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[Column] General: No Shame in Paying to Game
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
I don’t want to rehash the same arguments about free-to-play that I have had since 2007, but it’s safe to say that even though most MMOs and many other games are now free at some level, players still feel a strange need to apologize for supporting gaming. I have worked in community as well, and the same attitude seems to apply to players who feel that developers are somehow the enemy or, at least, not to be trusted.
Read more of Beau Hindman's A Casual, Cornered - No Shame in Paying to Game.
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Comments
You like to "Call BS" quite a lot.
Well, I call BS on this whole article.
Way too much generalizing (ie certain behaviour is appearently limited to "kids"). And making up problems and stating "facts" that barely exists, ie being ashamed of having bought fluff stuff.
Once again, that's the level of this site's articles and news nowadays.
Pathetic.
Yes, Yes we are.
All die, so die well.
"supporting gaming" is not an accurate phrase to use,the problem is supporting games that are unfinished,full of KNOWN bugs,meaning the developer simply doesn't care they just want your money and of course dubious efforts by MANY developers.
I will use an analogy that is of course not game related but it carries the same premise.Would it be correct to support buying from an entity that is dubious,like borderline to illegal kind of dubious all the way down to stolen goods?
There is of course a huge variant between consumers,some can spot dubious to borderline illegal and some simply buy blindly.How many posts have we seen from people who handed over free money that wish they never did it?
So ya it is NOT even close to being about supporting gaming,i think 100% of gamer's would agree that supporting straight shooting developers is 100% fine,including myself.However when you see a developer say "give us your money FIRST"it already starts out as not even close to FAIR and is very dubious.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
" I was on the Game On podcast recently and Ryan, the panel’s resident hardcore min-maxer, begrudgingly admitted to purchasing World of Warcraft’s “sparkle pony” as though he had just admitted to being caught in a “gentlemen’s club” at 2:00 p.m."
I think he was more worried about his masculinity getting challenged than about spending money on the microtransaction. :P
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
I hate collector's editions and cash shops because it takes items that could make it into the game and instead is given away for money. Buying these items have nothing to do with supporting the game or the developer, its to give money back to the publisher.
I absolutely hate the sparkle pony and the xt pet, the sparkle pony because 10% of the population bought it, and the xt pet because of the constant sound in dalaran. I haven't played wow for years, but I completely hate what they represent in gaming.
If you wish to support a game, I suggest you to become a positive figure in the game's community, that means more than throwing money at the publisher.
Not really. I've met and seen some who pretty much go "Hurr durr, everyone that pays for games is a moron. I get all of mine for free on Pirate Bay. Often on release day, while you idiots pay $60 for some game. Haha losers!"
They are the kind of people that make me applaud a developer when they pull a move like making a game only playable online (like Diablo 3 and SimCity did), because I know those douchebags will have to wait an eternity before getting their greedy hands on it, or they'll be forced to give in and cough up the money to buy the game.
I've also seen plenty of players who believe everything should be completely free, and who scream P2W at the drop of a hat.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Great minds.
And I'll miss that magnificent bastard. R.I.P Tywin Lannister!
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Sounds like an apologist article for cash grab DLC structures and the ever growing Cash Shop that seems to infect even full price games. And even full price games with a sub. I long suspect that the production cost of games has simply gone up, but publishers and devs are afraid to just come right out at tell gamers that a AAA game needs to cost 80-100, they fear the backlash.
So instead the nickel and dime the rest out of people with DLC schemes and cash shops.
This 1000% Since there are all but a handful of P2P games even in existence now, I find it funny how the F2P shaming still exists, cuz you know people are playing them.
Crazkanuk
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"Supportive gaming" is another term for nickle and diming people to death out of greed. It isn't about feeling guilty for buying something from a store. I have no problem paying for things, but I do have a problem with being nickle and dimed to death.
Let me to it this way... at a hotel a place that only gives you a mattress is called a hostel. I would NEVER stay in a hostel. Not only do you not have your own room increasing the chance of being violated in some way and decreasing your personal security, but you have to pay for things like soap, a towel, sheets on your bed, and more. That's called nickle and diming people to death just so they can have the stay that they should have had in the first place. I would rather pay 5 times the amount and have all of that included by going to a motel or hotel where the locks on the doors and windows increase my security.
Gamer shame? What gamer shame? Its more about game creators theft.
I think it's more like going to a hotel and demanding that room service and every snack should be 100% free, along with internet and every other convenience. Things you don't really need, but you want them anyway, and shame on the hotel if they don't give it all for free.
Mind you, it depends on the game in question. No doubt some fit the hostel example better than the hotel one. But they're not all the same.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
That's because that's exactly what it is.
Exactly.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Except thats what the f2p players want. They want the whole game to be free, and then to be nickle and dimed to death for things like armor, and people like this actually defend it saying that's a better model than paying more money to get everything in the game.
To liken it back to the hotel... You will have to likely pay for food (though some include breakfast), but you will have access to the pool and hot tub, receive housekeeping (if you want it), get supplies like soap and towels and sheets for free. Most hotels even include the internet nowadays.
Let me put it this way... my husband and I try to go to Dragon Con every year. There's a hotel about two blocks from the Marriott that's newly renovated, includes breakfast (its a really good breakfast with bacon, ham, eggs, waffles and more, as much as you can eat) and the internet, and a pool, be able to use the elevator instead of stairs, all in the price plus taxes. I'd rather pay their regular rate of $139 (its usually $249 during Dragon Con) than stay at a hostel just because it might be cheaper. And they don't offer both hostel and hotel accommodations either. They are a hotel and stand on what they offer. We wouldn't ever stay anywhere else unless we have no choice, though the Hilton was nice since we had easy access to the gaming, but we still had to stand in line 45 minutes at the elevator to go up to our room if we wanted a break.
I don't have a problem with paying for what I really want. I do have a problem with being nickle and dimed to death for absolutely everything.
No, that's not nickel and diming.
Your stay at a motel or hotel also has things like soap, towel, sheets and "more" already included/taken account of, in the price of your room. One of the ways they figure out room rates is to break down how much it costs to stock and maintain each room as well as the square footage of the establishment, amenities, etc . It's just that at a hostel those costs are transparent. Especially since the cost of such a hostel is a fraction of what a motel and especially a Hotel, will cost.
They could just add all those things to one flat rate and you would never know. Just like a motel or hotel.
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You have an odd way of thinking how hotels work. Hotel rates are based on the things you said but they are also based on greed. Most break rates for hotels are somewhere around $27 and $30 a night. It's possible that it is higher but unlikely. The owner of the previous hotel that I worked at considered the break rate to be $39 a night per room but he's wrong because he added the cost of the mortgage into that when it's supposed to be something that is separate and not normally considered part of the break rate. The actual break rate was somewhere around $32 a night. The break rate is the minimum amount a night a hotel needs to run including wages, costs for supplies, and things like electricity and water.
Yes, its true, hostels require less but they also offer alot less, and the fact that you have to pay for those extras separately is nickle and diming you. They do it on purpose. Do you really think it costs $5 for that towel? Highly unlikely. I can tell you that to purchase the towels at the last hotel that I worked at (I was the AGM) was $1 per towel. The cost to wash it amounts to about 50 cents. So if you are paying $3 or even $5 for that towel, they are doing it because they are making a profit on it
But there is more. All of the websites that you book with, except for the individual hotel website, charge money to the hotel. So... let's say the break rate for the hotel is $39 like the owner of my last hotel liked to think it is, and you are charged $59 a night on say Expedia, Expedia is charging the hotel anywhere from 15% on that reservation (those are for just allowing the hotel to use the site to sell themselves and you will pay the hotel directly not expedia) up to 30% (for reservations where Expedia takes the payment). Usually 30% is saved for the higher end hotels like the Ritz, and most other hotels are 25%. Let's say it's an average hotel so its 25%, that makes the commission the hotel pays to expedia $14.75. So it now becomes 59-30-14.75. That means the hotel made a profit of $14.25 on your stay for that night. And if you use some of the big boxes, like Holiday Inn for example, they also charge money for each reservation to the hotel because you may be part of the franchise but they still want to make more on you, and Holiday Inn requires that all bookings go through them, not the hotel itself. Usually its somewhere around $5 or $10 but you can see what it would do to a hotel. That's why Holiday Inn prices are usually so high. Of course, you're offered more if you stay with them than most hotels as well.
That's how hotels work. People think they are being robbed but they really aren't unless you are paying five times that. If you pay $300 a night at a 2 star hotel, you are probably being robbed, unless its a special event and they have raised their rates to match everyone else selling as a 2 star hotel at that time.
Also, the cheaper the rate, the more likely the hotel is to cut corners and do things like not clean the bedspreads daily. Personally, I try to never pay less than $69 a night for a hotel because I know the quality it will bring. Usually $59 is ok but not steller. Less than that, you're asking for trouble.
Now a hostel is something different. If you are going to end up paying that much because you're being charged for everything, including a pillow, why not go to one that you can actually count on being relatively safe at instead?
There are still hotels that charge for everything, though things like the internet and breakfast being included in the rate is becoming much more common.
I still maintain that it is wrong to nickle and dime people to death. Charging for absolutely everything is wrong, when one lump sum makes things easier, and brings up the quality for the people you claim to value. I really really recommend against staying at any hotel that says the rates are $39 or $49 a night and especially caution against a hostel.
The same philosophy can be applied to gaming very easily. The f2p games are the hostels. And given what I know of hostels, that's not a good thing.
I loathe the articles on here that talk about gamers rather than games. It's arrogant and preachy and has no place. Your role is not to reprogramme us. I am not sure why this site keeps on publishing pieces that cover the cultural behaviours of gamers instead of actual news on games.
Saying that, statements such as, "Gaming has never been cheaper, of higher quality, and more accessible. It still needs to go much farther in some areas, of course, but it’s much better than it was 10 years ago" deserve some kind of discussion. I'm not sure how such a subjective point of view can be presented as fact with a straight face. I would argue myself that games are not 'better' now or of 'higher quality' in any area other than graphics (the least important area IMO).
And, yeah, show me that you earn your in game rewards by learning and participating and simply getting good and you will get my respect as a player. Show me that all you can do is buy a glowing horse from a shop and, tbh, I will think you're a fool. So by all means feel ashamed if what other's think bothers you at all.
If it doesn't, well, more power to you. Enjoy your purchased in game reward and enjoy propping up a damaging revenue model.
So weird. There is literally nothing in that article I can take at face value. Thats a first for me.
Your comment precisely illustrates exactly why some people are made to feel shame for buying something they want from a cash shop. Snobbish, elitist gamers who act like being a good gamer and buying a shiny horse are mutually exclusive. They are not, and even if they were, you haven't figured it out that not all gamers play for the same reasons. Not all gamers play games to beat the last raid dungeon while naked so they can be legends on Twitch. Some people actually play games for fun, and having a shiny horse can make it more fun for them. If you think someone is a fool for buying something they would like to have that they couldn't otherwise get, you only make yourself look like a fool for having such a narrow, intolerant view.
I spent over $32 on GW2 gems this month (fully expanded my bank,...). And the only reason I am ashamed is I am on a very limited income these days -- but people spend as much on adding HBO and ESPN to their cable monthly without blinking. Whatevs.
I think Beau is spot on on this one. If you think he's generalizing, well duh, he disclaims that. But you must not spend a scrap of time on the forums here or anywhere else if you think he's not onto something.
The only thing he's not doing right as a journalist, for the detractors above, is doing what the game industry reporters at Forbes would do and call this "trend analysis."
Pack up your high horse and ride home. You have no idea what content is about. This is an opinion and analysis piece and presents itself as such. If you want hard reporting, go to Gamasutra, ffs. This is a grown up fanzine, and most articles try to preserve the *tone* of by-fans-for-fans. That's a niche and a style choice, a way of building affinity with an audience. Distance and formality are not requirements of journalistic quality.
Some of the respected journalists of recent years include Hunter S. Thompson and Calvin Trillin, neither of which would have maintained a stick up a readers butt (maybe Thompson, but let's not go there).
Sports journalism, of which games journalism is the emerging red headed stepchild, isn't known for tone consistency either. You can go to the racing form, or screaming jockey fans in jods with mikes.
Part of game journalism growing up is losing its own shamers, which folks like Beau have difficulty calling BS on themselves. So I will do it for him and all the others.
Your ego is larger than your discernment. Is that intellectual enough a translation of "call BS" for you?
Buying stuff from the store isn't always about supporting a game, even though in some rare occasions it is, most cases it is not.
With games that offer so much for free, like Path of Exile or Rift, I actually feel guilty for not spending more. I buy stuff because they are always using that money to make stuff better and not just to make more fluff crap for people to buy.
However those games are few and far between. What a store usually does to a game is
a) making something inconvenient so they can make money off of convenience items.
b) focus of new content often becomes making more stuff to buy rather than more stuff to do.
While there are a few exceptions that go against the flow, the model tends to change the direction of game development from,
a) Make the game more fun and make more stuff for people to do to keep players engaged so that you can create revenue from sales and subs based on the quality of the game.
to
b) Keep players spending money. Always have something in the store they can't resist. It is okay if players quit *after spending a bunch of money* as long as they can maintain the throughput.
That's why I tend to give my money to the developers that fall into (a), and ignore the money grabbers that fall into (b)
I think most players would beg to differ on the "higher quality and offer more" idea that this author is pushing. The only thing that's better than in the past is the graphics and we all know it. What the developers and publishers want is for us to just accept that. The thing is, gamers won't just accept that. Not anymore. Its nothing to do with gamer shaming, it's more like developer and publisher shaming. People want better game play, graphics aren't really that big a deal as evidenced by the popularity of games like Minecraft (which is about a primitive as you can get without going back to the 1980's). And yet we are continually handed better graphics will lackluster innovation and lackluster game play as though we should be happy with that.
No one cares if someone bought that sparkle pony, but they DO care if you have to buy things like armor from the store in order to be competitive. I spent at least $100 on fluff items for sims 3, and now I don't even play it. It's not about the fluff items, it's the pay to win that's the problem. I should have access to a full game on release.
EA lost millions in refunds because of what they did to the Sims 4, and now the price has crashed almost everywhere because they couldn't be bothered to have things in the game that the players considered essential to make it a full game (things like basements). Yep, its silly and useless but its part of the game, and it made players angry to think they paid $70 for sims 4 when it was obvious the game was only half done. Since that time, they've had to release almost all the things that were missing when the game was originally released for free to get the players to buy the game (toddlers are still missing though and probably won't be added now that the players are coming back).
I'm tired of being told "be happy with what you have", "don't shame players for buying to win the game on the in game market", "you should be grateful for what you have", "oh we may add housing at some point, we will see" (then we get housing with hooks which is lazy crafting and throwing the players a bone to chew on), and more.
Games are not higher quality and they are offering less, not more. We all know it.
Interesting article.
I don't think it's "kids" who want everything for free. It's a good percentage of gamers in general, and I even assume it's more adults than kids, because adults put higher value on their money, and therefore feel that saving it is important, and "wasting" it is bad.
I think that F2P, bundles and deep sales have done quite a bit of damage to gaming's value. Sure, they also help sustain gaming (thanks to "whales" and collectors), but for a lot of people knowing that they can get yesteryear's AAA titles for $5 on sales or a bunch of indies for $1 in a bundle, the thought of paying $60 or even $30 for a game turns their mind immediately to all the reasons they might not want the game at this price.
There are many excuses and justifications, but basically there's a lot less reason to pay full price for a game than there was ten years ago.
Like Jessica Cook, I track my game purchases. It's not to shame myself, it's not because I spend inordinate sums of money on them, it's because I buy a lot more games than I play, and that's true for a lot of people. The value of a game for me is virtually zero, because if I stopped paying for games now, I'd still have enough games to last me a lifetime (and I mean games I think I'd enjoy playing, not the many bundle games I don't intend to touch).
In the end, I hope that enough people continue to spend significant amounts of money on gaming to keep it alive. If you like an MMO, and want it to continue to live, spend money on it, and don't be ashamed, be proud.