If you're main focus is to be on 'the pvp mentality', then you need to more clearly define what you think that means.
or maybe, considering the terminology was very clear, it is up to others to ask if they do not understand instead of leaping to the kind of hostile argument that we have seen here in this thread?
PvP is a game mechanic.
It is. But the culture it breeds isn't.
Simply put.
If by 'very clear' you mean this: "Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought." then I fear you misunderstand my post entirely. If you were referring to a different phrase somewhere else in the thread, then I apologize, and a quote / page number would definitely be appreciated. There is absolutely nothing 'hostile' in what a posted. Just logic. Simply put; If you're trying to host an argument based on the stance that something you believe exists, you need to first show that it does.
Assuming that is the correct phrase, it is not clear enough. It mentions generalizations, yet fails to mention why you think this pertains to PvP, or to provide examples of 'the culture it breeds'.
- That said, going off your 'clear definition', you're stance is that PvP breeds an environment in which people act before thinking, and react without thought. And yet, this is exactly the opposite of what PvP games promote. You can take any of the top PvP games, and what separates the better players from the rest is decision making, tactics, and practice. Twitch skills do play an important factor (primarily in non-objective based FPS games), but those skills are often overemphasized by players of lower-skill.
This is why you get a lot of rage from higher Elo (MMR) players who get placed in games with people of low Elo / MMR. Because less experienced players don't understand the forethought, the planning involved. They don't connect action A to results B & C. They play for kills, and then wonder why they are losing when they gave up uncontested objectives.
That said, how is that behavior any different than raiding? Do people not also get mad when they bring in a newbie to a raid, who does not know the fight, and hasn't planned accordingly? Because I've seen this happen in every MMO I've played with high-end PvE.
It's a form of ignorance, and while it is indeed toxic, it is not limited to games of one mechanic or another.
Twitch pvp was the ONLY pvp, at one time,so to say it is the future is ridiculous.A standard core idea is never the end all,there is ALWAYS room to improve an idea.
There is no such thing as a steadfast design only steadfast devs without an open mind on creativity.
Take a look at SOE "Daybroke",i have said it MANY times,they are NOT a creative developer,not at all.Well their latest pvp H1Z1 ,NOBODY or at least VERY few are playing it for the design it was meant to be >>>>ZOMBIE survival game.99% are playing it like it is just another Counterstrike,nobody cares one bit about the Zombies.
Also BR is so ANTI game design.You drop in out of a plane in parachutes LMAO,what the heck does that have to do with Zombie survival?If you can afford to fly in and parachute you can certainly come with a gun already in hand,last thing you would do is drop in among zombies empty handed,it is just such a dumb design.
Point is pvp has become soooooooooooo dumb down it is always just Counterstrike in a different setting.Even worse is 90% of the time,players are standing out in the open ,no cover often times spamming to get lucky.I seriously do not see the intrigue in playing pvp like that,i guess it is a nice EASY design for good players to have it easy mode versus so many non pvp players just joining in for the popularity.
I have not seen one game improve on the first 4 or so pvp games that started all of this Unreal,Quake,HL,CS,COD.Everything outside of those games has been a terrible pvp design.I tried watching some Gears of War last night,the combat was so fast,i could barely follow it,made my eyes hurt.
The ONLY thing i enjoy about most of these games are some of the streamers are VERY entertaining,streamers often make a 3/10 game a 7/10.Devs should be paying the streamers because it is them who are making bad games popular.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Its not the pvp that has hurt the genre, its that developers link pvp to ffa loot systems and sandbox gameplay. That seems to have created 2 things; 1. bitterness from a lot of people who enjoy sandbox gameplay and a open crafting world, and 2. games that cater to the lowest common denominator. These ffa loot gankfests that come out now seem designed for the griefers. Hard to attract new players when they are farmed like a resources.
If they could make a game with pvp that actually mattered, but make it voluntary as part of a larger sandbox world, I think it wouldn't be a problem (other than the endless class balance crying, but Rome wasn't built in a day). The way SWG did it was pretty good.
Its not the pvp that has hurt the genre, its that developers link pvp to ffa loot systems and sandbox gameplay. That seems to have created 2 things; 1. bitterness from a lot of people who enjoy sandbox gameplay and a open crafting world, and 2. games that cater to the lowest common denominator. These ffa loot gankfests that come out now seem designed for the griefers. Hard to attract new players when they are farmed like a resources.
If they could make a game with pvp that actually mattered, but make it voluntary as part of a larger sandbox world, I think it wouldn't be a problem (other than the endless class balance crying, but Rome wasn't built in a day). The way SWG did it was pretty good.
Except that it's usually the players who make these links, not the developers.
The developers are almost always doing what they think people will play (aka buy). Any developer that is worth anything knows what the term sandbox actually means, they understand that game mechanics are tool towards building a game, and not necessarily required features.
Players, on the other hand, make demands. They insist that game X must have features A, B, & C or else it's 'not a true game'. Players also frequently confuse the term 'sandbox' with the terms 'open world', 'seamless', and 'FFA'. All of these are clearly different things, but sometimes they get marketed as the same, because that's how players view them.
There has only been a handfull of pvp focused mmorpgs and even less good ones. What I've found if done right Wushu, the game turns into a virtual world with things like trade, and risk reward. A world where it's all about the players not the npcs.
What I've also found is that some people have an actual fear of pvp. A npc can kick their butts for hours weeks on end, but if a person does it the suffer actual mental trauma.
edit- to OPs social question EVE and Wushu are the most social games I've ever played.
have you really played Age of Wushuu after they came out of beta? You say it is "social" when they ask 1 cash shop gold for every attempt to write on area chat, trade chat, general chat and world chat? that is your idea of a game that encourages social behavior? Apparently you played the game in alpha and beta when they handed out free cash shop gold and it was easy to do whatever you wanted. After it was released it was not even close to a game that was worth playing. As someone in other thread talked about cooking and eating there were lots of stuff locked behind cash shop. Age of Wushuu is a horrible pay2win crap and one of the most unsocial mmog i have ever played.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Point is pvp has become soooooooooooo dumb down it is always just Counterstrike in a different setting.Even worse is 90% of the time,players are standing out in the open ,no cover often times spamming to get lucky.I seriously do not see the intrigue in playing pvp like that,i guess it is a nice EASY design for good players to have it easy mode versus so many non pvp players just joining in for the popularity.
I have not seen one game improve on the first 4 or so pvp games that started all of this Unreal,Quake,HL,CS,COD.Everything outside of those games has been a terrible pvp design.I tried watching some Gears of War last night,the combat was so fast,i could barely follow it,made my eyes hurt.
The ONLY thing i enjoy about most of these games are some of the streamers are VERY entertaining,streamers often make a 3/10 game a 7/10.Devs should be paying the streamers because it is them who are making bad games popular.
First off, allow me to change your metaphor to say 'it is always just like Call Of Duty'. CS still has objective based gameplay, even if it is minimal compared to many other PvP games. COD has devolved into an IP that is basically all about kills and killstreaks.
That said, you're very much right. And as someone who enjoys PvP games (amongst other things) It frustrates me to no end. It's a problem I've been dealing w/ lately in SMITE. In order to play with players who understand the basic game mechanics you have to go pretty high up on the skill-brackets. The vast majority of players just run around with their brains turned off wondering why they're losing, or thinking they are the sh*t when they've done basically nothing of value.
This is a trend in a lot of games I've been seeing. Too many players unwilling to learn basic game mechanics, and instead just want to shut off their brain and autopilot. I understand the appeal, I just wish it would stay out of teambased gameplay. It's annoying when you're fate is shared with others, and part of your team are essentially vegetables.
Let's look at the last decade. A decade where to PvP mentality has dominated.
A decade where we have seen the PvP mentality demand that tab is dead and that twitch is the future again and again (yeah, looking at you Murphy!).
Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought.
Where has that brought us, really?
Are our communities better? Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier? Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?
Where has PvP, PvP, PvP brought us in the end?
You're falsely attributing that to "PVP mentality", as if PvE players are action gameplay averse which is... silly.
I know labels are a big thing here, but you seem to be barking up an odd tree with this one.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Let's look at the last decade. A decade where the PvP mentality has dominated.
A decade where we have seen the PvP mentality demand that tab is dead and that twitch is the future again and again (yeah, looking at you Murphy!).
Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought.
Where has that brought us, really?
Are our communities better? Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier? Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?
Where has PvP, PvP, PvP brought us in the end?
I'm not really certain that I would agree with "PVP mentality has dominated". The most successful MMO's over the last 10 years are not really PvP games at their core. Sure, PvP is there, but I wouldn't say they are pvp-centric games. At the end of the day I personally believe a shift has been made over the last 10 years with PvE being the focus of most MMO's, as this drives their revenue. The PvP centered games are not having a lot of big dollar luck. This discussion should really be about the shift to the FTP, early alpha/beta paid access, Kickstarter trends that seem to be where this genre is heading. I think Pvp is the last thing people should worry about.
First off, thanks for the reasonable mature response. It's appreciated.
To be clear, it was not said that PvP games have dominated, it was said that that the PvP mentality has, which is not the same thing.
I think many in this thread have missed that point.
you say this but then you stated earlier that competitive raiding(or crafting for that matter when warrented) ) wasn't part of your "PVP mentality....so im alittle confused because basically anything competitive(as in non-coop) would be considered the "PvP" mentality( player against player). PKing is PvP, but all PvP isn't pking bro.
i think whats actually happened is ~2005-2006 mmorpgs hit that critical mass where they went from being a niche experience to a cultural norm...and the people with the co-op mentality got drowned out completely by people with the competitive "PvP" mentality because its instilled in our culture(almost globally) to be competitive in every aspect of our lives(like work, school, sports, wealth, etc).
also i don't think twitch based combat really has anything to do with pvp/nonpvp mentality.instead it has more to do with the younger generations dwindling attention span and ability to multi task. Another reason i think also comes down to cultural norms ie. action combat being more interesting then rock>scissors>paper>rock traditional trinity....in the same sense as watching professional sports is more interesting then watching professional chess for the bulk of the population.
I'm not really sure what mindset you have to be in to think they were all PVP-focused. PVP is always an afterthought (and that's fitting, since RPG PVP is fundamentally a type of casual PVP which is a lot less popular than skill-centric PVP games.)
If you focus on PVE, even games which have a relatively clear PVP focus (GW2) end up being pretty enjoyable. Perhaps not long-lived, because I never quite figured out what I should care about doing at max level, but a better return on investment than most MMORPGs, for purely PVE purposes.
I guess I don't feel most other MMORPGs have a PVP focus, but maybe that's because they're far beyond my even considering playing them for PVP (whereas at least with GW2 there was a vague sense that maybe some of the non-skill factors were stripped out -- so maybe PVP might've been good.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
pvp isn't to blame for the sad state of the mmo community. in fact, i can point my finger at one specific game that turned things toxic. WoW.
you see, when you go from maybe 500,000 active players in a community ('98-2004) to 10+ million, you are bound to find some real treasures. the population explosion is what has put us where we are, end of thread.
it's the natural evolution of things. find your little scrap of happiness and cling to it, just like everybody else. nothing stays the same forever.
Well as years passes by, PvP became different since there are other MMORPG games that had been risen from left to right. We've seen a lot of changes when it comes to PvP, strategically speaking, the one way strategy before had been changed also due to different components of a game. Whether it is class/race base, item base, skills, contrast of each others's character and etc. But some of us now doesn't focus much about the PvP but then, they are focused on graphics, gameplay, long term and short term goals, flashy effects and etc.
By the same logic you would say a 2D fighting game like supersmash/streetfighter are games for idiots.
The entrance of action MMORPGs should be welcomed, rather than frawned upon. It leads to much more interesting, skill based PvP that can be enjoyable to watch for spectators and have an immense amount of depth. To me, personaly, it's tab targetting that was the system for no-brainers, where all you needed to do is know the rotations and when to use them. With action mmos and the decrease in the number of skills, they have been made much more specific and greatly working to react against other skills. It makes for MUCH more interesting combat with a good learning curve, rather than in tab targetting system, where the main learning curve is 1. learn all the good rotations of you class. 2. Learn all the main skills of other classes to know when to pop a debuff/buff. That's it. In action systems we have MUCH more emphasis on Yomi, mechanics, positioning, fighting styles, tempo. It's stubbornnes and being stuck in the past that stops people from seeing the good in action systems.
Regarding the focus on PvP, I do agree that it has become a little bit too much of a focal point in modern mmos. More resources should be spent in making well working PvE systems that would nicely tie into PvP. I always enjoyed the idea of pvp and pve systems that would not be mutualy exclusive, but, rather, depend on each other. I heavily dislike that pvp gear mostly comes from pvp nowadays, rather than from crafting, which would create a great cooperative system of pvp'ers supplying crafters with specific mats to make them pvp gear etc etc. The 2 systems are too disconnected nowadays. Look at GW2. They literaly made 3 different play modes each having 0 tie with the other, except for character progression.
I'm the hardcore player, the one that rushes lvl cap before you even finish the starting area.
Instead of gamer's asking for content and design,the ONLY TWO things i hear talked about over and over,is open world pvp and looting,NOTHING else.You can't get a more shallow design than that but if players are going to hand over their money for sloppy game design,the developers are more than happy to take it.
You would THINK players would be asking for meaningful buildings/structures to pvp with,more realistic movement like climbing,better physics ect ect,nope i just want to pvp and i don't care how crappy the game is,heck i'll stand in the open and just spam my gun until i die,i don't care....btw how much money you want from me,take it all,i am a dumb ass gamer.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I can't even believe this thread is real. Only PvP games I can recall are Darkfall, Guild wars 1&2, Archeage... PS2...Aion I guess..basically it.
Pretty much all other MMOs are PvE-centered themeparks. WoW, SWTOR, Wildstar, Lotro, Rift, ESO, EQ2, TERA, FFXIV, TSW and all the other less-than-AAA MMOs to be released.
Then you are just another one not understanding the difference between PvP games and PvP mentality.
You can't believe the question being asked because, simply, you haven't understood it.
Nobody can understand the question because it is nonsense. You have a personal definition of a phrase "PvP mentality" that nobody else uses or understands. What does it mean? Can you explain it? Do you even know?
So far, I am feeling that i am discussing this with posters that have never known any different than the last decade that I am questioning.
And, ofc, those folks are emotionally defending the thing that they know, so meaningful conversation is a kind of dead there.
I guess i can only refer you back to the OP.
Aren't you emotionally defending what you want to be true?
What pvp games have there really been in the last 10 years? And that "brought us here"?
Shadowbane, the lineage series, DAoC, though I do believe that's RVR and people don't have to be subject to pvp ...
World of Warcraft (not a pvp game and there are servers that are completely pve)
City of heroes, not a pvp game but has pvp
Guild Wars, small group consensual pvp and a completely separate pve side
um ...
Warhammer, consensual pvp
So I suppose we have
Shadowbane, Lineage series, EVE, Darkfall, Mortal Online for PvP games that are ffa, DAoC for RVR, some faction based pvp games where you can avoid pvp.
And then every other mmo with pvp that isn't in the spotlight.
Now let's look at your post.
A decade where we have seen the PvP mentality demand that tab is dead and that twitch is the future again and again (yeah, looking at you Murphy!).
I've hated Tabing to next combatant in EVERY game I've ever played, pvp or pve. Tabbing doens't add anything to combat it's just a way to pick an opponent.
Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought.
This is a ridiculous statement. Deliberation is part of combat, so is thought. Take some martial arts and experience it instead if just saying things to say them.
Where has that brought us, really?
Are our communities better?
I've been in pve games with some horrible players. I've experienced horrible players on pve servers.
Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier?
Some of the best "social aspects" I've ever had in an mmo were in Lineage 2. People banding together as families (clans) and really working for and with each other.
Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?
Transience in mmo's has nothing to do with pvp, toxicity is for those players who are dominated with personal issues, pvp or pve, and there is no push toward pvp dominated design. There just happen to be less mmo's coming out and only a few in the spotlight that seem to have a pvp focus. Korean games tend to have a lot of pvp, Crowfall is made by the shadowbane guys and they are making the game they want to make which is the way it should be instead of making a game to please everyone except them, Everquest Next is not a pvp game, And what what else is there really?
Where has PvP, PvP, PvP brought us in the end?
It brought us your post but a post that really isn't thought through and is just about your dislike of pvp. Which is more of argument born of emotion.
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I can't even believe this thread is real. Only PvP games I can recall are Darkfall, Guild wars 1&2, Archeage... PS2...Aion I guess..basically it.
Pretty much all other MMOs are PvE-centered themeparks. WoW, SWTOR, Wildstar, Lotro, Rift, ESO, EQ2, TERA, FFXIV, TSW and all the other less-than-AAA MMOs to be released.
Then you are just another one not understanding the difference between PvP games and PvP mentality.
You can't believe the question being asked because, simply, you haven't understood it.
I think I did understand it.
You feel most gamers these days want MMOs to be Counter-strike, twitchy and no strategy or tact. This isn't true; we want experiences that only player vs player can provide, it does not have to be twitchy or action oriented, only higher stakes. PvE players push for similar combat styles as PvP players.
You think that people are becoming more competitive instead of cooperative and you would be correct. Good luck inhibiting human competition.
Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
So far, I am feeling that i am discussing this with posters that have never known any different than the last decade that I am questioning.
And, ofc, those folks are emotionally defending the thing that they know, so meaningful conversation is a kind of dead there.
I guess i can only refer you back to the OP.
Aren't you emotionally defending what you want to be true?
What pvp games have there really been in the last 10 years? And that "brought us here"?
Shadowbane, the lineage series, DAoC, though I do believe that's RVR and people don't have to be subject to pvp ...
World of Warcraft (not a pvp game and there are servers that are completely pve)
City of heroes, not a pvp game but has pvp
Guild Wars, small group consensual pvp and a completely separate pve side
um ...
Warhammer, consensual pvp
So I suppose we have
Shadowbane, Lineage series, EVE, Darkfall, Mortal Online for PvP games that are ffa, DAoC for RVR, some faction based pvp games where you can avoid pvp.
And then every other mmo with pvp that isn't in the spotlight.
Now let's look at your post.
A decade where we have seen the PvP mentality demand that tab is dead and that twitch is the future again and again (yeah, looking at you Murphy!).
I've hated Tabing to next combatant in EVERY game I've ever played, pvp or pve. Tabbing doens't add anything to combat it's just a way to pick an opponent.
Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought.
This is a ridiculous statement. Deliberation is part of combat, so is thought. Take some martial arts and experience it instead if just saying things to say them.
Where has that brought us, really?
Are our communities better?
I've been in pve games with some horrible players. I've experienced horrible players on pve servers.
Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier?
Some of the best "social aspects" I've ever had in an mmo were in Lineage 2. People banding together as families (clans) and really working for and with each other.
Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?
Transience in mmo's has nothing to do with pvp, toxicity is for those players who are dominated with personal issues, pvp or pve, and there is no push toward pvp dominated design. There just happen to be less mmo's coming out and only a few in the spotlight that seem to have a pvp focus. Korean games tend to have a lot of pvp, Crowfall is made by the shadowbane guys and they are making the game they want to make which is the way it should be instead of making a game to please everyone except them, Everquest Next is not a pvp game, And what what else is there really?
Where has PvP, PvP, PvP brought us in the end?
It brought us your post but a post that really isn't thought through and is just about your dislike of pvp. Which is more of argument born of emotion.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Instead of gamer's asking for content and design,the ONLY TWO things i hear talked about over and over,is open world pvp and looting,NOTHING else.You can't get a more shallow design than that but if players are going to hand over their money for sloppy game design,the developers are more than happy to take it.
You would THINK players would be asking for meaningful buildings/structures to pvp with,more realistic movement like climbing,better physics ect ect,nope i just want to pvp and i don't care how crappy the game is,heck i'll stand in the open and just spam my gun until i die,i don't care....btw how much money you want from me,take it all,i am a dumb ass gamer.
I THINK you are wrong, the only thing we have seen is they can't make CONTENT as fast as the PvE people burn through it. SHALLOW is what I call a game with RAIDS you have to run 1000 TIMES to get the next shiny instead of setting up the world for PLAYERS to make their own CONTENT. Open world PvP and looting provide more content than any PvE game on rails could ever provide. Every game since WoW has shown this, PvE end game is a dead end.
Let's look at the last decade. A decade where to PvP mentality has dominated.
A decade where we have seen the PvP mentality demand that tab is dead and that twitch is the future again and again (yeah, looking at you Murphy!).
Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought.
Where has that brought us, really?
Are our communities better? Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier? Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?
Where has PvP, PvP, PvP brought us in the end?
From my perspective, PvP has always been a constant in mmorpg's. Currently the MMO genre is very watered down but if you actually ponder the older MMO's for a bit...
Ultima - PvP
EQ - PvP servers
DAoC - PvP
Asherons Call - PvP Servers
Shadowbane - PvP
Anarchy Online - PvP
WoW - PvP servers (hell faction warfare is in the core theme of the game)
You claim that there is some kind of focus on PvP over the last decade and I would argue that PvP isnt more nor less of a focus than when the genre was created. You also allude to PvP and twitch or action based combat are synonymous. I would argue that PvP and twitch combat should be treated as separate things. Twitch combat is becoming more of a focus simply due to hardware evolution.
Comments
If by 'very clear' you mean this: "Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought." then I fear you misunderstand my post entirely. If you were referring to a different phrase somewhere else in the thread, then I apologize, and a quote / page number would definitely be appreciated. There is absolutely nothing 'hostile' in what a posted. Just logic. Simply put; If you're trying to host an argument based on the stance that something you believe exists, you need to first show that it does.
Assuming that is the correct phrase, it is not clear enough. It mentions generalizations, yet fails to mention why you think this pertains to PvP, or to provide examples of 'the culture it breeds'.
- That said, going off your 'clear definition', you're stance is that PvP breeds an environment in which people act before thinking, and react without thought. And yet, this is exactly the opposite of what PvP games promote. You can take any of the top PvP games, and what separates the better players from the rest is decision making, tactics, and practice. Twitch skills do play an important factor (primarily in non-objective based FPS games), but those skills are often overemphasized by players of lower-skill.
This is why you get a lot of rage from higher Elo (MMR) players who get placed in games with people of low Elo / MMR. Because less experienced players don't understand the forethought, the planning involved. They don't connect action A to results B & C. They play for kills, and then wonder why they are losing when they gave up uncontested objectives.
That said, how is that behavior any different than raiding? Do people not also get mad when they bring in a newbie to a raid, who does not know the fight, and hasn't planned accordingly? Because I've seen this happen in every MMO I've played with high-end PvE.
It's a form of ignorance, and while it is indeed toxic, it is not limited to games of one mechanic or another.
Twitch pvp was the ONLY pvp, at one time,so to say it is the future is ridiculous.A standard core idea is never the end all,there is ALWAYS room to improve an idea.
There is no such thing as a steadfast design only steadfast devs without an open mind on creativity.
Take a look at SOE "Daybroke",i have said it MANY times,they are NOT a creative developer,not at all.Well their latest pvp H1Z1 ,NOBODY or at least VERY few are playing it for the design it was meant to be >>>>ZOMBIE survival game.99% are playing it like it is just another Counterstrike,nobody cares one bit about the Zombies.
Also BR is so ANTI game design.You drop in out of a plane in parachutes LMAO,what the heck does that have to do with Zombie survival?If you can afford to fly in and parachute you can certainly come with a gun already in hand,last thing you would do is drop in among zombies empty handed,it is just such a dumb design.
Point is pvp has become soooooooooooo dumb down it is always just Counterstrike in a different setting.Even worse is 90% of the time,players are standing out in the open ,no cover often times spamming to get lucky.I seriously do not see the intrigue in playing pvp like that,i guess it is a nice EASY design for good players to have it easy mode versus so many non pvp players just joining in for the popularity.
I have not seen one game improve on the first 4 or so pvp games that started all of this Unreal,Quake,HL,CS,COD.Everything outside of those games has been a terrible pvp design.I tried watching some Gears of War last night,the combat was so fast,i could barely follow it,made my eyes hurt.
The ONLY thing i enjoy about most of these games are some of the streamers are VERY entertaining,streamers often make a 3/10 game a 7/10.Devs should be paying the streamers because it is them who are making bad games popular.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Its not the pvp that has hurt the genre, its that developers link pvp to ffa loot systems and sandbox gameplay. That seems to have created 2 things; 1. bitterness from a lot of people who enjoy sandbox gameplay and a open crafting world, and 2. games that cater to the lowest common denominator. These ffa loot gankfests that come out now seem designed for the griefers. Hard to attract new players when they are farmed like a resources.
If they could make a game with pvp that actually mattered, but make it voluntary as part of a larger sandbox world, I think it wouldn't be a problem (other than the endless class balance crying, but Rome wasn't built in a day). The way SWG did it was pretty good.
Except that it's usually the players who make these links, not the developers.
The developers are almost always doing what they think people will play (aka buy). Any developer that is worth anything knows what the term sandbox actually means, they understand that game mechanics are tool towards building a game, and not necessarily required features.
Players, on the other hand, make demands. They insist that game X must have features A, B, & C or else it's 'not a true game'. Players also frequently confuse the term 'sandbox' with the terms 'open world', 'seamless', and 'FFA'. All of these are clearly different things, but sometimes they get marketed as the same, because that's how players view them.
have you really played Age of Wushuu after they came out of beta? You say it is "social" when they ask 1 cash shop gold for every attempt to write on area chat, trade chat, general chat and world chat? that is your idea of a game that encourages social behavior? Apparently you played the game in alpha and beta when they handed out free cash shop gold and it was easy to do whatever you wanted. After it was released it was not even close to a game that was worth playing. As someone in other thread talked about cooking and eating there were lots of stuff locked behind cash shop. Age of Wushuu is a horrible pay2win crap and one of the most unsocial mmog i have ever played.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
First off, allow me to change your metaphor to say 'it is always just like Call Of Duty'. CS still has objective based gameplay, even if it is minimal compared to many other PvP games. COD has devolved into an IP that is basically all about kills and killstreaks.
That said, you're very much right. And as someone who enjoys PvP games (amongst other things) It frustrates me to no end. It's a problem I've been dealing w/ lately in SMITE. In order to play with players who understand the basic game mechanics you have to go pretty high up on the skill-brackets. The vast majority of players just run around with their brains turned off wondering why they're losing, or thinking they are the sh*t when they've done basically nothing of value.
This is a trend in a lot of games I've been seeing. Too many players unwilling to learn basic game mechanics, and instead just want to shut off their brain and autopilot. I understand the appeal, I just wish it would stay out of teambased gameplay. It's annoying when you're fate is shared with others, and part of your team are essentially vegetables.
You're falsely attributing that to "PVP mentality", as if PvE players are action gameplay averse which is... silly.
I know labels are a big thing here, but you seem to be barking up an odd tree with this one.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
you say this but then you stated earlier that competitive raiding(or crafting for that matter when warrented) ) wasn't part of your "PVP mentality....so im alittle confused because basically anything competitive(as in non-coop) would be considered the "PvP" mentality( player against player). PKing is PvP, but all PvP isn't pking bro.
i think whats actually happened is ~2005-2006 mmorpgs hit that critical mass where they went from being a niche experience to a cultural norm...and the people with the co-op mentality got drowned out completely by people with the competitive "PvP" mentality because its instilled in our culture(almost globally) to be competitive in every aspect of our lives(like work, school, sports, wealth, etc).
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also i don't think twitch based combat really has anything to do with pvp/nonpvp mentality.instead it has more to do with the younger generations dwindling attention span and ability to multi task. Another reason i think also comes down to cultural norms ie. action combat being more interesting then rock>scissors>paper>rock traditional trinity....in the same sense as watching professional sports is more interesting then watching professional chess for the bulk of the population.
I'm not really sure what mindset you have to be in to think they were all PVP-focused. PVP is always an afterthought (and that's fitting, since RPG PVP is fundamentally a type of casual PVP which is a lot less popular than skill-centric PVP games.)
If you focus on PVE, even games which have a relatively clear PVP focus (GW2) end up being pretty enjoyable. Perhaps not long-lived, because I never quite figured out what I should care about doing at max level, but a better return on investment than most MMORPGs, for purely PVE purposes.
I guess I don't feel most other MMORPGs have a PVP focus, but maybe that's because they're far beyond my even considering playing them for PVP (whereas at least with GW2 there was a vague sense that maybe some of the non-skill factors were stripped out -- so maybe PVP might've been good.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
pvp isn't to blame for the sad state of the mmo community. in fact, i can point my finger at one specific game that turned things toxic. WoW.
you see, when you go from maybe 500,000 active players in a community ('98-2004) to 10+ million, you are bound to find some real treasures. the population explosion is what has put us where we are, end of thread.
it's the natural evolution of things. find your little scrap of happiness and cling to it, just like everybody else. nothing stays the same forever.
"Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought."
By the same logic you would say a 2D fighting game like supersmash/streetfighter are games for idiots.
The entrance of action MMORPGs should be welcomed, rather than frawned upon. It leads to much more interesting, skill based PvP that can be enjoyable to watch for spectators and have an immense amount of depth. To me, personaly, it's tab targetting that was the system for no-brainers, where all you needed to do is know the rotations and when to use them. With action mmos and the decrease in the number of skills, they have been made much more specific and greatly working to react against other skills. It makes for MUCH more interesting combat with a good learning curve, rather than in tab targetting system, where the main learning curve is 1. learn all the good rotations of you class. 2. Learn all the main skills of other classes to know when to pop a debuff/buff. That's it. In action systems we have MUCH more emphasis on Yomi, mechanics, positioning, fighting styles, tempo. It's stubbornnes and being stuck in the past that stops people from seeing the good in action systems.
Regarding the focus on PvP, I do agree that it has become a little bit too much of a focal point in modern mmos. More resources should be spent in making well working PvE systems that would nicely tie into PvP. I always enjoyed the idea of pvp and pve systems that would not be mutualy exclusive, but, rather, depend on each other. I heavily dislike that pvp gear mostly comes from pvp nowadays, rather than from crafting, which would create a great cooperative system of pvp'ers supplying crafters with specific mats to make them pvp gear etc etc. The 2 systems are too disconnected nowadays. Look at GW2. They literaly made 3 different play modes each having 0 tie with the other, except for character progression.
I'm the hardcore player, the one that rushes lvl cap before you even finish the starting area.
I'll tell you where it has brought us..
Instead of gamer's asking for content and design,the ONLY TWO things i hear talked about over and over,is open world pvp and looting,NOTHING else.You can't get a more shallow design than that but if players are going to hand over their money for sloppy game design,the developers are more than happy to take it.
You would THINK players would be asking for meaningful buildings/structures to pvp with,more realistic movement like climbing,better physics ect ect,nope i just want to pvp and i don't care how crappy the game is,heck i'll stand in the open and just spam my gun until i die,i don't care....btw how much money you want from me,take it all,i am a dumb ass gamer.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Nobody can understand the question because it is nonsense. You have a personal definition of a phrase "PvP mentality" that nobody else uses or understands. What does it mean? Can you explain it? Do you even know?
Aren't you emotionally defending what you want to be true?
What pvp games have there really been in the last 10 years? And that "brought us here"?
Shadowbane, the lineage series, DAoC, though I do believe that's RVR and people don't have to be subject to pvp ...
World of Warcraft (not a pvp game and there are servers that are completely pve)
City of heroes, not a pvp game but has pvp
Guild Wars, small group consensual pvp and a completely separate pve side
um ...
Warhammer, consensual pvp
So I suppose we have
Shadowbane, Lineage series, EVE, Darkfall, Mortal Online for PvP games that are ffa, DAoC for RVR, some faction based pvp games where you can avoid pvp.
And then every other mmo with pvp that isn't in the spotlight.
Now let's look at your post.
A decade where we have seen the PvP mentality demand that tab is dead and that twitch is the future again and again (yeah, looking at you Murphy!).
I've hated Tabing to next combatant in EVERY game I've ever played, pvp or pve. Tabbing doens't add anything to combat it's just a way to pick an opponent.
Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought.
This is a ridiculous statement. Deliberation is part of combat, so is thought. Take some martial arts and experience it instead if just saying things to say them.
Where has that brought us, really?
Are our communities better?
I've been in pve games with some horrible players. I've experienced horrible players on pve servers.
Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier?
Some of the best "social aspects" I've ever had in an mmo were in Lineage 2. People banding together as families (clans) and really working for and with each other.
Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?
Transience in mmo's has nothing to do with pvp, toxicity is for those players who are dominated with personal issues, pvp or pve, and there is no push toward pvp dominated design. There just happen to be less mmo's coming out and only a few in the spotlight that seem to have a pvp focus. Korean games tend to have a lot of pvp, Crowfall is made by the shadowbane guys and they are making the game they want to make which is the way it should be instead of making a game to please everyone except them, Everquest Next is not a pvp game, And what what else is there really?
Where has PvP, PvP, PvP brought us in the end?
It brought us your post but a post that really isn't thought through and is just about your dislike of pvp. Which is more of argument born of emotion.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I think I did understand it.
You feel most gamers these days want MMOs to be Counter-strike, twitchy and no strategy or tact. This isn't true; we want experiences that only player vs player can provide, it does not have to be twitchy or action oriented, only higher stakes. PvE players push for similar combat styles as PvP players.
You think that people are becoming more competitive instead of cooperative and you would be correct. Good luck inhibiting human competition.
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I THINK you are wrong, the only thing we have seen is they can't make CONTENT as fast as the PvE people burn through it. SHALLOW is what I call a game with RAIDS you have to run 1000 TIMES to get the next shiny instead of setting up the world for PLAYERS to make their own CONTENT. Open world PvP and looting provide more content than any PvE game on rails could ever provide. Every game since WoW has shown this, PvE end game is a dead end.
From my perspective, PvP has always been a constant in mmorpg's. Currently the MMO genre is very watered down but if you actually ponder the older MMO's for a bit...
Ultima - PvP
EQ - PvP servers
DAoC - PvP
Asherons Call - PvP Servers
Shadowbane - PvP
Anarchy Online - PvP
WoW - PvP servers (hell faction warfare is in the core theme of the game)
You claim that there is some kind of focus on PvP over the last decade and I would argue that PvP isnt more nor less of a focus than when the genre was created. You also allude to PvP and twitch or action based combat are synonymous. I would argue that PvP and twitch combat should be treated as separate things. Twitch combat is becoming more of a focus simply due to hardware evolution.