The three sides standoff and stare at each other because no one wants to be caught in the middle. Nothing happens.....
It starts out 90v90. One side is more organized and wins the first fight. 1/3 of the losing side immediately ragequits/afks. You never get a good fight again.
I've been playing GW2 WvW for 2.5 years now. I get a good large number fight twice a month if that. The rest of the time its just people running away from each other.
Originally posted by Dren_UtogiI think the real problem is how people are raised from the 90's and up, raised to "win at all costs" instead of enjoying the game.I;m glad as a person I have some values in a valueless world.
It's definitely not a generational thing. Many older gamers played a ton of Street Fighter 2 or earlier games at a competitive level, and Sirlin is a great example (having written an excellent article Playing To Win.) He's actually around my age bracket and we kinda ended up in the same place (game designers who also do a lot of PVP balance work.) Though I got into a serious competitive mindset a little later ('97 with Dark Reign and Starcraft.) We have values, but only the real values. We only obey the actual rules of the game (ie we don't cheat), not the fake rules that bad players invent (ie we're cheap as hell.) For example, a lot of players felt it was cheap to use throws in Street Fighter 2, but I still did it all the time because it was part of the game. Sirlin basically uses the term "scrubs" to describe the players who invent these fake rules and allow them to limit their own play. Essentially what you've done is to call all of us older gamers scrubs. I assure you, not all older gamers are scrubs.
Well I have to agree with you, as long as you aren't breaking the rules, or taking advantage of something others can't equally do the same, then all's fair in PVP and War.If you are playing a PVP game like EVE where losing has some significant consequences, then winning at all cost is definitely the way to play, fairness should never come into consideration and if it does, likely you've done something very wrong.Your example about players creating artificial rules reminds me of my days in WOW, when people would say it was unfair in a duel for a Pally to pop his bubble shield, or for another player to use healing pots to win. Might as well tell a stealther it's unfair if they stealth to start the fight and back stab you.
I think its good when the community makes rules to help even the odds. If the devs don't give a crap enough about the pvp then the players have to. My early years we had a rule that you could only loot 3 items from a corpse. It made the game fair and helped keep the players happy. It wasn't our fault the devs were too stupid to make changes so the pvp would be more balanced and user friendly. Now that massive online has entered the equation it is up to the devs because you wont be able to get players to follow rules like this.
Of course the players won't follow arbitrary rules that aren't part of the game, nor should you expect them to.
Being permanently banned for 'exploits' is also ridiculous.
I am surprised it took this long for someone to mention EVE. I would have thought it would be the first game that came to mind about massive PvP.
Given that millions upon millions of players playing other types of PVP, I would think the piddly 500k (or whatever) playing EVE would more be proof of what the OP is saying than a way to dispute the OP.
Ah, the hate continues to show through, what ever did this game do to you?
It is certainly a niche game that is true, not many people enjoy massive open warfare, most prefer fair and balanced team sports...nothing wrong with that btw, just a different form of PVP.
Oh yes, and of the dozens or so reasons people routinely list about why they don't like EVE, this one actually is a bit further down the list than some of the favorites such as I just can't get into playing as a spaceship.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
...and there's no line of sight checks, collision detection or friendly fire in most MMORPGs.
Right. The lack of friendly fire is an even stronger argument to have less AOE flying around than even PS2's limited options.
I'm not sure the other two are entirely unworkable.
MMORPG line of sight rules seem fairly functional for their style of combat (and more importantly, they're somewhat forgiving because of the vague camera angle where it's much harder to know if your character actually has perfect line of sight to cast on something.)
Player-collision isn't absolutely required for good massive PVP. While it brings some interesting tactics, it can also cause problems (and I feel GW1 was a good example of both, since blocking was an actual tactical possibility, but blocking also caused frequent rubber-banding of my character when I played.) Of course that problem isn't unsolvable and collision is a net-positive overall if done well since it enables a set of interesting tactics and even makes knockback style abilities have more importance than simply being used to gain distance or knock people off cliffs (you'll actually be able to punch a hole in a shield wall of opponents.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Ah, the hate continues to show through, what ever did this game do to you?
It is certainly a niche game that is true, not many people enjoy massive open warfare, most prefer fair and balanced team sports...nothing wrong with that btw, just a different form of PVP.
Oh yes, and of the dozens or so reasons people routinely list about why they don't like EVE, this one actually is a bit further down the list than some of the favorites such as I just can't get into playing as a spaceship.
What?
I basically said "it's a niche game."
You agreed "it's certainly a niche game."
The conversation is about the popularity of massive PVP. We're both saying that EVE isn't an example of popularity.
Why do you perceive that as "hate"? It's simple statement of fact.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Ah, the hate continues to show through, what ever did this game do to you?
It is certainly a niche game that is true, not many people enjoy massive open warfare, most prefer fair and balanced team sports...nothing wrong with that btw, just a different form of PVP.
Oh yes, and of the dozens or so reasons people routinely list about why they don't like EVE, this one actually is a bit further down the list than some of the favorites such as I just can't get into playing as a spaceship.
What?
I basically said "it's a niche game."
You agreed "it's certainly a niche game."
The conversation is about the popularity of massive PVP. We're both saying that EVE isn't an example of popularity.
Why do you perceive that as "hate"? It's simple statement of fact.
Lol. You can pretend to be dumb, but you're choice of words always gives it away. This was however, one of you're lighter moments, but they keep coming like bullets from a spraying Uzi.
"I would think the piddly 500k (or whatever)...." Piddly? Unnecesarily condescending. You can find more of a big boy word to use than that. "Or whatever"? We know what you mean by this; there's 50K people playing and the rest are alts. Suuuure, buddy.
At least own it, man. Enough with the: "what? What'd I do?" act.
Kyleran has a very valid question in his post: "what ever did this game do to you?".
It's just a video game.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Lol. You can pretend to be dumb, but you're choice of words always gives it away. This was however, one of you're lighter moments, but they keep coming like bullets from a spraying Uzi.
"I would think the piddly 500k (or whatever)...." Piddly? Unnecesarily condescending. You can find more of a big boy word to use than that. "Or whatever"? We know what you mean by this; there's 50K people playing and the rest are alts. Suuuure, buddy.
At least own it, man. Enough with the: "what? What'd I do?" act.
Kyleran has a very valid question in his post: "what ever did this game do to you?".
It's just a video game.
Yes, it's just a video game. Facts about it were calmly stated.
I apologize if my calm focus on facts comes as a disappointment. If it's any help, remember that you can perpetually delude yourself into believing I'm an irrational hate-monger, and nobody can stop you from having that belief.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Probably means the Zulu kingdom of south Africa. But he needs to do more reading. They did have some initial success but they lost the war to England around 1870 and were absorbed into the union of south Africa.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I like massive pvp BUT it has to perform well - I don't want an unplayable lag fest when too many characters are on screen, it needs to depend on more than just numbers - if zerging wins everytime then it's just bad design, and, personally, I like to have an objective/s to fight over.
Originally posted by filmoret Personally I love massive pvp but for some reason its a niche thing that doesn't appear to be growing very well. At first glance people usually just scream zergfest then cry and run away and goto a forum and write a post in utter despair. Having played Rift's 180 person fights and actually paying attention to what was happening you could see group organization and tactics. Same thing for GW2 but one can easily get bored of the player stacking that occurs. But for someone to cry about ESO's cyrodiil just boggles my mind altogether. What are people expecting from massive warfare? You get rewards for winning and using strategies and tactics trump a mindless zerg any day. Yet people will continually write articles about how zergy and crappy and pointless it all is.
There are more games then GW2 and TESO that support massive warfare and are enjoyable.
Yesterday I was in a lagfree fight of 300 vs 800. Most enjoyable.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Originally posted by filmoret Personally I love massive pvp but for some reason its a niche thing that doesn't appear to be growing very well. At first glance people usually just scream zergfest then cry and run away and goto a forum and write a post in utter despair. Having played Rift's 180 person fights and actually paying attention to what was happening you could see group organization and tactics. Same thing for GW2 but one can easily get bored of the player stacking that occurs. But for someone to cry about ESO's cyrodiil just boggles my mind altogether. What are people expecting from massive warfare? You get rewards for winning and using strategies and tactics trump a mindless zerg any day. Yet people will continually write articles about how zergy and crappy and pointless it all is.
There are more games then GW2 and TESO that support massive warfare and are enjoyable.
Yesterday I was in a lagfree fight of 300 vs 800. Most enjoyable.
I think you forgot to mention the game. Unless its the only other game where you will see such activity and that is Eve. You know not everyone wants a space ship combat game or a huge fps game. Yes we have 1 of each but that's all and they aren't that popular.
I don't like games with a large variable number of players on each side during a match, or fight, that's why I think only battleground based PvP can really work well. Probably why I pretty much stick to fps games and WoW for PvP even if WoW's PvP isn't balanced, but I haven't found an MMO that is.
I'm pretty sure there is a huge audience for massive PvP games. What I don't see is that audience wanting it in the form of an RPG or any type of game that requires character building and gear gathering from PvE content. I have also yet to see a game offer both PvE and PvP without alienating one or the other due to many obvious reasons.
Speak for yourself, massive scale pvp is about as good as pvp gets and the most fun I've ever had with pvp, what I'm sick of is small scale 6v6 type arena pvp.
To find an intelligent person in a PUG is not that rare, but to find a PUG made up of "all" intelligent people is one of the rarest phenomenons in the known universe.
I like it. Heck, it's the only pvp I really enjoy.
Then again, most of the large scale pvp I experienced were the large clan battles or sieges in Lineage 2.
Are you still playing L2?
I'm not as I've been experiencing a horrendous lag that actually makes the game unplayable. Someone on this forum told me that I should try putting the game on an sold state drive and that makes a huge difference so if that works I will try again.
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Comments
It starts 60v60v60.
The three sides standoff and stare at each other because no one wants to be caught in the middle. Nothing happens.....
It starts out 90v90.
One side is more organized and wins the first fight. 1/3 of the losing side immediately ragequits/afks. You never get a good fight again.
I've been playing GW2 WvW for 2.5 years now. I get a good large number fight twice a month if that. The rest of the time its just people running away from each other.
Of course the players won't follow arbitrary rules that aren't part of the game, nor should you expect them to.
Being permanently banned for 'exploits' is also ridiculous.
Waiting for:
The Repopulation
Albion Online
Indeed many "pvpers" have afraid DIE
Consider GW2 you dont lose anything , and zero real cosequence
And guys play gw2 for PPT damm let me laugh alot / to not say guys hidden behind arrowcart wall
And why i said and keep say
NO AOE CAP its break any zerg very well - super effective
Ah, the hate continues to show through, what ever did this game do to you?
It is certainly a niche game that is true, not many people enjoy massive open warfare, most prefer fair and balanced team sports...nothing wrong with that btw, just a different form of PVP.
Oh yes, and of the dozens or so reasons people routinely list about why they don't like EVE, this one actually is a bit further down the list than some of the favorites such as I just can't get into playing as a spaceship.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Right. The lack of friendly fire is an even stronger argument to have less AOE flying around than even PS2's limited options.
I'm not sure the other two are entirely unworkable.
MMORPG line of sight rules seem fairly functional for their style of combat (and more importantly, they're somewhat forgiving because of the vague camera angle where it's much harder to know if your character actually has perfect line of sight to cast on something.)
Player-collision isn't absolutely required for good massive PVP. While it brings some interesting tactics, it can also cause problems (and I feel GW1 was a good example of both, since blocking was an actual tactical possibility, but blocking also caused frequent rubber-banding of my character when I played.) Of course that problem isn't unsolvable and collision is a net-positive overall if done well since it enables a set of interesting tactics and even makes knockback style abilities have more importance than simply being used to gain distance or knock people off cliffs (you'll actually be able to punch a hole in a shield wall of opponents.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
What?
I basically said "it's a niche game."
You agreed "it's certainly a niche game."
The conversation is about the popularity of massive PVP. We're both saying that EVE isn't an example of popularity.
Why do you perceive that as "hate"? It's simple statement of fact.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Lol. You can pretend to be dumb, but you're choice of words always gives it away. This was however, one of you're lighter moments, but they keep coming like bullets from a spraying Uzi.
"I would think the piddly 500k (or whatever)...." Piddly? Unnecesarily condescending. You can find more of a big boy word to use than that. "Or whatever"? We know what you mean by this; there's 50K people playing and the rest are alts. Suuuure, buddy.
At least own it, man. Enough with the: "what? What'd I do?" act.
Kyleran has a very valid question in his post: "what ever did this game do to you?".
It's just a video game.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I like it. Heck, it's the only pvp I really enjoy.
Then again, most of the large scale pvp I experienced were the large clan battles or sieges in Lineage 2.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Are you still playing L2?
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Yes, it's just a video game. Facts about it were calmly stated.
I apologize if my calm focus on facts comes as a disappointment. If it's any help, remember that you can perpetually delude yourself into believing I'm an irrational hate-monger, and nobody can stop you from having that belief.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I agree we have to deal with those two separately. Different target audiences.
There are more games then GW2 and TESO that support massive warfare and are enjoyable.
Yesterday I was in a lagfree fight of 300 vs 800. Most enjoyable.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
I think you forgot to mention the game. Unless its the only other game where you will see such activity and that is Eve. You know not everyone wants a space ship combat game or a huge fps game. Yes we have 1 of each but that's all and they aren't that popular.
He is talking about the specific form of pvp called RvR. On rvr there is no ganking.
To find an intelligent person in a PUG is not that rare, but to find a PUG made up of "all" intelligent people is one of the rarest phenomenons in the known universe.
I'm not as I've been experiencing a horrendous lag that actually makes the game unplayable. Someone on this forum told me that I should try putting the game on an sold state drive and that makes a huge difference so if that works I will try again.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo