I always enjoyed the character flexibility of Pathfinder tabletop compared to that of ADnD 2. Although newer DnD rulesets aim to close this gap. I am very happy to see this reality making its way to your online iteration.
When I saw your kickstarter campaign I honestly did not feel that this game would fit my personal game play requirements. However after reading some of your answers, including the fact that you are even participating in an open discussion here, I am back on board.
I especially like your comparisons to Eve with a high fantasy setting. Eve is one of the few truly open sandbox games I have enjoyed.
I look forward to following your games development.
Thanks for visiting and your direct replies.
Del Cabon A US Army ('Just Cause') Vet and MMORPG Native formerly of Trinsic, Norath and Dereth. Currently playing LOTRO.
I've seen a few people complain about the graphics. Yes graphically the game is a little dated, but from what I have experienced so far the game play makes up for it. My only gripe so far is the combat animations need a little polish.
Originally posted by Viper482 I do have a question. What made you come to the decision to have a subscription based testing period with the game still under development? Many people such as myself would gladly pay a one time fee to support worthy titles under development, but asking for a monthly fee on top of that is crossing the line in my opinion. This is obviously not the norm, and many big named finished titles have moved away from the sub model, ESO being the most recent, because it did not work for them. Why do you think this is the best route for a game trying to get off the ground?
There are many people who would support sub based games. Too many people are skin flints and don't want to shell out money for an inexpensive entertainment choice.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
There is a program in place to get players to try the game. Much like in EVE Online there is a trial offer for a "Buddy Key", a 15-day free trial that you can get from any one of a number of forum posters. You can email me at Fanndis.Goldbraid@gmail.com , or any one of the many players that are currently in game. Some of the players feel it is too early to offer a free trial at this time, as there are some rough spots in several areas. But many of us like the idea of getting in early, getting to influence the direction of the game in some ways (through a system call "Crowdforging") and getting to start our characters and settlements at the earliest possible time.
Also keep an eye out for promotional discounts. The basic buy in is currently $50 for the game download and one month of game time. One promotion recently ended that gave a $10 discount off that $50 price. Goblinworks has said there will be many more, so just keep on the look out.
Originally posted by coretex666 Hello,I would like to take advantage of this opportunity and ask a question.Why dont you implement some sort of free trial?
Originally posted by MacroPlanet With a market filled to the brim with kickstarter games and MMO's releasing what seems like every week; what is there for someone that has been in the MMO market for over 17 years that I cannot find anywhere else?
I'd say we're a little bit like the iPhone.
Mr Dancy, I used an Iphone. I knew people who used Iphones. I Phone was a friend of mine. Mr Dancey, you're no Iphone
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Originally posted by Viper482 I do have a question. What made you come to the decision to have a subscription based testing period with the game still under development?
We're engaged in a process we call Crowdforging with our Early Enrollees. Their input is having meaningful substantial impact on our work so that they're actually helping us design the game. That's not just lip service - if you spend some times on our forums you'll see how much attention to we pay to the community and how often we change course based on what they're telling us they like and don't like about the project.
In reality how large is the pool of people "Crowdforging"? When I read your forums I see maybe dozens of people doing this "Crowdforging".
Taking your advice I looked at your forums. In particular the one dedicated to "Crowdforging". Going back to the inception of the forum in August 2014 there are EXACTLY 2 threads that have 100 or more posts. and most of those posts are just a few PvP people and a few PvE people arguing about PvP. Most topics have single digit responses. That doesn't strike me as "crowdforging". Its the same dozen guys posting 80% of the messages...
Maybe that was your vision from the beginning but I honestly thought there would be thousands of people participating. My suggestion is that when you have a few dozen hardcore fans giving you 95% of your "Crowdforging" and you "change course based on what they're telling" you, you should re-evaluate the plan. The hardcore fans will lead you down a really dark tunnel to a game that nobody wants to play.
The hook you are using to get people to sub during this Early Enrollment is that their characters earn XP based on sub-time. You combine that with your No Wipe promise so people willing to pay you hundreds of dollars will have a huge edge when you get to actual release (Open Enrollment). There will NEVER, EVER be a way for new characters to catch up to those people who paid hundreds of dollars to be in Early Enrollment. Even if there were some theoretical way that after a year the new players would be close to the old ones, they will never make it. This is a game based around PvP and territory control. Giving people willing to pay hundreds of dollars such a huge edge in a PvP game is IMHO crazy. Hey, it's your company, but I did spend something like $250 on it so consider this my version of Crowdforging:
Stop this Early Enrollment stuff. Call it what it is, a limited early beta. Stop charging a sub for it. Use the time for actual testing and developing. Work on getting actual functional systems in game for key components like:
Combat (Not having every ranged attack self stun you would be a good start but so much more needs to happen...)
Territory Control (instead of building holdings, selected guilds were given theirs fully built also there is no mechanism for attacking these holdings instead there is a placeholder of tower sin the wilderness that you are supposed to care about but few do) Actually, no core systems should be placeholders if you are charging a sub.
UI (Hey maybe something as basic as being able to scroll text? I mean, if a guild has more than a few members you cant even scroll to see past the first few?)
Flagging (Game is built around PvP... currently you cannot heal red flagged characters.. PvP encounters become a game of trying to trick the other guy to turn red first...)
Then once the game is in an actual releasable state with combat that is fun, a somewhat modern UI and non-placeholder core systems such as Territory Control, then start 'Open Enrollment" and charge a sub. I get your point about needing money, but that comes down to a business plan. Find another source. I can absolutely GUARANTEE that you are not going to generate any significant revenue from subs once the pre-paid time runs out in a month or two. All you are going to do is turn off a significant amount of your potential core base. Maybe I'm wrong, but I really don't think so. You don't have a bad game, but you are trying to sell a blatantly incomplete product by wordsmithing and calling things Early Enrollment instead of Alpha/Beta. Your current incarnation is simply a paid Alpha/Beta with the promise not to wipe so that supporters get an edge at "release". The reason I state that it is an Alpha/Beta is because it is utterly lacking in core features. Placeholders are exactly what you find in an Alpha/Beta. If you were just polishing features or balancing systems that would be different.
OK. That's my $250 worth (and 4 accounts) of feedback. Take it however you want. I have logged in a total of once on one account in the last 30 days. Once the 4 months of pre-paid time runs out that will be it. $250 is as much support as I am willing to give and once I stop subscribing, due to the way XP is earned and the fact that this is a PvP based game... I will not reactivate.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Who's idea was it to take the Pathfinder brand and create a game so far away from the source material that it makes no sense? Instead of creating a living fantasy world, filled with dungeons and adventure you've created what amounts to another random gank-fest survival game. We've got plenty of those out on the market. Who made this choice? Why? Even with the PvE elements and dungeons in the game I can't remember the last time I sat around a table of people playing Pathfinder and thought to myself... "Hey, it'd be really cool if I could murder my teammates and take their loot all for my own." The entire idea behind this game goes against everything that tabletop games stand for. Co-operation, teamwork, adventuring with friends, etc, etc.
I'm kind of ashamed that this is going to be the first Pathfinder PC game to make it to the market. I think with a brand as strong as Pathfinder with a world as lore filled/rich with information we could have got something far more substantial and thought-provoking.
Who's idea was it to take the Pathfinder brand and create a game so far away from the source material that it makes no sense? Instead of creating a living fantasy world, filled with dungeons and adventure you've created what amounts to another random gank-fest survival game. We've got plenty of those out on the market. Who made this choice? Why? Even with the PvE elements and dungeons in the game I can't remember the last time I sat around a table of people playing Pathfinder and thought to myself... "Hey, it'd be really cool if I could murder my teammates and take their loot all for my own." The entire idea behind this game goes against everything that tabletop games stand for. Co-operation, teamwork, adventuring with friends, etc, etc.
I'm kind of ashamed that this is going to be the first Pathfinder PC game to make it to the market. I think with a brand as strong as Pathfinder with a world as lore filled/rich with information we could have got something far more substantial and thought-provoking.
On your first point, PFO is anything but a gankfest. There is very limited PVP opportunities, unless you want to arrange them, and that is not PVP, that is training.
As for your second point, the D&D group I played in for almost 12 years, and no rules against direct PVP or indirect subterfuge, larceny or even assassination. We typically played Chaotic characters, sometimes Neutrals but with not so savory intentions.
Although I never played Pathfinder TT, from what I understand, it is not even an option or it is strongly discouraged to play evil characters. PnP has its Care Bears as well I guess.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
How can I get a 15-day trial/ buddy key? if you can get me one please send to stryderhdproductions@gmail.com much appreciated! Would love to try this game out!
I am a very old school D&D player (tabletop) who reluctantly left 2nd edition to jump into Pathfinder (skipping 3rd edition entirely save for browsing the books) and I am in love with the system. Run a monthly game at my home with some of my original group from high school and we've all decided that pathfinder is probably among the better RPG systems we've ever played.
I was ecstatic when I heard of this game and very hopeful that we would finally see a more open world 'sandbox-y' fantasy game with some real depth and complexity ala Eve Online but with actual toons and not spaceships. On paper, this is the game ive been waiting for.
Last week someone here was kind enough to give me a friends key. I was certain you would have a purchase and another subscriber (I prefer sub games and avoid F2P) once I was able to test run the game. My first couple hours I was very much liking the amount of depth I was seeing but the UI and some of the systems just didnt click with me - Now, the systems not 'clicking' with me is a good thing-It usually means there is lots of complexity once I have the patience to learn rather than the simplistic way classes are usually presented in most MMOs ... But...
It was not intuitive at all. It felt clunky and cumbersome (the UI and the ...game) and I really ... really dont think I like how the classless system works over taking a more standard approach with the Pathfinder books and supplements as gospel... Maybe its just me- But It didnt grab me. And it should have... I hate spaceship games and Eve still managed to grab me. I LOVE fantasy and pathfinder and this MMO should have really been 'the one'. I've been wanting a sub game to play again since forever and its so unfortunate that this one felt very unfinished and seems like something I am not going to enjoy.
Now..I know this is early access and this is why I generally never even consider paying for early access or Alpha games. Hopefully things will be different down the road. But the system of leveling (like eve) and the classless characters is something I don't think appeals tome and will not change. The FFA PVP is something I avoid but would deal with IF it could be kept from being an arena as opposed to a sandbox.
I wish you guys luck. You have a stellar IP on your hands.
On your first point, PFO is anything but a gankfest. There is very limited PVP opportunities, unless you want to arrange them, and that is not PVP, that is training.
As for your second point, the D&D group I played in for almost 12 years, and no rules against direct PVP or indirect subterfuge, larceny or even assassination. We typically played Chaotic characters, sometimes Neutrals but with not so savory intentions.
Although I never played Pathfinder TT, from what I understand, it is not even an option or it is strongly discouraged to play evil characters. PnP has its Care Bears as well I guess.
Anyone who uses 'care bear' as a descriptor is simply ignorant. Beyond that though, that's great that you and your group decided to play a bunch of chaotic murder hobos who'd have no problem killing a party member on a whim. Don't act like that's in the spirit of the game though, because it's not. I've been playing tabletop games and DMing for a lot longer than I've played PC games and I'm no stranger to pvp, often times when it happens I encourage it because it's a pivotal moment or something has gone terribly wrong in the party dynamic. Fact of the matter is, when playing a tabletop rpg it shines when the group is working together and far less so when PvP happens. Especially when you're playing in what many would consider a 'normal' game, such as society play or other structured campaign systems like that.
If there's open PvP, it's going to happen and you're going to have toxic players. It doesn't matter what they do to try to stop it unless it's in very limited areas. Which going by the information on their website, isn't the case. It will eventually devolve into a gank fest. If it has garners enough attention to pull enough people in for it become something more than it already is. My point being: For being one of the first games out of the gate and using the Pathfinder brand, this is truly a shame. Maybe one day they'll find enough success or a compentent developer who can create the next Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale or even Planescape Torment. Another generic survival/crafting game isn't needed.
Originally posted by BluddwolfOn your first point, PFO is anything but a gankfest. There is very limited PVP opportunities, unless you want to arrange them, and that is not PVP, that is training.As for your second point, the D&D group I played in for almost 12 years, and no rules against direct PVP or indirect subterfuge, larceny or even assassination. We typically played Chaotic characters, sometimes Neutrals but with not so savory intentions. Although I never played Pathfinder TT, from what I understand, it is not even an option or it is strongly discouraged to play evil characters. PnP has its Care Bears as well I guess.
Anyone who uses 'care bear' as a descriptor is simply ignorant. Beyond that though, that's great that you and your group decided to play a bunch of chaotic murder hobos who'd have no problem killing a party member on a whim. Don't act like that's in the spirit of the game though, because it's not. I've been playing tabletop games and DMing for a lot longer than I've played PC games and I'm no stranger to pvp, often times when it happens I encourage it because it's a pivotal moment or something has gone terribly wrong in the party dynamic. Fact of the matter is, when playing a tabletop rpg it shines when the group is working together and far less so when PvP happens. Especially when you're playing in what many would consider a 'normal' game, such as society play or other structured campaign systems like that.
If there's open PvP, it's going to happen and you're going to have toxic players. It doesn't matter what they do to try to stop it unless it's in very limited areas. Which going by the information on their website, isn't the case. It will eventually devolve into a gank fest. If it has garners enough attention to pull enough people in for it become something more than it already is. My point being: For being one of the first games out of the gate and using the Pathfinder brand, this is truly a shame. Maybe one day they'll find enough success or a compentent developer who can create the next Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale or even Planescape Torment. Another generic survival/crafting game isn't needed.
Your completely right! The way he is playing the game is wrong! That's not the way it's meant to be played, him finding enjoyment from PVP instead of working together is just heresy, that's not the spirit of the game!
"it's going to happen, muh gankfest"
There are also plenty of games with harsh death penalties and open world PVP with few limitations that are not complete "gankfests" (Tibia, Runescape, Wurm, Salem spring to mind)
Your completely right! The way he is playing the game is wrong! That's not the way it's meant to be played, him finding enjoyment from PVP instead of working together is just heresy, that's not the spirit of the game!
"it's going to happen, muh gankfest"
There are also plenty of games with harsh death penalties and open world PVP with few limitations that are not complete "gankfests" (Tibia, Runescape, Wurm, Salem spring to mind)
Who is actually the ignorant one here?
You by the looks of it. I didn't say he was playing the game wrong, but for anybody who's played dungeons and dragons or pathfinder I'm pretty comfortable in saying that PvP isn't the intent of the game. It can happen, sure, but it's not the main focus of the game. At the heart of those tabletop games it's about sitting around a table and running a dungeon with friends. Originating from a war game or not, that's what it was about. A co-op experience. I'm not about to tell somebody they're having "bad wrong fun."
As for that listing of games, those are terrible examples. If you want to see the kind of communities you can expect in these types of games you're going to need to list the ones that are actually relevant in this day and age with the exception of Runescape, but even it has a very DEFINED and strict set of rules for the wilderness not to mention a designated area for it.
Darkfall, Archeage, Mortal Online, Fallen Earth - These are more appropriate examples. Especially if it's going to be open pvp in most zones in the game like it states on their website. If those communities are anything to go by... Good luck.
Nice to see this forum getting busier. I do try to drop by regularly and read the threads. I'd be happy to answer any questions anyone may have about Pathfinder Online!
What was the reasoning behind turning PO into a pvp game as opposed to more closely resembling the tabletop game?
Your completely right! The way he is playing the game is wrong! That's not the way it's meant to be played, him finding enjoyment from PVP instead of working together is just heresy, that's not the spirit of the game!
"it's going to happen, muh gankfest"
There are also plenty of games with harsh death penalties and open world PVP with few limitations that are not complete "gankfests" (Tibia, Runescape, Wurm, Salem spring to mind)
Who is actually the ignorant one here?
You by the looks of it. I didn't say he was playing the game wrong, but for anybody who's played dungeons and dragons or pathfinder I'm pretty comfortable in saying that PvP isn't the intent of the game. It can happen, sure, but it's not the main focus of the game. At the heart of those tabletop games it's about sitting around a table and running a dungeon with friends. Originating from a war game or not, that's what it was about. A co-op experience. I'm not about to tell somebody they're having "bad wrong fun."
Maybe I play it wrong, but I remember sitting with a few friends to play my TT RPGs. We formed the "party" of adventurers. We encountered plenty of bad NPCs. There were bandits and other evil characters we fought. In an MMO there is no DM to control those NPCs... instead they are run by living/thinking players. The alternative is just a return to bland PvE against super-stat mobs who have more HP than a demi-god simply to make it a "challenge"
So in simple terms just consider the evil PvPers playing the role formerly taken by the DM controlling those Evil NPCs.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
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"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Originally posted by Thebeasttt What was the reasoning behind turning PO into a pvp game as opposed to more closely resembling the tabletop game?
Great question!
My analysis of the MMO market in 2010 was that AAA Theme Parks were dead as a business opportunity. The costs to make them had spiraled so far out of control that it had become impossible to write a rational business plan that would induce an investor to fund one. I looked at all the games then in production and figured out roughly how long it would take before they were released, and realized that after that point the market was going to have to be radically restructured. The only obvious place to go was Sandbox.
(For reference, the last generation of AAA Theme Park games, WildStar and Elder Scrolls Online, cost more than $100 million to make, took roughly 7 years to build, had teams of more than 1,000 people, and did not recoup those investments. That's not surprising, since the price of AAA Theme Park games has been escalating rapidly, even if you discount outliers like Star Wars: The Old Republic which had a budget north of $200 million. CCP had to walk away from the World of Darkness after more than 7 years of work and something like $75 million in sunk costs. About the only company that seems able to operate in this space is Cryptic, who built Neverwinter on a whole different cost model and schedule. Even Guildwars 2 would, I think, have a very hard time getting greenlit for development in today's environment, and it has (almost uniquely within it's cohort) probably earned back its up-front costs.)
So my belief was that in 2014, there would be no major AAA Theme Park game left in pre-release development, and that the only MMOs that could be funded would be funded in the $5-10 million budget range, and they would all have to be Sandbox games because those are the kinds of MMOs you can make with budgets that small.
80% of the cost of making an MMO is staff salaries. The cost to make a client/server application, all the necessary tools, and code game mechanics is relatively fixed. There is a variable depending on how much you want to spend on graphic technology and AI, and how robust you want your analytics, fraud detection and anti-cheat tools to be. There's another (small) variable for how much you want to spend on world-building, storytelling, NPC development, and scripting dialog. Most of the rest of the cost of making an MMO is "art" - the process of making an in-game visual asset, animating it, rendering it with various effects, etc. The reason Sandbox games are so much cheaper than Theme Park games is that they have a lot less art. The "Theme Park" part of Theme Park games are the dungeons, raids, public quests, and the variety of landscapes and environments they take place in.
Sandbox games work because the primary content in the game is other players. In the Sandbox, each player is constantly generating content for all the others. Some of that content is economic, some is political, some is social, and some is military.
A 100% pure sandbox would essentially be Rust. A game where there is virtually no interaction with anything in the environment but harvesting resources, and all other content is derived from players interacting with other players.
Pathfinder Online is not therefore that pure. We have a PvE portion of the game; a "Theme Park lite", which is the "adventuring" part of the game where you slay monsters. We will always be that hybrid of a Sandbox and a Theme Park and we'll iterate on the PvE features forever, but they're a subsegment of all the things you can do in the game, and our PvE content was built to help drive the rest of the emergent behavior of the players rather than be strictly an end-goal itself. In this, we are a mirror to what CCP has done with EVE Online.
The beating heart of Pathfinder Online is PvP. That does not mean the center of the game is pointless ganking. PvP takes many forms and has a lot of context. PvP includes the struggle for territory, the struggle for resources, and the struggle for the social graph. One portion of that system is characters fighting other characters but that portion has the same relationship to the game of Pathfinder Online that tackling has to football. The point of football is not to tackle, and the point of Pathfinder Online is not to kill other characters.
Pathfinder Online is a superset of what you can do on Pathfinder Tabletop. On the tabletop, the default assumption is that the characters are heroic adventurers. In the MMO, there is no default assumption about what the characters are. They could be adventurers. Or they could be crafters, bandits, teamsters, spies, soldiers, diplomats, traders, scouts, etc. Pathfinder Online is the tabletop game "zoomed out", so that player characters fill the roles usually taken by NPCs in tabletop adventure games.
The "monsters" in Pathfinder Online are other players. They are pursuing their own agendas and react strongly when those agendas overlap with other players. In a traditional tabletop game, the GM plays the roles of all the "monsters", but in Pathfinder Online, the "GM" (the MMO AI) is just playing the role of the PvE encounter monsters. Human beings provide the real excitement and challenge. Our "monsters" don't have AI. They have RHI - Real Human Intelligence. That makes them incomparably more interesting.
We have made a total commitment to our community to wage war on the idea that PvP implies a toxic environment filled with pointless murdering. And so far, we're winning that war. We've built game systems that make pointless murdering a suboptimal choice. And we've helped to nurture a community where pointless murdering is not viewed as an acceptable way to play the game. People who do it find themselves facing a very stiff headwind in the community.
So from my perspective, the MMO game is a game that contains the tabletop game, but surrounds it with vastly more potential gameplay that it can be hard to see where the tabletop portion ends and the MMO portion begins.
Thank you Ryan Dancey for your amazingly quick reply to my request through customer support regarding a trial key. I have logged in for a few minutes and I love it so far.
I'm interested in backing this since their support section is very good & the posts by the CEO do give me confidence that their priority is a fun game. I noticed that they only offer payments through credit cards right now and as I lack one (since I use paypal for 10+ years now), I will have to wait before I can order a supporter pack.
Comments
I always enjoyed the character flexibility of Pathfinder tabletop compared to that of ADnD 2. Although newer DnD rulesets aim to close this gap. I am very happy to see this reality making its way to your online iteration.
When I saw your kickstarter campaign I honestly did not feel that this game would fit my personal game play requirements. However after reading some of your answers, including the fact that you are even participating in an open discussion here, I am back on board.
I especially like your comparisons to Eve with a high fantasy setting. Eve is one of the few truly open sandbox games I have enjoyed.
I look forward to following your games development.
Thanks for visiting and your direct replies.
Del Cabon
A US Army ('Just Cause') Vet and MMORPG Native formerly of Trinsic, Norath and Dereth. Currently playing LOTRO.
There are many people who would support sub based games. Too many people are skin flints and don't want to shell out money for an inexpensive entertainment choice.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
There is a program in place to get players to try the game. Much like in EVE Online there is a trial offer for a "Buddy Key", a 15-day free trial that you can get from any one of a number of forum posters. You can email me at Fanndis.Goldbraid@gmail.com , or any one of the many players that are currently in game. Some of the players feel it is too early to offer a free trial at this time, as there are some rough spots in several areas. But many of us like the idea of getting in early, getting to influence the direction of the game in some ways (through a system call "Crowdforging") and getting to start our characters and settlements at the earliest possible time.
Also keep an eye out for promotional discounts. The basic buy in is currently $50 for the game download and one month of game time. One promotion recently ended that gave a $10 discount off that $50 price. Goblinworks has said there will be many more, so just keep on the look out.
Fanndis Goldbraid
We have a free trial program! If you haven't been offered a key elsewhere, email customer.support@goblinworks.com and I will get you one.
Mr Dancy, I used an Iphone. I knew people who used Iphones. I Phone was a friend of mine. Mr Dancey, you're no Iphone
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
In reality how large is the pool of people "Crowdforging"? When I read your forums I see maybe dozens of people doing this "Crowdforging".
Taking your advice I looked at your forums. In particular the one dedicated to "Crowdforging". Going back to the inception of the forum in August 2014 there are EXACTLY 2 threads that have 100 or more posts. and most of those posts are just a few PvP people and a few PvE people arguing about PvP. Most topics have single digit responses. That doesn't strike me as "crowdforging". Its the same dozen guys posting 80% of the messages...
Maybe that was your vision from the beginning but I honestly thought there would be thousands of people participating. My suggestion is that when you have a few dozen hardcore fans giving you 95% of your "Crowdforging" and you "change course based on what they're telling" you, you should re-evaluate the plan. The hardcore fans will lead you down a really dark tunnel to a game that nobody wants to play.
The hook you are using to get people to sub during this Early Enrollment is that their characters earn XP based on sub-time. You combine that with your No Wipe promise so people willing to pay you hundreds of dollars will have a huge edge when you get to actual release (Open Enrollment). There will NEVER, EVER be a way for new characters to catch up to those people who paid hundreds of dollars to be in Early Enrollment. Even if there were some theoretical way that after a year the new players would be close to the old ones, they will never make it. This is a game based around PvP and territory control. Giving people willing to pay hundreds of dollars such a huge edge in a PvP game is IMHO crazy. Hey, it's your company, but I did spend something like $250 on it so consider this my version of Crowdforging:
Stop this Early Enrollment stuff. Call it what it is, a limited early beta. Stop charging a sub for it. Use the time for actual testing and developing. Work on getting actual functional systems in game for key components like:
Combat (Not having every ranged attack self stun you would be a good start but so much more needs to happen...)
Territory Control (instead of building holdings, selected guilds were given theirs fully built also there is no mechanism for attacking these holdings instead there is a placeholder of tower sin the wilderness that you are supposed to care about but few do) Actually, no core systems should be placeholders if you are charging a sub.
UI (Hey maybe something as basic as being able to scroll text? I mean, if a guild has more than a few members you cant even scroll to see past the first few?)
Flagging (Game is built around PvP... currently you cannot heal red flagged characters.. PvP encounters become a game of trying to trick the other guy to turn red first...)
Then once the game is in an actual releasable state with combat that is fun, a somewhat modern UI and non-placeholder core systems such as Territory Control, then start 'Open Enrollment" and charge a sub. I get your point about needing money, but that comes down to a business plan. Find another source. I can absolutely GUARANTEE that you are not going to generate any significant revenue from subs once the pre-paid time runs out in a month or two. All you are going to do is turn off a significant amount of your potential core base. Maybe I'm wrong, but I really don't think so. You don't have a bad game, but you are trying to sell a blatantly incomplete product by wordsmithing and calling things Early Enrollment instead of Alpha/Beta. Your current incarnation is simply a paid Alpha/Beta with the promise not to wipe so that supporters get an edge at "release". The reason I state that it is an Alpha/Beta is because it is utterly lacking in core features. Placeholders are exactly what you find in an Alpha/Beta. If you were just polishing features or balancing systems that would be different.
OK. That's my $250 worth (and 4 accounts) of feedback. Take it however you want. I have logged in a total of once on one account in the last 30 days. Once the 4 months of pre-paid time runs out that will be it. $250 is as much support as I am willing to give and once I stop subscribing, due to the way XP is earned and the fact that this is a PvP based game... I will not reactivate.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Are you going to upgrade the engine to Unity 5? Many projects have already done so with big benefits, both in terms of graphics and performance.
Executive Editor (Games) http://www.wccftech.com
Lol.......they need to put water into the rivers, of the River Kingdoms, first!
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
I've got a question:
Who's idea was it to take the Pathfinder brand and create a game so far away from the source material that it makes no sense? Instead of creating a living fantasy world, filled with dungeons and adventure you've created what amounts to another random gank-fest survival game. We've got plenty of those out on the market. Who made this choice? Why? Even with the PvE elements and dungeons in the game I can't remember the last time I sat around a table of people playing Pathfinder and thought to myself... "Hey, it'd be really cool if I could murder my teammates and take their loot all for my own." The entire idea behind this game goes against everything that tabletop games stand for. Co-operation, teamwork, adventuring with friends, etc, etc.
I'm kind of ashamed that this is going to be the first Pathfinder PC game to make it to the market. I think with a brand as strong as Pathfinder with a world as lore filled/rich with information we could have got something far more substantial and thought-provoking.
On your first point, PFO is anything but a gankfest. There is very limited PVP opportunities, unless you want to arrange them, and that is not PVP, that is training.
As for your second point, the D&D group I played in for almost 12 years, and no rules against direct PVP or indirect subterfuge, larceny or even assassination. We typically played Chaotic characters, sometimes Neutrals but with not so savory intentions.
Although I never played Pathfinder TT, from what I understand, it is not even an option or it is strongly discouraged to play evil characters. PnP has its Care Bears as well I guess.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
I believe a major investor/backer is Lisa Stevens - Pathfinder CEO (not sure of her exact title).
-I will give my feedback for whatever its worth.
I am a very old school D&D player (tabletop) who reluctantly left 2nd edition to jump into Pathfinder (skipping 3rd edition entirely save for browsing the books) and I am in love with the system. Run a monthly game at my home with some of my original group from high school and we've all decided that pathfinder is probably among the better RPG systems we've ever played.
I was ecstatic when I heard of this game and very hopeful that we would finally see a more open world 'sandbox-y' fantasy game with some real depth and complexity ala Eve Online but with actual toons and not spaceships. On paper, this is the game ive been waiting for.
Last week someone here was kind enough to give me a friends key. I was certain you would have a purchase and another subscriber (I prefer sub games and avoid F2P) once I was able to test run the game. My first couple hours I was very much liking the amount of depth I was seeing but the UI and some of the systems just didnt click with me - Now, the systems not 'clicking' with me is a good thing-It usually means there is lots of complexity once I have the patience to learn rather than the simplistic way classes are usually presented in most MMOs ... But...
It was not intuitive at all. It felt clunky and cumbersome (the UI and the ...game) and I really ... really dont think I like how the classless system works over taking a more standard approach with the Pathfinder books and supplements as gospel... Maybe its just me- But It didnt grab me. And it should have... I hate spaceship games and Eve still managed to grab me. I LOVE fantasy and pathfinder and this MMO should have really been 'the one'. I've been wanting a sub game to play again since forever and its so unfortunate that this one felt very unfinished and seems like something I am not going to enjoy.
Now..I know this is early access and this is why I generally never even consider paying for early access or Alpha games. Hopefully things will be different down the road. But the system of leveling (like eve) and the classless characters is something I don't think appeals tome and will not change. The FFA PVP is something I avoid but would deal with IF it could be kept from being an arena as opposed to a sandbox.
I wish you guys luck. You have a stellar IP on your hands.
Anyone who uses 'care bear' as a descriptor is simply ignorant. Beyond that though, that's great that you and your group decided to play a bunch of chaotic murder hobos who'd have no problem killing a party member on a whim. Don't act like that's in the spirit of the game though, because it's not. I've been playing tabletop games and DMing for a lot longer than I've played PC games and I'm no stranger to pvp, often times when it happens I encourage it because it's a pivotal moment or something has gone terribly wrong in the party dynamic. Fact of the matter is, when playing a tabletop rpg it shines when the group is working together and far less so when PvP happens. Especially when you're playing in what many would consider a 'normal' game, such as society play or other structured campaign systems like that.
If there's open PvP, it's going to happen and you're going to have toxic players. It doesn't matter what they do to try to stop it unless it's in very limited areas. Which going by the information on their website, isn't the case. It will eventually devolve into a gank fest. If it has garners enough attention to pull enough people in for it become something more than it already is. My point being: For being one of the first games out of the gate and using the Pathfinder brand, this is truly a shame. Maybe one day they'll find enough success or a compentent developer who can create the next Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale or even Planescape Torment. Another generic survival/crafting game isn't needed.
Your completely right! The way he is playing the game is wrong! That's not the way it's meant to be played, him finding enjoyment from PVP instead of working together is just heresy, that's not the spirit of the game!
"it's going to happen, muh gankfest"
There are also plenty of games with harsh death penalties and open world PVP with few limitations that are not complete "gankfests" (Tibia, Runescape, Wurm, Salem spring to mind)
Who is actually the ignorant one here?
Waiting for:
The Repopulation
Albion Online
You by the looks of it. I didn't say he was playing the game wrong, but for anybody who's played dungeons and dragons or pathfinder I'm pretty comfortable in saying that PvP isn't the intent of the game. It can happen, sure, but it's not the main focus of the game. At the heart of those tabletop games it's about sitting around a table and running a dungeon with friends. Originating from a war game or not, that's what it was about. A co-op experience. I'm not about to tell somebody they're having "bad wrong fun."
As for that listing of games, those are terrible examples. If you want to see the kind of communities you can expect in these types of games you're going to need to list the ones that are actually relevant in this day and age with the exception of Runescape, but even it has a very DEFINED and strict set of rules for the wilderness not to mention a designated area for it.
Darkfall, Archeage, Mortal Online, Fallen Earth - These are more appropriate examples. Especially if it's going to be open pvp in most zones in the game like it states on their website. If those communities are anything to go by... Good luck.
What was the reasoning behind turning PO into a pvp game as opposed to more closely resembling the tabletop game?
Maybe I play it wrong, but I remember sitting with a few friends to play my TT RPGs. We formed the "party" of adventurers. We encountered plenty of bad NPCs. There were bandits and other evil characters we fought. In an MMO there is no DM to control those NPCs... instead they are run by living/thinking players. The alternative is just a return to bland PvE against super-stat mobs who have more HP than a demi-god simply to make it a "challenge"
So in simple terms just consider the evil PvPers playing the role formerly taken by the DM controlling those Evil NPCs.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Could I get a trial key? I have been playing the pen and paper game since it first came out, and I'm excited to give this game a try.
Edit: I got a key, thanks all
Great question!
My analysis of the MMO market in 2010 was that AAA Theme Parks were dead as a business opportunity. The costs to make them had spiraled so far out of control that it had become impossible to write a rational business plan that would induce an investor to fund one. I looked at all the games then in production and figured out roughly how long it would take before they were released, and realized that after that point the market was going to have to be radically restructured. The only obvious place to go was Sandbox.
(For reference, the last generation of AAA Theme Park games, WildStar and Elder Scrolls Online, cost more than $100 million to make, took roughly 7 years to build, had teams of more than 1,000 people, and did not recoup those investments. That's not surprising, since the price of AAA Theme Park games has been escalating rapidly, even if you discount outliers like Star Wars: The Old Republic which had a budget north of $200 million. CCP had to walk away from the World of Darkness after more than 7 years of work and something like $75 million in sunk costs. About the only company that seems able to operate in this space is Cryptic, who built Neverwinter on a whole different cost model and schedule. Even Guildwars 2 would, I think, have a very hard time getting greenlit for development in today's environment, and it has (almost uniquely within it's cohort) probably earned back its up-front costs.)
So my belief was that in 2014, there would be no major AAA Theme Park game left in pre-release development, and that the only MMOs that could be funded would be funded in the $5-10 million budget range, and they would all have to be Sandbox games because those are the kinds of MMOs you can make with budgets that small.
80% of the cost of making an MMO is staff salaries. The cost to make a client/server application, all the necessary tools, and code game mechanics is relatively fixed. There is a variable depending on how much you want to spend on graphic technology and AI, and how robust you want your analytics, fraud detection and anti-cheat tools to be. There's another (small) variable for how much you want to spend on world-building, storytelling, NPC development, and scripting dialog. Most of the rest of the cost of making an MMO is "art" - the process of making an in-game visual asset, animating it, rendering it with various effects, etc. The reason Sandbox games are so much cheaper than Theme Park games is that they have a lot less art. The "Theme Park" part of Theme Park games are the dungeons, raids, public quests, and the variety of landscapes and environments they take place in.
Sandbox games work because the primary content in the game is other players. In the Sandbox, each player is constantly generating content for all the others. Some of that content is economic, some is political, some is social, and some is military.
A 100% pure sandbox would essentially be Rust. A game where there is virtually no interaction with anything in the environment but harvesting resources, and all other content is derived from players interacting with other players.
Pathfinder Online is not therefore that pure. We have a PvE portion of the game; a "Theme Park lite", which is the "adventuring" part of the game where you slay monsters. We will always be that hybrid of a Sandbox and a Theme Park and we'll iterate on the PvE features forever, but they're a subsegment of all the things you can do in the game, and our PvE content was built to help drive the rest of the emergent behavior of the players rather than be strictly an end-goal itself. In this, we are a mirror to what CCP has done with EVE Online.
The beating heart of Pathfinder Online is PvP. That does not mean the center of the game is pointless ganking. PvP takes many forms and has a lot of context. PvP includes the struggle for territory, the struggle for resources, and the struggle for the social graph. One portion of that system is characters fighting other characters but that portion has the same relationship to the game of Pathfinder Online that tackling has to football. The point of football is not to tackle, and the point of Pathfinder Online is not to kill other characters.
Pathfinder Online is a superset of what you can do on Pathfinder Tabletop. On the tabletop, the default assumption is that the characters are heroic adventurers. In the MMO, there is no default assumption about what the characters are. They could be adventurers. Or they could be crafters, bandits, teamsters, spies, soldiers, diplomats, traders, scouts, etc. Pathfinder Online is the tabletop game "zoomed out", so that player characters fill the roles usually taken by NPCs in tabletop adventure games.
The "monsters" in Pathfinder Online are other players. They are pursuing their own agendas and react strongly when those agendas overlap with other players. In a traditional tabletop game, the GM plays the roles of all the "monsters", but in Pathfinder Online, the "GM" (the MMO AI) is just playing the role of the PvE encounter monsters. Human beings provide the real excitement and challenge. Our "monsters" don't have AI. They have RHI - Real Human Intelligence. That makes them incomparably more interesting.
We have made a total commitment to our community to wage war on the idea that PvP implies a toxic environment filled with pointless murdering. And so far, we're winning that war. We've built game systems that make pointless murdering a suboptimal choice. And we've helped to nurture a community where pointless murdering is not viewed as an acceptable way to play the game. People who do it find themselves facing a very stiff headwind in the community.
So from my perspective, the MMO game is a game that contains the tabletop game, but surrounds it with vastly more potential gameplay that it can be hard to see where the tabletop portion ends and the MMO portion begins.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Thank you Ryan Dancey for your amazingly quick reply to my request through customer support regarding a trial key. I have logged in for a few minutes and I love it so far.
I'm interested in backing this since their support section is very good & the posts by the CEO do give me confidence that their priority is a fun game. I noticed that they only offer payments through credit cards right now and as I lack one (since I use paypal for 10+ years now), I will have to wait before I can order a supporter pack.
I look forward to seeing the game progress.