Originally posted by Bladestrom Oh dear, less analysis and more fan me thinks.
Typical WOW rotations are fairly self-evident regarding the game's combat depth. That page leaves out boss-specific and teammate-specific factors that further alter the perfect rotation for any given fight.
So there's a certain objective certainty to the depth of WOW's combat, and thus far nobody has been able to show a MMORPG with superior combat decision depth (by showing evidence in the form of a guide or video.)
I don't really consider myself a fan of anything really. I measure games by depth and interesting decisions. If another MMORPG came along which was better at that than WOW, I'd drop WOW in an instant. My only loyalty is to the game offering the best gameplay.
As you said yourself, you have your perfect rotations, theres 0 decisions in that.
Any skill based PvP is more decision heavy than your perfect rotation.
And, since top end raiding is probably THE least popular thing in WoW (and always have been, not just in WoW, in any MMO that had raiding), its not best gameplay. Since in lower difficulties you can faceroll to various degrees.
Again you show your ignorance and obvious lack of understanding. You obviously have never raided at any level above casual or were not capable of understanding your class' mechanics to perform at a high enough level to get into a raid group. There are tons of decisions to be made as many skills are situation based. The wrong selection, and you can wipe a raid. You may begin with a rotation, but the quickly changes based on the situations that arise.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Originally posted by psychobgr I think balance happens mostly if the game ties the same characters from pve to pvp. I'm a believer that a cloth wearing mage should rain down huge damage and a plate wearing sword and board can take alot of damage but not dish out massive damage. My first MMO was DAoC and the system they used worked well in pve and pvp.
I feel it should be situational. If that sword and board can close to within melee range, he should obliterate the mage in one swing. If a thief can get behind either of them, a backstab should take care of them, but let him be seen first and he's a dead duck.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Oh dear, less analysis and more fan me thinks.
Typical WOW rotations are fairly self-evident regarding the game's combat depth. That page leaves out boss-specific and teammate-specific factors that further alter the perfect rotation for any given fight.
So there's a certain objective certainty to the depth of WOW's combat, and thus far nobody has been able to show a MMORPG with superior combat decision depth (by showing evidence in the form of a guide or video.)
I don't really consider myself a fan of anything really. I measure games by depth and interesting decisions. If another MMORPG came along which was better at that than WOW, I'd drop WOW in an instant. My only loyalty is to the game offering the best gameplay.
As you said yourself, you have your perfect rotations, theres 0 decisions in that.
Any skill based PvP is more decision heavy than your perfect rotation.
And, since top end raiding is probably THE least popular thing in WoW (and always have been, not just in WoW, in any MMO that had raiding), its not best gameplay. Since in lower difficulties you can faceroll to various degrees.
Again you show your ignorance and obvious lack of understanding. You obviously have never raided at any level above casual or were not capable of understanding your class' mechanics to perform at a high enough level to get into a raid group. There are tons of decisions to be made as many skills are situation based. The wrong selection, and you can wipe a raid. You may begin with a rotation, but the quickly changes based on the situations that arise.
The rotations you posted are no more complicated than the individual rotations in EQ2, and don't even seem to require coordinating rotations on the group or raid level to maximize DPS.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Originally posted by Bladestrom Oh dear, less analysis and more fan me thinks.
Typical WOW rotations are fairly self-evident regarding the game's combat depth. That page leaves out boss-specific and teammate-specific factors that further alter the perfect rotation for any given fight.
So there's a certain objective certainty to the depth of WOW's combat, and thus far nobody has been able to show a MMORPG with superior combat decision depth (by showing evidence in the form of a guide or video.)
I don't really consider myself a fan of anything really. I measure games by depth and interesting decisions. If another MMORPG came along which was better at that than WOW, I'd drop WOW in an instant. My only loyalty is to the game offering the best gameplay.
As you said yourself, you have your perfect rotations, theres 0 decisions in that.
Any skill based PvP is more decision heavy than your perfect rotation.
And, since top end raiding is probably THE least popular thing in WoW (and always have been, not just in WoW, in any MMO that had raiding), its not best gameplay. Since in lower difficulties you can faceroll to various degrees.
Again you show your ignorance and obvious lack of understanding. You obviously have never raided at any level above casual or were not capable of understanding your class' mechanics to perform at a high enough level to get into a raid group. There are tons of decisions to be made as many skills are situation based. The wrong selection, and you can wipe a raid. You may begin with a rotation, but the quickly changes based on the situations that arise.
Oh, i agree completely, the worse you play the more "decisions" you have to make. Seems that you are quite familiar with that.
You again make the point that most unskilled PUGs are pinnacle of MMOs. And best "gameplay" you can get.
That's my point for a perfect fight the goal (taking dos as most common role in thee types of games) is to perfect a rotation to give 95%+ uptime with a high eneough spell count to reach a target dps, your class has a 'perfect rotation' that you have in muscle memory, the goal is to adapt the rotation the minimal amount per fight to achieve as close to a perfect result as possible.
How does it play in reality, you spam you rotation until the lead calls wipe and yoh repeat this 20 tones a night.
In comparison in horizontal style fights, you wipe, you react to how you wiped by swapping in a skill or different weapon, you decide to grab aggro and kite/cc a bit to alleviate pressure, you switch to a buffing or healing role, you switch to plate for different Passives and do on and do forth.
Re balancing the latter can't be balanced, far too many variables. Re the former, the developers balance to x rdps taking into account boss mechanics, that's it.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
They should be relatively balanced. The game being imbalanced in PvP for example is fun only if your class is the OP FOTM one. But what if your class sucks ass and gets raped by pretty much any other class given same gear/skill?
What if you're a DPS class but you push only 60% DPS from the top dog class at that time? How would you guarantee a raid place?
No.
There has to be relative balance, not rotating OP classes like almost all MMOs do.
I agree with you OP but in the context that MMO PvP is an old dinosaur that needs to be put down.
As the gaming industry gets older and more popular, more and more niche genres and titles are emerging. There are simply better genres out there for competitive players looking for a human challenge. MOBAs, OCGs, and Survival games have just blown up over the last few years to go along with the classic FPS titles.
If I was to ask an objective non-bias gamer what the best player vs player titles are out there, how long do you think it would be before that player got to an MMO? LoL, Dota2, CSGO, SC2, HS, DayZ, H1Z1, WoT, Smite, HotS, and those are just PC titles.
The only true form of PvP that MMOs do better than any other is the DAoC massive war-style battle arena but really do they do it better than the other genres or have the other genres just not tried to emulate it yet? Really we've only had 1 attempt at a massive war style game outside of classic MMOs and that was PlanetSide. Perhaps, the technology isn't there yet because both GW2 and ESO have massive lag issues with their grand style conquest.
That's my opinion anyway. I think MMOs would be a lot better off if they dropped PvP entirely and focused on PvE.
The problem is that if you drop PvP, all of a sudden you're left with only that boring ass raiding at endgame. PvP is actually quite fun in some MMOs, e.g. WOW. I really enjoyed PvPing in WoW from the horrible imbalanced PvP of Vanilla....I mean World of Roguecraft through the much more competitive focused arenas of TBC all the way to the later expansions where there are tons of battlegrounds, arenas and dueling. I loved the world PvP in classic WoW and the dueling was always a blast.
So yes PvP does have a place in MMOs. GW1 had an amazing PvP system which I would aruge requires a lot more skill than a lot of the games you mentioned and it was pretty much balanced. And it's not like games like Dota or LoL are balanced. I play a lot of Dota 2 and that game is so unbalanced when you are not playing 5 man cap mode premade, it's ridiculous.
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As you said yourself, you have your perfect rotations, theres 0 decisions in that.
Any skill based PvP is more decision heavy than your perfect rotation.
And, since top end raiding is probably THE least popular thing in WoW (and always have been, not just in WoW, in any MMO that had raiding), its not best gameplay. Since in lower difficulties you can faceroll to various degrees.
There is always a perfect set of choices for perfect play.
There's a perfect choice at any given moment in tic-tac-toe.
There's a perfect choice at any given moment in chess.
The same is true of PVE and of PVP.
Game depth measures how difficult it is to achieve mastery. It measures how difficult it is to know the perfect choice at any given moment in a particular game.
The rotation I provided is clearly filled with opportunities to fail, even before pointing out that WOW's bosses are deliberately designed to disrupt the standard rotation, forcing players to scramble to figure out the new set of optimal choices. Teammates' choices are another dynamic factor, the simplest example being that if your optimal rotation changes when two mobs are grouped for cleaves then you're going to want to dynamically switch things up relative to where your tank teammates are dragging mobs.
Raiding's popularity isn't really a factor. Blade was claiming my comments were made as a fan, and weren't objective, and I've shown how that's clearly not the case.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Quirhid Both styles can be balanecd. Again, don't be ridiculous.
Vertical is constantly unbalanced because it constantly fights against its own balance with power gains, we have known and seen this for many many years, this is old news, again not ridiculous, common knowledge to actual game players. And again I didn't say horizontal cannot be balanced, it can, but doesn't have to. learn to read rather than play post combat.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Any game with player competition needs balance. Period. Doesn't matter if it's PvE, PvP, team-based, non team-based, combat driven, or otherwise. When you have any game based around player competition (which nearly all MMOs are), you allow a player's experience to be manipulated by other people. With poor balance it allows players to exploit that and break the game / ruin the fun.
No one wants to play a game where one class is superior to the rest. No one wants to raid in a game where every group only takes the same 3 classes (because they are just better than the rest). No one wants to play a mini game in which one card, or one mount, or one car is basically wins you the game if you use it.
As you said yourself, you have your perfect rotations, theres 0 decisions in that.
Any skill based PvP is more decision heavy than your perfect rotation.
And, since top end raiding is probably THE least popular thing in WoW (and always have been, not just in WoW, in any MMO that had raiding), its not best gameplay. Since in lower difficulties you can faceroll to various degrees.
There is always a perfect set of choices for perfect play.
There's a perfect choice at any given moment in tic-tac-toe.
There's a perfect choice at any given moment in chess.
The same is true of PVE and of PVP.
Game depth measures how difficult it is to achieve mastery. It measures how difficult it is to know the perfect choice at any given moment in a particular game.
The rotation I provided is clearly filled with opportunities to fail, even before pointing out that WOW's bosses are deliberately designed to disrupt the standard rotation, forcing players to scramble to figure out the new set of optimal choices. Teammates' choices are another dynamic factor, the simplest example being that if your optimal rotation changes when two mobs are grouped for cleaves then you're going to want to dynamically switch things up relative to where your tank teammates are dragging mobs.
Raiding's popularity isn't really a factor. Blade was claiming my comments were made as a fan, and weren't objective, and I've shown how that's clearly not the case.
Nonsense. The highly scripted encounters DO NOT change, ever really.
theres no perfect tactic in chess. You WONT win every game by playing "perfect" aka SAME EXACT moves every time you play. Same goes for PvP (at decent level).
ONLY, and ONLY case your claim is true is if your opponent does EXACT SAME moves EVERY game you play. If chess was played like that, it would have died soon after it was invented.
THATS the big hole in your theory about gameplay and game you constantly mention (though it applies to every clone out there). If you define gameplay as you did
the better you (and your fellow companions) play, worse the gameplay
the worse you (...) play better the gameplay.
Now that makes sense....to someone i guess. but thats direct consequence of combat system and encounter design that has to follow that combat system aka dumb AI.
Theres also matter of uber gear, which by your definition, degrades gameplay because you make less and less decisions the better gear you have since you can ignore mechanics more and more and just spam random buttons more and more.
And yes, popularity is measure to quality of gameplay. Since 1 would assume good gameplay=popular, bad=unpopular.
Rotations are worse case of "gameplay" since the less "decisions" you have to make the more successful you are, and you intentionally set up strategy to minimize making decisions and stick to perfect, and perfect is - NO decisions. Which in turn means worst gameplay.
Originally posted by Quirhid Both styles can be balanecd. Again, don't be ridiculous.
Vertical is constantly unbalanced because it constantly fights against its own balance with power gains, we have known and seen this for many many years, this is old news, again not ridiculous, common knowledge to actual game players. And again I didn't say horizontal cannot be balanced, it can, but doesn't have to. learn to read rather than play post combat.
You only need to balance within their tier. A low level character doesn't need to be competitive with a high level character, for example. And every game is better off being balanced. Its just good design.
Originally posted by Bladestrom That's my point for a perfect fight the goal (taking dos as most common role in thee types of games) is to perfect a rotation to give 95%+ uptime with a high eneough spell count to reach a target dps, your class has a 'perfect rotation' that you have in muscle memory, the goal is to adapt the rotation the minimal amount per fight to achieve as close to a perfect result as possible.
How does it play in reality, you spam you rotation until the lead calls wipe and yoh repeat this 20 tones a night.
In comparison in horizontal style fights, you wipe, you react to how you wiped by swapping in a skill or different weapon, you decide to grab aggro and kite/cc a bit to alleviate pressure, you switch to a buffing or healing role, you switch to plate for different Passives and do on and do forth.
Re balancing the latter can't be balanced, far too many variables. Re the former, the developers balance to x rdps taking into account boss mechanics, that's it.
Woops.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Nonsense. The highly scripted encounters DO NOT change, ever really.
theres no perfect tactic in chess. You WONT win every game by playing "perfect" aka SAME EXACT moves every time you play. Same goes for PvP (at decent level).
ONLY, and ONLY case your claim is true is if your opponent does EXACT SAME moves EVERY game you play. If chess was played like that, it would have died soon after it was invented.
THATS the big hole in your theory about gameplay and game you constantly mention (though it applies to every clone out there). If you define gameplay as you did
the better you (and your fellow companions) play, worse the gameplay
the worse you (...) play better the gameplay.
Now that makes sense....to someone i guess. but thats direct consequence of combat system and encounter design that has to follow that combat system aka dumb AI.
Theres also matter of uber gear, which by your definition, degrades gameplay because you make less and less decisions the better gear you have since you can ignore mechanics more and more and just spam random buttons more and more.
And yes, popularity is measure to quality of gameplay. Since 1 would assume good gameplay=popular, bad=unpopular.
Rotations are worse case of "gameplay" since the less "decisions" you have to make the more successful you are, and you intentionally set up strategy to minimize making decisions and stick to perfect, and perfect is - NO decisions. Which in turn means worst gameplay.
No clue what world you live in, but in my world perfect play means perfect play. It doesn't mean severely imperfect play (ie the same moves every game.)
With that in mind, I'll give you a chance to try this post again.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Nonsense. The highly scripted encounters DO NOT change, ever really.
theres no perfect tactic in chess. You WONT win every game by playing "perfect" aka SAME EXACT moves every time you play. Same goes for PvP (at decent level).
ONLY, and ONLY case your claim is true is if your opponent does EXACT SAME moves EVERY game you play. If chess was played like that, it would have died soon after it was invented.
THATS the big hole in your theory about gameplay and game you constantly mention (though it applies to every clone out there). If you define gameplay as you did
the better you (and your fellow companions) play, worse the gameplay
the worse you (...) play better the gameplay.
Now that makes sense....to someone i guess. but thats direct consequence of combat system and encounter design that has to follow that combat system aka dumb AI.
Theres also matter of uber gear, which by your definition, degrades gameplay because you make less and less decisions the better gear you have since you can ignore mechanics more and more and just spam random buttons more and more.
And yes, popularity is measure to quality of gameplay. Since 1 would assume good gameplay=popular, bad=unpopular.
Rotations are worse case of "gameplay" since the less "decisions" you have to make the more successful you are, and you intentionally set up strategy to minimize making decisions and stick to perfect, and perfect is - NO decisions. Which in turn means worst gameplay.
No clue what world you live in, but in my world perfect play means perfect play. It doesn't mean severely imperfect play (ie the same moves every game.)
With that in mind, I'll give you a chance to try this post again.
I live in a world where theres smart AI (chess with other people/Big Blue) and dumb AI like in your standard MMO encounter.
With that in mind, you can clearly see why chess has survived so long and why your standard MMO encounter lasts only few playthroughs after which its just dull geargrind.
I think you slowly but surely start to understand underlaying problems, how they connect with game design and longevity of MMOs and how dumb AI is counter productive to that longevity and how dumb AI is mandated by combat system.
I live in a world where theres smart AI (chess with other people/Big Blue) and dumb AI like in your standard MMO encounter.
With that in mind, you can clearly see why chess has survived so long and why your standard MMO encounter lasts only few playthroughs after which its just dull geargrind.
I think you slowly but surely start to understand underlaying problems, how they connect with game design and longevity of MMOs and how dumb AI is counter productive to that longevity and how dumb AI is mandated by combat system.
No, actually go back through the post with the realization that perfect play means perfect play. Make your previous response with the realization that if your typical rotation wants you to press 1,2,3 and the boss puts a pain zone under your feet, that "playing perfectly" is no longer pressing 1,2,3 but pressing 1, moving out of the fire, and then figuring out what the next best move is (it might be pressing 2,3; it might be that you need the buff 1 gives you and so you have to start over at 1 again.)
The point being that perfect play requires a lot of skill and adaptation and is not even remotely static in a well-designed MMORPG. The perfect choice at any given moment is constantly shifting based on the intricacies of dynamic factors in your rotation, the boss, your environment, and your teammates. These are the factors which combine to make MMORPGs deep games, and when they're missing the game becomes quite boring. They wouldn't be improved via smarter AI.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I live in a world where theres smart AI (chess with other people/Big Blue) and dumb AI like in your standard MMO encounter.
With that in mind, you can clearly see why chess has survived so long and why your standard MMO encounter lasts only few playthroughs after which its just dull geargrind.
I think you slowly but surely start to understand underlaying problems, how they connect with game design and longevity of MMOs and how dumb AI is counter productive to that longevity and how dumb AI is mandated by combat system.
No, actually go back through the post with the realization that perfect play means perfect play. Make your previous response with the realization that if your typical rotation wants you to press 1,2,3 and the boss puts a pain zone under your feet, that "playing perfectly" is no longer pressing 1,2,3 but pressing 1, moving out of the fire, and then figuring out what the next best move is (it might be pressing 2,3; it might be that you need the buff 1 gives you and so you have to start over at 1 again.)
The point being that perfect play requires a lot of skill and adaptation and is not even remotely static in a well-designed MMORPG. The perfect choice at any given moment is constantly shifting based on the intricacies of dynamic factors in your rotation, the boss, your environment, and your teammates. These are the factors which combine to make MMORPGs deep games, and when they're missing the game becomes quite boring. They wouldn't be improved via smarter AI.
OMG, that boss is scripted to put "pain zone". Its chess where opponent does EXACT SAME moves EVERY game. The only decisions stem from YOU making MISTAKES. You describe BAD players as AWESOME gameplay and GOOD players as WORST gameplay.
Were back to the rubiks cube. There is the PERFECT way to solve rubiks cube EVERY TIME and the only way you get to make decisions is if you DEVIATE from that perfect way (aka screw it up) until you get back to that perfect way. Rubiks cube doesnt get more challenging or have more depth just because you screwed up. It just means youre not very good at it and tend do screw up. The more "interesting" it gets the more you screw up.
OMG, that boss is scripted to put "pain zone". Its chess where opponent does EXACT SAME moves EVERY game. The only decisions stem from YOU making MISTAKES. You describe BAD players as AWESOME gameplay and GOOD players as WORST gameplay.
Were back to the rubiks cube. There is the PERFECT way to solve rubiks cube EVERY TIME and the only way you get to make decisions is if you DEVIATE from that perfect way (aka screw it up) until you get back to that perfect way. Rubiks cube doesnt get more challenging or have more depth just because you screwed up. It just means youre not very good at it and tend do screw up. The more "interesting" it gets the more you screw up.
You can be in denial all you want.
Yes, that's how game depth works: the easier it is to be bad, the better it is for gameplay.
Tic-tac-toe is extremely easy to be perfect, which makes for a lousy short-lived game.
Chess and WOW make it easy to be bad, which makes for interesting longer-lived games.
"The only decisions stem from...mistakes" is nonsense. What do you think a mistake is? It's obviously a decision. (A bad one.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Chess is dynamic, every move is calculated based on you strategy v tactics v the strategy and tactics of your opponent, thd oponent nau vhange tactics and strategy at any time -that's exciting. Wow is like playing a cheap chess program where the strategy is identical every game, the tactics are identical, and the program allways reacts identically to your moves. Learn those moves and you win every time.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom Chess is dynamic, every move is calculated based on you strategy v tactics v the strategy and tactics of your opponent, thd oponent nau vhange tactics and strategy at any time -that's exciting. Wow is like playing a cheap chess program where the strategy is identical every game, the tactics are identical, and the program allways reacts identically to your moves. Learn those moves and you win every time.
WOW is a puzzle game where you're usually facing a fresh puzzle (a new boss) that you haven't yet mastered. (Because once your group masters it, it collects the loot and quickly ascends to other fights which they haven't mastered yet.)
The fight still is dynamic. The actions of your teammates, the RNG of the boss' abilities, and any RNG associated with your class rotation all mean that optimal play is different in basically every single attempt on a boss. Bosses typically don't demand perfect play, but you still need enough team members being good enough at making these decisions to overcome each boss' mechanic.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
OMG, that boss is scripted to put "pain zone". Its chess where opponent does EXACT SAME moves EVERY game. The only decisions stem from YOU making MISTAKES. You describe BAD players as AWESOME gameplay and GOOD players as WORST gameplay.
Were back to the rubiks cube. There is the PERFECT way to solve rubiks cube EVERY TIME and the only way you get to make decisions is if you DEVIATE from that perfect way (aka screw it up) until you get back to that perfect way. Rubiks cube doesnt get more challenging or have more depth just because you screwed up. It just means youre not very good at it and tend do screw up. The more "interesting" it gets the more you screw up.
You can be in denial all you want.
Yes, that's how game depth works: the easier it is to be bad, the better it is for gameplay.
Tic-tac-toe is extremely easy to be perfect, which makes for a lousy short-lived game.
Chess and WOW make it easy to be bad, which makes for interesting longer-lived games.
"The only decisions stem from...mistakes" is nonsense. What do you think a mistake is? It's obviously a decision. (A bad one.)
really? you decided to be bad just to have good gameplay?
Please. Im sure your fellow players are thrilled when you intentionally screw up just to "have good gameplay"
Originally posted by Bladestrom Chess is dynamic, every move is calculated based on you strategy v tactics v the strategy and tactics of your opponent, thd oponent nau vhange tactics and strategy at any time -that's exciting. Wow is like playing a cheap chess program where the strategy is identical every game, the tactics are identical, and the program allways reacts identically to your moves. Learn those moves and you win every time.
WOW is a puzzle game where you're usually facing a fresh puzzle (a new boss) that you haven't yet mastered. (Because once your group masters it, it collects the loot and quickly ascends to other fights which they haven't mastered yet.)
The fight still is dynamic. The actions of your teammates, the RNG of the boss' abilities, and any RNG associated with your class rotation all mean that optimal play is different in basically every single attempt on a boss. Bosses typically don't demand perfect play, but you still need enough team members being good enough at making these decisions to overcome each boss' mechanic.
I guess by "quickly" you mean 16 months with no new content.
Unless youre fed new content you repeat same coreographed fights over and over and over again. Ruining gameplay even more because of uber gear.
RNG of boss abilites and RNG of your class rotation?
theres only one optimal way to do boss. thats what optimal means. optimal also means NO decisions whatsoever. Boss doesnt change because you screwed up, it just means you screwed up. It doesnt became harder and smarter just because you screwed up and play badly. Boss is CONSTANT. And youll have MOST success if you are CONSTANT.
Its EXACTLY SAME boss every time you face it with EXACTLY SAME script. optimal way of doing the boss is EXACTLY SAME every time you go in and your rotation is EXACTLY SAME for very long periods of time.
really? you decided to be bad just to have good gameplay?
Please. Im sure your fellow players are thrilled when you intentionally screw up just to "have good gameplay"
As i said, you can be in denial all you want.
Are you even reading these posts? Nobody is deliberately playing badly. They're playing badly because the game makes it difficult to play perfectly. Which means most players are still learning, and thus they make mistakes.
A game which doesn't deliberately make perfect play difficult is a game like tic-tac-toe: easily mastered and quickly uninteresting. Deep games by their nature cause imperfect play to be frequent. And that's what makes them interesting.
I have no clue what you think I'm in denial about. I've been calmly explaining these things to you the entire time.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
really? you decided to be bad just to have good gameplay?
Please. Im sure your fellow players are thrilled when you intentionally screw up just to "have good gameplay"
As i said, you can be in denial all you want.
Are you even reading these posts? Nobody is deliberately playing badly. They're playing badly because the game makes it difficult to play perfectly. Which means most players are still learning, and thus they make mistakes.
A game which doesn't deliberately make perfect play difficult is a game like tic-tac-toe: easily mastered and quickly uninteresting. Deep games by their nature cause imperfect play to be frequent. And that's what makes them interesting.
I have no clue what you think I'm in denial about. I've been calmly explaining these things to you the entire time.
Comments
Again you show your ignorance and obvious lack of understanding. You obviously have never raided at any level above casual or were not capable of understanding your class' mechanics to perform at a high enough level to get into a raid group. There are tons of decisions to be made as many skills are situation based. The wrong selection, and you can wipe a raid. You may begin with a rotation, but the quickly changes based on the situations that arise.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
I feel it should be situational. If that sword and board can close to within melee range, he should obliterate the mage in one swing. If a thief can get behind either of them, a backstab should take care of them, but let him be seen first and he's a dead duck.
The rotations you posted are no more complicated than the individual rotations in EQ2, and don't even seem to require coordinating rotations on the group or raid level to maximize DPS.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Oh, i agree completely, the worse you play the more "decisions" you have to make. Seems that you are quite familiar with that.
You again make the point that most unskilled PUGs are pinnacle of MMOs. And best "gameplay" you can get.
How does it play in reality, you spam you rotation until the lead calls wipe and yoh repeat this 20 tones a night.
In comparison in horizontal style fights, you wipe, you react to how you wiped by swapping in a skill or different weapon, you decide to grab aggro and kite/cc a bit to alleviate pressure, you switch to a buffing or healing role, you switch to plate for different Passives and do on and do forth.
Re balancing the latter can't be balanced, far too many variables. Re the former, the developers balance to x rdps taking into account boss mechanics, that's it.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
They should be relatively balanced. The game being imbalanced in PvP for example is fun only if your class is the OP FOTM one. But what if your class sucks ass and gets raped by pretty much any other class given same gear/skill?
What if you're a DPS class but you push only 60% DPS from the top dog class at that time? How would you guarantee a raid place?
No.
There has to be relative balance, not rotating OP classes like almost all MMOs do.
The problem is that if you drop PvP, all of a sudden you're left with only that boring ass raiding at endgame. PvP is actually quite fun in some MMOs, e.g. WOW. I really enjoyed PvPing in WoW from the horrible imbalanced PvP of Vanilla....I mean World of Roguecraft through the much more competitive focused arenas of TBC all the way to the later expansions where there are tons of battlegrounds, arenas and dueling. I loved the world PvP in classic WoW and the dueling was always a blast.
So yes PvP does have a place in MMOs. GW1 had an amazing PvP system which I would aruge requires a lot more skill than a lot of the games you mentioned and it was pretty much balanced. And it's not like games like Dota or LoL are balanced. I play a lot of Dota 2 and that game is so unbalanced when you are not playing 5 man cap mode premade, it's ridiculous.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
There is always a perfect set of choices for perfect play.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Vertical is constantly unbalanced because it constantly fights against its own balance with power gains, we have known and seen this for many many years, this is old news, again not ridiculous, common knowledge to actual game players. And again I didn't say horizontal cannot be balanced, it can, but doesn't have to. learn to read rather than play post combat.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Any game with player competition needs balance. Period. Doesn't matter if it's PvE, PvP, team-based, non team-based, combat driven, or otherwise. When you have any game based around player competition (which nearly all MMOs are), you allow a player's experience to be manipulated by other people. With poor balance it allows players to exploit that and break the game / ruin the fun.
No one wants to play a game where one class is superior to the rest. No one wants to raid in a game where every group only takes the same 3 classes (because they are just better than the rest). No one wants to play a mini game in which one card, or one mount, or one car is basically wins you the game if you use it.
Balance is pretty important for a good reason.
Nonsense. The highly scripted encounters DO NOT change, ever really.
theres no perfect tactic in chess. You WONT win every game by playing "perfect" aka SAME EXACT moves every time you play. Same goes for PvP (at decent level).
ONLY, and ONLY case your claim is true is if your opponent does EXACT SAME moves EVERY game you play. If chess was played like that, it would have died soon after it was invented.
THATS the big hole in your theory about gameplay and game you constantly mention (though it applies to every clone out there). If you define gameplay as you did
the better you (and your fellow companions) play, worse the gameplay
the worse you (...) play better the gameplay.
Now that makes sense....to someone i guess. but thats direct consequence of combat system and encounter design that has to follow that combat system aka dumb AI.
Theres also matter of uber gear, which by your definition, degrades gameplay because you make less and less decisions the better gear you have since you can ignore mechanics more and more and just spam random buttons more and more.
And yes, popularity is measure to quality of gameplay. Since 1 would assume good gameplay=popular, bad=unpopular.
Rotations are worse case of "gameplay" since the less "decisions" you have to make the more successful you are, and you intentionally set up strategy to minimize making decisions and stick to perfect, and perfect is - NO decisions. Which in turn means worst gameplay.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
No clue what world you live in, but in my world perfect play means perfect play. It doesn't mean severely imperfect play (ie the same moves every game.)
With that in mind, I'll give you a chance to try this post again.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I live in a world where theres smart AI (chess with other people/Big Blue) and dumb AI like in your standard MMO encounter.
With that in mind, you can clearly see why chess has survived so long and why your standard MMO encounter lasts only few playthroughs after which its just dull geargrind.
I think you slowly but surely start to understand underlaying problems, how they connect with game design and longevity of MMOs and how dumb AI is counter productive to that longevity and how dumb AI is mandated by combat system.
No, actually go back through the post with the realization that perfect play means perfect play. Make your previous response with the realization that if your typical rotation wants you to press 1,2,3 and the boss puts a pain zone under your feet, that "playing perfectly" is no longer pressing 1,2,3 but pressing 1, moving out of the fire, and then figuring out what the next best move is (it might be pressing 2,3; it might be that you need the buff 1 gives you and so you have to start over at 1 again.)
The point being that perfect play requires a lot of skill and adaptation and is not even remotely static in a well-designed MMORPG. The perfect choice at any given moment is constantly shifting based on the intricacies of dynamic factors in your rotation, the boss, your environment, and your teammates. These are the factors which combine to make MMORPGs deep games, and when they're missing the game becomes quite boring. They wouldn't be improved via smarter AI.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
OMG, that boss is scripted to put "pain zone". Its chess where opponent does EXACT SAME moves EVERY game. The only decisions stem from YOU making MISTAKES. You describe BAD players as AWESOME gameplay and GOOD players as WORST gameplay.
Were back to the rubiks cube. There is the PERFECT way to solve rubiks cube EVERY TIME and the only way you get to make decisions is if you DEVIATE from that perfect way (aka screw it up) until you get back to that perfect way. Rubiks cube doesnt get more challenging or have more depth just because you screwed up. It just means youre not very good at it and tend do screw up. The more "interesting" it gets the more you screw up.
You can be in denial all you want.
Yes, that's how game depth works: the easier it is to be bad, the better it is for gameplay.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
WOW is a puzzle game where you're usually facing a fresh puzzle (a new boss) that you haven't yet mastered. (Because once your group masters it, it collects the loot and quickly ascends to other fights which they haven't mastered yet.)
The fight still is dynamic. The actions of your teammates, the RNG of the boss' abilities, and any RNG associated with your class rotation all mean that optimal play is different in basically every single attempt on a boss. Bosses typically don't demand perfect play, but you still need enough team members being good enough at making these decisions to overcome each boss' mechanic.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
really? you decided to be bad just to have good gameplay?
Please. Im sure your fellow players are thrilled when you intentionally screw up just to "have good gameplay"
As i said, you can be in denial all you want.
I guess by "quickly" you mean 16 months with no new content.
Unless youre fed new content you repeat same coreographed fights over and over and over again. Ruining gameplay even more because of uber gear.
RNG of boss abilites and RNG of your class rotation?
theres only one optimal way to do boss. thats what optimal means. optimal also means NO decisions whatsoever. Boss doesnt change because you screwed up, it just means you screwed up. It doesnt became harder and smarter just because you screwed up and play badly. Boss is CONSTANT. And youll have MOST success if you are CONSTANT.
Its EXACTLY SAME boss every time you face it with EXACTLY SAME script. optimal way of doing the boss is EXACTLY SAME every time you go in and your rotation is EXACTLY SAME for very long periods of time.
Are you even reading these posts? Nobody is deliberately playing badly. They're playing badly because the game makes it difficult to play perfectly. Which means most players are still learning, and thus they make mistakes.
A game which doesn't deliberately make perfect play difficult is a game like tic-tac-toe: easily mastered and quickly uninteresting. Deep games by their nature cause imperfect play to be frequent. And that's what makes them interesting.
I have no clue what you think I'm in denial about. I've been calmly explaining these things to you the entire time.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It's like talking to a brick wall right? LOL