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Where Are Your Lines In The Sand Drawn?
AlBQuirky
Member EpicPosts: 7,432
When does "difficult" become "too hard?"
When does "challenging content" become "tedious?"
When does "fun" become "un-fun?"
I do feel for the developers of today. We players are spoiled. We are quick to leave an MMO an almost any old excuse. I wonder if there are many developers with any hair left that they have not yet pulled out by the roots 
Where are your lines drawn?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Comments
My line in the sand is 'Free to play"....
There are themparks I have enjoyed, sandboxes I have enjoyed, tab targeting, skill based, PVE, PVP - You name it. I have found some fun out of most types of games although as a whole I think most are pretty poor.
I have even (at times) given in and tried F2P games. And never again...never again. lol
Has to be subscription based, has to be open world with open world dungeons "lite instancing ok" and I have to see the game go past at least two weeks without someone hitting max level....good luck right? These days many players hit max level with 24-48 hours. Game needs to be soloable but "VERY" challenging which would encourage grouping but not require it.
Also it would be nice to see that the economy isn't busted within 5 days of launch as has been the case with alot of recent F2P games in the past 2 years, actually 5 days is being generous most MMORPG economies these days are busted within 24 hours of launch. Just a decent economy in general with worthwhile crafting/resourcing would be nice, ya know.
I consider this me being fair, lol. Doesn't cover all the bases but would certainly be a good start, especially considering the current state. To me pretty much F2P is a bust, so I guess i'll draw my line right there.....no more F2P for me since it seems to pretty much be what kicked the downfall into full throttle and is too much of a slippery slope.
Difficulty
I tend to consider myself average to above average. I will tackle and often succeed at high end content if I'm so inclined.
On difficulty, I draw no lines on how difficult content can optionally be. A game can have any number of difficulty levels on its instanced content, and it should definitely have some epic-tier open world quests or bosses.
Where I draw the line, however, is on rewards. If the best gear (defined by stats) can only be obtained by grinding the hardest content, I tend to give the game a thumbs down. I'll forgive it if this distinction only matters in PvE, but when it dictates PvP as well, it becomes unacceptable. If, on the other hand, the highest difficulties are used to obtain the best gear faster than other methods or their rewards are simply amazing, exclusive skins that happen to share the best-in-stat status with the best-in-stat items of other content, then the setup becomes ideal for me.
Business model
If a game has a subscription fee, it damn well better justify said subscription fee. Content updates better warrant the model. The quality of the game had better impress me, and it must have a free trial that allows me to decide whether or not the quality of the product is high or not. Otherwise I'm going to turn it down for the sheer audacity of the developer for charging a subscription on a mediocre product.
On cash shops, i am strictly C&C (cosmetics and convenience) only. I define pay-to-win as "anything sold for real money that gives one player a performance advantage over another player of their level," with the sole exception being currency conversion. If something breaks this, it steps over the line.
Customization
A lot of games have crappy customization. I have to force myself to accept that at times.
I loathe race locking, but can tolerate it to a degree, when done logically. I loathe racial advantages, though they tend to be minor and insignificant, and so I forgive them.
I do not tolerate rampant gender locking of classes. I expect to be able to play the class I want as the gender I want. There is no reason for it to be otherwise, save for developer laziness or historical accuracy (which should generally be sacrificed when it harms gameplay).
A game reaches a point of no return, however, when it throws personal roleplaying out of the window entirely. Games like Vindictus and Elsword give you premade identities attached to their character kits. That's a locked gender, a locked story, a locked race, a locked everything. And that's not acceptable. That is NEVER acceptable in an MMO format.
Combat
Combat must have a certain amount of depth, whether in terms of mechanical skill (prevalent in action combat games like Guild Wars 2) or tactical/knowledge-based skill - preferably both.
I can accept a game with tab target combat if it is deep on a tactical and skill-building level.
I can accept action combat if it is fluid and mobile.
I will love combat if it is all of these - fluid, mobile, and tactically deep with a great build system.
I will NOT play the game, however, if it lacks either of these essential forms of depth. Without either mechanical skill or intellectual skill, a game is nothing more than dull, mindless dice-rolling - it is Runescape, and that is not acceptable in this day and age.
mneah.... F2P shows its true and very ugly colours quickly.
Feels too much like I'm being pitched to. It's like going to church or something.
I start to lose interest in difficult games when the game is designed to "cheat" at harder settings. It happens a lot in strategy games. The computer gets perfect vision of the map. They get unlimited resources. They begin with most of their base built.
In fighting games on high difficult settings the computer player can punish moves that would require humans to have near psychic like reflexes or plain dumb luck. Or when the game ignores the charge times on moves ( Guile's sonic boom is a classic case ).
I like a tough game, but let's all play by the same rules.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Lol +1
Q: Where are your lines in the sand drawn?
A: In the sand, of course.
it depends on how fun the game is, EQ was really hard, but you had a community and it was fun, so I didn't mind it
if the game is boring, then I would mind a hard game, because it would just make it extra boring
I won't play a game if it is really easy like a Marvel Heroes or the current WoW.
I won't pay a sub for a game unless it is a really special game in some way. There is no good reason to put a sub fee on games anymore unless you have something like actively run events so you are hiring loads more staff than most games do. It is just an outdated payment model.
I won't play another game that doesn't offer open world PvP on at least one server. PvE is just way too boring without PvP to mix it up.
I doubt I'll play another game that heavily instances the dungeons.
I doubt I'll play another game that delevels you in lower level content, it is just a clunky and poorly thought out mechanic. Letting me do it on purpose is fine but forcing it is just terrible.
Basically everything games have done in the past 10 years is a big no no.
What he really means is. If you disagree/dislike anything related to Trion/AA.
Here are mine.
Subcriptions. I have nothing against subcription games, and I do believe it's a very valid payment model for MMOs current and future... but being in Venezuela means I can't legally pay online more than $300 a year. I'm not going to spend most of it paying a sub considering that there are enough excellent quality options (IMHO) where I don't have to.
World becoming obsolete as you level. I'll say it, GW2 has spoiled me on this particular one. I don't want a game with a huge beautiful world and lots of very interesting and thematically different zones... that you only visit briefly while leveling and then spend all your time in one or two top level areas when you hit level cap and forget about the rest of the world.
Forced open world PvP. I know lots of people enjoy open world PvP, and wouldn't consider a game without that... I'm perfectly fine with that as long as it's optional. If the game doesn't have at least one non open world PvP server, I just won't go near it.
Multiple hours activities as the only possible progression. This is why I left WoW back during WotLK. I don't have anything against hardcore raiding, and actually did a little of it back in my time... but these days with a full time job, wife, son, studies (back to university to finish my engineering degree) I just don't have time to devote several hours of uninterrupted time to it. Offer it as an option, and I'm perfectly ok with it. Offer it as the only way to progress further once you reach a certain point, then I'm not interested.
What can men do against such reckless hate?
P2P. I find the people that choose to pay a subscription conform to a mindset that consistently is proven wrong, and yet they will continue to swear to it's superiority. I just have a difficult time socializing with people who continue to do the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, all the while expecting different results.
PvPvE. I don't want my PvE mixed with my PvP.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
If I were a Dev and read this thread, my response would be:
MMO? No way , not touching one those with a 110 foot pole!
A million and one lines in the sand!?!? How are we supposed to design for this?
Answer? Simple: a million and one different games.....right?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Aha - I was just trying to figure out how to explain what my line in the sand was, and this captures it pretty neatly. Although I generally prefer games which don't have PvP, that's so few of them that it's just impractical to draw a line in the sand there. So I'll tolerate games which have PvP, but not if it can't be avoided without being disadvantaged in the PvE elements of the game that I actually want to play.
Incredibly limited skill bars. If the game seems designed for console controllers, it's going to put me off (unless I play it on consoles, obviously). I don't need Mechwarrior circa '99 levels of hotkeys.. But limiting me to 5-6 choices puts me off of the game immediately
Poor optimization. I paid for a pretty powerful PC that is less than a year old. If I have to turn MMO graphics down to medium/low to achieve a good framerate, I'll probably log off and not load your game again. Obviously, this would presuppose the game isn't utilizing cutting-edge graphics. Most MMOs cannot claim that feature.
Too much instancing. I despise being taken out of the gameworld I logged into because the developers want to script me a story where I'm the "one true hero." If I wanted to be the one true hero, I'd play a single player game. I really would rather the main story somehow INVOLVE other players than exclude them artificially. Why isn't the main story about your regiment (you and other players you may cooperate with) and its part in the rebel army's fight? Why does everyone have to be the last hope of that army? I hate this type of story.
Obviously, I've found very few MMOs that don't cross those lines. Ahh well. Saves me money.
These are difficult questions to answer. By and large, there's next to no MMO content that is "too hard" in and off itself. "Too hard" in MMOs is generally defined by the amount of effort expended to complete a task. I've not encountered an MMO where I was simply incapable of completing something based on mechanics alone.
Generally, anything that must be repeated on a regular basis (questing, dungeon grinding, crafting) becomes massively tedious if repeating these tasks requires mental, physical, or organizational effort.
Raiding is something that is done infrequent enough and stands as the ultimate goal of the game, so this can be as challenging as it needs to be to encourage time spent in the game and to provide a sense of accomplishment when an encounter is finally completed.
This balance is what I think WoW does so well. Too many MMOs simply make questing and dungeon grinding tedious to the point of where I just get annoyed and quit after awhile.
If I don't feel enjoyment in the game. If it feels like in order to do good I need tons of information not provided in the game. If I feel the only reason some things were put in the game are only to make me level slower. If I feel like my reward for finding a great build is a nerf. If it feels like in order to level in the game I have to craft, join a guild, wait for a group to do most content, use food and drink to keep from dieing most of the time. High learning curve, with difficulty for the sake of difficulty.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I find myself nodding in agreement with some of your thoughts and finding other points of less import to myself. Got me thinking
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Agreed. Let's play the same set of rules, please
LOL It was bound to happen! Does this mean that players are what cross the line for playing an MMO or not? Or is this strictly about message boards?- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
The world becoming obsolete is another great point. I wonder if this is more a "player attitude" rather than a development thing. Unlike you, I disliked GW2's handling of it by de-leveling the players. There are other ways to help high level players come back to early zones.
EQ handled it well with spell components that were off of level 1 mobs (bat wings and Skeleton Bones). High Level players (with lots of cash) would go to low level zones and broadcast that they were buying stacks of these components for 1 PP.
CoH introduced the Sidekick/Mentor feature which made different players the same level so they could group together. This allowed for low level characters to play in upper level areas and high level players play in low level areas again, or that they missed the first time around. The difference here between CoH and GW2 is that CoH was a choice. If one got into "trouble", they could "un-sidekick/mentor" and take of the situation. GW2 you were stuck at a lower level as long as you were in the zone.
The PvP I agree with, too. I dislike the activity and will avoid MMOs that do not give me the option to decline.
The multiple hours... I can see your point. I happen to miss that, though, in MMOs. Spending weekends with in game acquaintances or friends was all kinds of fun for me, way back when. But there are times, especially with new MMOs, where I log on and do not feel like spending hours in the game. I should be clear, though, multiple hour tasks for the sake of multiple hour tasks is never good design. EQ's Epic Quests were truly epic. Sure, there was some amount of camping mobs for a "chance loot drop", but overall, they had great stories behind them made players work for their epics.
I'm one of those mindsets you do not likeThe PvPvE I agree with. 2 very different playstyles that do not mix well, in my opinion.
Not only a million and one, as some here have listed multiple lines- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
While it is a good question I think this is part of the gaming communities problem. Too much focus on likes, dislikes, hatreds past game mechanics brought into current games and not enough on just playing games. You have to play the cards you are dealt.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
My line is the sand is mostly F2P. I've tried many over the years and never found 1 I enjoyed much. The quality is always lower and if I can find a little enjoyment in it for a brief time, to get anywhere, it ends up costing more than a sub. So I pretty much just stay away from them. If 1 does come out that really interests me, I give it a shot, but it never fails to disappoint.
Extremely limited skills and skill bars. Not a deal breaker, but I've noticed the more simplified and less varied the game, the less I want to play it. Even EQ had 8 spells plus skills if hybrids and a slew of passives, where as something with 4 active and 4 passives just doesn't cut it. Oh and I really don't like having to weapon swap to use other skills. Just seems like it is making an easy automatic step tedious and onerous by making it manual. Let me see my 12 skills and determine when to use them instead of making me switch between 3 weapons to use them.
I hope for more depth in games, but it just seems to go the opposite direction these days. And if there happens to be some, it is so poorly executed, that it almost causes others not to bother adding any to their games.
*sigh* end rant
tldr F2P, maybe limited skills,
OH FFA PVP, especially with no consequence which is like all of them.
Repeated activities I certainly agree with. Daily Quests are not my thing. As you pointed out, crafting often times falls into this.
As for raiding, that activity is too hectic for me. I just can not keep track of groups of teammates over 10 or so. I do understand other players' love for it, though. They worked on their characters to get them to the top and now want to use those skills and abilities.
Yea, it does come to a fine balance that each individual player defines sometimes differently
Out of game info is a big one for me, too. I bought the game to play it, not spend my time on Google, Wiki's, or YouTube. This also destroys the "discovery" aspect I enjoy about video games.Lengthening time to level for the sake of making it take longer is bad design, in my mind. However, there needs to be some amount of effort in leveling, in my opinion. Time to get used to new skills/abilities/spells and figure out how they work. This may be a portion of "When does challenging become tedious?"
Nerfs suck. On every level of them. And the other parts (food and drink, forced grouping, Guild Joining) should be optional, not a requirement. Add to this WoW's add-on usage as a requirement in boss fights, having the game built around the info those add-ons provide to make it impossible to play without them.
Great points
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR