I'll give you that there's no meaningful or interesting PVE character progression. It's your par for the course dungeon token grind or raids. The fact of the matter is that every single game in the last so many years is set up the same way, so I don't know what you expected?
That being said, there are lots of little things on the side to do that are quite fun. Triple triad is a blast, for instance. The crafting and gathering (to a lesser extent) is very fun and dynamic.
So when every other game does endgame progression basically the same, but this one has more interesting side activities....I would call that more interesting overall. Not dynamic PVE content by any means....but again, what DOES have that? Because honestly that's what I would want to play.
I really wish someone would tell me what counts as meaningful or interesting PvE character progression.
I'm wishing the same.
Like a specific example? That's tough. I'm no game designer, but what I do know is that running the same dungeons 100x in order to gear up after every patch is not dynamic.
It's easily accessible, but not dynamic.
I hate to tell you this, but not being a game designer isn't an excuse except for being lazy. You want something? How are they supposed to create something people want if they can't even say what they want. They can come up with ideas through specific feedback but blanket statements of "running dungeons 100x times to gear up" tells them nothing. What else are you supposed to do? What else do you want to do (and no, anything else is not an answer)? How does it work in an MMO setting?
Seriously, how exactly do you expect to get best gear if not run a dungeon or do raids? Those are the hardest content - the ones with the most work and involve working with others. Putting the best gear in, let's say, treasure hunting does nothing for the player in terms of difficulty.
Welp. You can level crafting do fates for atma for weps do maps moogle mail, beast tribe for end game gear currency, hunts that give end game currncy as well, and fishing is it's own beast. All with it's own stories and everything. Also you can PvP and do Frontlines for end game currency too.
So NO. You do NOT have to do the same dungeon 100x to get gear LMAO.
Soon we'll get 10 more levels and 50+ hours of gameplay.
It's how YOU play the game, that makes the game fun or not.
All of your options provide sub-par gear compared to mine. Try again.
"It's not meaningful or interesting unless it raises my combat parameters."
A classic yet none the less flawed comment.
It's not progression unless it raises my combat parameters. You DO realize we are talking strictly PvE here right?
Im a level 8 post moogle delivery person. That's progression without combat. Weird huh.
Considering that the vast majority of the time when people refer to PvE they are referring to an activity that involves combat....I would say yes.
You are simply wrong then; PvE is much more than that. There is no reason why the term should be limited to account only something so narrow. Therefore you are completely mistaken if you think raising one's combat parameters is the only meaningful PvE activity.
What raising one's combat parameters even does to be considered "meaningful" is up for the debate. Unless you raise the parameters to help win the hardest raids it is largely pointless. And once you win said raids raising the parameters even further would be as meaningful as buying a miniature Crystal Tower in your mansion.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Anyhow, sorry OP. Didn't mean to derail the thread, just respond to someone's valid point they made (however bad the execution).
Im looking forward to the new classes and new story quests the most. The hardest part will be deciding if I want to swap one of the new jobs for a current role!
Dark Knight seems intriguing, though I have to say I'm a little disappointed that they went the same route as every other mmo with an entropy-based tank (though it will definitely be nice to have another tank with different mechanics)
Machinist looks like fun but for me it will all boil down to the pet mechanics. I didn't like SMNs very much, but ill definitely be giving it a try.
Astrologian seems like a healer version of ffxi's corsair, so it has my interest as well.
Considering that the vast majority of the time when people refer to PvE they are referring to an activity that involves combat....I would say yes.
You are simply wrong then; PvE is much more than that. There is no reason why the term should be limited to account only something so narrow. Therefore you are completely mistaken if you think raising one's combat parameters is the only meaningful PvE activity.
What raising one's combat parameters even does to be considered "meaningful" is up for the debate. Unless you raise the parameters to help win the hardest raids it is largely pointless. And once you win said raids raising the parameters even further would be as meaningful as buying a miniature Crystal Tower in your mansion.
Let me know the next time someone posts and refers to crafting, gathering, chocobo racing, etc as PvE content. As I said above, I'm not going to derail this thread any more, it's already been too much.
I'm looking forward the most to the new lore system for gathering classes. And yes I do consider gathering as pve content. Player versus environment. Does not need to be specific to combat. Same with PvP. Player versus player means more than killing another player. It is a competition between players. I consider chocobo racing a form of pvp as well as playing the market.
I'm looking forward the most to the new lore system for gathering classes. And yes I do consider gathering as pve content. Player versus environment. Does not need to be specific to combat. Same with PvP. Player versus player means more than killing another player. It is a competition between players. I consider chocobo racing a form of pvp as well as playing the market.
Okay, but how do you make PvE combat more meaningful?
I'm looking forward the most to the new lore system for gathering classes. And yes I do consider gathering as pve content. Player versus environment. Does not need to be specific to combat. Same with PvP. Player versus player means more than killing another player. It is a competition between players. I consider chocobo racing a form of pvp as well as playing the market.
Okay, but how do you make PvE combat more meaningful?
Isnt that up to the individual? What's meaningful to you may not be meaningful to some other peeps.
Back on topic.
Yes, very excited for expansion. New jobs (can's wait for Dark Knight), air ship content that will be expanded each patch, flying mounts with much larger areas, 10 more levels with new skills, a whole new original primal, Alexandra Raid, specialized crafting, building your own airship, and so much more. Definitely hyped.
I'm looking forward the most to the new lore system for gathering classes. And yes I do consider gathering as pve content. Player versus environment. Does not need to be specific to combat. Same with PvP. Player versus player means more than killing another player. It is a competition between players. I consider chocobo racing a form of pvp as well as playing the market.
Okay, but how do you make PvE combat more meaningful?
Oh my god dude. How about playing the way you want to. Want to make it meaningful for you? Try grouping with friends. Try anything. I have something for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bijbF3gkNk
Im a level 8 post moogle delivery person. That's progression without combat. Weird huh.
Im a level 50 Carpenter. That's progression without combat.
It's also not PvE content.
Really don't know what point you're trying to make.
Well, sure it is. A carpenter needs wood and a Botanist gets said wood. Player Versus ENVIRONMENT.
Maybe you should look up the term PvE.
I think you need to look it up more and stop trying to swing it to favor your arguement. PvE is not oh anything other than PVP fits into this category. It is used to identify the realm status, PvE always meant you are fighting against non-playable enemies, PvP meant you run the risk of playing against other combatants like you.
Gathering and Crafting are not based PvE in PVP realms you can still do all those things, if anything it would be PAE realm as it is acquiring or assisting. The Versus implied something adverse and considering you are not competing against the environmental wood and tin ore you argument is a mute point.
Im a level 8 post moogle delivery person. That's progression without combat. Weird huh.
Im a level 50 Carpenter. That's progression without combat.
It's also not PvE content.
Really don't know what point you're trying to make.
Well, sure it is. A carpenter needs wood and a Botanist gets said wood. Player Versus ENVIRONMENT.
Maybe you should look up the term PvE.
I think you need to look it up more and stop trying to swing it to favor your arguement. PvE is not oh anything other than PVP fits into this category. It is used to identify the realm status, PvE always meant you are fighting against non-playable enemies, PvP meant you run the risk of playing against other combatants like you.
Gathering and Crafting are not based PvE in PVP realms you can still do all those things, if anything it would be PAE realm as it is acquiring or assisting. The Versus implied something adverse and considering you are not competing against the environmental wood and tin ore you argument is a mute point.
Originally posted by Foomerang Already preordered. I love the variety of content in this game. I like that you can avoid any and all token grinds and still have tons of deep and meaningful character progression.
Like what?PS: Don't say crafting and gathering, lmao.
Oh yeah, you're that guy who says he's done everything but didn't know what any end game items are called and won't reveal your super secret character heh.Still trying to convince people I see
You have not answered my question. Mind sharing the tons of deep and meaningful character progression?
I have already answered you question in previous threads and even a private message. At this point, you either accept the fact we have differing opinions or move on. Your credibility is suspect regarding this game while I have been nothing but transparent with my character info, playstyle,etc.
I am pretty sure other people reading this thread would be interested to hear it too but as usual, you don't have an answer at all. I know this and it's pretty obvious for everyone to see that you evade and start straw man arguments, try to discredit me instead of answering a simple question?
Mind sharing the tons of deep and meaningful character progression?
Sure. 3 star gathering, mastering the market, triple triad collection, chocobo racing and breeding, ixali beast tribe, lucis upgrades, rare plant crossing, 4 star crafting, double mooching for epiq fish, 110 desynthesis rating, getting my house just right, getting rank 8 fc and a perfect battle chocobo. Of course you're going to say you've done all this on random free weekend which is ridiculous. Or your going to say this is not deep meaningful character progression which is your opinion. I have accomplished a lot with my character and that's all that really matters.
None of the things you listed are character progression except crafting and gathering which can be mastered in a week like the rest of the game and you did not even list those.
You know that the things you listed are not character progression but you still insist on it on the grounds of opinion. There is no opinion when it comes to character progression. It either is or is not and the things you listed are not.
Mastering the Market /smh
Anyways, there is no point in arguing with you any more. You have proven to everyone that there is no meaningful character progression so we can end this.
Have Fun!
Oh! Context! Where are you? For one of the lost is judging based on past knowledge, and not experience! The presumption being of them thinking they know one MMORPG because they've played several others! For assuming knowledge is known about a system or game just from reading its name! Allow me -- oh precious context -- to bring information to the world, so that they may be better armed.
"crafting and gathering which can be mastered in a week like the rest of the game and you did not even list those."
This is news to me, considering I've spent almost two years working on my crafters and gatherers (Plural). In fact, even if you "cheat" and find a "sponsor" for crafting, it will still take you approximately (simplified math using the cap limit on leves -- of which you typically have 20 left after every 100 gained) one hundred and thirty three days to master every craft. This is due to levequest acquisition (you do know what a levequest is, right? Unsure since it's been asserted you don't even know end game item names), time limits / other limits as well as other things such as acquiring HQ materials and making HQ items (while also somehow getting HQ equipment -- as gathering and crafting has it's own equipment, storyline, rotations, etc. to master. You need all crafts maxed to cross-class special abilities before progressing into multi-star tiered gear, which need these skill in addition to level 4 material melds... which costs around 400k a piece, and new equipment also comes out to remeld). It will be twice that if you don't have a friend that will sponsor you (or don't know how to craft HQ items) -- Two Hundred and Sixty-Six days by making items that are traded in for normal quality (again using the simplified math, which doesn't take into account 20 left over leves each craft). Or you may simply go the expensive and direct route (which may take yet longer since you have to acquire millions of gil beforehand) and try to grinding without levequests. Which will be exceedingly expensive in terms of materials, item space (both the materials needed and items as they fill up your space, causing you to figure out a way to relinquish them), crystal shards, etc. To put it frankly, I've hundreds of millions of gil and I still wouldn't do this.
This isn't even counting if you decide to earn the materia and materials yourself by combining your skills and acquiring your own items. Which will apply something called a "Spiritbond" to your items, from whence you may break it down into materia for a chance to get the items you seek (with crafting / gathering items producing crafting and gathering materia). Of which you actually progress your character's gear further, experience the storyline each class has (and yes, crafters and gatherers are treated as a class of their own with gear, story, rotations, cross-classing, progressions, meta, etc).
You may even acquiring 110 item level items from crafting, which is superior to the tome items that are item level 100 before you earn the Sands of Time and or Oils that will upgrade them to 110 through fighting and raiding (with the hardest raids giving 130-135... which is not needed, as the highest requirement for casual content is item level 90.
Then you have desynthesis to work with, which is a whole different ball park altogether and has various intricacies and grinding aspects to it (in addition to inventory space management and crafting items in which to break down once you finally unlock desynthesis as a crafter).
Gather in itself also follows the same timeline as crafting as well as the limits thereof. This is not even counting the new system of crafting / gathering progression (which -- in part -- involve learning the lore of the land on special attunement quests and the collection & acquisition of unique items) that will be present in 3.0 which will allow even more options to progress. Though I've a feeling we're talking about the here and now.
Besides all that, once you get to level 50 in every crafting class, that's when the crafting game just begins. You're not even close to the meta, and you have to learn the market as well as gear yourself up, level desynth, spiritbind items, acquire the top items, meld top items, forbidden meld top items (with 90% chance to lose materia that is worth 500,000 gil each... trying to meld every piece of gear as much as you can -- at least 11 items, five times each... which, again, every one having a 90% chance of failure and losing the materia once you pass a certain threshold). There is a reason why the best crafters make millions each night. It's a time consuming and very expensive process whereby it's exceedingly obvious when someone speaks of it when they have never tried it themselves. You also need to be a crafter to meld.
But let's move past crafting -- which I barely even talked about when considering the full extent of the topic -- and look at gathering a bit more as a whole (though in no way talking a lot about it, as this post will be long enough as is). Besides crafting's meta being a full time job in itself, gathering has several ways to go about things. In addition to several different classes -- Fishing, Mining and Botany. But these are only one part of crafting, as you can even partake in combat to farm materials such as horns, leather, etc. off of enemies using a battle craft (or buying them off of the market). In addition, there are certain conditions of which materials can be acquired. Night time. Raining. Lightning. Day of the month, etc. Also certain conditions that can be triggered. In addition to not only having every gathering profession maxed for cross class skills, but also have the best gear available -- melded to the IVth level once more and using appropriate rotations -- and knowing the rare spawn locations -- to even be able to see, much less have a small chance to gather. Yes, you can even acquire some gatherer / crafter items from running dungeons / doing raids or turning in certain items.
Let's move ahead of the normal progression -- raiding, dungeons, etc. -- which are typical of an MMO -- and speak of other things in that regard (perhaps casually mentioning such later on).
Some sections will likely have a bunch of subsections for the sake of not having hundreds of points. Also not that most of the game's systems are hidding by massive amounts of attunements that take a long time to figure out and unlock (most people don't even know they exist today).
Grand Company Progression: Grand Companies. While someone who hasn't played wouldn't really know what they are, they are essentially an NPC guild that represent their respected City States. The offensive army, as it were. You pick which one you want to join in your journeys, and they offer different perspectives in a lot of ways, with their leaders offering different dialog, gear, etc. To acquire said gear, you participate in a variety of events throughout the world -- PvP, Dungeons, Fates and generally help out NPCs that need it. In addition, you work towards new ranks within the group, which each new rank opening new systems, items and things to do. You need to be a Second Lieutenant before they allow you to join another and to buy a room and or housing in the housing districts. This oft includes hard, group bases tasks. Their currency also allows you to buy your first chocobo, chocobo barding, early (and by early, I mean fresh level 50 in all crafting classes) crafting gear, aesthetics (also starting gear for fresh level 50s), and a host of different things. In addition to pledging your sword to PvP, and having access to The Hunt, as will be described in greater detail further down the line. Many people have yet to achieve Lieutenant in game, despite it being requires for housing and rooms. It's something -- like most of the game -- you have to work for before unlocking. When unlocking a new rank, members of your free company begin address you as such.
Free Company Progression: Free company Progression includes a myriad of things such as increasing their ranks as well as managing various things that ranks provide (but still cost a lot of money). These include Chocobo Stables (we'll touch on later), Housing (later), Personal Rooms (later), Chocobo Training, Gardening, Decorating, working towards perks, crafting facilities and various other activities. In addition, they will be able to construct airships as a collective with their crafting facilities in which they may travel to unknown locations and fight one time bosses or find one time treasure. If a FC has already been to an island, it may be found barren (heavensward feature). Buying a house can cost upwards of 5,000,000 to 150,000,000 gil depending on the time, with it depreciating the more a lot is left open. Once you own a Free Company Personal Room, you will lose it if you leave the free company.
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Chocobo Progression: Chocobos are a big part of the game. There are many different features, which I will actually break down further. In fact, you could say that Chocobos are a big part of progression for your character, as they are your life long companion and actual battle partner. You can summon them at any time with Gysahl greens. In essence they are a much improved version of your battle companion from FFXI, and can be summoned at any time, can be equipped, leveled, picked abilities for, etc. For all intents and purposes, they are an extension of your character.
Your first Chocobo: "My Little Chocobo" -- Acquired by becoming level 20, joining a Grand Company and buying a chocobo issuance liscense for 2,000 Grand Company Seals. They can be recolored, renamed, equipped with items, etc. at this point.
Your Battle Chocobo: "My Fiesty Little Chocobo" -- At level 30 you are able to teach them how to fight, and they will act as your guardian whenever you feed them their favorite green (make sure to keep them on hand!). Your chocobo will gain experience with you as you fight, and progress towards the Weekly Log (later) will also help with this. In addition to them being tied to many, many achievements. They are able to be given attacker, tank and healer abilities. They level up and have certain ability points to spend. You are only able to pick ten until you break their level limit via Grand Company Housing Stables and Training / Feeding. They earn new equipment and looks through this and through other activities in the world (boss fights, Grand Company, crafting, etc.)
Chocobo Training: Not quite the same as having your chocobo out and fighting alongside them. Training is actually a montage of scenes you initiate once you stable your chocobo and feed them. There is a cutscene of them training, and if you leave them in their stables -- while being well fed -- they will be trained over time in which to break past the rank 10 boundaries mentioned above and be able to learn more than the initial 10 skills they earned through fighting or whatnot.
Chocobo Feeding: There are many different types of chocobo food that increase different stats while they are active, increase experience gain, and even change color. It is a game in itself to try and get your chocobo the color you want, and many, many color options as a whole. They need to be fed at the stables for this, which is a Grand Company Feature so long as the Grand Company worked for max Rank together and has bought a chocobo stable, keeping it clean. They (the stables) must remain clean, and all members are able to clean it.
Chocobo Raising: While the above can be considered raising, there is another system involved with this as a whole. You raise your chocobos in Gold Saucer -- not your battle companion, but a new one -- for the purpose of racing. Boosting stats, working on stats, trying to go for specific conditions and for the next generation of chocobo racing once you leveled that one into retirement from the circuit.
Chocobo Breeding: Once you retire your previous chocobo, you can get access to an improved one. It will have different conditions, be stronger than the previous, and have (hopefully) better stats, abilities, conditions. Like in FFXI, chocobos are classified as male and female and you are asked which gender you want before you get your first racing chocobo. From there, you go back to the raising portion as well as partaking in:
Chocobo Races: Much like Mario Cart, you race around various tracks. There are weather and day time conditions such as sunny, night, foggy, raining, storm, etc. Each chocobo has a preferred time of day and weather, in addition to different abilities. They are able to run over boxes in the race to randomly get an item to be used against other players. They gain levels and ranks through participation -- as well as you getting Gold Saucer credits (later). It's really fun progressing your chocobo and racing them against friends. You can even have small tournaments by all grouping up and playing together to see whose chocobo is champion.
Chocobo Appearance: Barding. Coloring. There are many different looks you can give your chocobo. Many suits of armor and ways of acquiring such. Time consuming and or expensive in most case. Simple and easy in others. Full plated barding, for example can be purchased only for 8,000 Grand Company seals. While some raid bosses or Primals drop some. Perhaps even crafters -- in their extensive meta -- will be able to make some.
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Gold Saucer Progression: Speaking of Chocobo Races, we will be remiss if we didn't speak of Gold Saucer and what it brought to the table. Again, there are too many features here, so let's break it all down. As a whole, whenever I've went to Gold Saucer, I've focused on Chocobo Racing and Tripe Triad. So I'm no expert on Gold Saucer.
Chocobo Racing: We spoke of this above.
Triple Triad: The card game that started in FFVIII. You go around the world playing card games with random NPCs and earning cards from them by being victorious. There are many cards to collect and gather, with legendary cards being the hardest to acquire. In addition to giving Gold Saucer Credits, there is a Player Tournament whereby prizes are handed out. Scoreboards and progression models to see who is the best, etc. Achievements to be had, tough NPCs to be conquered, hours of fun with friends as you show off your cards (with limitations on powerful card use). In addition to learning the dozen or so rulesets that you can pick or are random depending on the area of the world. It is a big deal to a lot of people to try and collect all of the cards and participate in the tournament, and you learn something new constantly by playing against other players. Progression with the collection of new cards and tournament victories -- making a name for yourself -- is great fun. All cards are bound to your character and progress them in the art of Triple Triad.
Mini-games: Many mini games such as basket ball, test your strength, hand claws, etc. to earn yourself more Gold Saucer points in which to buy special and unique items that are intended to be for aesthetics. Mastering these can be frustrating, as they look -- and are -- so easy that it's equally easy to mess up over... and over again.
Amusement Park Wide Events: Special events that randomly kick off in a similar looking -- but vastly different -- way to fates in the outside world. These include such things as mimic dancing (or simon says in a way) as well as trying to stay on top of a hill while everything tries to knock you off (just some examples).
Lottery: Weekly lottery for millions of gold saucer points, or a daily one for up to 10,000. The scratch game requires thought and probability. Something to look forward to! Watching those numbers spin! Excitement, if nothing else.
Other Activities: They are spread throughout.
All of these provide for you Amusement Park tokens in which to acquire new items, equipment, aesthetics, mounts, cards, crafting items, rare items, etc. Which increase the things your character has at their desposal using other systems within the game.
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Dungeon / Attunement Progression: Attunements! This game is littered with them. With many features unlocked unless you have completed "x", and "x" isn't revealed. There is just "?????????" in its place. Sure, you could try and look it up online, but traveling the world and talking to each NPC could get this done as well. If there is one thing this game does well, is not hold your hand past the slow start. I've played the game since it came out, and I have not unlocked more than half of the systems in it. It's mainly because there are certain sections of it -- story and crafting included -- that take most of my free time. Free level 50? Well, there are ten dozen quests that are available to you -- all leading to new side stories or main stories or dungeons or raids or systems like Treasure Hunts and Bounty Hunts and the like. Hard modes of dungeons -- which are changed completely and not just harder mobs. The layout, the bosses, the mechanics, the mobs... even the entire look of the place. In addition to the drops (including pets, which sell for millions). Also, the music, which is absolutely amazing. In addition to each hard mode having its own storyline (and in some cases, even extreme mode / savage). Unlocking the ability to do more things is a main part of the game, and gives you more options to do things and acquire more power. They are not handed to you in most cases. This is probably why many people feel accomplished at the slightest thing, in my cases. Because heck, having patience and actually wiping from time to time isn't exactly hallmarks of a modern MMO or even acceptable to newer MMO players these days. Many would even call it bad design by today's standards. Though its a feeling lost that is finally reclaimed for someone such as myself, who has been playing MMOs since 1998. To add to that, the antique system / tome system / rare material system / mount system / pet system etc that go hand in hand with many things including the dungeons.
The Hunt: The Hunt! Waiting for that S rank to appear in Bahamut's "Cave" -- oft times having to wait for days or weeks for it to spawn. The conditions of weather, the time of day, fulfilling requirements, the collection of shards, the killing of mobs. Having to fish up a certain mob during a certain hour of an appointed day of the new moon. Or tackling "A" rank hunts that appear every hour or so (it seems) across the world. Not to mention world bosses such as Behemoth and Odin. These all are reminscent of FFXI days of camping for rares and people form entire linkshells and update websites to monitor these situations. To acquire Seals and tomes and pets, achievements and even Odin's Mantle to acquire incredibly rare sets. There are even set bounties and bounty posters for monster hunting each day and every week that offer gil rewards as well as seals. Both of which can offer glamour (transmog) gear and item levl 100 gear for each of your classes.
Treasure Hunts: Treasure hunts require the purchase of a Treasure Map, acquired by Disciples of the hand as they forage through the land. You acquire a map, decipher it, and it gives you clues as to where to dig in the world. If you manage to find the area -- which has no clues on the actual world -- and dig in it, you will be rewarded for your efforts. Long story short (trying to limit text at this point), the rewards will allow you to purchase powerful items as well.
Beast Man Progression: Beast Man Progression has its own storyline tied to it, as well as a system of "dailies" whereby you can only perform six per day for the tribe. They have unique rewards such as items, cheap materials, mounts and a host of different things if you raise your reputation with them enough. More story will be revealed, the higher the reputation you have. Is this progression? Depends if items that increase strength, cheap materials in which to use to make items and sell, mounts, and generally things that will lead to you becoming stronger is progression. Though everything listed so far does at least that with its own flare.
Story Progression: Story is among the most important factor in this game. By the time you get to -- and beat -- 2.55 you look back and remember all of the things along the way and go "Wow..." From the slow start -- you being a green nobody -- to then scolding new adventurers that look up to you that they have to start from the bottom and experiencing all of the plot twists towards the end. What you thought you knew -- what was in your face, masking what was in the backround and also in your face -- was completely wrong in many cases. Which was culminated in what seemed like 90 minutes of amazing "game of thrones" style cutscenes. Story Progression was so pivotal to this game mainly because of the massive and frequent updates it gave. Three dungeons per patch, battlegrounds, new systems like Gold Saucer, Primal fights, raids, storyline, side story, Hunts, Treasure Hunts, new classes, new race reveals (or new beast men races), beast men quests, Hildibrand Quests, Moogle Quests, PvP, dances, stances, housing, Marriage System, updates to battle systems, maps, Fates, character progression, and the meta for every aspect of the game -- of which crafting and gathering are the most extensive of most any game that currently exists. The titles you earned from doing these story quests -- which most haven't earned yet, as it's too hard for some -- to the constant wiping of new players on current content. You feel... accomplished? When it's all said and done. Laying back in your chair, taking an exasperated yet delighted sigh and going "Yeeeeeees!" once you beat that final boss fight that is mandatory to being the 2.55 story. Then acquiring that title for your character and proudly showing it off.
Side Story Progression: Side stories are amazing in this game! They offer new items, opportunities for items, pets, mounts, etc. and unlock various things for you and your character. Even something as small -- but awesome to some -- as new dances, stances, emotes, etc. that are only acquirable from doing these things and unlocking them on your character. My favorite would have to be Hildibrand. Hilarious comedy, as he was back in 1.0 as well. Light hearted fun that shows a lot of character for the game in general, with new story for him in each major patch. There's also the Moogle Story quests, beast men quests (as mentioned before), "LFR" raid quest stories, etc. In most cases, they don't even require fighting. Or, if they do (in the case of one particular fight in Hildibrand), it's a comical fight whereby you pretty much won't lose. Even dungeons have side stories to them, such as one featured on this very site for being "very dark" whereby several likeable characters died.
Fate Progression: Achievements! Weekly Tasks! Unlocking titles and new items from doing such; acquiring seals to spend on crafting items and or your alt classes (or main class, if it's your first class being leveled). Even storylines being reliant on such. Relic weapons being used to slaughter specific fates to acquire more powers. Encouraging people to go out in the world and help each other with fates. This is ingrained in the mindsets of many players, that all you have to do is ask for help in shout and you will be swarmed by players willing to assist you in taking out a fate (depending on the time of day in some cases, and if there is a rare Hunt that spawned). Becoming a Flame Lord, improving your Grand Company Rank, etc. Which leads into more unlocked content in general, as it's all connected in some way with massive attunement quests and tasks.
Relic Weapon Progression: The acquisition of crafted items, melded materia, finding a legendary smith, partaking in quests, FATES, dungeons, Hard Primal fights, etc. All giving bits and pieces to restore an ancient and withered relic. With each patch they added new ways to improve the item level of your relic. Long, tiresome journeyes that gave weapons of differeing powers and looks with each new transformation. Of people instantly recognizing such and that it likely took a lot of work. Of doing it for every class on the character.
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Combat Progression: Combat Progression! This is about self improvement. Of maxing out all the classes and using cross class skills. Mastering 32 botton rotations, understanding group comps, class weaknesses, class mechanics, etc. Let's take a look at something I wrote with regards to this in the past, rather than have several more paragraphs fill up space: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/6633187#6633187
*****Highly recommend reading the above if a comment is made on this section.*****
If systems are set up in such a way as to require you to constantly be improving yourself, I say that is skill-based mastery and progression. Though I can understand the concept of it there is no way to improve the actual character or get it something it didn't have before, it is not progression. However, you will liekly not be able to get 135 items without such self improvement.
Class System: Leveling every class in game, giving you access to more abilities to be used on your favorite class or with what subclasses work for your advanced job. Added depth of abilities used in conjunction with each other. Such as a Dragoon's Blood for Blood or Invigorate -- giving you a 30% damage increase and restoring 500 TP instantly. Perhaps necessities for melee who want to raid. Increasing your characters power simply by playing the game and leveling up all of your classes. Even without all of the other things, simply logging on, you progress in FFXIV. Gil is also still useful as a whole, unlike other games whereby their currency is pretty much useless.
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Housing Progression: Owning a house is a fairly rare thing in this game -- for most servers. They cost millions to buy, millions to build and millions fo furnish. All of which need to be earned by yourself, which takes a while to carve out your gil making niche or favored ways (of which there are a lot in today's FFXIV). Earning gil is amazingly fun in this game no matter what you do, and can directly impact your character's own power and status in various ways. Including but not limited to buying 110 green items that can be Penta Melded with the best tier four materia (which, again, there is a 90% chance of losing each piece once you cross a threshold... with most costing 300-500k depending on the server). Filling out your expensive mansion with trophies acquired from the hardest content, the most expensive furniture that you earned through the various activities throughout the world, etc. is riveting to a lot of people. It objectively and monetarily increases the worth of the character the house is tied to and the respect / admiration owed to you. And, as the Ul'dahn saying goes, money is power in this game. Granted, though, skill and know how is much more important for the tough things. Especially when you have to learn -- in some cases -- a 32 button rotation. Mastering things yourself -- and not just your character -- becomes a necessity. In addition to the crafting stations, airship construction (future), gardening, chocobo stables, etc. etc. that will soon be mentioned.
Besides costing tens of millions (potentially), Housing allows for extensive customization both outside and inside the buildings. This requires the acquisition of hundreds of pieces of -- of times -- expensive furniture, trophies you acquire from extremely hard fights to show off, items made of rare crafting materials acquired by crafters / gatherers / hunters / raiders / seals... etc. If it is a FC house, you can add up to 512 rooms, chocobo stables, gardening, etc (each of which have their own little end game). You can also add training dummies, crafting stations, etc. etc. There are dozens of each type of items -- many types of beds you can lay on, hot tubs, pictures, seats, tables, chairs, misc. items like books, globes, plates, food, etc. Each time you acquire a rare piece of armor, you are improve your house and you can actually become quite proud of it. Though that is the way with housing systems in MMOs that employ them. In a lot of way, decorating is the end game for a lot of people, and having nothing but rare items could be pretty impressive. After all, the point of progression is achievement, of acquiring things, of mastering them. The rewards are but secondary -- but still there all the same.
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Character Progression: Like having things others do not? You can unlock various things outside of power = progression such as new dances from quests, new idle stances, specific outfits using the glamour system (transmog), pets worth millions that will sit on your shoulder or do tricks, new mounts, titles, housing, housing items, etc. Including but not limited to
The Hunting Log: Not like the Great Hunt, but more so hunting critters around the world for Seals to purchase items as well as massive boosts in Exp. The Sightseeing Log: Self explanatory. Crafting Log: ^ Gathering Log: ^ Fishing Log: ^ (Noting that some fish only appear on some days, under certain weather conditions, etc.) Fish Guide: ^
Challenge Log: Challenges to do on a weekly basis. Including Fates, Dungeons, Chocobo Training, etc.
Gardening & Chocobo: Trying to find out cross plant combinations to get new plants to grow, using said plants to sell or feed your chocobo
Class Levels: Leveling every class to level 50 for access to unique skills (time consuming). Acquiring / earning / making full armor sets and weaponsets for your 20 classes (in addition to your retainer, which will be discussed later). Roulette System: System whereby you get large chunks of experience and gil (especially if you're a tank) and fulfill certain requirements of weekly requirements, relic weapon quests, etc. Not to mention helping others out and potentially getting pet drops worth quite a bit.
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Achievement Progression: Touched on this earlier, but some achievements offer things that directly give your character things. Titles, items of power, bardings, pets, Triple Triad Cards, aesthetics, etc. You get some interesting crafting equipment, or grand company weapons / shields / titles by partaking in the Achievement system. Something to strive for on your spare time, and ever profitable in their own way.
System Unlock Progression: Similar to the Dungeon and Attunement Section, you have to go out in the world and talk to people, take on quests before you unlock the vast majority of systems in game. Even if you are level 50, there is a very good chance you missed it all. Most of your options will be greyed out in the meny (I personally don't like this) to be found out. Which leads into more opportunities to do things and increase your character's power in both experience, items and various other aspects which relate to it. Including but not limited to your chocobo and Free Company.
Glamour: Finding the right transmog -- grinding dungeons, earning gear, going on raids, fighting primals, doing treasure hunts, participating in Bounty Hunts, doing the story, making gil, etc. This is a system that adds value to a lot of games and a lot of people like. Making that perfect Final Fantasy character look. I've spent months in some cases trying to come up with sets taht I really like. Feels great logging into that character and doing the next big thing that comes up -- as there is always something to do or find.
PvP Progression: Arena style or Battleground 8x8x8, 16x16x16, 32x32x32 whereby titles and items of power are given as prize. In addition to unique abilities to use in PvP combat that increase in power with your rank. These have unique looks and are exceptionally powerful in a lot of ways. Ranks are also given out to hardcore PvPers. Though PvP in itself isn't a major focus for Final Fantasy XIV. But it is a fun little distraction at times, and a definite path for advancement.
Trial Progression: Primal. Hard Primal. Extreme Primal. Differing in difficulty, and providing different rewards. Hard gives fairly powerful weapons for alts or first characters, extreme offers opportunites for crafters as well as strong items, mounts, furniture, etc. Farm groups are up all the time for these highly coveted items. It's a goal oriented thing, and you progress to the next stage when complete or acquire it (as well as the potential for weapons, or materials to craft weapons that sell for millions).
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Raiding Progression: The typical form of progression in most games. Able to get 135 items and unlock a lot of story and a few cinematics. As well as misc. things. Not my cup of tea this expansion, will not comment much on it as its your standard thing besides the amazing story and cinematics.
This also includes the "LFR" raiding scene -- which is different from the Binding Coils of Bahamut and has its own storyline and three raids (and whenever I say storyline in this whole post, I mean quests upon quests of story, as well as cutscenes). Ancients - Crystal Tower - World of Darkness. Each with its own items, systems of upgrading items (Sands of Time / Oils of Time) and attunements to pass.
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World Boss Progression: Killing every S rank hunt, farming Odin for his mantle and items and horse, farming other large and rare creatures that only spawn once in a full moon. The achivements, titles, items, mounts, crafting reagents involved. The gathering of people and guilds and the like. The constant wipes of even a zerg of 100 players getting owned by Odin. Always be on the lookout here. Of when the weather turns to "Gloom" in the weather system.
Retainer Progression: Retainers are able to be leveled and sent on mission. Limitations are they are always locked at ten levels below you, until you are level 50. Then they may be leveled up to level 50. They require retainer coins (or ventures) to be sent on missions. They come back and earn experience. You assign classes to your retainers and equip them. You use actual items you make or buy, and need to fit every slot. They do show the weapons and armor in appearance, and the better equipment they have, the better the haul they'll bring back. This is also based on their level. These retainers can bring you back some powerful items, weapons, crafting items, rare furniture, etc. Even do some of the farming / gathering for you in small amounts. You can earn high level gear for them and then equip them, which adds to the need of keeping 20 classes (yours) stocked and managing all your items.
Guildleve and Leve Progression: Unlocking each area's Leve, participating in such with weekly quests or for items / retainer notes (Ventures) to send retainers on quests. Unlocking and completely Guildlevels that rewards experience, teaches you have to play the game, and grants a fair amount of gil.
Patch Progression: With each new patch, there is a new title to be had for the main story (typically), new primal with new item drops, new craftable items and new systems for the crafting meta. Three new dungeons, primals, dozens of side quests, new items of power that can be obtained in various ways (as seen above) and not just by raiding or grinding tomes. New achievements to be had, and improvements to the many new systems of the last patches as they continue support for such. Virtually everything is updated in some way and given a new end game.
Some limited time topics of interest:
Holiday Progression: In game created Holidays for Eorzea in addition to real life holidays named differently. Providing new dances, emotes, items, bardings, pets, outfits, etc. Their own music and unique events. Many of these things can be saved and sold down the line for exceptional amounts as the demand of them increases with new players or those who didn't partake. Usually in the hundreds of thousands, which can then be directed to 110 crafted and melded items.
Marriage System: Very well thought out and executed system that awards little more than giving you the ability to teleport to your spouse. In addition to a brand new mount that isn't available unless you're married. Also, new pets for all the guests, new equipment, achievements, etc. Not too much, but it is an incredibly fun event to take part in and worth mentioning. It ties into what is known as "Immersion" or "Role Play" progression.
What is progression, exactly? How is it defined? Is it so baselessly plain as saying "oh, well... item level this is the only progression!"? It is only black and white to the narrow minded or to the one. Visible progression is all around us. The fact that so many systems exist that you can master and move onto the next, being richer in experience, gil and items for it all. Truth be told, I'm not where close to being ready for the next expansion. Too much to do. It is all meaningful to me. Though each day I get closer to my goals.
In addition, this is just all the stuff off the top of my head (with 95% of them offering a way to give your character more power as well as entertain); there's quite a bit more that's up to the individual to find. I could go into depth about Crafting and gathering -- the myriad of systems involved of it, especially with each one and how they react to the market board... but that would probably be a longer write than what is already here and is from years of experience and working that at a high level within it. But all of this is part of the game's charm and fun, in some ways. Even if I find some aspects of it (the attunements) rather annoying.
In that light, "meaningful" character progression is a term for the individual. Lackluster views of "item power" need not apply (as a general statement) and are, in fact, not at all meaningful to me or what I look for in meaningful progression. Give me the experience, the memories and goals to accomplish that with then award me in some way. Base it around immersion -- as it is -- and when I think of what MMO has the most to do in it, I will think of that. Especially with the huge amount of content and frequent patches given.
Have a good one.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
I'm looking forward the most to the new lore system for gathering classes. And yes I do consider gathering as pve content. Player versus environment. Does not need to be specific to combat. Same with PvP. Player versus player means more than killing another player. It is a competition between players. I consider chocobo racing a form of pvp as well as playing the market.
Okay, but how do you make PvE combat more meaningful?
Oh my god dude. How about playing the way you want to. Want to make it meaningful for you? Try grouping with friends. Try anything. I have something for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bijbF3gkNk
...Did you even pay attention to who you were replying to? I'm not against anything in this game, but I always see how the game needs more "meaningful" PvE combat so I'm curious how people who feel that way would do it without completely changing the game.
Anyway, I'm always thinking about how things could improve or change so I remain curious about it. I mean, the closest I've come up with is having a "gear set challenge" where if you get the full gear set of say, Tier 1 of Coil (first five turns), you can challenge Ifrit Hard Mode solo and the challenge changes based on your role, or a level of hunts that are turn 5/turn 9/turn 13 difficulty, or some dungeons with puzzles that you can enter with any party and what puzzles you use to unlock parts can only be done by certain races (like say, you enter with a Midlander, a Seeker of the Sun, and a Duskwright - there's two totems that have to be pressed when you go through these doors and you have to do it in a time limit, the doors will only open for a Midlander and Duskwright, but if you go back with a Midlander, Duskwright, and Duskwright the doors need two Duskwrights) and have them have rare monsters that drop rare crafting mats or something.
In that light, "meaningful" character progression is a term for the individual. Lackluster views of "item power" need not apply (as a general statement) and are, in fact, not at all meaningful to me or what I look for in meaningful progression. Give me the experience, the memories and goals to accomplish that with then award me in some way. Base it around immersion -- as it is -- and when I think of what MMO has the most to do in it, I will think of that. Especially with the huge amount of content and frequent patches given.
Have a good one.
This and everything you said plus much more. Some people just don't get it. This game is fantastic and Heavensward is gonna' shine bright and all the haters gonna' hate.
I'm looking forward the most to the new lore system for gathering classes. And yes I do consider gathering as pve content. Player versus environment. Does not need to be specific to combat. Same with PvP. Player versus player means more than killing another player. It is a competition between players. I consider chocobo racing a form of pvp as well as playing the market.
Okay, but how do you make PvE combat more meaningful?
Oh my god dude. How about playing the way you want to. Want to make it meaningful for you? Try grouping with friends. Try anything. I have something for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bijbF3gkNk
...Did you even pay attention to who you were replying to? I'm not against anything in this game, but I always see how the game needs more "meaningful" PvE combat so I'm curious how people who feel that way would do it without completely changing the game.
Anyway, I'm always thinking about how things could improve or change so I remain curious about it. I mean, the closest I've come up with is having a "gear set challenge" where if you get the full gear set of say, Tier 1 of Coil (first five turns), you can challenge Ifrit Hard Mode solo and the challenge changes based on your role, or a level of hunts that are turn 5/turn 9/turn 13 difficulty, or some dungeons with puzzles that you can enter with any party and what puzzles you use to unlock parts can only be done by certain races (like say, you enter with a Midlander, a Seeker of the Sun, and a Duskwright - there's two totems that have to be pressed when you go through these doors and you have to do it in a time limit, the doors will only open for a Midlander and Duskwright, but if you go back with a Midlander, Duskwright, and Duskwright the doors need two Duskwrights) and have them have rare monsters that drop rare crafting mats or something.
I think in time we will see that stuff. Were going from walking to flying. Bigger zones. A Gunner class lol. I mean, again, we get 10 more levels coming in Heavensward and its supposed to be 50+ hours of content to fill that 10 levels.
We still don't know EVERYTHING about Heavensward or the majority of new mechanics that is yet to come. A lot of things are changing like Practice Raids and solo dungeons and shit like that.
I think what SE is doing is trying to not give us everything all at once. If they did then we would be sitting around going, "Duh, whats next?"
I don't wanna be like that. Be patient and have faith. The game gets better and better, not worse and worse obviously.
I'm looking forward the most to the new lore system for gathering classes. And yes I do consider gathering as pve content. Player versus environment. Does not need to be specific to combat. Same with PvP. Player versus player means more than killing another player. It is a competition between players. I consider chocobo racing a form of pvp as well as playing the market.
Okay, but how do you make PvE combat more meaningful?
Oh my god dude. How about playing the way you want to. Want to make it meaningful for you? Try grouping with friends. Try anything. I have something for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bijbF3gkNk
...Did you even pay attention to who you were replying to? I'm not against anything in this game, but I always see how the game needs more "meaningful" PvE combat so I'm curious how people who feel that way would do it without completely changing the game.
Anyway, I'm always thinking about how things could improve or change so I remain curious about it. I mean, the closest I've come up with is having a "gear set challenge" where if you get the full gear set of say, Tier 1 of Coil (first five turns), you can challenge Ifrit Hard Mode solo and the challenge changes based on your role, or a level of hunts that are turn 5/turn 9/turn 13 difficulty, or some dungeons with puzzles that you can enter with any party and what puzzles you use to unlock parts can only be done by certain races (like say, you enter with a Midlander, a Seeker of the Sun, and a Duskwright - there's two totems that have to be pressed when you go through these doors and you have to do it in a time limit, the doors will only open for a Midlander and Duskwright, but if you go back with a Midlander, Duskwright, and Duskwright the doors need two Duskwrights) and have them have rare monsters that drop rare crafting mats or something.
I think in time we will see that stuff. Were going from walking to flying. Bigger zones. A Gunner class lol. I mean, again, we get 10 more levels coming in Heavensward and its supposed to be 50+ hours of content to fill that 10 levels.
We still don't know EVERYTHING about Heavensward or the majority of new mechanics that is yet to come. A lot of things are changing like Practice Raids and solo dungeons and shit like that.
I think what SE is doing is trying to not give us everything all at once. If they did then we would be sitting around going, "Duh, whats next?"
I don't wanna be like that. Be patient and have faith. The game gets better and better, not worse and worse obviously.
I do but I also believe that SE can't think of everything and sometimes, ideas from the community could be just what they need or want. Yoshi-P's team are only demi-humans, I can't expect them to think of every scenario, every idea. Suggestions and thoughts from the community could get a very welcome introduction to the game.
Although, I do think they need to fix how they do Main Scenario Quests...
I'm looking forward the most to the new lore system for gathering classes. And yes I do consider gathering as pve content. Player versus environment. Does not need to be specific to combat. Same with PvP. Player versus player means more than killing another player. It is a competition between players. I consider chocobo racing a form of pvp as well as playing the market.
Okay, but how do you make PvE combat more meaningful?
Oh my god dude. How about playing the way you want to. Want to make it meaningful for you? Try grouping with friends. Try anything. I have something for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bijbF3gkNk
...Did you even pay attention to who you were replying to? I'm not against anything in this game, but I always see how the game needs more "meaningful" PvE combat so I'm curious how people who feel that way would do it without completely changing the game.
Anyway, I'm always thinking about how things could improve or change so I remain curious about it. I mean, the closest I've come up with is having a "gear set challenge" where if you get the full gear set of say, Tier 1 of Coil (first five turns), you can challenge Ifrit Hard Mode solo and the challenge changes based on your role, or a level of hunts that are turn 5/turn 9/turn 13 difficulty, or some dungeons with puzzles that you can enter with any party and what puzzles you use to unlock parts can only be done by certain races (like say, you enter with a Midlander, a Seeker of the Sun, and a Duskwright - there's two totems that have to be pressed when you go through these doors and you have to do it in a time limit, the doors will only open for a Midlander and Duskwright, but if you go back with a Midlander, Duskwright, and Duskwright the doors need two Duskwrights) and have them have rare monsters that drop rare crafting mats or something.
I think in time we will see that stuff. Were going from walking to flying. Bigger zones. A Gunner class lol. I mean, again, we get 10 more levels coming in Heavensward and its supposed to be 50+ hours of content to fill that 10 levels.
We still don't know EVERYTHING about Heavensward or the majority of new mechanics that is yet to come. A lot of things are changing like Practice Raids and solo dungeons and shit like that.
I think what SE is doing is trying to not give us everything all at once. If they did then we would be sitting around going, "Duh, whats next?"
I don't wanna be like that. Be patient and have faith. The game gets better and better, not worse and worse obviously.
I do but I also believe that SE can't think of everything and sometimes, ideas from the community could be just what they need or want. Yoshi-P's team are only demi-humans, I can't expect them to think of every scenario, every idea. Suggestions and thoughts from the community could get a very welcome introduction to the game.
Although, I do think they need to fix how they do Main Scenario Quests...
Personally to me, there is ALWAYS something to do in this game. Whether you're at the casino, or you're leveling alts. There is ALWAYS something to be done. Even Atma upgrades. Still more content to me then World of Warcraft.
I was looking forward to this but flying mounts destroy games. Even limited to the new expansion areas, in just a few months time the zones will feel dead even when there are other players in them. They are seeking to bring bigger zones as well, just exacerbating the problem. I've been crossing my fingers hoping they realized their mistake and made them just flying taxis, but with the release just around the corner my hopes are completely dashed.
I remember when WoW: TBC came out, I thought flying seemed like a cool idea. By the time I was raiding, all zones were completely void of players. I would just never see people outside of cities and raid stones. It just plain sucks. With Blizzard going on record about the problems flying caused and their regret at ever implementing it, I don't know how SE could make the same mistake. It makes me feel like they are just looking for the quick expac financial boost and not caring for the future of the game.
Thank you for the video. It unfortunately did not make me less concerned, but it certainly showed how lovely the new area looked. The point someone made in the other thread about teleporting not stopping people from being in the field does make me think, though.
I still really wish they had not gone for flying mounts. Flying taxis would have been great, all the benefits of flying mounts with none of the negatives. I would be happy to find that I am incorrect and was worried for nothing, and we will find out soon enough.
Comments
Im a level 8 post moogle delivery person. That's progression without combat. Weird huh.
Im a level 50 Carpenter. That's progression without combat.
It's also not PvE content.
Really don't know what point you're trying to make.
Considering that the vast majority of the time when people refer to PvE they are referring to an activity that involves combat....I would say yes.
You are simply wrong then; PvE is much more than that. There is no reason why the term should be limited to account only something so narrow. Therefore you are completely mistaken if you think raising one's combat parameters is the only meaningful PvE activity.
What raising one's combat parameters even does to be considered "meaningful" is up for the debate. Unless you raise the parameters to help win the hardest raids it is largely pointless. And once you win said raids raising the parameters even further would be as meaningful as buying a miniature Crystal Tower in your mansion.
Anyhow, sorry OP. Didn't mean to derail the thread, just respond to someone's valid point they made (however bad the execution).
Im looking forward to the new classes and new story quests the most. The hardest part will be deciding if I want to swap one of the new jobs for a current role!
Dark Knight seems intriguing, though I have to say I'm a little disappointed that they went the same route as every other mmo with an entropy-based tank (though it will definitely be nice to have another tank with different mechanics)
Machinist looks like fun but for me it will all boil down to the pet mechanics. I didn't like SMNs very much, but ill definitely be giving it a try.
Astrologian seems like a healer version of ffxi's corsair, so it has my interest as well.
Let me know the next time someone posts and refers to crafting, gathering, chocobo racing, etc as PvE content. As I said above, I'm not going to derail this thread any more, it's already been too much.
I'm looking forward the most to the new lore system for gathering classes. And yes I do consider gathering as pve content. Player versus environment. Does not need to be specific to combat. Same with PvP. Player versus player means more than killing another player. It is a competition between players. I consider chocobo racing a form of pvp as well as playing the market.
I am going to bypass the pages of arguments that ultimately amount to nothing, and add my own little bit of nothing.
I'm quite excited. I want to try the new jobs.
Well, sure it is. A carpenter needs wood and a Botanist gets said wood. Player Versus ENVIRONMENT.
Maybe you should look up the term PvE.
Okay, but how do you make PvE combat more meaningful?
Isnt that up to the individual? What's meaningful to you may not be meaningful to some other peeps.
Back on topic.
Yes, very excited for expansion. New jobs (can's wait for Dark Knight), air ship content that will be expanded each patch, flying mounts with much larger areas, 10 more levels with new skills, a whole new original primal, Alexandra Raid, specialized crafting, building your own airship, and so much more. Definitely hyped.
Oh my god dude. How about playing the way you want to. Want to make it meaningful for you? Try grouping with friends. Try anything. I have something for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bijbF3gkNk
I think you need to look it up more and stop trying to swing it to favor your arguement. PvE is not oh anything other than PVP fits into this category. It is used to identify the realm status, PvE always meant you are fighting against non-playable enemies, PvP meant you run the risk of playing against other combatants like you.
Gathering and Crafting are not based PvE in PVP realms you can still do all those things, if anything it would be PAE realm as it is acquiring or assisting. The Versus implied something adverse and considering you are not competing against the environmental wood and tin ore you argument is a mute point.
Since when could you craft in PvP? LMAO
your argument is moot bro
Oh! Context! Where are you? For one of the lost is judging based on past knowledge, and not experience! The presumption being of them thinking they know one MMORPG because they've played several others! For assuming knowledge is known about a system or game just from reading its name! Allow me -- oh precious context -- to bring information to the world, so that they may be better armed.
"crafting and gathering which can be mastered in a week like the rest of the game and you did not even list those."
This is news to me, considering I've spent almost two years working on my crafters and gatherers (Plural). In fact, even if you "cheat" and find a "sponsor" for crafting, it will still take you approximately (simplified math using the cap limit on leves -- of which you typically have 20 left after every 100 gained) one hundred and thirty three days to master every craft. This is due to levequest acquisition (you do know what a levequest is, right? Unsure since it's been asserted you don't even know end game item names), time limits / other limits as well as other things such as acquiring HQ materials and making HQ items (while also somehow getting HQ equipment -- as gathering and crafting has it's own equipment, storyline, rotations, etc. to master. You need all crafts maxed to cross-class special abilities before progressing into multi-star tiered gear, which need these skill in addition to level 4 material melds... which costs around 400k a piece, and new equipment also comes out to remeld). It will be twice that if you don't have a friend that will sponsor you (or don't know how to craft HQ items) -- Two Hundred and Sixty-Six days by making items that are traded in for normal quality (again using the simplified math, which doesn't take into account 20 left over leves each craft). Or you may simply go the expensive and direct route (which may take yet longer since you have to acquire millions of gil beforehand) and try to grinding without levequests. Which will be exceedingly expensive in terms of materials, item space (both the materials needed and items as they fill up your space, causing you to figure out a way to relinquish them), crystal shards, etc. To put it frankly, I've hundreds of millions of gil and I still wouldn't do this.
This isn't even counting if you decide to earn the materia and materials yourself by combining your skills and acquiring your own items. Which will apply something called a "Spiritbond" to your items, from whence you may break it down into materia for a chance to get the items you seek (with crafting / gathering items producing crafting and gathering materia). Of which you actually progress your character's gear further, experience the storyline each class has (and yes, crafters and gatherers are treated as a class of their own with gear, story, rotations, cross-classing, progressions, meta, etc).
You may even acquiring 110 item level items from crafting, which is superior to the tome items that are item level 100 before you earn the Sands of Time and or Oils that will upgrade them to 110 through fighting and raiding (with the hardest raids giving 130-135... which is not needed, as the highest requirement for casual content is item level 90.
Then you have desynthesis to work with, which is a whole different ball park altogether and has various intricacies and grinding aspects to it (in addition to inventory space management and crafting items in which to break down once you finally unlock desynthesis as a crafter).
Gather in itself also follows the same timeline as crafting as well as the limits thereof. This is not even counting the new system of crafting / gathering progression (which -- in part -- involve learning the lore of the land on special attunement quests and the collection & acquisition of unique items) that will be present in 3.0 which will allow even more options to progress. Though I've a feeling we're talking about the here and now.
Besides all that, once you get to level 50 in every crafting class, that's when the crafting game just begins. You're not even close to the meta, and you have to learn the market as well as gear yourself up, level desynth, spiritbind items, acquire the top items, meld top items, forbidden meld top items (with 90% chance to lose materia that is worth 500,000 gil each... trying to meld every piece of gear as much as you can -- at least 11 items, five times each... which, again, every one having a 90% chance of failure and losing the materia once you pass a certain threshold). There is a reason why the best crafters make millions each night. It's a time consuming and very expensive process whereby it's exceedingly obvious when someone speaks of it when they have never tried it themselves. You also need to be a crafter to meld.
But let's move past crafting -- which I barely even talked about when considering the full extent of the topic -- and look at gathering a bit more as a whole (though in no way talking a lot about it, as this post will be long enough as is). Besides crafting's meta being a full time job in itself, gathering has several ways to go about things. In addition to several different classes -- Fishing, Mining and Botany. But these are only one part of crafting, as you can even partake in combat to farm materials such as horns, leather, etc. off of enemies using a battle craft (or buying them off of the market). In addition, there are certain conditions of which materials can be acquired. Night time. Raining. Lightning. Day of the month, etc. Also certain conditions that can be triggered. In addition to not only having every gathering profession maxed for cross class skills, but also have the best gear available -- melded to the IVth level once more and using appropriate rotations -- and knowing the rare spawn locations -- to even be able to see, much less have a small chance to gather. Yes, you can even acquire some gatherer / crafter items from running dungeons / doing raids or turning in certain items.
Let's move ahead of the normal progression -- raiding, dungeons, etc. -- which are typical of an MMO -- and speak of other things in that regard (perhaps casually mentioning such later on).
Some sections will likely have a bunch of subsections for the sake of not having hundreds of points. Also not that most of the game's systems are hidding by massive amounts of attunements that take a long time to figure out and unlock (most people don't even know they exist today).
Grand Company Progression: Grand Companies. While someone who hasn't played wouldn't really know what they are, they are essentially an NPC guild that represent their respected City States. The offensive army, as it were. You pick which one you want to join in your journeys, and they offer different perspectives in a lot of ways, with their leaders offering different dialog, gear, etc. To acquire said gear, you participate in a variety of events throughout the world -- PvP, Dungeons, Fates and generally help out NPCs that need it. In addition, you work towards new ranks within the group, which each new rank opening new systems, items and things to do. You need to be a Second Lieutenant before they allow you to join another and to buy a room and or housing in the housing districts. This oft includes hard, group bases tasks. Their currency also allows you to buy your first chocobo, chocobo barding, early (and by early, I mean fresh level 50 in all crafting classes) crafting gear, aesthetics (also starting gear for fresh level 50s), and a host of different things. In addition to pledging your sword to PvP, and having access to The Hunt, as will be described in greater detail further down the line. Many people have yet to achieve Lieutenant in game, despite it being requires for housing and rooms. It's something -- like most of the game -- you have to work for before unlocking. When unlocking a new rank, members of your free company begin address you as such.
Free Company Progression: Free company Progression includes a myriad of things such as increasing their ranks as well as managing various things that ranks provide (but still cost a lot of money). These include Chocobo Stables (we'll touch on later), Housing (later), Personal Rooms (later), Chocobo Training, Gardening, Decorating, working towards perks, crafting facilities and various other activities. In addition, they will be able to construct airships as a collective with their crafting facilities in which they may travel to unknown locations and fight one time bosses or find one time treasure. If a FC has already been to an island, it may be found barren (heavensward feature). Buying a house can cost upwards of 5,000,000 to 150,000,000 gil depending on the time, with it depreciating the more a lot is left open. Once you own a Free Company Personal Room, you will lose it if you leave the free company.
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Chocobo Progression: Chocobos are a big part of the game. There are many different features, which I will actually break down further. In fact, you could say that Chocobos are a big part of progression for your character, as they are your life long companion and actual battle partner. You can summon them at any time with Gysahl greens. In essence they are a much improved version of your battle companion from FFXI, and can be summoned at any time, can be equipped, leveled, picked abilities for, etc. For all intents and purposes, they are an extension of your character.
Your first Chocobo: "My Little Chocobo" -- Acquired by becoming level 20, joining a Grand Company and buying a chocobo issuance liscense for 2,000 Grand Company Seals. They can be recolored, renamed, equipped with items, etc. at this point.
Your Battle Chocobo: "My Fiesty Little Chocobo" -- At level 30 you are able to teach them how to fight, and they will act as your guardian whenever you feed them their favorite green (make sure to keep them on hand!). Your chocobo will gain experience with you as you fight, and progress towards the Weekly Log (later) will also help with this. In addition to them being tied to many, many achievements. They are able to be given attacker, tank and healer abilities. They level up and have certain ability points to spend. You are only able to pick ten until you break their level limit via Grand Company Housing Stables and Training / Feeding. They earn new equipment and looks through this and through other activities in the world (boss fights, Grand Company, crafting, etc.)
Chocobo Training: Not quite the same as having your chocobo out and fighting alongside them. Training is actually a montage of scenes you initiate once you stable your chocobo and feed them. There is a cutscene of them training, and if you leave them in their stables -- while being well fed -- they will be trained over time in which to break past the rank 10 boundaries mentioned above and be able to learn more than the initial 10 skills they earned through fighting or whatnot.
Chocobo Feeding: There are many different types of chocobo food that increase different stats while they are active, increase experience gain, and even change color. It is a game in itself to try and get your chocobo the color you want, and many, many color options as a whole. They need to be fed at the stables for this, which is a Grand Company Feature so long as the Grand Company worked for max Rank together and has bought a chocobo stable, keeping it clean. They (the stables) must remain clean, and all members are able to clean it.
Chocobo Raising: While the above can be considered raising, there is another system involved with this as a whole. You raise your chocobos in Gold Saucer -- not your battle companion, but a new one -- for the purpose of racing. Boosting stats, working on stats, trying to go for specific conditions and for the next generation of chocobo racing once you leveled that one into retirement from the circuit.
Chocobo Breeding: Once you retire your previous chocobo, you can get access to an improved one. It will have different conditions, be stronger than the previous, and have (hopefully) better stats, abilities, conditions. Like in FFXI, chocobos are classified as male and female and you are asked which gender you want before you get your first racing chocobo. From there, you go back to the raising portion as well as partaking in:
Chocobo Races: Much like Mario Cart, you race around various tracks. There are weather and day time conditions such as sunny, night, foggy, raining, storm, etc. Each chocobo has a preferred time of day and weather, in addition to different abilities. They are able to run over boxes in the race to randomly get an item to be used against other players. They gain levels and ranks through participation -- as well as you getting Gold Saucer credits (later). It's really fun progressing your chocobo and racing them against friends. You can even have small tournaments by all grouping up and playing together to see whose chocobo is champion.
Chocobo Appearance: Barding. Coloring. There are many different looks you can give your chocobo. Many suits of armor and ways of acquiring such. Time consuming and or expensive in most case. Simple and easy in others. Full plated barding, for example can be purchased only for 8,000 Grand Company seals. While some raid bosses or Primals drop some. Perhaps even crafters -- in their extensive meta -- will be able to make some.
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Gold Saucer Progression: Speaking of Chocobo Races, we will be remiss if we didn't speak of Gold Saucer and what it brought to the table. Again, there are too many features here, so let's break it all down. As a whole, whenever I've went to Gold Saucer, I've focused on Chocobo Racing and Tripe Triad. So I'm no expert on Gold Saucer.
Chocobo Racing: We spoke of this above.
Triple Triad: The card game that started in FFVIII. You go around the world playing card games with random NPCs and earning cards from them by being victorious. There are many cards to collect and gather, with legendary cards being the hardest to acquire. In addition to giving Gold Saucer Credits, there is a Player Tournament whereby prizes are handed out. Scoreboards and progression models to see who is the best, etc. Achievements to be had, tough NPCs to be conquered, hours of fun with friends as you show off your cards (with limitations on powerful card use). In addition to learning the dozen or so rulesets that you can pick or are random depending on the area of the world. It is a big deal to a lot of people to try and collect all of the cards and participate in the tournament, and you learn something new constantly by playing against other players. Progression with the collection of new cards and tournament victories -- making a name for yourself -- is great fun. All cards are bound to your character and progress them in the art of Triple Triad.
Mini-games: Many mini games such as basket ball, test your strength, hand claws, etc. to earn yourself more Gold Saucer points in which to buy special and unique items that are intended to be for aesthetics. Mastering these can be frustrating, as they look -- and are -- so easy that it's equally easy to mess up over... and over again.
Amusement Park Wide Events: Special events that randomly kick off in a similar looking -- but vastly different -- way to fates in the outside world. These include such things as mimic dancing (or simon says in a way) as well as trying to stay on top of a hill while everything tries to knock you off (just some examples).
Lottery: Weekly lottery for millions of gold saucer points, or a daily one for up to 10,000. The scratch game requires thought and probability. Something to look forward to! Watching those numbers spin! Excitement, if nothing else.
Other Activities: They are spread throughout.
All of these provide for you Amusement Park tokens in which to acquire new items, equipment, aesthetics, mounts, cards, crafting items, rare items, etc. Which increase the things your character has at their desposal using other systems within the game.
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Dungeon / Attunement Progression: Attunements! This game is littered with them. With many features unlocked unless you have completed "x", and "x" isn't revealed. There is just "?????????" in its place. Sure, you could try and look it up online, but traveling the world and talking to each NPC could get this done as well. If there is one thing this game does well, is not hold your hand past the slow start. I've played the game since it came out, and I have not unlocked more than half of the systems in it. It's mainly because there are certain sections of it -- story and crafting included -- that take most of my free time. Free level 50? Well, there are ten dozen quests that are available to you -- all leading to new side stories or main stories or dungeons or raids or systems like Treasure Hunts and Bounty Hunts and the like. Hard modes of dungeons -- which are changed completely and not just harder mobs. The layout, the bosses, the mechanics, the mobs... even the entire look of the place. In addition to the drops (including pets, which sell for millions). Also, the music, which is absolutely amazing. In addition to each hard mode having its own storyline (and in some cases, even extreme mode / savage). Unlocking the ability to do more things is a main part of the game, and gives you more options to do things and acquire more power. They are not handed to you in most cases. This is probably why many people feel accomplished at the slightest thing, in my cases. Because heck, having patience and actually wiping from time to time isn't exactly hallmarks of a modern MMO or even acceptable to newer MMO players these days. Many would even call it bad design by today's standards. Though its a feeling lost that is finally reclaimed for someone such as myself, who has been playing MMOs since 1998. To add to that, the antique system / tome system / rare material system / mount system / pet system etc that go hand in hand with many things including the dungeons.
The Hunt: The Hunt! Waiting for that S rank to appear in Bahamut's "Cave" -- oft times having to wait for days or weeks for it to spawn. The conditions of weather, the time of day, fulfilling requirements, the collection of shards, the killing of mobs. Having to fish up a certain mob during a certain hour of an appointed day of the new moon. Or tackling "A" rank hunts that appear every hour or so (it seems) across the world. Not to mention world bosses such as Behemoth and Odin. These all are reminscent of FFXI days of camping for rares and people form entire linkshells and update websites to monitor these situations. To acquire Seals and tomes and pets, achievements and even Odin's Mantle to acquire incredibly rare sets. There are even set bounties and bounty posters for monster hunting each day and every week that offer gil rewards as well as seals. Both of which can offer glamour (transmog) gear and item levl 100 gear for each of your classes.
Treasure Hunts: Treasure hunts require the purchase of a Treasure Map, acquired by Disciples of the hand as they forage through the land. You acquire a map, decipher it, and it gives you clues as to where to dig in the world. If you manage to find the area -- which has no clues on the actual world -- and dig in it, you will be rewarded for your efforts. Long story short (trying to limit text at this point), the rewards will allow you to purchase powerful items as well.
Beast Man Progression: Beast Man Progression has its own storyline tied to it, as well as a system of "dailies" whereby you can only perform six per day for the tribe. They have unique rewards such as items, cheap materials, mounts and a host of different things if you raise your reputation with them enough. More story will be revealed, the higher the reputation you have. Is this progression? Depends if items that increase strength, cheap materials in which to use to make items and sell, mounts, and generally things that will lead to you becoming stronger is progression. Though everything listed so far does at least that with its own flare.
Story Progression: Story is among the most important factor in this game. By the time you get to -- and beat -- 2.55 you look back and remember all of the things along the way and go "Wow..." From the slow start -- you being a green nobody -- to then scolding new adventurers that look up to you that they have to start from the bottom and experiencing all of the plot twists towards the end. What you thought you knew -- what was in your face, masking what was in the backround and also in your face -- was completely wrong in many cases. Which was culminated in what seemed like 90 minutes of amazing "game of thrones" style cutscenes. Story Progression was so pivotal to this game mainly because of the massive and frequent updates it gave. Three dungeons per patch, battlegrounds, new systems like Gold Saucer, Primal fights, raids, storyline, side story, Hunts, Treasure Hunts, new classes, new race reveals (or new beast men races), beast men quests, Hildibrand Quests, Moogle Quests, PvP, dances, stances, housing, Marriage System, updates to battle systems, maps, Fates, character progression, and the meta for every aspect of the game -- of which crafting and gathering are the most extensive of most any game that currently exists. The titles you earned from doing these story quests -- which most haven't earned yet, as it's too hard for some -- to the constant wiping of new players on current content. You feel... accomplished? When it's all said and done. Laying back in your chair, taking an exasperated yet delighted sigh and going "Yeeeeeees!" once you beat that final boss fight that is mandatory to being the 2.55 story. Then acquiring that title for your character and proudly showing it off.
Side Story Progression: Side stories are amazing in this game! They offer new items, opportunities for items, pets, mounts, etc. and unlock various things for you and your character. Even something as small -- but awesome to some -- as new dances, stances, emotes, etc. that are only acquirable from doing these things and unlocking them on your character. My favorite would have to be Hildibrand. Hilarious comedy, as he was back in 1.0 as well. Light hearted fun that shows a lot of character for the game in general, with new story for him in each major patch. There's also the Moogle Story quests, beast men quests (as mentioned before), "LFR" raid quest stories, etc. In most cases, they don't even require fighting. Or, if they do (in the case of one particular fight in Hildibrand), it's a comical fight whereby you pretty much won't lose. Even dungeons have side stories to them, such as one featured on this very site for being "very dark" whereby several likeable characters died.
Fate Progression: Achievements! Weekly Tasks! Unlocking titles and new items from doing such; acquiring seals to spend on crafting items and or your alt classes (or main class, if it's your first class being leveled). Even storylines being reliant on such. Relic weapons being used to slaughter specific fates to acquire more powers. Encouraging people to go out in the world and help each other with fates. This is ingrained in the mindsets of many players, that all you have to do is ask for help in shout and you will be swarmed by players willing to assist you in taking out a fate (depending on the time of day in some cases, and if there is a rare Hunt that spawned). Becoming a Flame Lord, improving your Grand Company Rank, etc. Which leads into more unlocked content in general, as it's all connected in some way with massive attunement quests and tasks.
Relic Weapon Progression: The acquisition of crafted items, melded materia, finding a legendary smith, partaking in quests, FATES, dungeons, Hard Primal fights, etc. All giving bits and pieces to restore an ancient and withered relic. With each patch they added new ways to improve the item level of your relic. Long, tiresome journeyes that gave weapons of differeing powers and looks with each new transformation. Of people instantly recognizing such and that it likely took a lot of work. Of doing it for every class on the character.
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Combat Progression: Combat Progression! This is about self improvement. Of maxing out all the classes and using cross class skills. Mastering 32 botton rotations, understanding group comps, class weaknesses, class mechanics, etc.
Let's take a look at something I wrote with regards to this in the past, rather than have several more paragraphs fill up space: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/6633187#6633187
*****Highly recommend reading the above if a comment is made on this section.*****
If systems are set up in such a way as to require you to constantly be improving yourself, I say that is skill-based mastery and progression. Though I can understand the concept of it there is no way to improve the actual character or get it something it didn't have before, it is not progression. However, you will liekly not be able to get 135 items without such self improvement.
Class System: Leveling every class in game, giving you access to more abilities to be used on your favorite class or with what subclasses work for your advanced job. Added depth of abilities used in conjunction with each other. Such as a Dragoon's Blood for Blood or Invigorate -- giving you a 30% damage increase and restoring 500 TP instantly. Perhaps necessities for melee who want to raid. Increasing your characters power simply by playing the game and leveling up all of your classes. Even without all of the other things, simply logging on, you progress in FFXIV. Gil is also still useful as a whole, unlike other games whereby their currency is pretty much useless.
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Housing Progression: Owning a house is a fairly rare thing in this game -- for most servers. They cost millions to buy, millions to build and millions fo furnish. All of which need to be earned by yourself, which takes a while to carve out your gil making niche or favored ways (of which there are a lot in today's FFXIV). Earning gil is amazingly fun in this game no matter what you do, and can directly impact your character's own power and status in various ways. Including but not limited to buying 110 green items that can be Penta Melded with the best tier four materia (which, again, there is a 90% chance of losing each piece once you cross a threshold... with most costing 300-500k depending on the server). Filling out your expensive mansion with trophies acquired from the hardest content, the most expensive furniture that you earned through the various activities throughout the world, etc. is riveting to a lot of people. It objectively and monetarily increases the worth of the character the house is tied to and the respect / admiration owed to you. And, as the Ul'dahn saying goes, money is power in this game. Granted, though, skill and know how is much more important for the tough things. Especially when you have to learn -- in some cases -- a 32 button rotation. Mastering things yourself -- and not just your character -- becomes a necessity. In addition to the crafting stations, airship construction (future), gardening, chocobo stables, etc. etc. that will soon be mentioned.
Besides costing tens of millions (potentially), Housing allows for extensive customization both outside and inside the buildings. This requires the acquisition of hundreds of pieces of -- of times -- expensive furniture, trophies you acquire from extremely hard fights to show off, items made of rare crafting materials acquired by crafters / gatherers / hunters / raiders / seals... etc. If it is a FC house, you can add up to 512 rooms, chocobo stables, gardening, etc (each of which have their own little end game). You can also add training dummies, crafting stations, etc. etc. There are dozens of each type of items -- many types of beds you can lay on, hot tubs, pictures, seats, tables, chairs, misc. items like books, globes, plates, food, etc. Each time you acquire a rare piece of armor, you are improve your house and you can actually become quite proud of it. Though that is the way with housing systems in MMOs that employ them. In a lot of way, decorating is the end game for a lot of people, and having nothing but rare items could be pretty impressive. After all, the point of progression is achievement, of acquiring things, of mastering them. The rewards are but secondary -- but still there all the same.
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Character Progression: Like having things others do not? You can unlock various things outside of power = progression such as new dances from quests, new idle stances, specific outfits using the glamour system (transmog), pets worth millions that will sit on your shoulder or do tricks, new mounts, titles, housing, housing items, etc. Including but not limited to
The Hunting Log: Not like the Great Hunt, but more so hunting critters around the world for Seals to purchase items as well as massive boosts in Exp.
The Sightseeing Log: Self explanatory.
Crafting Log: ^
Gathering Log: ^
Fishing Log: ^ (Noting that some fish only appear on some days, under certain weather conditions, etc.)
Fish Guide: ^
Challenge Log: Challenges to do on a weekly basis. Including Fates, Dungeons, Chocobo Training, etc.
Gardening & Chocobo: Trying to find out cross plant combinations to get new plants to grow, using said plants to sell or feed your chocobo
Class Levels: Leveling every class to level 50 for access to unique skills (time consuming). Acquiring / earning / making full armor sets and weaponsets for your 20 classes (in addition to your retainer, which will be discussed later).
Roulette System: System whereby you get large chunks of experience and gil (especially if you're a tank) and fulfill certain requirements of weekly requirements, relic weapon quests, etc. Not to mention helping others out and potentially getting pet drops worth quite a bit.
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Achievement Progression: Touched on this earlier, but some achievements offer things that directly give your character things. Titles, items of power, bardings, pets, Triple Triad Cards, aesthetics, etc. You get some interesting crafting equipment, or grand company weapons / shields / titles by partaking in the Achievement system. Something to strive for on your spare time, and ever profitable in their own way.
System Unlock Progression: Similar to the Dungeon and Attunement Section, you have to go out in the world and talk to people, take on quests before you unlock the vast majority of systems in game. Even if you are level 50, there is a very good chance you missed it all. Most of your options will be greyed out in the meny (I personally don't like this) to be found out. Which leads into more opportunities to do things and increase your character's power in both experience, items and various other aspects which relate to it. Including but not limited to your chocobo and Free Company.
Glamour: Finding the right transmog -- grinding dungeons, earning gear, going on raids, fighting primals, doing treasure hunts, participating in Bounty Hunts, doing the story, making gil, etc. This is a system that adds value to a lot of games and a lot of people like. Making that perfect Final Fantasy character look. I've spent months in some cases trying to come up with sets taht I really like. Feels great logging into that character and doing the next big thing that comes up -- as there is always something to do or find.
PvP Progression: Arena style or Battleground 8x8x8, 16x16x16, 32x32x32 whereby titles and items of power are given as prize. In addition to unique abilities to use in PvP combat that increase in power with your rank. These have unique looks and are exceptionally powerful in a lot of ways. Ranks are also given out to hardcore PvPers. Though PvP in itself isn't a major focus for Final Fantasy XIV. But it is a fun little distraction at times, and a definite path for advancement.
Trial Progression: Primal. Hard Primal. Extreme Primal. Differing in difficulty, and providing different rewards. Hard gives fairly powerful weapons for alts or first characters, extreme offers opportunites for crafters as well as strong items, mounts, furniture, etc. Farm groups are up all the time for these highly coveted items. It's a goal oriented thing, and you progress to the next stage when complete or acquire it (as well as the potential for weapons, or materials to craft weapons that sell for millions).
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Raiding Progression: The typical form of progression in most games. Able to get 135 items and unlock a lot of story and a few cinematics. As well as misc. things. Not my cup of tea this expansion, will not comment much on it as its your standard thing besides the amazing story and cinematics.
This also includes the "LFR" raiding scene -- which is different from the Binding Coils of Bahamut and has its own storyline and three raids (and whenever I say storyline in this whole post, I mean quests upon quests of story, as well as cutscenes). Ancients - Crystal Tower - World of Darkness. Each with its own items, systems of upgrading items (Sands of Time / Oils of Time) and attunements to pass.
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World Boss Progression: Killing every S rank hunt, farming Odin for his mantle and items and horse, farming other large and rare creatures that only spawn once in a full moon. The achivements, titles, items, mounts, crafting reagents involved. The gathering of people and guilds and the like. The constant wipes of even a zerg of 100 players getting owned by Odin. Always be on the lookout here. Of when the weather turns to "Gloom" in the weather system.
Retainer Progression: Retainers are able to be leveled and sent on mission. Limitations are they are always locked at ten levels below you, until you are level 50. Then they may be leveled up to level 50. They require retainer coins (or ventures) to be sent on missions. They come back and earn experience. You assign classes to your retainers and equip them. You use actual items you make or buy, and need to fit every slot. They do show the weapons and armor in appearance, and the better equipment they have, the better the haul they'll bring back. This is also based on their level. These retainers can bring you back some powerful items, weapons, crafting items, rare furniture, etc. Even do some of the farming / gathering for you in small amounts. You can earn high level gear for them and then equip them, which adds to the need of keeping 20 classes (yours) stocked and managing all your items.
Guildleve and Leve Progression: Unlocking each area's Leve, participating in such with weekly quests or for items / retainer notes (Ventures) to send retainers on quests. Unlocking and completely Guildlevels that rewards experience, teaches you have to play the game, and grants a fair amount of gil.
Patch Progression: With each new patch, there is a new title to be had for the main story (typically), new primal with new item drops, new craftable items and new systems for the crafting meta. Three new dungeons, primals, dozens of side quests, new items of power that can be obtained in various ways (as seen above) and not just by raiding or grinding tomes. New achievements to be had, and improvements to the many new systems of the last patches as they continue support for such. Virtually everything is updated in some way and given a new end game.
Some limited time topics of interest:
Holiday Progression: In game created Holidays for Eorzea in addition to real life holidays named differently. Providing new dances, emotes, items, bardings, pets, outfits, etc. Their own music and unique events. Many of these things can be saved and sold down the line for exceptional amounts as the demand of them increases with new players or those who didn't partake. Usually in the hundreds of thousands, which can then be directed to 110 crafted and melded items.
Marriage System: Very well thought out and executed system that awards little more than giving you the ability to teleport to your spouse. In addition to a brand new mount that isn't available unless you're married. Also, new pets for all the guests, new equipment, achievements, etc. Not too much, but it is an incredibly fun event to take part in and worth mentioning. It ties into what is known as "Immersion" or "Role Play" progression.
What is progression, exactly? How is it defined? Is it so baselessly plain as saying "oh, well... item level this is the only progression!"? It is only black and white to the narrow minded or to the one. Visible progression is all around us. The fact that so many systems exist that you can master and move onto the next, being richer in experience, gil and items for it all. Truth be told, I'm not where close to being ready for the next expansion. Too much to do. It is all meaningful to me. Though each day I get closer to my goals.
In addition, this is just all the stuff off the top of my head (with 95% of them offering a way to give your character more power as well as entertain); there's quite a bit more that's up to the individual to find. I could go into depth about Crafting and gathering -- the myriad of systems involved of it, especially with each one and how they react to the market board... but that would probably be a longer write than what is already here and is from years of experience and working that at a high level within it. But all of this is part of the game's charm and fun, in some ways. Even if I find some aspects of it (the attunements) rather annoying.
In that light, "meaningful" character progression is a term for the individual. Lackluster views of "item power" need not apply (as a general statement) and are, in fact, not at all meaningful to me or what I look for in meaningful progression. Give me the experience, the memories and goals to accomplish that with then award me in some way. Base it around immersion -- as it is -- and when I think of what MMO has the most to do in it, I will think of that. Especially with the huge amount of content and frequent patches given.
Have a good one.
...Did you even pay attention to who you were replying to? I'm not against anything in this game, but I always see how the game needs more "meaningful" PvE combat so I'm curious how people who feel that way would do it without completely changing the game.
Anyway, I'm always thinking about how things could improve or change so I remain curious about it. I mean, the closest I've come up with is having a "gear set challenge" where if you get the full gear set of say, Tier 1 of Coil (first five turns), you can challenge Ifrit Hard Mode solo and the challenge changes based on your role, or a level of hunts that are turn 5/turn 9/turn 13 difficulty, or some dungeons with puzzles that you can enter with any party and what puzzles you use to unlock parts can only be done by certain races (like say, you enter with a Midlander, a Seeker of the Sun, and a Duskwright - there's two totems that have to be pressed when you go through these doors and you have to do it in a time limit, the doors will only open for a Midlander and Duskwright, but if you go back with a Midlander, Duskwright, and Duskwright the doors need two Duskwrights) and have them have rare monsters that drop rare crafting mats or something.
This and everything you said plus much more. Some people just don't get it. This game is fantastic and Heavensward is gonna' shine bright and all the haters gonna' hate.
I think in time we will see that stuff. Were going from walking to flying. Bigger zones. A Gunner class lol. I mean, again, we get 10 more levels coming in Heavensward and its supposed to be 50+ hours of content to fill that 10 levels.
We still don't know EVERYTHING about Heavensward or the majority of new mechanics that is yet to come. A lot of things are changing like Practice Raids and solo dungeons and shit like that.
I think what SE is doing is trying to not give us everything all at once. If they did then we would be sitting around going, "Duh, whats next?"
I don't wanna be like that. Be patient and have faith. The game gets better and better, not worse and worse obviously.
I do but I also believe that SE can't think of everything and sometimes, ideas from the community could be just what they need or want. Yoshi-P's team are only demi-humans, I can't expect them to think of every scenario, every idea. Suggestions and thoughts from the community could get a very welcome introduction to the game.
Although, I do think they need to fix how they do Main Scenario Quests...
I agree. And on the Main Scenerio too lol.
I was looking forward to this but flying mounts destroy games. Even limited to the new expansion areas, in just a few months time the zones will feel dead even when there are other players in them. They are seeking to bring bigger zones as well, just exacerbating the problem. I've been crossing my fingers hoping they realized their mistake and made them just flying taxis, but with the release just around the corner my hopes are completely dashed.
I remember when WoW: TBC came out, I thought flying seemed like a cool idea. By the time I was raiding, all zones were completely void of players. I would just never see people outside of cities and raid stones. It just plain sucks. With Blizzard going on record about the problems flying caused and their regret at ever implementing it, I don't know how SE could make the same mistake. It makes me feel like they are just looking for the quick expac financial boost and not caring for the future of the game.
I still really wish they had not gone for flying mounts. Flying taxis would have been great, all the benefits of flying mounts with none of the negatives. I would be happy to find that I am incorrect and was worried for nothing, and we will find out soon enough.