Titans, What will this change? (discussion, NOT flame thread)

TiredNimbus · February 2006

George, commisioned into the caldari navy at age 27, had been chosen for a "Test run" for the new ship, the Leviathon. It was gigantic! he borded, surprised to see that his ship, a new frigate had been moved onto it. He had been told he would be a part of the squadron formed to take down battleships. pilots of all cinds climbed abord the mammoth. soon enough they launched deep into the enemy galante corperations space...

The ships were being launched by the second, "All pilots to your stations, this is not a drill" was booming over the loudspeaker. he climbed into his frigate and took off with the other part of his squadren. The two corperations were fighting all out to win the day, fighters flying like flies around honey. Battleships heavy cannons pounded at George's general direction, but the clumsy weapons were too big to catch the nimble Frigate. Cruisers launched there missiles in every directions, and frigate went on bombing runs on the great battleships. Not as great as the Leviathan though. The battle dragged for 3 hours, untill a message popped up on his screen "Get back into the leviathan, Were fireing in thirty seconds" thirty seconds to dock untill the whole system would be vaporised...he didnt reilize that a fighter was behind him, george knew he was going to die...He tried to avoid the fighter for as long as possible...

400 caldari lives were lost that day
1200 Galante lives were lost that day

So, the titans, Gods of the sky, we have to admit it, they will be built, but what will the outcome be? will people take on the concord with there doomsday cannon? (God forbid) will we have to bow down to the first corperation to get one of these godly ships? or will we survive in a distant star system, making a revolution to destroy them? Dont flame me please, its just a discussion.

Lallante · February 2006

2 - 3 Dreadnaughts will kill a titan. My corp has 12.

Its not an I-Win button but expect to see BS fleets being a LOT more careful in the presence of one.

Homelander · February 2006

Capital ships are not allowed in empire space and you can only fire a doomsday weapon in the same system as you are in. Like Lallante mentioned, they are not "I Win" buttons, as in, a single ship will not vaporise an entire fleet (unless they get caught with their pants down) however, they add HUGE gang assistance to the fleet that supports them as well as being able to store ships, modules and have a cloning bay , which means, mobile warfare station.

Your pilots get killed a podded, they simply clone jump back to the Titan, pop open a ship, fit it in the hanger and go back into the battlefield.

Will things change yes, will titans be necessary yes, will not having one be the end of the world, absolutely not. Again as Lallante mentionned, a few dreadnaughts can break the tank of a titan quite easily, or even a few carriers, however, if you have an entire fleet of ships being boosted by these mammoths, watch out.

TiredNimbus · February 2006

Yes dreadnaughts are big, yet ships CAN land inside the capital ship, since it probably cant hold its own anyway, its going to have an escort. And the doomsday cannon, I know you have to be in the same system to fire it, Yet does it destroy the ship itself? Sounds like the perfect PvP weapon too me

Ps I heard that they are 10x greater than a space station, does this mean 2-3 dreadnaughts could take down a space staton? If so, I want a dreadnaught :P

Wrayeth · February 2006

The titan's doomsday weapon inflicts roughly 50,000 damage to everything on the grid. It can either be fired from the ship itself or fired from the cynosural field of a gangmate in the same system. It will generally instapop anything smaller than another capital ship, though it is possible (barely) to survive it in a battleship if you're tanked properly for the damage type (90% resist and/or sufficient plates/shield extenders to allow your tank to soak up what gets through the resist) - of course, most normal battleship setups won't be fitted in this specific fashion, meaning they'll get instapopped.

Dreadnoughts, on the other hand, are another matter. Dreadnoughts work entirely different than titans. First, dreadnoughts fire weapons at a locked target. These capital weapons have horrible tracking, meaning they even have problems hitting battleships (turrets), or have a massive explosion radius and low explosion velocity, resulting in limited damage (citadel torpedos). Also, their damage per second in normal combat mode isn't anything to write home about. In most cases, it is somewhat less than that of a ganked-out battleship (assuming the weapons hit at all). In similar fashion, their tanks are strong, but not unbeatable....

However, the siege module, which can only be fit to a dreadnought, changes the equation drastically. When activated, it increases the damage output of the dreadnought by 625%, resulting in massive damage per second, and insane volley damage (the latter more from the phoenix and naglfar dreadnoughts than the revelation and moros). In addition, an activated siege module doubles the amount of shield boosted or armor repaired by the tank, and halves the time it takes for the shield booster/armor repairer to cycle again. Finally, when sieged, a dreadnought is completely immune to ALL forms of electronic warfare.

Despite this, there are drawbacks to siege mode. First and foremost, it lasts for ten minutes and cannot be ended prior to that save by the destruction of the dreadnought itself. Second, the dreadnought is completely immobile during this period and cannot move, warp, or use its jumpdrive. Third, the tracking of capital turrets takes a 92.5% penalty while in siege mode, and the explosion velocity of citadel torpedos likewise takes at 92.5% penalty.

Despite these penalties, if a sieged dread fires at a battleship that's been slowed by two webs, you can expect that ship to die horribly in short order, since the webs reduce its velocity enough for the guns to hit - in fact, it's likely that it will be insta-popped. If you want to see this in action, check out the "Scorpion vs. Phoenix" video on the "Videos and Interviews" section of the official EVE website's forums.

In any case, a sieged dreadnought inflicts the most damage per second of any shiptype in the game (the titan can only use its superweapon once per hour...unless a dev is piloting the titan, then it can be activated at will ).

I'll give a breakdown of the information regarding the various dreadnoughts as I understand it based upon ship stats and input from player who actually own one of these beasts (I should have one, myself, in a few months - they cost a lot, and the skill training is a bitch).

Revelation - A middle-of-the-line dreadnought, not exceptionally good at anything, but not exceptionally horrid, either. Massive lasers and armor repairers say just about everything that needs to be known about these ships.

Moros - The moros has the best anti-ship capability of all the dreadnoughts, its drone and blaster bonuses allowing it to dish out some serious punishment if the pilot knows what he's doing (the moros grants a huge damage bonus to drones, and also a huge hitpoint bonus, making the five heavy drones it can field able to take down battleships and cruisers quite easily). The moros is somewhat weak against player-owned-stations (POS), however, as drones are ineffective against them and the blasters are range-challenged, meaning the moros has to be right on top of the shield if it wants to take out a large control tower (which has the largest shield radius, resulting in the longest distance between shield edge and the tower itself).

Phoenix - The phoenix is a study in contradictions. It has the strongest short-term tank of all the dreadnoughts, but at the same time the least-sustainable tank over the long run. It is the second most effective dreadnought vs. battleships, but is not effective against mobile targets except at point-blank range due to the extreme slowness of citadel torpedos (i.e. flight time). Vs. a POS , which can't warp out before the missiles arrive, it has the second highest damage output of all the dreads, and can effectively attack out to the burnout distance of its missiles. Its damage output and extreme short-term tank also makes the phoenix extremely effective against other capital ships.

Naglfar - This ship pretty much typifies minmatar design philosophy - massive burst damage, mixed weaponry, duct tape, and crappy tracking. Of all the dreadnoughts, the naglfar is probably the least effective against other ships, excepting capital ships - the horrible tracking of its guns limits its ability vs. smaller ships. However, with more weapon slots than any other dreadnought, the naglfar in an autocannon/citadel launcher configuration outputs the most damage of any dreadnought. (The naglfar can fit two turrets, two launchers, and a siege module while the other dreadnoughts can only fit three weapons and a siege module.) Finally, the naglfar's slot layout allows it to tank on either its shields or its armor (not predetermined, as it is for the other races' dreads).

If any of this information is incorrect, please feel free to correct me.

Wrayeth · February 2006

Since I'm already posting regarding titans and dreadnoughts, I figure I might as well also include info about the other capital ships: carriers and motherships.

Carriers are the least expensive capital ships, but are extremely effective against battleships and cruisers, unlike most dreadnoughts. They have no shipboard weapons, but field hordes of fighter drones that each have roughly the firepower of a cruiser. Carriers and motherships are also the only ships capable of fielding more than five drone at a time post-RMR.

Carriers all receive a +1 drone controlled/level bonus from their racial carrier skill, and also a 200% drone range/level bonus. In addition, all carriers receive a bonus to remote armor/shield/capacitor transfer module amount, though the exact bonus types differ from ship to ship, as well as the same CPU reduction for warfare link modules that battlecruisers receive.

Carriers also carry ship fitting arrays and have a limited hangar space in which several frigates can be docked.

One other important note is that fighters attacking a target will follow it into warp if it warps out and continue attacking on the other end until the target is dead, docks, logs, jumps into another system, or the owner of the fighters recalls them.

However, despite their ability to effectively deal with battleships and cruisers (VERY effectively, at that), carriers' tanks are only as effective as two or three battleships' combined, meaning they cannot survive anywhere near the incoming fire that a sieged dread can, and a carrier will always lose a one-on-one vs. a dread capable of sieging up - a dread's damage output vs. a carrier can take it down in fairly short order. In addition, only two of the carriers receive the resistance bonus that would (theoretically) allow them to survive in a fleet engagement.

Archon - The amarr carrier, the archon, has the most armor hitpoints of all the carriers, and is also one of two carriers that can theoretically actually be present in fleet combat and survive, thanks to its massive armor and armor resistance bonus.

Thanatos - The gallente carrier, while it does not receive a tanking bonus, is the most effective carrier offensively. It receives a bonus to fighter damage output, and, like the other carriers, it can hand off its fighters to the control of gangmates in the same system while it sits safely in a safespot.

Chimera - The caldari version of the carrier, it has the most shields of all the carrier types, and also receives a bonus to shield resistances, making it the only other carrier aside from the archon to have the ability to survive a fleet engagement. In fact, due to the short-term superiority of shield tanking, it can tank more incoming damage than the archon can, but this is balanced by the fact that shield tanks are, ultimately, unsustainable.

Nidhoggur - The final carrier, the minmatar version, is widely regarded as probably the least useful of the four carrier types. It receives no tanking or drone damage bonus, but does receive a bonus that reduces the cycle time of remote armor repairers and shield transfer arrays - hardly useful in a fleet fight, since a.) the nidhoggur doesn't have the tank to survive, and b.) the extremely long lock time and inability to know which targets the enemy fleet will focus fire on will prevent the nidhoggur from making effective use of its remote repair bonus. While the bonus does make this ship more effective at repairing ships that have left the fight, this is regarded by most as far less useful than the other carriers' bonuses.

Motherships are basically carriers on a larger scale. They have more hitpoints, more hangar space, more cargo bay, more slots, and can control 3 extra drones/level instead of 1/level. Moreover, motherships, like titans and sieged dreadnoughts, are completely immune to all electronic warfare.

In addition to this, motherships can be fitted with clone vat bays, allowing pilots to to store their clones and jump clones there. Combined with the fact that they have hangar space to store ships in, this allows friendly pilots killed in battle to get back to the fight that much more quickly - they get podded, wake up in the mothership, and can grab a frig out of the mothership's hangar.

The last major difference between carriers and motherships is that the latter gets a bonus allowing one extra warfare link module to be fitted per level of the racial carrier skill.

Overall, motherships, while their tanking ability is little better than that of the base-line carrier (mostly due to a few extra slots), have enough raw hitpoints and capacitor to survive in a fleet battle where a carrier cannot. In addition, the motherships' combined damage output from their fighters approaches that of a sieged dread, meaning they can pretty much instapop a battleship (without requiring special measures to be taken to achieve that outcome, like dreads do).

That said, IIRC, a dread vs. a mothership in head-to-head combat would usually favor the dreadnought (dreadnoughts' primary purpose is to take out capital ships and POS - everything else is secondary - while motherships and carriers are generally more geared towards dealing with smaller ships).

Bearing in mind that, aside from the changes noted above, the motherships have the exact same bonuses as their smaller counterparts, with the same strengths and weaknesses, these are the mothership types:

Aeon - Amarr

Nyx - Gallente

Wyvern - Caldari

Hel - Minmatar

In closing, I'd just like to affirm the cost of these ships by base cost (which is also their expected effectiveness level in a fleet per Oveur):

Carriers --> Dreadnoughts --> Motherships --> Titans

Carriers ~ 750 million

Dreadnoughts ~ 1.5 billion

Motherships ~ 14 billion

Titans ~ 50 billion

As you can see, these ships aren't intended to be available to everyone individually. Aside from the carriers and the dreadnoughts, it will be a rare player indeed who is able to afford a capital ship on his own (and even the carriers and dreadnoughts are difficult, both in terms of ISK and skill points, for a solo player to acquire). Rather, these ships are geared more towards corporate and alliance level efforts to obtain one.

Also, these ships have very specialized roles and are not truly suited for general use in most circumstances - for instance, you'll never use a dreadnought as a commerce raider, as they aren't exactly the fastest and most mobile ships in EVE. However, when used properly to meet their intended role, these ships can be absolutely devastating.

TiredNimbus · February 2006

Thanks for the info. It seems that a fully equipped corp with dreadnaughts could take down a capital, yet the doomsday weapon plus an escort of Dreadnaught and battleship destroying ships could prove a mighty defence, and if push came to shove, hopefully the dreadnaughts arn't equipped to survive the blast of the cannon...

Wrayeth · February 2006

Unless its tank is already gone, a properly setup dread with good resistances can easily weather the superweapon. It'll take out half the dread's shields or armor, depending on how the dread is tanking, but the dread can quickly rep back to full and continue ripping the titan a new one. However, any support the dread might've had (i.e. battleships, cruisers, frigs, pods, etc.) would be so much sidewalk splatter.

Homelander · February 2006

Nice posts Wrayeth, although I would like to point out that you neglected to mention that in siege mode, dreadnaughts also get a -92.5% penalty to their sensor strength, which means it takes about 2 1/2 - 3 minutes to lock a target. This can change the outcome of alot of fights if a dread pilot is forced to go into siege mode, he won't be able to lock any additional targets for quite some time. (i.e. warp in attack the pilot, he goes into siege, warp out, warp back in and now he has to take a beating for 2-3 minutes before he can attack anyone). And believe me, if setup properly, 7-8 battleships will down a dread. Or even a squadron of T2 cruisers, since they are quite hard to hit, makes them just that much more annoying.

As for the superweapons, they are designed as either :

1) pre-emptive strikes against an enemy fleet (destroy all support ships and heavily damage them THEN warp in your own fleet).

or as

2) a "finishing blow" delt during a battle to destroy your enemies that have probably already soaken up alot of damage already.

Major problem is however that the weapon damages all ships within the same grid, which means, even your friends get spanked. The exception to this rule however is when the weapon is used through a cynosural field, since pilots inside a field are immune to damage, the superweapon dosen't effect them.

As for capital ships being slow, I have to protest, if your in a group with good planning and logistical skills, the bloody things move faster than interceptors. Since the jump drives at decent skill levels can get about 4-10 jumps at times (depends on actual light years and not gates) , you can get the dreads moving 30-50 jumps in under 20 minutes. You figure, even a "chase" model ceptor kitted out in speed modules with insta-bookmarks takes an average of 1 minute per system, the capital ships move quite fast indeed.

Thoemse · February 2006

Originally posted by Lallante
2 - 3 Dreadnaughts will kill a titan. My corp has 12.Its not an I-Win button but expect to see BS fleets being a LOT more careful in the presence of one.

As a dreadnought üilot i can tell ya that you are 100% wrong.

Titans are immune to EW. There is no way you can keep them from jumping out of the system while you shoot it.

The only way to kill one is jumping on top of it with 10+ dreads and hope that you kill it before he gets a mate to open a field.

@dakill: Takes 50 seconds to lock a BS in siege mode roughly.

Wrayeth · February 2006

IIRC, capital ships need to be moving at 75% of max speed or more to operate their jump drive, just like trying to warp. This means you can bump the capital ship and prevent it from doing anything.

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong - all info being posted by me regarding capital ships is hearsay or information gleaned by examining the ship and module stats.

Homelander · February 2006

No, jump drives can activated when going 0 m/s , however, in the case of carriers and dreadnaughts, you can be warp scrambled which means you can't jump, in the case of titans and motherships which are immune to EW, they can always jump to a nearby field in range.

As for 50 seconds to lock a BS, that's still quite a bit of time for that group to start pounding on your tank, the tests I was doing actualy involved a pilot who only has signature analysis level 3 or so, could explain for the longer locks as well as fighting against pilots with halo implants in their heads. ::::31::

T2 angel implants 4tw.

squeee · February 2006

When you are figuring the price of a titan dont forget the initial start up cost of buying a BPO, which will run you roughly 60bil. So figure a industrial corp wanting to recoup the cost of making the titan + initial cost of BPO + traditional EVE markup = probably close to 100bil for the first few titans to on the market in probably something like 6 months.

But you can buy a carrier bpo for less than one billion. I've already seen mega alliances such as MC yield these in operations, plus rumors are ASCN owns a few. Odds are others are well on their way if not already there. So get ready you safe spot huggers, fighters are comming after you no matter where you go, muhahaha.

Thoemse · February 2006

Originally posted by squeee
When you are figuring the price of a titan dont forget the initial start up cost of buying a BPO, which will run you roughly 60bil. So figure a industrial corp wanting to recoup the cost of making the titan + initial cost of BPO + traditional EVE markup = probably close to 100bil for the first few titans to on the market in probably something like 6 months.But you can buy a carrier bpo for less than one billion. I've already seen mega alliances such as MC yield these in operations, plus rumors are ASCN owns a few. Odds are others are well on their way if not already there. So get ready you safe spot huggers, fighters are comming after you no matter where you go, muhahaha.

I can assure you we will see titans earlier. I think it will be June.

Homelander · February 2006

ASCN currently has a half dozen carriers in full service, with about 20 more in the current building roaster, BOB has probably twice that many and are surely looking to purchase more, as for Titans, expect to see them this march. ::::20::

As for their costs, the minerals alone (off average market price) come in at $52,000,000,000 ISK. You Tack on another $65,000,000,000 ISK for the BPO and THEN you have another $25,000,000,000 ISK in component BPO's.

And if you only had 1 of each component BPO, it would take you about 2 months to simply get the pieces together THEN you have to put them all together in a POS anchored starship construction platform and keep it fuel and defended for 4 weeks. (Oh and yes, the logistics are horrible moving about 5,500 capital construction pieces that take 10,000 cargo each from the factory to the POS where they must be assembled together.)

So figure, initial investment of the first titan class is quite a bit over $150B ISK. Gotta tack on cost of POS fuels/factory slots and so on.

If they are ever sold through trading, I would say they would cost alot closer to 125 to a 150 billion isk. Simply due to the logistics involved in getting everything put together.

As for their use, can you say "doomsday device" I mean, that is like, worth the while by itself ::::31:: oh yeah, and the +7.5% bonuses to your entire gang in whatever system your titan is located is quite useful as well. +30% cap recharge to all ceptors, battleships, carriers and dreadnaughts attacking your space is just plain nasty. Although right now clone vat bays and jump bridges still aren't seeded, it shouldn't be much longer before titans and motherships reach their full potential.

P.S. Still waiting on my capital transfer arrays ::::27::

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Titans, What will this change? (discussion, NOT flame thread)

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