended, it's pretty darn good - they don't hand them out often - although they tend to have a slightly different target audience than Tom's.
The power supply, apparently, is okay:
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/ADATA-BN-550-Power-Supply-Review/1268/1
Not very good, but it stays in spec and isn't an obvious danger to your system. So while I wouldn't have recommended buying it in the first place, neither is there an urgent need to replace it.
The case, on the other hand, really isn't appropriate to a gaming rig. If all you've got is two 80 mm case fans right next to each other, with one blowing air in and the other blowing air out, you don't have much case airflow. You'd probably be better off with both blowing air out and air coming in through vents that don't have a fan--assuming the case has appropriate other vents, which even cheap cases usually do, but a 12 year old case might not.
If you're dead set on keeping your current case rather than getting one appropriate to a gaming rig, you'd do well to get a video card that helps with case airflow. Internal exhaust models (which is most of them) spray heat off in every which direction. That's fine if you've got a lot of general case airflow, but a problem in your case. An external exhaust model like one of these will dump much of the video card heat right out of the case:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133564
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127835
The heatsink that covers the GPU is roughly in the middle of the card. Notice how in both cards, there's a fan at the front of the card, a big vent at the back, and the rest of the card is mostly covered. That's what an external exhaust model looks like. The fan draws in air at the front, blows it across the heatsink where it picks up heat, and then the hot air goes out the back of the card and thus right out of the case. That's what you want for your case.
Yes, that's New Egg, not Amazon. Amazon probably has a similar deal. But their search function is so broken that I'm not willing to find it for you.
You're substantially exaggerating the difference in power consumption. The Radeon R9 290 has a TDP of 275 W, not 300 W, with PowerTune to ensure that it won't use more than that for thermally significant periods of time. In practice, it usually won't touch 275 W, though it will in some cases, and you do have to plan around it. The GTX 970, on the other had, will clock up to actually hit the 145 W TDP a lot more often. The GTX 970 is more efficient than the R9 290, but not twice as efficient.
That said, with the original poster's case, the Radeon R9 290 doesn't have to use twice as much power as the GTX 970 to be a problem. It does use quite a bit more, and enough to be a problem, so this is a situation where the power consumption matters enough in a desktop to make the GTX 970 the clear recommendation.
The power supply would likely be fine with a Radeon R9 290 if everything were cooled well. But "likely" isn't the same thing as "nearly guaranteed", and everything isn't going to be cooled well, so I wouldn't risk the R9 290 with that power supply in that case.
anandtech are a good site as well - more "technical" orientated usually. Give both a read - won't take long and will also help you decide whether the extra performance is worth the price premium.
And the Maxwell chip is impressive in my experience; as a result of using less power - so less heat - so the case fan works less - so blissfully "quiet".
Also the MSI Razer fan design is very good at getting rid of heat as well.
You're right here I stand corrected on the power information, it is 275 watts and not 300. I was looking at a different model. I will admit when I'm wrong.
My recommend is basically on the psu and overall considerations at hand, to be fair. This is not a "clear winner" situation if we were looking at a case of a stronger power supply. The 290 is proven to be a great card, and while it comes with it's own share of differences it IS the cheaper product on it's own, by about 60 bucks. Additionally I can say that AMD has some wonderful things in line for it's graphics cards in the future as long as programmers actually invest into fleshing them out in the modern market. I still recommend the 970 overall, even if a person had a high end power supply, but it would be more of a personal preference in that case rather than cost vs performance.
In this case however, GTX 970 for sure. You'd have to beef up the PSU and change out the case. Paying more for arguably less performance.
Offtopic:
Just FYI - try out Hoverhound. It lets you search on Newegg, and then links to the same product on Amazon.
It's not 100% accurate, but it's close enough for casual use. It also has a nifty price chart function, so you can see how the prices have changed over time.
In my personal experience, I wouldn't touch Radeon with a 10-foot pole. I have lost two top of the line Radeons (during its respective release dates) due to overheating.
That being said, go 970. It'll fit your rig like a glove, no hassle.
Because nVidia never overheats.
Next we'll be hearing about how the drivers are so much better. Or Physx...
/sigh
Nearly all video cards do a decent job of getting heat off of the GPU chip and away from the card. It's getting the heat out of the case that I'm more worried about here, as he's not going to get much help from the case.
-----
I would argue that spending $330 on a video card while being unwilling to spend $50 to get a decent gaming case is a mistake. I could understand salvaging old cases if you're desperately trying to fit a sub-$500 budget for the entire computer. But not if you've got $330 to spend on a video card.
I rarely post but I have been building computers for almost 20 years fwiw.
The PSU
Go with the 970.
A little more expensive but it will work with your current PSU and should put off less heat.
U didn't check thorough enough or acidently overlooked it, the HEC 550TB aka ADATA BN-550 has 2x6/8 pin pci-e connectors on different cables, which is exactly how much a 290 needs.
The exact psu has 2 12v rails with first one rated @ fake 28 amps with second rated @ 20 amps, the combined rated wattage for both rails(probably a single rail split into 2), is 480W which is 480W/12V=40A, so both rails have access to actual 40 rather 48A.
R9 290 TDP is 275W which is 275W/12V=29.92A, so at max usage there is exactly 10amps or 120 watts headroom, which isn't a lot, i usually prefer to have atleast half the value of the cards TDP in amps of headroom, to account for PSU degradation, and non premium components, however 10A is plenty and would do the job fine.
Appreciate the replies folks. I went ahead and ordered:
http://www.amazon.com/MSI-GTX-970-4GD5T-OC/dp/B00NN0GIA0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1424140353&sr=8-2&keywords=msi+gtx+970
Which is an MSI 970 that I think is slightly overclocked, for $320+ tax after rebate. Hopefully it was a good choice. I had $200 in amazon credit which is why I went with amazon over newegg.
One quick follow-up to some of the replies though - I know my case is extremely dated and doesn't have the best airflow. But, if under prolonged max load for the applications/games I run, if my CPU and GPU both stay within safe, standard temp ranges, and never anything even close to throttle/shutdown range, does it really matter? From my understanding, keeping my processor at 50c instead of 60c under load isn't going to improve its performance at all, and won't extend its lifespan in any meaningful way for example.
OP, any time u need in the future, when you're choosing power supplies find a picture of it, or it's specs and find out the max combined wattage for the 12v rails no matter how many of them are, that is the amount of wattage you have to work with when connecting a graphics card to it
, just divide it by the 12v of the rail and u have how many amps u have to work with 
It's the easiest math ever, and u will never be in doubt if any supply can run any card ever again, tdp wise
The drivers ARE better, there has been literally MOUNTAINS of evidence to support that. AMD only recently got their shit together in the last couple of years after they were FORCED to fix their drivers when some prominent people in the industry discovered they were half assing things and it was causing micro-stuttering.
As far as nvidia cards not overheating, that hasn't been a problem since the 4xx series cards. Every card Nvidia has released since then has not had any heat issues. Now statistically speaking yes people are gonna get defective products, but that affects both nvidia and amd, so thats a moot point.
I used to be a hardcore AMD video card fan, but me and my entire group of friends stopped using us after several of us had issues, either hardware or driver issues with AMD cards MULTIPLE times. I gave ATI a chance for several generations and has consistent issues with them, switched to nvidia and haven't looked back since.
In my entire history of video cards (which has been since the days when video cards had 8mb of ram), the ONLY driver related issue i've had with an nvidia card was back in the FX series days, i had a couple cards which for some reason wouldn't ramp the fan up past 70% with the stock driver, so i had to use a utility to set manual fan stuff. That was almost 10 years ago. Since then, zero issues.
That being said, i don't neccesarily see anything wrong with AMD cards, they generally represent a good value for price/perf, but the tradeoff is heat generated and power usage.
PHYSX on the other hand was and is a joke. God, i remember when companies were selling $200 seperate PHYSX cards talking about how it would be the wave of the future and such.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche