Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Yes that is it. People talk to me all the time, sometimes I start sometimes they start. People in Pugs, guilds, on vent... as he said the list goes on and on.
It's you.
You may have discounted the varying personality quirks of people in social interaction. For one a game with practically no down-time is not conducive of casual conversation. Also slam someone into a situation that is continuous combat and rush to the end formula you might as well be talking to a wall when you do try to interact.
I can easily chatter away at a group even in these circumstances but when there is no need for efficiency, nothing to fill the void, because the game itself is trying to ensure there is no void -- you end up with a vacuous encounter with 3-6 other individuals you will likely never speak to again.
That is something that became immediately apparent to me about WoWs mechanics, unless you join a guild; even then only a raiding guild. What if I don't care to raid much. Sucks to be me I guess.
Edit: To clarify, I want a mix of social interaction, challenge, and downtime. To get all three pretty much required raiding. I have never found raid centered play fun. Too many people, gameplay is too one dimensional.
That interaction is way overrated by vets. They view it as something special, but it's not. It was only a side-effect of dungeon design.
After several hundred runs of the same dungeons/raids, the novelty wears off, and that interaction isn't as special to people anymore, unless you're some kind of jaded vet who clamors for socialization to fill that "void" of loneliness. I'm not specifically targeting you, but in general.
I think that's where the WoW kiddies show how little they know of how games were back then. In games like WoW you're funneled to a very shallow amount of content, because the developers obsolete content like clockwork. In games like EQ people were stll grouping in Classic EQ zones in Luclin and PoP. People were still doing Luclin Zones in Omens of War, etc.
The amount of content available to level in was massive, and it only got larger as the game went on. The incentive to mix it up only got greater when they added mechanics like Hot Zones, etc. and of course some quests sent you back to older zones, among other things.
There was not really any instance where players were doing the same dungeons and raids hundreds of times, and even if they were running the same content again, they were running a much larger variety of content than is generally available (worth doing) in most current games.
The issue with games like WoW, PvE-wise, is that the content worth doing is extremely shallow. Raids. The current raid tier ... that's about it. Weeks after the expansion launches the Heroics are worthless. That doesn't leave much, since the game is intentionally designed to have as little useful open world content as possible... You're doing largely the same Daily Quests, running the same Heroics, Running the Same Dungeons. Everything becomes monotonous very quickly because the content has such a low shelf life. Once an expansion launches, they instantly obsolete all prior expansion content.
Even now, there is reason to run previous expansion content in EQ (the gear, augments, etc. are still useful). WoW gear resets are like clockwork.
One of the good things about those older games was the long content shelf life, which made it almost impossible to get bored because you were running "the same dungeon hundreds of times" because progression was at a different pace back then and the games itemized in a saner manner than WoW and games in its likeness does/do.
If your gear is at least LFR quality there is no content in WoW worth doing except raids. Literally, nothing except one challenge mode dungeon. But aside from that, no literally PvE content is worth running except Raids - and ONLY the current raid tier unless you're raiding Mythic - definitely not anything from the prior expansion.
Part of the key to the social aspect in MMORPGs seems to be keeping everyone together throughout the game.
The biggest key -- really the only one that matters -- is having a playerbase that gives a rat's arse about the social aspect of an MMO.
Blizzard's biggest sin, the one which jaded vets will never forgive WoW for, was making it so you could be social or not, as was your wont at any given time, in any given situation. In doing so it brought the plebes into the market, people who neither needed nor wanted an MMO to be their social life.
These arguments always come down to the social aspect, the article mentioned in the OP rants and raves at length about it. The problem is that WoW didn't destroy the social aspect, it simply allowed for people who neither needed nor wanted an MMO as a social outlet to play in peace without having to kowtow to various geek conventions nor kiss the appropriate butts.
The assumption that MMOs are or should be about the social aspect simply doesn't hold water in the face of WoW's wild success, and for that sin bitter old vets will never forgive it.
The issue, both that is argued every day on this forum and in this thread/article, is that the MMORPG industry has moved away from being massively multiplayer into another model that promotes single player gameplay first and foremost.
MMOs are no longer about how to bring players together to play games whether it be cooperatively or competitively as much as it is about just playing games online independently while other players do the exact same thing, yet separately.
Much of the hate for the "bitter old vets" is that they miss mmorpgs that were based on the concepts of players working together above all else, and all the gameplay and elements that go with that which facilitate immersion and a more believable virtual world.
Which is simply untrue. There is more competition, and cooperation, in modern MMO's than ever before. There are leaderboards, tournaments (sponsored & community), cross-gaming guilds, public voice chat servers, community events, guild events, world boss cooperation, etc.. The list goes on.
Bitter vets are really complaining about questing and leveling, and to some degree dungeons (depends on the MMO).
There are many other aspects to an MMO besides those, and modern MMO's shifted the cooperation and competition to where it really matters.
I simply don't believe that you really think what you're saying is true. That or you weren't around back when mmorpgs were actually massively multiplayer and it was assumed and designed so that people would actually play together.
I play an mmo today, and except for a few random instances (which are literally random now, you push a button and it throws you in one), you never talk or interact with other players at all. Once you get to max level, the vast majority of what you can accomplish is lobby game automated now. Push a button, join a raid. Push a button, join a group. Push a button, join a battleground. Any time, any where. No communication is even necessary. Not before, not during, and not after.
So please, don't insult everyone's intelligence.
I'm not insulting anyone's intelligence.
You just can't get past the fact that people don't want to waste time talking about what they had for lunch, or why their kids are crying, or that they took a bath... sorry, but i'm glad i missed out on that socialization.
One can only socialize so much about a game before it becomes mundane and monotonous. It's actually a lot like this thread. People like you clamoring for the old days, ad nauseam.
Some people just want to enjoy the game or movie, without the person next to them "socializing" throughout the encounter/experience.
I've had countless groups where nobody spoke a word before, or after, a group was formed... and this was before dungeon finder tools were the norm.
You're trying to the blame tools, which is ridiculous in itself, and quite frankly, that's insulting people's intelligence.
You relegate communication in a fantasy mmorpg to talking about real life food, crying kids and taking a bath? This is why I can't take what you are saying seriously.
In my years of playing older mmos, I don't recall that being the subject matter we discussed. Usually it was about strategy, class tips, what we were looking to accomplish, items we were hunting for or quests or other things we were working on in the game. Perhaps other info about things someone has accomplished and some tips on how to do the same. Maybe stories about other scenarios in this dungeon or with another player in our group. There was tons of stuff to talk about, and real life very seldom even entered the conversation, especially in the early days of mmo when it was considered rude constantly speaking out of character about the mundane shit most people were trying to get away from during their play session.
It happens a lot and still happens. I was soloing in EQ2 just last week, chatting in /general when some guy starts messaging me about how bad his day was, how drunk he was and how the cops busted him twice today (today being that day) for some reason.
EQ had a command for speaking out of character... /ooc
Games back then encouraged Role Playing.
If you actually read the link in the OP, like most people in this thread DIDN'T, one of the things he laments is not only the lack of social interaction but the near extinction of Role Playing in these Role Playing Games.
So yea, it doesn't come as a surprise that someone in EQ2 wanted to chat about their RL issues in game. However, I played that game fairly seriously in a serious raid guild for a couple of years and well... It was different. I quit when it went F2P, because that has a tendency to bring in the kinds of players you talk about. The EQ2 community prided itself on being mature and respectful. It was one of the last games with a community that resembled that of those earlier MMORPGs (as a lot of the players there were from those older games, even met a few from Guilds in EQ there... who remembered my character name and struck up a conversation about the "Good Ole Days" with me).
A lot of that is gone, since even a lot of those players quit after the F2P conversion (post Destiny of Velious).
Downtime is not bad. If the game facilitates it by compensating via the XP Rates it should not be an issue. But an MMORPG that is designed in a way that punishes socialization just doesn't work for me, and many other people (evidenced by the amount of nomadic MMORPG gamers out there).
Obsolescence is modus operandum in WoW. Every single expansion.
Admittedly though the only time I got stuck in the repetitive dungeon run was in EQ LDoN. Something adopted later on by WoW when associative 'DKP' or 'Status' driven, and player controlled rewards, became a detrimental issue for the player base at large. Understandably so, it was replaced with personally earned currency and alternative forms for acquisition. Yep that happened years earlier in LDoN and DoN and continued on. Wasn't a WoW thing at all.
In and of itself this is not a bad thing. It only becomes a problem when you sideline older content for the sake of expansion buys. The Kunark expansion was probably the best model I can think of that managed to incorporate the old and new quite well. But WoW, instead of legitimately revitalizing this content for players, reused it to eventually tack on a stint for appeasing completionists.
That was already well established by EQ2 and the Alternative Advancement and Heritage system. Nothing was really unique about WoW except it's ability to market accessibility and a falsely perceived inclusion. And again I digress.
World of Warcraft is the best single thing to happen to the MMORPG genre.
It not only showed publishers and developers that this genre can be profitable but it made the genre mainstream and opened it up to vastly more players. I think it needs to be kept in mind that almost every developer is in this to make money, that's it. If their beloved title they work on stops bringing in the $ then it's thrown to the scrapheap.
Most MMORPG titles that exist today only exist because of wow, most mmorpg titles that exist today would of had small budgets and still probably look like everquest 2 if not for WoW.
If you don't like what the genre has become, maybe that's just too bad and you simply don't make up enough of a playerbase to target. Money > all.
World of Warcraft is the best single thing to happen to the MMORPG genre.
It not only showed publishers and developers that this genre can be profitable but it made the genre mainstream and opened it up to vastly more players. I think it needs to be kept in mind that almost every developer is in this to make money, that's it. If their beloved title they work on stops bringing in the $ then it's thrown to the scrapheap.
Most MMORPG titles that exist today only exist because of wow, most mmorpg titles that exist today would of had small budgets and still probably look like everquest 2 if not for WoW.
If you don't like what the genre has become, maybe that's just too bad and you simply don't make up enough of a playerbase to target. Money > all.
They arent MMORPG players, they want small coop games that are played by small amount of people and "everyone knows everyone" and is played by quite narrow demographic.
And money > all is only possible way to do things, because, as they experience it now, no money, no game
Part of the key to the social aspect in MMORPGs seems to be keeping everyone together throughout the game.
The biggest key -- really the only one that matters -- is having a playerbase that gives a rat's arse about the social aspect of an MMO.
Blizzard's biggest sin, the one which jaded vets will never forgive WoW for, was making it so you could be social or not, as was your wont at any given time, in any given situation. In doing so it brought the plebes into the market, people who neither needed nor wanted an MMO to be their social life.
These arguments always come down to the social aspect, the article mentioned in the OP rants and raves at length about it. The problem is that WoW didn't destroy the social aspect, it simply allowed for people who neither needed nor wanted an MMO as a social outlet to play in peace without having to kowtow to various geek conventions nor kiss the appropriate butts.
The assumption that MMOs are or should be about the social aspect simply doesn't hold water in the face of WoW's wild success, and for that sin bitter old vets will never forgive it.
^^ Exactly. So there's really nothing else to say.
Actually from launch in 2004 until Wrath of the Lich King in 2008 - forced grouping, group quests, very dangerous elite mobs on quests, long attunement and key quests... there were still a lot of the more traditional hardcore style social dependency in WoW.
LFG, the removal of non-dungeon group quests, farming Justice/Valor points for gear, and the age of "AoE everything" etc. all didn't happen until WotLK - 4 full years after WoW launched.
Why?
Well that's (apparently) what many of the 14+ million-some players at the time wanted.
They wanted less hardcore dependency on having to join guilds or beg in chat channels in order to do any of the group content.
They tried to bring back "hard" Heroics in Cataclysm, and the masses rejected them. LFR didn't come about until the end of Cataclysm too. Cata released in 2010 - 6 years after launch.
You know what "big" games also launched in that time frame?
CoH - 2004
EQ2 - 2004
Matrix Online - 2005
GW1 - 2005
LOTRO - 2007
WAR - 2008
AoC - 2008
Star Trek Online - 2010
Now how many of those are either closed down, in the process of closing down, or F2P?
Again it's you. Maybe the way you are approaching it.
Or maybe it's just the way he treats other people online. If his communication attempts in game match the tone he often uses in his posts here, no wonder nobody wants to socialize with him.
You still upset because I presented facts which disproved your fairytale argument?
Be honest with yourself. You are caustic and the way I respond to you is totally warranted. Even after I addressed and showed you how disrespectful you were being, you still come back playing the victim as if I mistreated you. Get real.
Regarding this subtopic, theres a very obvious reason why communication between players is no longer a thing in modern MMOs and Greyvee covered it just fine. Not only is the majority of content in MMOs solo content, but the combat is not conducive to conversation or cooperation outside of spamming abilities. There is simply no reason to ever stop, so doing so and talking is generally responded to with "GO GO GO". You no longer need to speak with people to cooperate or coordinate, a simply button on the UI does it for you. You no longer need to look for help to travel or to get buffs, get a revive, or even barter, the client automates everything or these scenarios are removed entirely.
People tend to call these modern games MMOs instead of MMORPGs because they've lost most of the RPG elements. Truth be told, they aren't even MMOs anymore. They are no longer massively multiplayer, they are just online games with the option of multiplayer when it suits you.
Again it's you. Maybe the way you are approaching it.
Or maybe it's just the way he treats other people online. If his communication attempts in game match the tone he often uses in his posts here, no wonder nobody wants to socialize with him.
You still upset because I presented facts which disproved your fairytale argument?
Be honest with yourself. You are caustic and the way I respond to you is totally warranted. Even after I addressed and showed you how disrespectful you were being, you still come back playing the victim as if I mistreated you. Get real.
Regarding this subtopic, theres a very obvious reason why communication between players is no longer a thing in modern MMOs and Greyvee covered it just fine. Not only is the majority of content in MMOs solo content, but the combat is not conducive to conversation or cooperation outside of spamming abilities. There is simply no reason to ever stop, so doing so and talking is generally responded to with "GO GO GO". You no longer need to speak with people to cooperate or coordinate, a simply button on the UI does it for you. You no longer need to look for help to travel or to get buffs, get a revive, or even barter, the client automates everything or these scenarios are removed entirely.
People tend to call these modern games MMOs instead of MMORPGs because they've lost most of the RPG elements. Truth be told, they aren't even MMOs anymore. They are no longer massively multiplayer, they are just online games with the option of multiplayer when it suits you.
People tend to call them MMO because its easier to pronounce rather than MMORPG
Honesly you are pretty wrong here. Not every new MMO is like that. Only way something to be auto is if YOU want it like that. When i play i do it my way. Communication between player is still a thing for those that look for it.
Awe, that mean old Blizzard turned the pile of garbage that was EQ1 into something that more than few fringe nerds want to play
The market has spoken
Funny, because EQ1 had 500k subs which, is more than just about any modern WoW clone has ever managed to sustain.
The market has spoken indeed, and across the board, the market has rejected WoW clones. Those that like it are already playing WoW. Flop after flop, forcing everyone to go FTP and fire developers and shut studios down have shown that the people don't want WoW clones.
EQ peaked at 500k, that's different to sustained. SWTOR has higher sustained sub numbers. But yeah the vast majority of MMOs are not worth the subs. Also EQ had very little competition back in the day. So there's that.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Again it's you. Maybe the way you are approaching it.
Or maybe it's just the way he treats other people online. If his communication attempts in game match the tone he often uses in his posts here, no wonder nobody wants to socialize with him.
You still upset because I presented facts which disproved your fairytale argument?
Be honest with yourself. You are caustic and the way I respond to you is totally warranted. Even after I addressed and showed you how disrespectful you were being, you still come back playing the victim as if I mistreated you. Get real.
Regarding this subtopic, theres a very obvious reason why communication between players is no longer a thing in modern MMOs and Greyvee covered it just fine. Not only is the majority of content in MMOs solo content, but the combat is not conducive to conversation or cooperation outside of spamming abilities. There is simply no reason to ever stop, so doing so and talking is generally responded to with "GO GO GO". You no longer need to speak with people to cooperate or coordinate, a simply button on the UI does it for you. You no longer need to look for help to travel or to get buffs, get a revive, or even barter, the client automates everything or these scenarios are removed entirely.
People tend to call these modern games MMOs instead of MMORPGs because they've lost most of the RPG elements. Truth be told, they aren't even MMOs anymore. They are no longer massively multiplayer, they are just online games with the option of multiplayer when it suits you.
People tend to call them MMO because its easier to pronounce rather than MMORPG
Honesly you are pretty wrong here. Not every new MMO is like that. Only way something to be auto is if YOU want it like that. When i play i do it my way. Communication between player is still a thing for those that look for it.
This guy is right. The only reason they are called MMOs is because it's easier to pronounce and shorter to type. MMORPG is a very difficult word to pronounce. MMO is much easier,
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
World of Warcraft brought the genre into the "mainstream". Whatever your personal opinion on what that means exactly should be put aside, because WoW's success was/is a good thing for the genre as it brought more interest into an incredibly niche genre. This success should have made it easier to create more diverse, well-crafted MMORPG experiences for players to enjoy. The amount of eyeballs that have been flowing around the genre for years since WoW's takeoff should have made it easy for developers and games studios to craft lasting game worlds and memorable experiences of all different shapes and sizes.
I say should have, because what has actually happened is developers have mostly fallen into the trap of trying to be too great and do too much. Instead of focusing their efforts on particular designs, styles, world types, or gameplay experiences, developers instead seem to have been struck with the idea that each new game to the genre needs to have just as much to offer as its competitors while also presenting a new gimmick or idea to add on top of that. This problem persists in many other areas of the Gaming Industry as well. Instead of focusing their efforts and trying to create experiences unique from World of Warcraft, or other successful games in the genre, developers just try to add little bits on top of what already exists.
It is just as other posters have pointed out in this thread. Each "big name" MMORPG that has come to rise and metaphorically fall during WoW's life cycle has had a few unique elements that could have done much to set them apart from the competition. They offered things that WoW did not, and mostly will never offer. The developers just never got around to fully investing themselves into these ideas (Rifts zone events, Warhammers RvR, SWTOR's Storytelling, AoC's open world PvP, Archeage's sandboxyness, etc.) by constantly feeling the need to shape their worlds in the familiar style of what WoW offers. In each game there were always huge parts of the game which were going to be a given, developed in a similar style just like anyone else and never to be as good as what WoW offered or to really offer a fresh take on the genre in any significant capacity. Each game needed to follow the checklist of things such as:
1. Quest driven leveling process
2. Dungeons and/or Raiding to gear up your character
3. Battleground style PvP
4. Talent Trees, Class Trainers, Mount Vendors all working just as they had many moons ago
5. Dailies, always the dailies.
6. Crafting, mostly consisting of gather X amount of mats to craft Y to gain levels. Only useful stuff was at max level
Even though the list could go longer, I feel the point is made. Each game was familiar, the same, easy to dive into and understand its working parts. Each game felt all a part of the same wavelength never wanting to stray to far from the "expected" and as a result as caused an entirely new form of payment model (F2P, cashshops) to dominate the market just so these games can survive and create revenue for themselves.
Is WoW or Blizzard to blame for the staleness in the MMORPG market? I would say not at all. What is to blame are the creative minds behind the genre failing to understand and adapt their designs to create quality products. Trying to do too much and be too broad will always spell doom for a game development team simply because resources are just too finite and time too limited. Focusing their efforts on unique styles and worlds, while possibly abandoning certain preconceptions of what "needs" to be in a MMO game, would do wonders in creating a feeling of diversity in the MMORPG market while giving players reasons to stick around in the game world by offering experiences they can't find in other titles.
Awe, that mean old Blizzard turned the pile of garbage that was EQ1 into something that more than few fringe nerds want to play
The market has spoken
Funny, because EQ1 had 500k subs which, is more than just about any modern WoW clone has ever managed to sustain.
The market has spoken indeed, and across the board, the market has rejected WoW clones. Those that like it are already playing WoW. Flop after flop, forcing everyone to go FTP and fire developers and shut studios down have shown that the people don't want WoW clones.
EQ peaked at 500k, that's different to sustained. SWTOR has higher sustained sub numbers. But yeah the vast majority of MMOs are not worth the subs. Also EQ had very little competition back in the day. So there's that.
Has that ever been confirmed by EA? Think I've only seen Superdata numbers.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Obsolescence is modus operandum in WoW. Every single expansion.
Admittedly though the only time I got stuck in the repetitive dungeon run was in EQ LDoN. Something adopted later on by WoW when associative 'DKP' or 'Status' driven, and player controlled rewards, became a detrimental issue for the player base at large. Understandably so, it was replaced with personally earned currency and alternative forms for acquisition. Yep that happened years earlier in LDoN and DoN and continued on. Wasn't a WoW thing at all.
In and of itself this is not a bad thing. It only becomes a problem when you sideline older content for the sake of expansion buys. The Kunark expansion was probably the best model I can think of that managed to incorporate the old and new quite well. But WoW, instead of legitimately revitalizing this content for players, reused it to eventually tack on a stint for appeasing completionists.
That was already well established by EQ2 and the Alternative Advancement and Heritage system. Nothing was really unique about WoW except it's ability to market accessibility and a falsely perceived inclusion. And again I digress.
I agree for the most part. But DoN and LDoN are two of like 16 expansions EQ has had (or is it 14? I cannot keep track). LDoN was worse than Luclin and PoP zones for XP. It was good for casuals, though, who wanted something dependably shorter that they could do and log off (it was sort of bad etiquette to join a grind group and then leave in 15 minutes without a replacement in EQ back then). DoDH also had instances, but they were far from trivial. Guild groups were... suggested :-P
As far as AAs, once you got a decent amount they sort or took care of themselves. You got the ones that were vital and everything else was icing on the cake. You grouped largely to play with friends - the cooperative play was the biggest draw of that game to me.
I remember in DoN expansion my Necro dinged 1,000 AAs. I was buying Resist AAs at that point. No different in any other expansion as time went on. You got the most needed ones ASAP and then the rest were icing on the cake. You grouped a lot because it was simply FUN to play with friends, and people were a bit more tight knit in that game, and got to know each other a bit better.
Which is why the story upthread (or was it another thread?) about someone talking about their RL is funny. It was not unheard of for people to talk about real life in EQ. There were /role tag to let people know that you were role playing. There was /ooc to speak out of character. The game had all the "mechanics" in place to facilitate all types of communication (without necessarily discouraging any type) and the pace of gameplay facilitated communication - especially when you consider almost all communication was text based back then - you had to TYPE your sentences and that's hard to do when you're mashing 20 buttons.
I think the trend towards more action combat MAY have something to do with the proliferation of voice chat in video games these days though. It's easier to mash buttons when you can just chat through an open mic, as opposed to having to text chat. However, I think most people would find role playing via voice chat a bit odd. I still find it works better on a console game, though, where the Voice Chatting is built into the console services and the controls are more friendly to those type of combat systems.
Part of the key to the social aspect in MMORPGs seems to be keeping everyone together throughout the game.
The biggest key -- really the only one that matters -- is having a playerbase that gives a rat's arse about the social aspect of an MMO.
Blizzard's biggest sin, the one which jaded vets will never forgive WoW for, was making it so you could be social or not, as was your wont at any given time, in any given situation. In doing so it brought the plebes into the market, people who neither needed nor wanted an MMO to be their social life.
These arguments always come down to the social aspect, the article mentioned in the OP rants and raves at length about it. The problem is that WoW didn't destroy the social aspect, it simply allowed for people who neither needed nor wanted an MMO as a social outlet to play in peace without having to kowtow to various geek conventions nor kiss the appropriate butts.
The assumption that MMOs are or should be about the social aspect simply doesn't hold water in the face of WoW's wild success, and for that sin bitter old vets will never forgive it.
The issue, both that is argued every day on this forum and in this thread/article, is that the MMORPG industry has moved away from being massively multiplayer into another model that promotes single player gameplay first and foremost.
MMOs are no longer about how to bring players together to play games whether it be cooperatively or competitively as much as it is about just playing games online independently while other players do the exact same thing, yet separately.
Much of the hate for the "bitter old vets" is that they miss mmorpgs that were based on the concepts of players working together above all else, and all the gameplay and elements that go with that which facilitate immersion and a more believable virtual world.
Which is simply untrue. There is more competition, and cooperation, in modern MMO's than ever before. There are leaderboards, tournaments (sponsored & community), cross-gaming guilds, public voice chat servers, community events, guild events, world boss cooperation, etc.. The list goes on.
Bitter vets are really complaining about questing and leveling, and to some degree dungeons (depends on the MMO).
There are many other aspects to an MMO besides those, and modern MMO's shifted the cooperation and competition to where it really matters.
I simply don't believe that you really think what you're saying is true. That or you weren't around back when mmorpgs were actually massively multiplayer and it was assumed and designed so that people would actually play together.
I play an mmo today, and except for a few random instances (which are literally random now, you push a button and it throws you in one), you never talk or interact with other players at all. Once you get to max level, the vast majority of what you can accomplish is lobby game automated now. Push a button, join a raid. Push a button, join a group. Push a button, join a battleground. Any time, any where. No communication is even necessary. Not before, not during, and not after.
So please, don't insult everyone's intelligence.
I'm not insulting anyone's intelligence.
You just can't get past the fact that people don't want to waste time talking about what they had for lunch, or why their kids are crying, or that they took a bath... sorry, but i'm glad i missed out on that socialization.
One can only socialize so much about a game before it becomes mundane and monotonous. It's actually a lot like this thread. People like you clamoring for the old days, ad nauseam.
Some people just want to enjoy the game or movie, without the person next to them "socializing" throughout the encounter/experience.
I've had countless groups where nobody spoke a word before, or after, a group was formed... and this was before dungeon finder tools were the norm.
You're trying to the blame tools, which is ridiculous in itself, and quite frankly, that's insulting people's intelligence.
You relegate communication in a fantasy mmorpg to talking about real life food, crying kids and taking a bath? This is why I can't take what you are saying seriously.
In my years of playing older mmos, I don't recall that being the subject matter we discussed. Usually it was about strategy, class tips, what we were looking to accomplish, items we were hunting for or quests or other things we were working on in the game. Perhaps other info about things someone has accomplished and some tips on how to do the same. Maybe stories about other scenarios in this dungeon or with another player in our group. There was tons of stuff to talk about, and real life very seldom even entered the conversation, especially in the early days of mmo when it was considered rude constantly speaking out of character about the mundane shit most people were trying to get away from during their play session.
Hence, my next paragraph.
"One can only socialize so much about a game before it becomes mundane and monotonous."
I'm all for discussing strategy, but it becomes irrelevant when you're with a competent group that already knows what to do. There really isn't much to talk about after that.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Yes that is it. People talk to me all the time, sometimes I start sometimes they start. People in Pugs, guilds, on vent... as he said the list goes on and on.
It's you.
You may have discounted the varying personality quirks of people in social interaction. For one a game with practically no down-time is not conducive of casual conversation. Also slam someone into a situation that is continuous combat and rush to the end formula you might as well be talking to a wall when you do try to interact.
I can easily chatter away at a group even in these circumstances but when there is no need for efficiency, nothing to fill the void, because the game itself is trying to ensure there is no void -- you end up with a vacuous encounter with 3-6 other individuals you will likely never speak to again.
That is something that became immediately apparent to me about WoWs mechanics, unless you join a guild; even then only a raiding guild. What if I don't care to raid much. Sucks to be me I guess.
Edit: To clarify, I want a mix of social interaction, challenge, and downtime. To get all three pretty much required raiding. I have never found raid centered play fun. Too many people, gameplay is too one dimensional.
That interaction is way overrated by vets. They view it as something special, but it's not. It was only a side-effect of dungeon design.
After several hundred runs of the same dungeons/raids, the novelty wears off, and that interaction isn't as special to people anymore, unless you're some kind of jaded vet who clamors for socialization to fill that "void" of loneliness. I'm not specifically targeting you, but in general.
I think that's where the WoW kiddies show how little they know of how games were back then. In games like WoW you're funneled to a very shallow amount of content, because the developers obsolete content like clockwork. In games like EQ people were stll grouping in Classic EQ zones in Luclin and PoP. People were still doing Luclin Zones in Omens of War, etc.
The amount of content available to level in was massive, and it only got larger as the game went on. The incentive to mix it up only got greater when they added mechanics like Hot Zones, etc. and of course some quests sent you back to older zones, among other things.
There was not really any instance where players were doing the same dungeons and raids hundreds of times, and even if they were running the same content again, they were running a much larger variety of content than is generally available (worth doing) in most current games.
The issue with games like WoW, PvE-wise, is that the content worth doing is extremely shallow. Raids. The current raid tier ... that's about it. Weeks after the expansion launches the Heroics are worthless. That doesn't leave much, since the game is intentionally designed to have as little useful open world content as possible... You're doing largely the same Daily Quests, running the same Heroics, Running the Same Dungeons. Everything becomes monotonous very quickly because the content has such a low shelf life. Once an expansion launches, they instantly obsolete all prior expansion content.
Even now, there is reason to run previous expansion content in EQ (the gear, augments, etc. are still useful). WoW gear resets are like clockwork.
One of the good things about those older games was the long content shelf life, which made it almost impossible to get bored because you were running "the same dungeon hundreds of times" because progression was at a different pace back then and the games itemized in a saner manner than WoW and games in its likeness does/do.
If your gear is at least LFR quality there is no content in WoW worth doing except raids. Literally, nothing except one challenge mode dungeon. But aside from that, no literally PvE content is worth running except Raids - and ONLY the current raid tier unless you're raiding Mythic - definitely not anything from the prior expansion.
I can't speak for EQ, but I'm talking about the relevant content for max level players. Someone else with EQ experience can verify if that's true or not.
Again, i'm talking about content that is relevant to max level players, such as dungeons, raids, or pvp; as it is in WoW. Hence my comment about the repetitive nature of discussing tactics or strats, which becomes irrelevant after awhile.
As for WoW, there is also massive content for max leveled characters and alts, and it's also non-linear in leveling.
Questing
Grinding
PvP
Dungeons
Raids
Achievements
Battle Pets
Reputation
Collections
Crafting
Garrisons
etc..
The game is 10 years old, yet people are still bashing it as if it were 2004-2007.
As BadSpock listed above, there was plenty of group content that was forced before Wotlk, but people will always neglect that little fact because it's easier to hate on WoW without any facts.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Yes that is it. People talk to me all the time, sometimes I start sometimes they start. People in Pugs, guilds, on vent... as he said the list goes on and on.
It's you.
You may have discounted the varying personality quirks of people in social interaction. For one a game with practically no down-time is not conducive of casual conversation. Also slam someone into a situation that is continuous combat and rush to the end formula you might as well be talking to a wall when you do try to interact.
I can easily chatter away at a group even in these circumstances but when there is no need for efficiency, nothing to fill the void, because the game itself is trying to ensure there is no void -- you end up with a vacuous encounter with 3-6 other individuals you will likely never speak to again.
That is something that became immediately apparent to me about WoWs mechanics, unless you join a guild; even then only a raiding guild. What if I don't care to raid much. Sucks to be me I guess.
Edit: To clarify, I want a mix of social interaction, challenge, and downtime. To get all three pretty much required raiding. I have never found raid centered play fun. Too many people, gameplay is too one dimensional.
That interaction is way overrated by vets. They view it as something special, but it's not. It was only a side-effect of dungeon design.
After several hundred runs of the same dungeons/raids, the novelty wears off, and that interaction isn't as special to people anymore, unless you're some kind of jaded vet who clamors for socialization to fill that "void" of loneliness. I'm not specifically targeting you, but in general.
I think that's where the WoW kiddies show how little they know of how games were back then. In games like WoW you're funneled to a very shallow amount of content, because the developers obsolete content like clockwork. In games like EQ people were stll grouping in Classic EQ zones in Luclin and PoP. People were still doing Luclin Zones in Omens of War, etc.
The amount of content available to level in was massive, and it only got larger as the game went on. The incentive to mix it up only got greater when they added mechanics like Hot Zones, etc. and of course some quests sent you back to older zones, among other things.
There was not really any instance where players were doing the same dungeons and raids hundreds of times, and even if they were running the same content again, they were running a much larger variety of content than is generally available (worth doing) in most current games.
The issue with games like WoW, PvE-wise, is that the content worth doing is extremely shallow. Raids. The current raid tier ... that's about it. Weeks after the expansion launches the Heroics are worthless. That doesn't leave much, since the game is intentionally designed to have as little useful open world content as possible... You're doing largely the same Daily Quests, running the same Heroics, Running the Same Dungeons. Everything becomes monotonous very quickly because the content has such a low shelf life. Once an expansion launches, they instantly obsolete all prior expansion content.
Even now, there is reason to run previous expansion content in EQ (the gear, augments, etc. are still useful). WoW gear resets are like clockwork.
One of the good things about those older games was the long content shelf life, which made it almost impossible to get bored because you were running "the same dungeon hundreds of times" because progression was at a different pace back then and the games itemized in a saner manner than WoW and games in its likeness does/do.
If your gear is at least LFR quality there is no content in WoW worth doing except raids. Literally, nothing except one challenge mode dungeon. But aside from that, no literally PvE content is worth running except Raids - and ONLY the current raid tier unless you're raiding Mythic - definitely not anything from the prior expansion.
I can't speak for EQ, but I'm talking about the relevant content for max level players. Someone else with EQ experience can verify if that's true or not.
Again, i'm talking about content that is relevant to max level players, such as dungeons, raids, or pvp; as it is in WoW. Hence my comment about the repetitive nature of discussing tactics or strats, which becomes irrelevant after awhile.
As for WoW, there is also massive content for max leveled characters and alts, and it's also non-linear in leveling.
Questing
Grinding
PvP
Dungeons
Raids
Achievements
Battle Pets
Reputation
Collections
Crafting
Garrisons
etc..
The game is 10 years old, yet people are still bashing it as if it were 2004-2007.
As BadSpock listed above, there was plenty of group content that was forced before Wotlk, but people will always neglect that little fact because it's easier to hate on WoW without any facts.
Previous expansion zones were still relevant to max level players in EQ. That is the whole point of my post.
And if you actually Play WoW you'd see just how worthless much of what you listed is to a max level character. Really, that game is very weak for content and giving its players things to do; especially things to do that are relevant to character progression.
You have Raids in WoW. That's it's.
Also, what do you grind in WoW? I'm just... a bit confused that you listed that. I mean, you can perhaps grind Reputation... but you listed them both separately, Lol. There is nothing to grind in WoW, except maybe reputations and raids to gear up. You don't grind XP in WoW. You follow a linear Quest Progression - This zone is for levels 40-45, this zone is for levels 45-50 and you do the quest hubs in this order to level up, etc.
In order to "feel" like WoW has anything to offer outside of raids, you have to be a pretty super casual player. Most raiders there log in for raids and then go play other games or simply log off and go live life, because the game doesn't offer much outside of that. If you play 20 minutes a day any game will feel like it has tons of stuff to offer - WoW included, and games like EQ/EQ2 will feel absolutely overwhelming because they actually have a ton more relevant content at any point in time than WoW could ever dream of.
We're aware the game is old, which is why it's even harder than before to stomach the play experience for some of us. We've been there, and been there again, and been there again, etc. and are just tired of it. Not burnt out... tired of it, because it's extremely uninteresting and borderline antisocial. The whole point in playing an MMORPG is to get what other people in this thread seem to be bashing. They're missing the bigger picture some are saying, and what the article is getting at.
This is less about WoW vs. EQ or Vanguard or Age of Conan or Warhammer or whatever and more about the general state of the genre and how it has been so heavily influenced by WoW's success (which led many others to imitate both its good and bad parts); in addition to how it has conditioned players who experienced MMORPGs largely on WoW or its clones.
ADDITIONALLY: The idea that only older people played games like EQ back in the day and people avoided it because of expensive capped internet plans is ludicrous. EQ ran find even on Dial-Up Connections because MMORPGs don't really require a ton of bandwidth (latency and disconnects was the only real thing you had to worry about) and the only time you had to worry about that was when patching the game, since it came on CD-ROM back then (which almost everyone with a PC had). In the USA, there weren't many capped internet plans, unless you were using some free ISP like NetZero or Juno. People who paid for their internet connection didn't have to worry about that. There were more than enough middle-college aged students in the game back then, they just played when they can and logged off when they couldn't ;-)
Player attitudes and behaviors in game were different, though, so that is something that you'll notice if you compare the typical player from back then to many of today's players. Things were much better back then, from that standpoint. You can barely engage anyone in a game these days. It's like rush hour at all hours, now. Back then you could just meet someone and go explore things, and the emphasis was more on the comraderie and exploration and less on the numbers (XP, Gear upgrades, etc.). People these days feel like they should be rewarded for every minute they spend in the game, instead of looking at the experience itself as being rewarding. The perspective is completely different now.
And the games won't change back to what they were before, because it's just what people expect and what they want, now. They won't go back to the way it was before. They don't like difficulty. They like hand-outs. These welfare MMOs are the norm now. We'll all have to get used to it.
Buy a PS4 or XBOne and spend your money on other genres of games if you don't like it. It's what I'm doing :-P
Previous expansion zones were still relevant to max level players in EQ. That is the whole point of my post.
And if you actually Play WoW you'd see just how worthless much of what you listed is to a max level character. Really, that game is very weak for content and giving its players things to do; especially things to do that are relevant to character progression.
You have Raids in WoW. That's it's.
It's not irrelevant at all. It's progression.
If we're talking about gear/attribute progression, here's a list.
You seem to have a narrow view of character progression. Collections/Achievements are also a form of progression, whether it's collecting toys, mounts, mini pets/battle pets, exclusive reputation items, etc.
If you want to compare and contrast WoW's progression to EQ, or other older MMO's, outside of Raids, then go for it. Just realize that's there's several ways to obtain gear besides raiding.
I don't see how you can say, "You have Raids in WoW. That's it.", because it's not true at all, as i have listed other forms of content at max level.
Also, what do you grind in WoW? I'm just... a bit confused that you listed that. I mean, you can perhaps grind Reputation... but you listed them both separately, Lol. There is nothing to grind in WoW, except maybe reputations and raids to gear up. You don't grind XP in WoW. You follow a linear Quest Progression - This zone is for levels 40-45, this zone is for levels 45-50 and you do the quest hubs in this order to level up, etc.
I listed them separately, because people grind/farm for different purposes; crafting materials, rep items, gold, rare BOE's, mounts, mini pets, or just for leveling. How can you say there's nothing to grind in WoW? I just listed the reasons.
Again, you have a narrow view of linear leveling. There are many forms of leveling, which is non-linear.
Questing
PvP
Dungeons
Grinding mobs
Garrison missions (iirc)
In order to "feel" like WoW has anything to offer outside of raids, you have to be a pretty super casual player. Most raiders there log in for raids and then go play other games or simply log off and go live life, because the game doesn't offer much outside of that. If you play 20 minutes a day any game will feel like it has tons of stuff to offer - WoW included, and games like EQ/EQ2 will feel absolutely overwhelming because they actually have a ton more relevant content at any point in time than WoW could ever dream of.
A common misconception of WoW haters. It takes a couple hours or longer to get things done, whether it's acquiring honor/conquest points, crafting mats, dungeon gear, heroics, raids, dailies, justice/valor points, reputation, transmog gear, legacy raids, pet battles, acquisition of mounts and mini pets, etc.. Keep in mind some of these things changed after WoD. The only thing keeping people from doing more, is because of weekly caps for conquest and raids. Most of this is just for one character, and not alts, which takes longer if you have 11 (max per server now). Each dungeon or pvp match is 30-45+ minutes.
We're aware the game is old, which is why it's even harder than before to stomach the play experience for some of us. We've been there, and been there again, and been there again, etc. and are just tired of it. Not burnt out... tired of it, because it's extremely uninteresting and borderline antisocial. The whole point in playing an MMORPG is to get what other people in this thread seem to be bashing. They're missing the bigger picture some are saying, and what the article is getting at.
Another misconception. This only really applies to leveling or dungeon runs. There is a lot of socialization in guild chat, general/trade chat, or even in voice chat servers. I've already explained the reasoning elsewhere in another post about this. The socialization moved to other areas away from leveling, camping, and dungeons, as it was in older MMO's.
This is less about WoW vs. EQ or Vanguard or Age of Conan or Warhammer or whatever and more about the general state of the genre and how it has been so heavily influenced by WoW's success (which led many others to imitate both its good and bad parts); in addition to how it has conditioned players who experienced MMORPGs largely on WoW or its clones.
This is borderline hyperbole. It hasn't conditioned anyone. It made things more convenient, which forever enraged anti-social neckbeards, who think 12+ hour camping sessions on a chair felt "social". Sorry, but that's anti-social.
WoW only opened the floodgates due to monetary potential, additional ease of access to the internet. Where it became possible for anyone to access it for pretty much nothing changed the player profile/base.
This has led money grabbing publishers , a dumbed (simplify or reduce the intellectual content of something so as to make it accessible to a larger number of people) down player base who believe Instant Win & F2P is the way to go has ruined good design potential and gameplay.
While the publishers have raked it in with poorly thought out games with no real game play and micro transaction (I don't blame the publishers for this either).
Thankfully the people who know what a good game is are cutting out the publishers and going down the Crowd Forged route, where we will yet again get in depth focused games that you have to play. And even if we don't at least people are re thinking the Genre and that needs a reset.
The problem is not WoW , it is the Publishers and the dumbed down player base.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
"It is completely fair. It is called Evolution and one day it should start applying to gaming as a whole as well.
Let us take a look at what we have here in Europe;
Themepark
World of Warcraft Guild Wars II FFXIV: A realm Reborn Star Wars: The Old Republic Elder Scrolls Online WildStar
Sandbox
Eve Online
[B]MMO-esque[/B]
Destiny
Upcoming
Everquest Next Division Star Citizen
*Only mentioning "heavy-hitters"
And here is the mentality of the average Western gamer with MMOs,
a) Plays WoW for a long period of time. b) Gets burned and moves to different genre like MOBAs. c) Has enough of MOBAs. d) Returns to WoW or starts playing single-player games.
alternatively,
b) Has a break and tries out different MMOrpgs (FFXIV, GW2, SWTOR, ESO, WildStar) c) Calls them WoW-clones and goes back to WoW. d) Decides he needs something "new and refreshing" and starts throwing money into the Kickstarter/F2P scam. e) Starts hyping to death the game he has funded or the game he plays for free. f) Realizes the scam (P2W cash-shops, broken/unfinished game ever after launch). g) Decides to tell everyone to "Fuck themselves"; http://www.destructoid.com/2014-go-f-ck-yourself-285481.phtml
As a matter of fact Westerners; predominantly the media and publishers, not only "killed" the MMO genre but created this culture of Jumpers; MMO players that play an MMO for a bit and move to the next one. As a result the MMO market here in the West became stagnant for two reasons; because it did not not evolve and because it produced too many clones/oversaturate genres (MOBAs, Themeparks, Sandboxes) that either try to exploit the WoW-factor or the old-school feeling (SWG, UO, DAoC). Add that up with the continuous shady practices from companies like Trion, Ubisoft, Activion, EA and you get the full picture.
However one thing I do give massive props to the West is with online space and military combat; Star Citizen, Elite: Dangerous, EVE Valkyrie, Dreadnought, Fractured Space and of course the World of Tanks/Planes/Battleships franchise.
In contrast the Asian MMO market is booming with different and evolutionary MMOs; Blade & Souls, Black Desert Online, Monster Hunter Online, Kingdom Under Fire II, Moonlight Blade, Tree of Savior, Lost Ark Online, Lineage Eternal, Revelation, Phantasy Star Online 2, Peria Chronicles Online, Dragon's Dogma Online, Project Hon to name a few. And I would argue again for two reasons; they do not have this nansy-pansy Euro-communist bureaucracy (banning and removing content) or this mindset of political correctness and ultra-condemning attitude.
If you actually research the online gaming market in Asia you will get lost in translation; there are so many online experiences to virtually suit everyone whether it is gameplay, story-telling, theme, virtual surroundings, visuals and combat. Short version, Westerners need to be thankful that World of Warcraft exists in this cesspool of mediocrity and not blame it for being the best at what it does. And they also need to start producing good MMOrpgs, actually good, instead of blaming it on this "WoW-spoiled" community. The community is not spoiled; it has standards and it expects those standards to be maintained.
Wolfshed is making the argument that World of Warcraft is like Justin Bieber; it became popular for all the wrong reasons which is foolish".
Writer of the column "An MMO that was once an RPG" on 2P.com
Comments
I think that's where the WoW kiddies show how little they know of how games were back then. In games like WoW you're funneled to a very shallow amount of content, because the developers obsolete content like clockwork. In games like EQ people were stll grouping in Classic EQ zones in Luclin and PoP. People were still doing Luclin Zones in Omens of War, etc.
The amount of content available to level in was massive, and it only got larger as the game went on. The incentive to mix it up only got greater when they added mechanics like Hot Zones, etc. and of course some quests sent you back to older zones, among other things.
There was not really any instance where players were doing the same dungeons and raids hundreds of times, and even if they were running the same content again, they were running a much larger variety of content than is generally available (worth doing) in most current games.
The issue with games like WoW, PvE-wise, is that the content worth doing is extremely shallow. Raids. The current raid tier ... that's about it. Weeks after the expansion launches the Heroics are worthless. That doesn't leave much, since the game is intentionally designed to have as little useful open world content as possible... You're doing largely the same Daily Quests, running the same Heroics, Running the Same Dungeons. Everything becomes monotonous very quickly because the content has such a low shelf life. Once an expansion launches, they instantly obsolete all prior expansion content.
Even now, there is reason to run previous expansion content in EQ (the gear, augments, etc. are still useful). WoW gear resets are like clockwork.
One of the good things about those older games was the long content shelf life, which made it almost impossible to get bored because you were running "the same dungeon hundreds of times" because progression was at a different pace back then and the games itemized in a saner manner than WoW and games in its likeness does/do.
If your gear is at least LFR quality there is no content in WoW worth doing except raids. Literally, nothing except one challenge mode dungeon. But aside from that, no literally PvE content is worth running except Raids - and ONLY the current raid tier unless you're raiding Mythic - definitely not anything from the prior expansion.
EQ had a command for speaking out of character... /ooc
Games back then encouraged Role Playing.
If you actually read the link in the OP, like most people in this thread DIDN'T, one of the things he laments is not only the lack of social interaction but the near extinction of Role Playing in these Role Playing Games.
So yea, it doesn't come as a surprise that someone in EQ2 wanted to chat about their RL issues in game. However, I played that game fairly seriously in a serious raid guild for a couple of years and well... It was different. I quit when it went F2P, because that has a tendency to bring in the kinds of players you talk about. The EQ2 community prided itself on being mature and respectful. It was one of the last games with a community that resembled that of those earlier MMORPGs (as a lot of the players there were from those older games, even met a few from Guilds in EQ there... who remembered my character name and struck up a conversation about the "Good Ole Days" with me).
A lot of that is gone, since even a lot of those players quit after the F2P conversion (post Destiny of Velious).
Downtime is not bad. If the game facilitates it by compensating via the XP Rates it should not be an issue. But an MMORPG that is designed in a way that punishes socialization just doesn't work for me, and many other people (evidenced by the amount of nomadic MMORPG gamers out there).
Obsolescence is modus operandum in WoW. Every single expansion.
Admittedly though the only time I got stuck in the repetitive dungeon run was in EQ LDoN. Something adopted later on by WoW when associative 'DKP' or 'Status' driven, and player controlled rewards, became a detrimental issue for the player base at large. Understandably so, it was replaced with personally earned currency and alternative forms for acquisition. Yep that happened years earlier in LDoN and DoN and continued on. Wasn't a WoW thing at all.
In and of itself this is not a bad thing. It only becomes a problem when you sideline older content for the sake of expansion buys. The Kunark expansion was probably the best model I can think of that managed to incorporate the old and new quite well. But WoW, instead of legitimately revitalizing this content for players, reused it to eventually tack on a stint for appeasing completionists.
That was already well established by EQ2 and the Alternative Advancement and Heritage system. Nothing was really unique about WoW except it's ability to market accessibility and a falsely perceived inclusion. And again I digress.
World of Warcraft is the best single thing to happen to the MMORPG genre.
It not only showed publishers and developers that this genre can be profitable but it made the genre mainstream and opened it up to vastly more players. I think it needs to be kept in mind that almost every developer is in this to make money, that's it. If their beloved title they work on stops bringing in the $ then it's thrown to the scrapheap.
Most MMORPG titles that exist today only exist because of wow, most mmorpg titles that exist today would of had small budgets and still probably look like everquest 2 if not for WoW.
If you don't like what the genre has become, maybe that's just too bad and you simply don't make up enough of a playerbase to target. Money > all.
They arent MMORPG players, they want small coop games that are played by small amount of people and "everyone knows everyone" and is played by quite narrow demographic.
And money > all is only possible way to do things, because, as they experience it now, no money, no game
Actually from launch in 2004 until Wrath of the Lich King in 2008 - forced grouping, group quests, very dangerous elite mobs on quests, long attunement and key quests... there were still a lot of the more traditional hardcore style social dependency in WoW.
LFG, the removal of non-dungeon group quests, farming Justice/Valor points for gear, and the age of "AoE everything" etc. all didn't happen until WotLK - 4 full years after WoW launched.
Why?
Well that's (apparently) what many of the 14+ million-some players at the time wanted.
They wanted less hardcore dependency on having to join guilds or beg in chat channels in order to do any of the group content.
They tried to bring back "hard" Heroics in Cataclysm, and the masses rejected them. LFR didn't come about until the end of Cataclysm too. Cata released in 2010 - 6 years after launch.
You know what "big" games also launched in that time frame?
CoH - 2004
EQ2 - 2004
Matrix Online - 2005
GW1 - 2005
LOTRO - 2007
WAR - 2008
AoC - 2008
Star Trek Online - 2010
Now how many of those are either closed down, in the process of closing down, or F2P?
Every. Single. One.
GW1 is going F2P? :O
Closing down.
All new content production has/is stopping. Maintenance mode only from now on.
You still upset because I presented facts which disproved your fairytale argument?
Be honest with yourself. You are caustic and the way I respond to you is totally warranted. Even after I addressed and showed you how disrespectful you were being, you still come back playing the victim as if I mistreated you. Get real.
Regarding this subtopic, theres a very obvious reason why communication between players is no longer a thing in modern MMOs and Greyvee covered it just fine. Not only is the majority of content in MMOs solo content, but the combat is not conducive to conversation or cooperation outside of spamming abilities. There is simply no reason to ever stop, so doing so and talking is generally responded to with "GO GO GO". You no longer need to speak with people to cooperate or coordinate, a simply button on the UI does it for you. You no longer need to look for help to travel or to get buffs, get a revive, or even barter, the client automates everything or these scenarios are removed entirely.
People tend to call these modern games MMOs instead of MMORPGs because they've lost most of the RPG elements. Truth be told, they aren't even MMOs anymore. They are no longer massively multiplayer, they are just online games with the option of multiplayer when it suits you.
People tend to call them MMO because its easier to pronounce rather than MMORPG
Honesly you are pretty wrong here. Not every new MMO is like that. Only way something to be auto is if YOU want it like that. When i play i do it my way. Communication between player is still a thing for those that look for it.
EQ peaked at 500k, that's different to sustained. SWTOR has higher sustained sub numbers. But yeah the vast majority of MMOs are not worth the subs. Also EQ had very little competition back in the day. So there's that.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
This guy is right. The only reason they are called MMOs is because it's easier to pronounce and shorter to type. MMORPG is a very difficult word to pronounce. MMO is much easier,
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
World of Warcraft brought the genre into the "mainstream". Whatever your personal opinion on what that means exactly should be put aside, because WoW's success was/is a good thing for the genre as it brought more interest into an incredibly niche genre. This success should have made it easier to create more diverse, well-crafted MMORPG experiences for players to enjoy. The amount of eyeballs that have been flowing around the genre for years since WoW's takeoff should have made it easy for developers and games studios to craft lasting game worlds and memorable experiences of all different shapes and sizes.
I say should have, because what has actually happened is developers have mostly fallen into the trap of trying to be too great and do too much. Instead of focusing their efforts on particular designs, styles, world types, or gameplay experiences, developers instead seem to have been struck with the idea that each new game to the genre needs to have just as much to offer as its competitors while also presenting a new gimmick or idea to add on top of that. This problem persists in many other areas of the Gaming Industry as well. Instead of focusing their efforts and trying to create experiences unique from World of Warcraft, or other successful games in the genre, developers just try to add little bits on top of what already exists.
It is just as other posters have pointed out in this thread. Each "big name" MMORPG that has come to rise and metaphorically fall during WoW's life cycle has had a few unique elements that could have done much to set them apart from the competition. They offered things that WoW did not, and mostly will never offer. The developers just never got around to fully investing themselves into these ideas (Rifts zone events, Warhammers RvR, SWTOR's Storytelling, AoC's open world PvP, Archeage's sandboxyness, etc.) by constantly feeling the need to shape their worlds in the familiar style of what WoW offers. In each game there were always huge parts of the game which were going to be a given, developed in a similar style just like anyone else and never to be as good as what WoW offered or to really offer a fresh take on the genre in any significant capacity. Each game needed to follow the checklist of things such as:
1. Quest driven leveling process
2. Dungeons and/or Raiding to gear up your character
3. Battleground style PvP
4. Talent Trees, Class Trainers, Mount Vendors all working just as they had many moons ago
5. Dailies, always the dailies.
6. Crafting, mostly consisting of gather X amount of mats to craft Y to gain levels. Only useful stuff was at max level
Even though the list could go longer, I feel the point is made. Each game was familiar, the same, easy to dive into and understand its working parts. Each game felt all a part of the same wavelength never wanting to stray to far from the "expected" and as a result as caused an entirely new form of payment model (F2P, cashshops) to dominate the market just so these games can survive and create revenue for themselves.
Is WoW or Blizzard to blame for the staleness in the MMORPG market? I would say not at all. What is to blame are the creative minds behind the genre failing to understand and adapt their designs to create quality products. Trying to do too much and be too broad will always spell doom for a game development team simply because resources are just too finite and time too limited. Focusing their efforts on unique styles and worlds, while possibly abandoning certain preconceptions of what "needs" to be in a MMO game, would do wonders in creating a feeling of diversity in the MMORPG market while giving players reasons to stick around in the game world by offering experiences they can't find in other titles.
Has that ever been confirmed by EA? Think I've only seen Superdata numbers.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
I agree for the most part. But DoN and LDoN are two of like 16 expansions EQ has had (or is it 14? I cannot keep track). LDoN was worse than Luclin and PoP zones for XP. It was good for casuals, though, who wanted something dependably shorter that they could do and log off (it was sort of bad etiquette to join a grind group and then leave in 15 minutes without a replacement in EQ back then). DoDH also had instances, but they were far from trivial. Guild groups were... suggested :-P
As far as AAs, once you got a decent amount they sort or took care of themselves. You got the ones that were vital and everything else was icing on the cake. You grouped largely to play with friends - the cooperative play was the biggest draw of that game to me.
I remember in DoN expansion my Necro dinged 1,000 AAs. I was buying Resist AAs at that point. No different in any other expansion as time went on. You got the most needed ones ASAP and then the rest were icing on the cake. You grouped a lot because it was simply FUN to play with friends, and people were a bit more tight knit in that game, and got to know each other a bit better.
Which is why the story upthread (or was it another thread?) about someone talking about their RL is funny. It was not unheard of for people to talk about real life in EQ. There were /role tag to let people know that you were role playing. There was /ooc to speak out of character. The game had all the "mechanics" in place to facilitate all types of communication (without necessarily discouraging any type) and the pace of gameplay facilitated communication - especially when you consider almost all communication was text based back then - you had to TYPE your sentences and that's hard to do when you're mashing 20 buttons.
I think the trend towards more action combat MAY have something to do with the proliferation of voice chat in video games these days though. It's easier to mash buttons when you can just chat through an open mic, as opposed to having to text chat. However, I think most people would find role playing via voice chat a bit odd. I still find it works better on a console game, though, where the Voice Chatting is built into the console services and the controls are more friendly to those type of combat systems.
Hence, my next paragraph.
"One can only socialize so much about a game before it becomes mundane and monotonous."
I'm all for discussing strategy, but it becomes irrelevant when you're with a competent group that already knows what to do. There really isn't much to talk about after that.
This ongoing trend of younger folks having no freeking clue... but genuinely believing they do.
See my signature, I blame the parents.
I can't speak for EQ, but I'm talking about the relevant content for max level players. Someone else with EQ experience can verify if that's true or not.
Again, i'm talking about content that is relevant to max level players, such as dungeons, raids, or pvp; as it is in WoW. Hence my comment about the repetitive nature of discussing tactics or strats, which becomes irrelevant after awhile.
As for WoW, there is also massive content for max leveled characters and alts, and it's also non-linear in leveling.
Previous expansion zones were still relevant to max level players in EQ. That is the whole point of my post.
And if you actually Play WoW you'd see just how worthless much of what you listed is to a max level character. Really, that game is very weak for content and giving its players things to do; especially things to do that are relevant to character progression.
You have Raids in WoW. That's it's.
Also, what do you grind in WoW? I'm just... a bit confused that you listed that. I mean, you can perhaps grind Reputation... but you listed them both separately, Lol. There is nothing to grind in WoW, except maybe reputations and raids to gear up. You don't grind XP in WoW. You follow a linear Quest Progression - This zone is for levels 40-45, this zone is for levels 45-50 and you do the quest hubs in this order to level up, etc.
In order to "feel" like WoW has anything to offer outside of raids, you have to be a pretty super casual player. Most raiders there log in for raids and then go play other games or simply log off and go live life, because the game doesn't offer much outside of that. If you play 20 minutes a day any game will feel like it has tons of stuff to offer - WoW included, and games like EQ/EQ2 will feel absolutely overwhelming because they actually have a ton more relevant content at any point in time than WoW could ever dream of.
We're aware the game is old, which is why it's even harder than before to stomach the play experience for some of us. We've been there, and been there again, and been there again, etc. and are just tired of it. Not burnt out... tired of it, because it's extremely uninteresting and borderline antisocial. The whole point in playing an MMORPG is to get what other people in this thread seem to be bashing. They're missing the bigger picture some are saying, and what the article is getting at.
This is less about WoW vs. EQ or Vanguard or Age of Conan or Warhammer or whatever and more about the general state of the genre and how it has been so heavily influenced by WoW's success (which led many others to imitate both its good and bad parts); in addition to how it has conditioned players who experienced MMORPGs largely on WoW or its clones.
ADDITIONALLY: The idea that only older people played games like EQ back in the day and people avoided it because of expensive capped internet plans is ludicrous. EQ ran find even on Dial-Up Connections because MMORPGs don't really require a ton of bandwidth (latency and disconnects was the only real thing you had to worry about) and the only time you had to worry about that was when patching the game, since it came on CD-ROM back then (which almost everyone with a PC had). In the USA, there weren't many capped internet plans, unless you were using some free ISP like NetZero or Juno. People who paid for their internet connection didn't have to worry about that. There were more than enough middle-college aged students in the game back then, they just played when they can and logged off when they couldn't ;-)
Player attitudes and behaviors in game were different, though, so that is something that you'll notice if you compare the typical player from back then to many of today's players. Things were much better back then, from that standpoint. You can barely engage anyone in a game these days. It's like rush hour at all hours, now. Back then you could just meet someone and go explore things, and the emphasis was more on the comraderie and exploration and less on the numbers (XP, Gear upgrades, etc.). People these days feel like they should be rewarded for every minute they spend in the game, instead of looking at the experience itself as being rewarding. The perspective is completely different now.
And the games won't change back to what they were before, because it's just what people expect and what they want, now. They won't go back to the way it was before. They don't like difficulty. They like hand-outs. These welfare MMOs are the norm now. We'll all have to get used to it.
Buy a PS4 or XBOne and spend your money on other genres of games if you don't like it. It's what I'm doing :-P
WoW only opened the floodgates due to monetary potential, additional ease of access to the internet. Where it became possible for anyone to access it for pretty much nothing changed the player profile/base.
This has led money grabbing publishers , a dumbed (simplify or reduce the intellectual content of something so as to make it accessible to a larger number of people) down player base who believe Instant Win & F2P is the way to go has ruined good design potential and gameplay.
While the publishers have raked it in with poorly thought out games with no real game play and micro transaction (I don't blame the publishers for this either).
Thankfully the people who know what a good game is are cutting out the publishers and going down the Crowd Forged route, where we will yet again get in depth focused games that you have to play. And even if we don't at least people are re thinking the Genre and that needs a reset.
The problem is not WoW , it is the Publishers and the dumbed down player base.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Reposting a response to a forum-user when he linked the following video from Force Gaming; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnUqYGDwQNc
"It is completely fair. It is called Evolution and one day it should start applying to gaming as a whole as well.
Let us take a look at what we have here in Europe;
Themepark
World of Warcraft
Guild Wars II
FFXIV: A realm Reborn
Star Wars: The Old Republic
Elder Scrolls Online
WildStar
Sandbox
Eve Online
[B]MMO-esque[/B]
Destiny
Upcoming
Everquest Next
Division
Star Citizen
*Only mentioning "heavy-hitters"
And here is the mentality of the average Western gamer with MMOs,
a) Plays WoW for a long period of time.
b) Gets burned and moves to different genre like MOBAs.
c) Has enough of MOBAs.
d) Returns to WoW or starts playing single-player games.
alternatively,
b) Has a break and tries out different MMOrpgs (FFXIV, GW2, SWTOR, ESO, WildStar)
c) Calls them WoW-clones and goes back to WoW.
d) Decides he needs something "new and refreshing" and starts throwing money into the Kickstarter/F2P scam.
e) Starts hyping to death the game he has funded or the game he plays for free.
f) Realizes the scam (P2W cash-shops, broken/unfinished game ever after launch).
g) Decides to tell everyone to "Fuck themselves"; http://www.destructoid.com/2014-go-f-ck-yourself-285481.phtml
As a matter of fact Westerners; predominantly the media and publishers, not only "killed" the MMO genre but created this culture of Jumpers; MMO players that play an MMO for a bit and move to the next one. As a result the MMO market here in the West became stagnant for two reasons; because it did not not evolve and because it produced too many clones/oversaturate genres (MOBAs, Themeparks, Sandboxes) that either try to exploit the WoW-factor or the old-school feeling (SWG, UO, DAoC). Add that up with the continuous shady practices from companies like Trion, Ubisoft, Activion, EA and you get the full picture.
However one thing I do give massive props to the West is with online space and military combat; Star Citizen, Elite: Dangerous, EVE Valkyrie, Dreadnought, Fractured Space and of course the World of Tanks/Planes/Battleships franchise.
In contrast the Asian MMO market is booming with different and evolutionary MMOs; Blade & Souls, Black Desert Online, Monster Hunter Online, Kingdom Under Fire II, Moonlight Blade, Tree of Savior, Lost Ark Online, Lineage Eternal, Revelation, Phantasy Star Online 2, Peria Chronicles Online, Dragon's Dogma Online, Project Hon to name a few. And I would argue again for two reasons; they do not have this nansy-pansy Euro-communist bureaucracy (banning and removing content) or this mindset of political correctness and ultra-condemning attitude.
If you actually research the online gaming market in Asia you will get lost in translation; there are so many online experiences to virtually suit everyone whether it is gameplay, story-telling, theme, virtual surroundings, visuals and combat.
Short version, Westerners need to be thankful that World of Warcraft exists in this cesspool of mediocrity and not blame it for being the best at what it does. And they also need to start producing good MMOrpgs, actually good, instead of blaming it on this "WoW-spoiled" community. The community is not spoiled; it has standards and it expects those standards to be maintained.
Wolfshed is making the argument that World of Warcraft is like Justin Bieber; it became popular for all the wrong reasons which is foolish".
Writer of the column "An MMO that was once an RPG" on 2P.com
http://2p.com/user/activity.htm?userId=54a1c09361fc18b91cb56fc3
Seems extremely interesting and thanks for that. Will definitely check it out tomorrow.
Writer of the column "An MMO that was once an RPG" on 2P.com
http://2p.com/user/activity.htm?userId=54a1c09361fc18b91cb56fc3