In-game economy

Unknown · February 2006

How do you guys plan to cut down on Inflation?

What type of money sinks do you guys plan to implement? Or are you taking a whole different approach to the economy? I read that there would be equipment upkeep costs. Anything else you could tell us? I have a few Ideas....

How about a monthly membership guild fee?

Or adding lockpicks to the game for Rogue's, If they broke then cost for repairs.

Or some kind of bank taxation, Just something more that would help take out somewhere close to the coinage that makes it's way into the game.

xDivianaDRx · February 2006

I think a large portion of balancing the economy will be with special merchants and festivals and such (like DR and GS have)

I'm hoping they will offer a lot of unique items, and I know a lot of people will get upset about that, but the thing is it allows more economic balance. If player A managed to visit super awesome festival, but player B didn't, and player A bought two of super cool item, then player B could buy that item from player A, maybe at a higher cost, but they still spent money on items, and there was no real monetary gain.. Unless they keep the item for about 5 years and sell it for 60x what they paid. (something like shadowsilk cloaks, I hear they were originally 25 plat and now I know they go anywhere from 300-500 plat.. and for those of you who don't know DR money, it goes something like, copper, bronze, silver, gold, platinum, so 10 copper = 1 bronze, and 10 bronze = 1 silver, and so on, until 1 plat = 10,000 coppers.. so you can see why 500 platinum is a lot)

Anyway enough rambling about that.

I like unique items because it gives more uniquity (I don't think that's a word, but IT SHOULD BE) to each player. Diviana would not be Diviana without her shadowsilk cloak.. She'd just be some weird sock lady then. (although I really did get rid of all those socks, she had about 30 on at one point)

Unknown · February 2006

I agree completely with having GM run merchants, A very cool and unique feature Within most of their existing games. And I'm sure they will be doing the same with HJ, hopefully. Anyone else have any suggestions for a really good money sink, That players wouldn't mind all that much? Please throw em out there. These guys do listen to suggestions....

Alberist (GS-IV)

HJ-Stencil · February 2006

Man I luv the way you gamers think. One of my biggest areas of research is game economics. I hate it when economies get out of balance. Almost every game I have ever played the economy goes out of whack big time.

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Here is a short list of economy imbalances that I have encountered.

Everyone has tons of $$
Everyone has tons of uber items
Everyone has no $$
Everyone has no uber items

The problem with games economically is they print money. Unlike RL we dont go to work and earn some one elses money. Instead we go adventuring (cough some of those $$ farming adventures are pretty lame ok most of them are). This money comes from thin air and then gets added to the economy. If players buy and sell and do business only with them selves the money never goes back to the void. It just circulates and compounds, because people continue to Adventure, and buy mostly from other players. This by itself is inflating money (and who said money doesnt grow on trees). The problem continues to compound if items that people pay for ALSO come from the void. Then we have void paying for void that does NOT go back to the void exponential compounding inflation. This exponential inflation continues as each Thing comes from our friend the void. So lets say the materials for the player crafted items also come from the void we have void materials making void items or enhancing them, and being sold for void money.

We as game designers have a couple of obvious answers to this escalating dilemma.

We only put so much stuff in the game and dont print any more i.e. limited resources. Like real life (NOT a good idea from my experiences, and NOT VERY FUN)
We provide you with fun, and interesting ways to put it back into the void.

So without revealing our secrets J I leave you with those ideas

What I would ask you guys to come up with IS more fun and interesting ways to put your money back into Bank Void for later withdrawals.

Arremus · February 2006

Originally posted by HJ-Stencil
What I would ask you guys to come up with IS more fun and interesting ways to put your money back into Bank Void for later withdrawals.

I had a bit of a think and wrote some things down. None of them are overly unique, and most are open to a lot of debate, but thought I'd try at least get the ball rolling.

Wrapping paper and attached cards.
The ability to wrap an item in paper and send it to another person.
This is nothing new, but what I thought might be a nice addition is the ability to write a card, and depending on the type of greeting you choose (love, friendship, thankyou etc), the card grants the recipient a 1 hour buff or such. A message of love gives +10 Fortitude, friendship a +10 Spirit buff etc.
And the ability to send wrapped presents, with buff cards, anonymously, thus adding to roleplay ability. Roleplay through being able to send presents, and also the warm and fuzzy feeling you get from receiving it (the buff).
The paper and card could have separate costs, and even if small, the buffs could prompt people to send these a lot, thus removing a good amount of coin.

The more you farm, the more you lose out.
This one will of course be met with a lot of debate, but I was considering the effects of farming. Im not sure the kind of loot you have dropping from mobs, but if they drop random vendor loot (sell-for-vendor-cash-only drops) is it at all viable to have that same type of loot gradually get you less coin the more you sell it in the same town? Meaning, I farm Gooblesnacks for a day, I sell 100 Gooblesnack claws to the vendor in TownA. The next day I do the same, and the vendor is so stocked up with my claws that he doesnt really need anymore, but will buy them at a cheaper price.
This could help to cut down on farming for cash techniques, while also getting people to think beyond the typical WoW-style farming a certain mob for 5 days for cash.
Of course, there would have to be thought put into the timeframe of how long he gives you less for the goods etc.

Heros Journey LOTTO Syndicate.
Well how about a weekly lotto draw?
Costs $1 a ticket, 15c of which is buying fee. So that when all the totals are added up, 15% is actually a fee. Therefore, when the prize winning numbers are drawn, only 85% of the money actually goes back into the community.
Its a good way to get a decent amount of $$$ out of the economy while also supplying players with the chance of a VERY nice windfall.
Maybe divide the prize poll over 10 winners of varying amounts or such, so one person doesnt win 1000plat.

Dueling Arenas for CASH!
Have a duelling circle, where people can sit and watch and cheer etc, where we can duel, three on three, 1 vs 1 vs 1 etc, with us betting our own money as well as spectators able to bet each other or the bank.
Could be a fun way to test out our skills, with a purpose, beyond Hey, want to duel? Yeah, sure etc thats standard in MMOs these days.
We could set up tournaments etc ourselves too even.
I usually dont duel in MMOs cos its just boring after youve done it twice. Something more like this, as Im sure it would be in this sort of setting, would be a lot of fun.

Make death hurt
When you die, you pay a fair chunk of cash to repair your goods, if a team mate cant do it for you.
Keep the cost low at lower levels, but jack it up as you advance in the game. Make it another reason to really avoid death (a concept which is very non-MMOesque these days).
Of course, itd have to not be too easy to die in game; or moreso, too hard to stay alive.

Unknown · February 2006

Have a few ideas for ya Stencil,

Unidentified Items - This would be a fun way for someone to spend a few silver each time they find a decent magical item, To have it identified in town by NPC, Or another player. Everyone loves loot and wouldn't mind paying to have it Identified.

Barbershop Feature - Not sure if this if already implemented or not, Just a simple way to change your hairstyle if the need be, often times in some of these games I feel the need for a change to the look of my character, this would work out real good for those situations....

The Elanthian Journal Of Hero's - An fun and interesting way to spend a few silver, would be to have a weekly newspaper sent to everyone's house or mailbox. Now the thing about the newspaper is it would be a player ranking system, ranking all players who subscribe to it in many different categories, Sorta like players.com for Eq2, Just much more detailed and realistic. Ranking players in server-wide and world-wide and also Individual stats, By things like quests completed, Toughest lock picked, least amount of deaths and so on...I think many people like to see where they stand, So many would be interested in Subscribing to it each week. If you didn't subscribe, you could still pay to view it at a inn on a bulletin board or something.

Alberist (GS-IV)

Pham_Trinli · February 2006

From stencil's post this is what I gather is going to be done in HJ:

There will not be a set amount of resources/money in game.

There will be sink-holes

The problem is making these sink-holes fun and enjoyable enough to make players want to do it enough

Another problem is balancing the amount of resources players spend in sink-holes to that which is not lost (i.e. traded to other players, saved, etc.) so that the overall amount of resources in the world continually stays at approximately the same level (at least to the point where there isn't much inflation).

I think we could come up with some sort of algorithm which counts the total amount of stored money/resources in the world (pre-cached at regular intervals in some variable) and then uses that as some type of multiplier to affect the range of loot that a monster drops.

ex.: Monster A has base loot range "randxtoy" = 100 to 200 $$ that it will drop when killed. Economy_var was last cached at = 2,000,000 $$ (for the whole world). Economy_mult = ((2000000)(.000001)) = 2

Now, Player B kills Monster A. Let's say randxtoy is randomly generated at 120 $$. Monster A's amount of $$ dropped is now calculated at: ((120)(2)) = 240 $$ is dropped.

Now, since this is double what it would drop at its base amount, you could say your target economy amount you want to keep relatively constant in the world is 1,000,000 (since this amount would yield the base amount of $$ dropped by the monster. In this way, this multiplier would help regulate the total amount of $$ in the world economy while still not really cheating the player out of anything.

Note: This process could even be applied to loot values to help determine what kind of loot will drop at any given time (within a certain range) from any given monster.

xDivianaDRx · February 2006

Making it fun isn't really an issue, all they have to do is make a semi-unique item, make a bunch (50+? to a max depending on size of server maybe..) sell them at decent prices, and repeat every so often with different items. That way everyone gets cool different items, the money isn't being put back out, and everyone is happy.

But besides that I'm sure there will be plenty of fun things to spend money on (festivals, games, not-so-unique items are some possibilities..). Items are just one way that I'm sure they'll do it. I mean, they do it in DR and GS why not HJ? Because it's a graphical mmo? Pshh, who cares. I know some crabby babies will get upset because there are items they can't just get their hands on by killing something over and over again, but you know what? It's a lot more fun this way because everybody is more unique, and if they really wanted it, they'd save up enough money to make a good enough offer to buy it from someone. Or be their lackey. Or sell their soul.

Pham_Trinli · February 2006

Originally posted by Arremus
Originally posted by HJ-Stencil
What I would ask you guys to come up with IS more fun and interesting ways to put your money back into Bank Void for later withdrawals.

I had a bit of a think and wrote some things down. None of them are overly unique, and most are open to a lot of debate, but thought I'd try at least get the ball rolling.

Wrapping paper and attached cards.
The ability to wrap an item in paper and send it to another person.
This is nothing new, but what I thought might be a nice addition is the ability to write a card, and depending on the type of greeting you choose (love, friendship, thankyou etc), the card grants the recipient a 1 hour buff or such. A message of love gives +10 Fortitude, friendship a +10 Spirit buff etc.
And the ability to send wrapped presents, with buff cards, anonymously, thus adding to roleplay ability. Roleplay through being able to send presents, and also the warm and fuzzy feeling you get from receiving it (the buff).
The paper and card could have separate costs, and even if small, the buffs could prompt people to send these a lot, thus removing a good amount of coin.

The more you farm, the more you lose out.
This one will of course be met with a lot of debate, but I was considering the effects of farming. Im not sure the kind of loot you have dropping from mobs, but if they drop random vendor loot (sell-for-vendor-cash-only drops) is it at all viable to have that same type of loot gradually get you less coin the more you sell it in the same town? Meaning, I farm Gooblesnacks for a day, I sell 100 Gooblesnack claws to the vendor in TownA. The next day I do the same, and the vendor is so stocked up with my claws that he doesnt really need anymore, but will buy them at a cheaper price.
This could help to cut down on farming for cash techniques, while also getting people to think beyond the typical WoW-style farming a certain mob for 5 days for cash.
Of course, there would have to be thought put into the timeframe of how long he gives you less for the goods etc.

Heros Journey LOTTO Syndicate.
Well how about a weekly lotto draw?
Costs $1 a ticket, 15c of which is buying fee. So that when all the totals are added up, 15% is actually a fee. Therefore, when the prize winning numbers are drawn, only 85% of the money actually goes back into the community.
Its a good way to get a decent amount of $$$ out of the economy while also supplying players with the chance of a VERY nice windfall.
Maybe divide the prize poll over 10 winners of varying amounts or such, so one person doesnt win 1000plat.

Dueling Arenas for CASH!
Have a duelling circle, where people can sit and watch and cheer etc, where we can duel, three on three, 1 vs 1 vs 1 etc, with us betting our own money as well as spectators able to bet each other or the bank.
Could be a fun way to test out our skills, with a purpose, beyond Hey, want to duel? Yeah, sure etc thats standard in MMOs these days.
We could set up tournaments etc ourselves too even.
I usually dont duel in MMOs cos its just boring after youve done it twice. Something more like this, as Im sure it would be in this sort of setting, would be a lot of fun.

------>>Make death hurt
When you die, you pay a fair chunk of cash to repair your goods, if a team mate cant do it for you.
Keep the cost low at lower levels, but jack it up as you advance in the game. Make it another reason to really avoid death (a concept which is very non-MMOesque these days).
Of course, itd have to not be too easy to die in game; or moreso, too hard to stay alive.

I think Arremus has a good idea there with the repair costs. I think another way to do this would be to make repair skill very hard to level up (if there is a repair skill for players) and make repair NPC's in the world very few and far between. That way, if a player is really in a bad way (all their armor is broken or severely damaged) they can still go to a far off land/city and have it repaired (It just makes it a huge inconvenience) but the option to repair is still there so they aren't just stuck and have to buy a whole new set of armor (or maybe they do depending on how badly they were mangled )

This would also place some good emphasis on the crafting part of the game (where players with repair skill would be a valued commodity in groups and what-not).

Shroom_Mage · February 2006

Wrapping paper and attached cards.

This idea isn't too bad, but I think people would end up sending each other cards just for the buffs. "Okay, are we ready for this quest? Has everyone exchanged greeting cards? Good, let's go." That might end up being a little weird. However, charging postage for mail (like in WoW) isn't a bad idea, as people send mail all the time.

The more you farm, the more you lose out.

I've seen this done before, but I like the way you describe it better. In Guild Wars, the value of crafting items (for Trade Merchants) would decrease as more were sold to them. Since these items were continuously brought in from the void, the prices of all of the decreased sharply, which means more farming is required to make a buck, but you can buy more for that buck once you get it. I like the idea of just making "garbage" items sell for less for just that person rather than everyone.

Heros Journey LOTTO Syndicate.

This is probably a great idea. Fifteen percent of all the money goes into the void, and the rest just stays in circulation. Plus, I'm sure a lot of people would do it.

Dueling Arenas for CASH!

While a simple one-on-one duel shouldn't cost anything, fighting in an Arena could. Now... this is where it gets tricky. In most games, battle arenas are virtually dead. People rarely participate in them, and if they had to pay a dime, no one would at all. However, putting an entry fee for team tournaments with prizes is a great idea. It could work just like the Lotto, except that the reward goes to those who win the tourney, rather than just random people.

Make death hurt

World of Warcraft had gear repair costs when you died, and this probably is a good way of taking some money out of the system.

Unidentified Items

I really like the idea of unidentified items, but if it's going to be used as a money sink then either players won't be able to do it, or they'll require some sort of spell component to do so.

Barbershop Feature

I really like this one! There are very few games that let you change your hairstyle (and color!), and obviously you'd need an NPC to do something like that. And even more obvious is that they'd charge a fee, so this one seems to be a must.

The Elanthian Journal Of Hero's

While being able to subscribe to a newspaper of sorts is something I like, I don't think using it for rankings is a good idea at all. Listing rankings anywhere (especially in a place like this) usually creates a competative environment, and I think HJ is aimed to be more of a social game than a competative one. Including players in them (like naming players who were very active in GM events!) would be nice for a newspaper.

Decreasing loot over time.

Creating a formula to decrease the amount of loot based on the amount of money in circulation would probably help solve the problem, but unfortunately, it would mean that earlier players will always have more money than newcomers.

GM Event Items

That's a really good one. I know people are always willing to spend some money on things just because it's rare or it looks cool. The only way this would go wrong is if the GM items were uber.

HJ-Stencil · February 2006

Hey Guys good posts Nah GREAT posting!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I am going to add a few more snippets for thought. None of my posts ever encompass every aspect of what we have to decide when designing anything in a game. There are so many hidden factors that apply to designing it. Here are a few more that come to mind right away that you all might like to think on.

1. Most sinkholes must be optional like a luxury buy. This is because if we do to many non-optional sinkholes then everyone has to participate, even IF they DONT have the Cash to pay for it. A heroic adventure most likely wont feel epic in proportion if you can hardly cover your adventuring costs, and never increase the net worth of your character. (Optional game activities are influenced by Von Neumanns Law of Game Theorysee below in the subject of Wrapping paper and Attached Cards this can change them into a must participate, because it effects a persons Primary Grind Goals.)

2. We have to be careful not to set the sinks to high, because each player has a different rate at which they can gain income. This rate changes according to their knowledge, but most players are never on the same level of understanding of the game. So if we set the sinks to high those just beginning will be wondering if they can even cover their debts while others are raking in the loot.

3. Balance, balance, balance We constantly have to balance things. A new patch can offset something. The gamers may discover a newfound source of income, even though its always been there. Some one will always find an exploit to well exploit. We may have set the loot drops on some quest to high. The list is insane needless to say even the smallest change can upset our fragile economy.

4. Is it fun? actually is a VERY difficult part to making sinkholes. Some sinkholes we can make are not very fun or even negative fun, because that can be part of the challenge of playing the game. We however dont want to make it to challenging where no one has all to much fun. Also if we dont put much thought into said sinkholes then their fun wont be very high. A lot of what you all have listed has/is already done in other Simutronics Games, but just because we have done it in the past doesnt mean it will be done in this game, nor done in the same fashion.

5. Lastly we have to provide some amount of challenge. Some challenge is fun, and increases the appeal of the over all game design. How much challenge again goes back to BALANCE.

Wrapping paper and attached cards.

Ok here is an interesting proposal, but it also actually goes outside the area of just economy. It goes into the area of game QC/Balance (Quality Control). Hmmm where to start? The father of game theory (Jon Von Neumann) has come up with some general guidelines in game theory. A big one is that the gamer will always choose the most logical solution to his dilemma.

The goal of any MMORPG is its Primary grind. What this ends up being depends on the company, and depends on the gamer (plus a few more that I dont have time to talk about). We are not going to get into this at this time as this topic has way too much to talk about. The point is that the primary grind is a kind of dilemma. The gamer will try to choose the most logical solution to that dilemma.

So example time: Lets say that the for gamer A his primary grind is to be top dog as in how powerful his character is in relation to other gamers. This means that his must have solution always includes using buffs from cards 24/7, because its a logical solution to his game dilemma. The problem is for almost 99% of all gamers they all want to be Valid in power level in relation to other gamers. So if they all see this as being the most logical solution to their dilemma then you have just made a core game requirement (hence its not longer optional).

If we did this WE MAY have just designed a system that every group and every guild requires. Do you have BOT accounts just to mail yourself buffs? Are you fully buffed at all times? If you arent buffed you are now an underdog.

Now my example is extreme to say the least. There are ways to balance all of this. I just wanted to show you a little bit about how expansive your proposal is. I really like the idea of a card/mail system, and I appreciate your input. I think this is a good time to say IF I appear to be shooting you down dont worry one nano second about it. For one I am not the end all game designer, I am only in charge of a few small things so I simply relay your ideas to the appropriate person/persons. I also have much to learn myself, I could be very wrong. Plus I could be stating what doesnt work about your suggestion, but the idea may still be a great one non-the less. Lastly my post can be taken the wrong way J so keep on doing what your doing. The best solutions dont come about by NOT questioning the Way its Always Been Done. Not to mention I am always in a rush when I right these things so I make plenty of grammatical and spelling errors, which add to peoples confusion level.

The more you farm, the more you lose out.

This has already been utilized by Simu with other games they have. One example is with Dragon Realms. The merchant system is smart enough to lower its prices according to how rare an item is. So lets say after a horde of goblins in DR invades a city, if your city survives then the horde of monsters drop their inventory when they die. This means Scimitars are every where so if the gamers start to vendor these scimitars then the price drops drastically as more are sold. Eventually the shopkeeper will say I have no use for any more of those, and wont even buy them any more.

Heros Journey LOTTO Syndicate.

This could be a great idea, but I for one dont like gambling. It promotes some very poor assumptions when you participate in things like this. I know we can put in some moderation tools to help keep this from being an addiction, but we may have to be very careful. I dont know about Internet laws and gambling (even if you are gambling for fake money). Also I dont know how much gambling will be accepting when we dont have an age limit on who plays our game. How will the game appear to parents where we have gambling for all ages including your 12 year old? Lets get them addicted to gambling before they hit the real age to do it for real money. Now again I say this could be a great idea, just has a lot of things that could cause big trouble.

Dueling Arenas for CASH!

This is a match of skill rather than mostly chance, so I am all for this kind of challenge. It doesnt REQUIRE any one to participate, and all parties should know their own skill before laying down collateral as support for their skill claims. This might be considered gambling, but if you truly know your stuff it can more closely be compared to retail IRL. The buyer buys things that he knows he can resell later on. In some extremely rare cases he is stuck with his produce, which he cant sell. Hence nothing in life is truly a 100% win situation, but a Duelist if he truly knows his trade can be a very high percentage of coming out on top.

Make death hurt

This is a tough balance, because death is a good way to make the challenge of the game feel more real to the person, but it can also be to steep and cause people to quite because of the frustration. So its a necessary evil, but balance is a issue here.

Barbershop Feature

Great idea again, again Simu has utilized this in the past with great response.

The Elanthian Journal Of Hero's

Also utilized in the past, not sure on the response from gamers about this though. And they didnt use it as ranking system, just news as to what is going on in the world.

GM Event Items

This is a huge staple for Simu in its past games. This is because of the army of GMs they utilize. How better to maximize your GM resource then to have them run events?

Again Just because I said its already been done doesnt mean I didnt like your ideas. Nor does it mean we will implement it in HJ. Keep up the great work I like to see you guys thinking about these subjects J

Your FAN Stencil: I hope you guys like me putting in some game theory here and there so as to help you guys understand a little more of what we have to consider while designing any game mechanics.

Unknown · February 2006

A couple more Ideas I thought of....

Contests of skill - Kinda in line with the dueling arena idea, However I'm thinking more skill based. Make different contests for each class to participate in, For rogues lockpicking, rangers archery contests so on and so forth. And maybe a general contest could be a race of some kind. This doesn't have to be a GM event, Just maybe a weekly thing controlled by npcs. Of course there would be a fee to sign up, but make the reward non-monetary, cuz we are after all trying to rid the world of some of the overflow. Make the reward something No-trade, maybe even a hero point for first place! Of course you'd have to balance it so that you couldn't win to many in a row..Say limit a Hero to 3 in a row, Then they would need to step down for a week or more.

Sharpening and Polishing armor. - Just a way to give you that extra edge going into battle, A timed minor enhancement to your weapons and armor. Not necessary, but useful. I guess either npcs could grant this or a player. Just an addition to dmg and AC. You would probably need to make this a timed deal also, To stop people from exploiting it.

Alberist (GSIV)

Oingo · February 2006

I feel the more you allow a character to customize their appearance the more in game money they have to pay. It's a money sink and it allows the user to express their avatar in the game world. More costume and design options are available at a lower level but a cost to change the color or to alter the costume in some ways.

icecross · February 2006

I certainly hope it don't come to expensive durability repairs. It would make us dependant on a certain vendored loot value from each mob or enemy to keep the balance.

Maybe thieves could have some kind of bribe option if they got caught stealing? That would even add a new "job" - thief catcher. Will you let the other player go for a small bribe or turn him in for a reward (and maybe some reputation bonus of some kind)?

HJ-Sisca · February 2006

Originally posted by krazp
A couple more Ideas I thought of....
Contests of skill - Kinda in line with the dueling arena idea, However I'm thinking more skill based. Make different contests for each class to participate in, For rogues lockpicking, rangers archery contests so on and so forth. And maybe a general contest could be a race of some kind. This doesn't have to be a GM event, Just maybe a weekly thing controlled by npcs. Of course there would be a fee to sign up, but make the reward non-monetary, cuz we are after all trying to rid the world of some of the overflow. Make the reward something No-trade, maybe even a hero point for first place! Of course you'd have to balance it so that you couldn't win to many in a row..Say limit a Hero to 3 in a row, Then they would need to step down for a week or more.
...
Alberist (GSIV)

I really like this idea. One the first things I thought of when I read it was the Contest of Champions stuff that you find in Dungeon magazine.

You basically build up a fair type atmosphere thats centered around a contest of skills. Groups of adventurers can pay a fee to enter the contest, there's even an option for placing side bets. The contest isn't just a single event and isn't always about who's the best fighter but about over coming challenges. Some of those may require you to fight but almost all of them can be overcome strictly by thinking your way out. In some of the versions I've seen they even limit what gear and spells can be used in the challenge arena to make sure that even a low level team can have a chance against a higher level team.

At the same time there was this big team based contest going on you could also run smaller class based contests and even have 1 on 1 or team vs. team arena style combat. Maybe even larger guild vs guild extravaganzas.

All for some trophy or reward that is more about bragging rights than some uber weapon or armor.

DA2019 · March 2006

Originally posted by krazp

Have a few ideas for ya Stencil,
Unidentified Items - This would be a fun way for someone to spend a few silver each time they find a decent magical item, To have it identified in town by NPC, Or another player. Everyone loves loot and wouldn't mind paying to have it Identified.

This sounds like an excellent idea. It reminded me the old Dragonlance series games (remember SSI?). When you get a dropped item, you can't tell whether it's a magical item or not, unless you cast a "Detect Magic" spell on it. Then you can have it identified by an NPC to learn the true powers of it.

xDivianaDRx · March 2006

The first Exile game was something like that.

(Exile:Escape from the Pit ...I think..)

When you won a fight and got the items, a lot of the time you had to get them identified by a npc.

I still wish I had gotten it registered, so I could have finished it.. I'm too lazy to do all of that now. And too spoiled. Those graphics are horrible.

Shroom_Mage · March 2006

Originally posted by HJ-Sisca
I really like this idea. One the first things I thought of when I read it was the Contest of Champions stuff that you find in Dungeon magazine. You basically build up a fair type atmosphere thats centered around a contest of skills. Groups of adventurers can pay a fee to enter the contest, there's even an option for placing side bets. The contest isn't just a single event and isn't always about who's the best fighter but about over coming challenges. Some of those may require you to fight but almost all of them can be overcome strictly by thinking your way out. In some of the versions I've seen they even limit what gear and spells can be used in the challenge arena to make sure that even a low level team can have a chance against a higher level team.At the same time there was this big team based contest going on you could also run smaller class based contests and even have 1 on 1 or team vs. team arena style combat. Maybe even larger guild vs guild extravaganzas. All for some trophy or reward that is more about bragging rights than some uber weapon or armor.

Ooh, and then occasionally put a special GM Event spin on it. Like, a GM could set up a gauntlet for teams to run. It could have puzzles and monsters and all that cool stuff, and the best part would be that neither team would have ever played the dungeon before. First team to the end gets to keep the treasures within.

HJ-Stencil · March 2006

A contest of skill sounds like a lot of fun lets hope something happens.

I also like those old games where you can bet on monsters who fight eachother that was a bunch of fun! hehe, but I think I said something like I dont like gambling.... I guess I lied I like gambling when it comes to whacky monsters whacken the crap out of eachother

Morneblade · May 2006

In-game economy discussions tend to make me cry. I've seen so many bad economies over the years I'd almost wish there wasn't a "in-game economy", kinda like CoH. I have hope for HJ, since it's not a pure "lewt" game though.

Traxbro · June 2006

Well the only good way to rid the economy of an excess of PHAT LOOTZ that I have ever seen work is simply what wow did. Soulbinding the item so that once you use the item it's only valuable to you and cannot ever be used by another player. However maybe you can do it in a slightly more RP related way and simple look at it as fitting your armor or balancing your weapon for that player (this will increase the gains of the armor or weapon to 100% of what it says rather than 60 or 70%) and then it cannot be undone. That solves the item problems but as far as currency goes i don't believe logicly there is a possible way to rid the world of that problem. As long as monsters and vendors are printing money like you said it's just not possible. The only way to combat this problem is to figure out a way to feed the monsters/vendors money from the economy somehow creating and economic circle. Even if you took money away from the mobs entirely and they just drop furs and whatnot, where does the vendor get the money to buy it from the player... from the "void" ofcourse. The only way I can think of is that vendors give quests to players to retrieve resources in exchange for experience or perhapse a weapon or item made with the resources they just retrieved. The vendor then has a dynamic inventory like any player that it functions on ...to make the weapons they sell... to make money to buy items from players.. Then this system will be self sustaining in a loop that was began by the players giving the resources to the vendors in exchange for XP instead of money. Also, beasts should drop no money... trolls and humanoid creatures can drop money but some way needs to be developed to put the money on them in the first place. Maybe when a player is defeated in combat the money they didn't have banked is taken and devided among the faction of mobs that defeated them. And to top it all off.... avoid a long grinding leveling process in which 10's of thousands of mobs are slain. As far as not having too many money sinks... make upkeep very low on low levels and high on higher levels (that much is obvious). Leave the gameplay simple and easy to achieve goals to begin with, but then the learning curve needs to start to be forced at a certain point. Give the player a good chunk of time to learn and develope and then force them to learn to play at higher levels. It's fantasy not communism... the exceptional people will rise to greatness and the casual players will be as great as they can be. I understand the desire simu has to make the perfect world where everyone can be great.... but the perfect world isn't possible, that's why it doesn't exsist in a game yet. Basicly, you shouldn't deploy game mechanics in an effort to make the game balanced for the weak gamer... Focus on the majority. (which are people that CAN infact adapt to a bit of a harsh envoirnment) Mindless gaming/farming/grinding... is not fun gaming.. Yes I know the IQ needed to play the average mmo lately has been falling rapidly, but i don't believe simu should continue the trend. I do however see the need to make the game run for the masses but have to also remember that the masses aren't stupid, They adjust to their own lives (as is proven with the fact that they can afford to pay for the game) and they can adapt to what few problems a game will present them. I really wish i was smart enough to solve this age old problem but I do beleive that is a nice start.

Morneblade · June 2006

Originally posted by Traxbro
Well the only good way to rid the economy of an excess of PHAT LOOTZ that I have ever seen work is simply what wow did. Soulbinding the item so that once you use the item it's only valuable to you and cannot ever be used by another player.

This actually causes as many problems as it helps. It's not a good system really. Ninja looting becomes much worse with this, and it really doesnt adrdess most of the problems. A better way would just to eliminate "ph4t l3wt".

However maybe you can do it in a slightly more RP related way and simple look at it as fitting your armor or balancing your weapon for that player (this will increase the gains of the armor or weapon to 100% of what it says rather than 60 or 70%) and then it cannot be undone. That solves the item problems but as far as currency goes i don't believe logicly there is a possible way to rid the world of that problem. As long as monsters and vendors are printing money like you said it's just not possible. The only way to combat this problem is to figure out a way to feed the monsters/vendors money from the economy somehow creating and economic circle. Even if you took money away from the mobs entirely and they just drop furs and whatnot, where does the vendor get the money to buy it from the player... from the "void" ofcourse. The only way I can think of is that vendors give quests to players to retrieve resources in exchange for experience or perhapse a weapon or item made with the resources they just retrieved. The vendor then has a dynamic inventory like any player that it functions on ...to make the weapons they sell... to make money to buy items from players.. Then this system will be self sustaining in a loop that was began by the players giving the resources to the vendors in exchange for XP instead of money. Also, beasts should drop no money... trolls and humanoid creatures can drop money but some way needs to be developed to put the money on them in the first place. Maybe when a player is defeated in combat the money they didn't have banked is taken and devided among the faction of mobs that defeated them. And to top it all off.... avoid a long grinding leveling process in which 10's of thousands of mobs are slain. As far as not having too many money sinks... make upkeep very low on low levels and high on higher levels (that much is obvious). Leave the gameplay simple and easy to achieve goals to begin with, but then the learning curve needs to start to be forced at a certain point. Give the player a good chunk of time to learn and develope and then force them to learn to play at higher levels. It's fantasy not communism... the exceptional people will rise to greatness and the casual players will be as great as they can be.

Sorry, this is a really idiotic statement. Playing a game 15+ hours a day does not make you exceptional. Most of your supposedly "exceptional" players couldn't carry alot of "casual" players jockstraps. I see alot of moronic corrilation between the 2, and it is in no way true. I dont have tons of gaming time anymore, but can play circles around the vast majority of the 1337 pissants out there, most of whom can't play a lick, but bungle their way through on /timeplayed alone. Having no life and being a loser I don't think should be autoatically rewarded, or seen as "exceptional".

I understand the desire simu has to make the perfect world where everyone can be great.... but the perfect world isn't possible, that's why it doesn't exsist in a game yet. Basicly, you shouldn't deploy game mechanics in an effort to make the game balanced for the weak gamer... Focus on the majority.

Once again, If I only play 20 hours a week, that doesnt make me a weak gamer. And you playing 70+ a week doesnt make you a strong gamer. It just means you play more. And the majority dont play 70+ hours a week anyway, so by your statement "exceptional" (ha) players shouldnt be catered to anyway. And it's not like we dont have games that cater to people that have no life. Let's also not make every MMO out there a EQ clone (which is what WoW is, but on training wheels).

(which are people that CAN infact adapt to a bit of a harsh envoirnment) Mindless gaming/farming/grinding... is not fun gaming..

But your "exceptional" gamer relies on this to get ahead, it's the only realy advantage they have over someone that goes to work and has a life and family.

Yes I know the IQ needed to play the average mmo lately has been falling rapidly, but i don't believe simu should continue the trend. I do however see the need to make the game run for the masses but have to also remember that the masses aren't stupid,

Actually the masses can be very stupid.

They adjust to their own lives (as is proven with the fact that they can afford to pay for the game) and they can adapt to what few problems a game will present them. I really wish i was smart enough to solve this age old problem but I do beleive that is a nice start.

Traxbro · June 2006

Nice job Trolling... I never said anything about time. The Gm's were talking about not making the game too difficult. And by exceptional i meant playing skill. You were the one that introduced time into what was said not me. So everytime you meantioned time being any kind of a factor you were totally and completely wrong. If anything I advocated a quicker leveling process so everyone could be on equal terms doing end game content faster. So i don't know where you pulled any of your ideas from. All you just did was quote me, and then say something that had almost nothing to do with anything i just said. And as far as you calling the masses stupid... you're obviously one of those people that believes themselves to be a 133t gamer who's better than the average person... which makes you not worth comment.

Morneblade · June 2006

Originally posted by Traxbro

Nice job Trolling... I never said anything about time.

True, but it was implied though when you compared exceptional gamers to casual gamers. Since "casual gamer" is usually defining someone that plays a certain amount per week. Not skill level. If I was incorrect about that I apologize. The fact that I see many people equate time played to skill all the time was what I based my assumption on.
The Gm's were talking about not making the game too difficult. And by exceptional i meant playing skill. You were the one that introduced time into what was said not me. So everytime you meantioned time being any kind of a factor you were totally and completely wrong.
I stand corrected. I made a assumption based on my past experience with people on this subject. One that was in this case quite wrong.
If anything I advocated a quicker leveling process so everyone could be on equal terms doing end game content faster.
That you did, and at the time with my previous assumption I saw this as being hypocritical. Again I stand corrected.
So i don't know where you pulled any of your ideas from. All you just did was quote me, and then say something that had almost nothing to do with anything i just said. And as far as you calling the masses stupid... you're obviously one of those people that believes themselves to be a 133t gamer who's better than the average person... which makes you not worth comment.
Well, you are correct on some of that. I do consider myself a good player, but very much anti-1337. I read some of your comments and interperted them and saw another person trying to advocate /timeplayed being the sole variable that means anything in a MMO, and I jumped the gun. I have seen alot of it recently, and hate it and have a quick trigger. This time it went off in my face. Once again, I stand corrected.

Traxbro · June 2006

No harm done. You're obviously not what i thought you to be at first. Don't believe i've ever seen someone apologize on a forum aside from me LOL. Honestly I'm all about pvp, So as far as i'm concerned the faster I can get done with the leveling process and get on to competitions of skill with other players the happier I am. Also, long grinding pve may be fun on release, but it will always end up in the same place.... PL services, exploiting, macroing/botting... I just don't want to see that happen in HJ

Morneblade · July 2006

I agree with you on all points. Although I'm not as big of a PvPer as you seem to be (I really did enjoy RvR in DaoC though), I'd like the game to be less like work, where you end up spending huge amounts of time "grinding' to get to something worthwhile doing. Thing is, I see alot of people wanting HJ to be something different, and they they start suggesting the exact same things from other games that would just make HJ another EQ/WoW clone. It's been driving me nuts, hence my short fuse and idiocy.

I like to think I'm a big enough person to be able to own up to it when I do something or in this case say something stupid, hehe. It doesnt happen very often, but I'll be the first to say it if I act like a idiot, heh.

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