Writing and programming thousands of quests takes a lot of time and resources.Sure, it's "content" but is it good content?I don't think so.If you were to analyze the time players spend in game, the activities they perform, and extend that timeline well past the point players reach whatever "cap" you place on their progression, you'll almost always find the vast majority of their playtime goes into activities that are designed from the get go to be repeatable.It isn't rocket science.One and done content takes forever and a day to write and code, and the ratio of "time spent creating" vs. "time spent playing" is way, way off.Now a really well designed dungeon, or PvP battleground, etc. might take 100x times as long to create as a single quest, but you'll get 1000x times the play time out of it...So instead of making 100 quests, make 1 good dungeon instead and increase your create to play ratio ten fold. Systems based game play, which leads to emergent game play, has the potential to create infinite play time.If you can make the systems behind "camping mobs for XP" engaging and fun, you can create ample variety and nearly endless play time. It's why people play 100's of hours on the same 8-10 maps in an FPS game, or thousands of hours on the SAME map in a MOBA.Make the core gameplay systems solid, add a bit of variety (location, objectives etc.) and your content consumption will not have a ceiling.
I'm actually quite bored of seeing you pop up in these threads with your mumbo jumbo, why are you not working for a dev team.
Systems based game play, which leads to emergent game play, has the potential to create infinite play time.
If you can make the systems behind "camping mobs for XP" engaging and fun, you can create ample variety and nearly endless play time. It's why people play 100's of hours on the same 8-10 maps in an FPS game, or thousands of hours on the SAME map in a MOBA.
Make the core gameplay systems solid, add a bit of variety (location, objectives etc.) and your content consumption will not have a ceiling.
I'm actually quite bored of seeing you pop up in these threads with your mumbo jumbo, why are you not working for a dev team.
Hah well thanks, but I can easily say things like "If you can make the systems behind "camping mobs for XP" engaging and fun, you can create ample variety and nearly endless play time" but actually creating such a game play system requires more than ideas, it takes code and programming skill and defining the raw numbers etc.
Ideas are grand, but implementation, as the genre has proven over and over and over again, is the real meat and potatoes.
Some really good points, I wouldn't expect them to pull off some of what your suggesting but if they do huge bonus. Also if they don't to me at least I think it will be more enjoyable then doing the go to quest hub pick up 3-6 quests by myself rinse and repeat.
I would imagine, by not having thousands of quests/hubs, even though it's a small team, more time can be dedicated to other more meaningful gameplay elements rather than creating pages of text for each quest that no one reads, clicks accept, and moves on to the next wall of text.
Was actually thinking the same thing, just hope they can put in some of the idea's that have been suggested / mentioned earlier in this thread.
Systems based game play, which leads to emergent game play, has the potential to create infinite play time.
If you can make the systems behind "camping mobs for XP" engaging and fun, you can create ample variety and nearly endless play time. It's why people play 100's of hours on the same 8-10 maps in an FPS game, or thousands of hours on the SAME map in a MOBA.
Make the core gameplay systems solid, add a bit of variety (location, objectives etc.) and your content consumption will not have a ceiling.
I'm actually quite bored of seeing you pop up in these threads with your mumbo jumbo, why are you not working for a dev team.
Hah well thanks, but I can easily say things like "If you can make the systems behind "camping mobs for XP" engaging and fun, you can create ample variety and nearly endless play time" but actually creating such a game play system requires more than ideas, it takes code and programming skill and defining the raw numbers etc.
Ideas are grand, but implementation, as the genre has proven over and over and over again, is the real meat and potatoes.
You're so right here. I really believe thats what made EQ so much fun and somewhat hard to define. Its also why people who didn't really play don't quite understand and attempt to brand it as simply grindy or laborious.
The class and combat system in EQ was greater than the sum of its parts. Its commonly referred to as "emergent gameplay" today, and constantly offered ways to push the limitations of your character or group. Finding certain items or using them in conjunction with certain abilities allowed you to overcome encounters that were previously impossible. Examples of this are feign death, certain impairment effects, charming, resist gear or other items or clickies used at the right place and time. For instance, a warrior was the greatest tank in the game, yet they required time to build enough threat to keep a mob from destroying the rest of your group. This was often a very mana intensive process. When a warrior used a rare expendable item, all of a sudden he was able to hold threat earlier and longer allowing other players to debuff and damage a powerful boss earlier which then allowed healers to keep the tank up long enough to succeed in a fight where otherwise they wouldn't have sufficient mana to do so.
Everquest was filled with those types of scenarios, which made even camping items and XP both challenging and enjoyable.
People rally very strongly against instanced dungeons quite often on these forums.
I get that, the whole idea of a 15-20 minute dungeon you repeat over and over to either wait for RNG to give you the drop you are looking for, or to grind out enough badges or marks or whatever to purchase something from a vendor, or farm up enough reputation to hit that next level etc.
I really think that goes against what MMO's are supposed to be about.
There was a time, however, where an instanced dungeon was a multi-winged labyrinth with a dozen or more bosses that would take hours and hours to clear, with complex encounters and challenging situations.
Yeah, you could spend 6 hours in the same dungeon and get no loot for it.
But it was still awesome and tons of fun.
You were happy when your buddy got those cloth gloves they had been waiting on. You knew they'd be that slight bit better of a healer now, and that'd help you push to the next level in your raid group.
You can't just say "instanced dungeons are bad" - it's not as simple as that.
Implementation is everything.
MMOs are a (hopefully) carefully woven layer of many, many complimentary systems that when working together create an experience unique in all other genres of video games.
You get ONE of those systems off by enough, and the whole weave breaks apart and the whole thing just doesn't work.
It's kind of like the BS Chaos theory example from Jurassic Park that everyone knows. A butterfly flaps its wings in Peking and you get rain in Central Park.
MMOs are just like that. They are so big, so complex, and so intertwined that even the smallest, seemingly most unimportant thing can have massive, monumental effect on something else.
Tweak the drop rate on one item and an entire server economy can full apart.
Buff one spell ever so slightly for one class and 3 other classes can see their play rate drop off the charts.
Anyone who says "it's simple, just don't do this!" has no freak'n clue what they are talking about
People rally very strongly against instanced dungeons quite often on these forums.
I get that, the whole idea of a 15-20 minute dungeon you repeat over and over to either wait for RNG to give you the drop you are looking for, or to grind out enough badges or marks or whatever to purchase something from a vendor, or farm up enough reputation to hit that next level etc.
I really think that goes against what MMO's are supposed to be about.
There was a time, however, where an instanced dungeon was a multi-winged labyrinth with a dozen or more bosses that would take hours and hours to clear, with complex encounters and challenging situations.
Yeah, you could spend 6 hours in the same dungeon and get no loot for it.
But it was still awesome and tons of fun.
You were happy when your buddy got those cloth gloves they had been waiting on. You knew they'd be that slight bit better of a healer now, and that'd help you push to the next level in your raid group.
You can't just say "instanced dungeons are bad" - it's not as simple as that.
Implementation is everything.
MMOs are a (hopefully) carefully woven layer of many, many complimentary systems that when working together create an experience unique in all other genres of video games.
You get ONE of those systems off by enough, and the whole weave breaks apart and the whole thing just doesn't work.
It's kind of like the BS Chaos theory example from Jurassic Park that everyone knows. A butterfly flaps its wings in Peking and you get rain in Central Park.
MMOs are just like that. They are so big, so complex, and so intertwined that even the smallest, seemingly most unimportant thing can have massive, monumental effect on something else.
Tweak the drop rate on one item and an entire server economy can full apart.
Buff one spell ever so slightly for one class and 3 other classes can see their play rate drop off the charts.
Anyone who says "it's simple, just don't do this!" has no freak'n clue what they are talking about
While I agree with what you are saying, instancing is a bad example. Yes, everything you could do in a normal dungeon can be accomplished mechanically in an instance, but that isn't the problem. The problem is open world dungeons are massively multiplayer, instances are not.
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I'm actually quite bored of seeing you pop up in these threads with your mumbo jumbo, why are you not working for a dev team.Hah well thanks, but I can easily say things like "If you can make the systems behind "camping mobs for XP" engaging and fun, you can create ample variety and nearly endless play time" but actually creating such a game play system requires more than ideas, it takes code and programming skill and defining the raw numbers etc.
Ideas are grand, but implementation, as the genre has proven over and over and over again, is the real meat and potatoes.
Was actually thinking the same thing, just hope they can put in some of the idea's that have been suggested / mentioned earlier in this thread.
Nothing truer has ever been spoken on these forums.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
You're so right here. I really believe thats what made EQ so much fun and somewhat hard to define. Its also why people who didn't really play don't quite understand and attempt to brand it as simply grindy or laborious.
The class and combat system in EQ was greater than the sum of its parts. Its commonly referred to as "emergent gameplay" today, and constantly offered ways to push the limitations of your character or group. Finding certain items or using them in conjunction with certain abilities allowed you to overcome encounters that were previously impossible. Examples of this are feign death, certain impairment effects, charming, resist gear or other items or clickies used at the right place and time. For instance, a warrior was the greatest tank in the game, yet they required time to build enough threat to keep a mob from destroying the rest of your group. This was often a very mana intensive process. When a warrior used a rare expendable item, all of a sudden he was able to hold threat earlier and longer allowing other players to debuff and damage a powerful boss earlier which then allowed healers to keep the tank up long enough to succeed in a fight where otherwise they wouldn't have sufficient mana to do so.
Everquest was filled with those types of scenarios, which made even camping items and XP both challenging and enjoyable.
Implementation is everything.
People rally very strongly against instanced dungeons quite often on these forums.
I get that, the whole idea of a 15-20 minute dungeon you repeat over and over to either wait for RNG to give you the drop you are looking for, or to grind out enough badges or marks or whatever to purchase something from a vendor, or farm up enough reputation to hit that next level etc.
I really think that goes against what MMO's are supposed to be about.
There was a time, however, where an instanced dungeon was a multi-winged labyrinth with a dozen or more bosses that would take hours and hours to clear, with complex encounters and challenging situations.
Yeah, you could spend 6 hours in the same dungeon and get no loot for it.
But it was still awesome and tons of fun.
You were happy when your buddy got those cloth gloves they had been waiting on. You knew they'd be that slight bit better of a healer now, and that'd help you push to the next level in your raid group.
You can't just say "instanced dungeons are bad" - it's not as simple as that.
Implementation is everything.
MMOs are a (hopefully) carefully woven layer of many, many complimentary systems that when working together create an experience unique in all other genres of video games.
You get ONE of those systems off by enough, and the whole weave breaks apart and the whole thing just doesn't work.
It's kind of like the BS Chaos theory example from Jurassic Park that everyone knows. A butterfly flaps its wings in Peking and you get rain in Central Park.
MMOs are just like that. They are so big, so complex, and so intertwined that even the smallest, seemingly most unimportant thing can have massive, monumental effect on something else.
Tweak the drop rate on one item and an entire server economy can full apart.
Buff one spell ever so slightly for one class and 3 other classes can see their play rate drop off the charts.
Anyone who says "it's simple, just don't do this!" has no freak'n clue what they are talking about
While I agree with what you are saying, instancing is a bad example. Yes, everything you could do in a normal dungeon can be accomplished mechanically in an instance, but that isn't the problem. The problem is open world dungeons are massively multiplayer, instances are not.
Otherwise, I'm feelin' ya.
After a quick read of the thread, it would seem most of us are on the same page. A succinct summary:
we want: challenging, engaging, class -synergistic combat. Nothing is a grind, if it's fun.
Please, oh please institute a death penalty with some sting, just to get some adrenaline going. But that's a topic for another day.
Cheers,
Skeez