There are a lot of people out there who love PVP based games and ahve wanted a good PVP based mmorpg, then there are also people who just want somthing from different from the 1000s and 1000s of wow clones on the market..
Will the games be as popular as wow no of course not but there are enough people out there who want that type of game that there can be quite a ew on the market and still make money.
MMO devs should never try and make an mmo thinking their game will be as popular as wow.. wow is a blip and we propb wont see a western mmo with those numbers again.
Anyway i am one of those people who are looking forward to the next 10 years of mmorpgs as there will be a lot of games that i think i will enjoy.. Openworld sandbox games with pvp and some kind of player loot system..I know these types of games will be less popular and ahve less players than wow but i am happy with that as i want to game with people woh want they same type of game as me not with someone who will cry everytime they get killed and get looted.
Originally posted by Arglebargle Gordon Walton pretty much said that the PVP MMORPG market amounts to about 30% of those MMO players. Budget accordingly.
Exactly. The pvp crowd isn't as big or influential as they like to think they are.
True, the reason why so many PVP games remain either niche or fail entirely, is because PVP players represent a very small percentage of the overall available playerbase, actually 30 percent is probably still on the high side, as that probably includes casual pvp'ers, who also prefer pve aspects of game play but are willing to join in pvp from time to time, any game that did not have a pve aspect would by default, be of no interest to even that group, for the reality of this you just have to look at both Eve Online, DAoC and also Archeage.
In Eve online, the vast majority of the players remain in high sec, where they can enjoy the PVE aspects of the game, with the occasional bout of PVP if they so desire, the 'hardcore' PVP'ers are often the ones in Nullsec, although even there, a significant proportion are also PVE industrialists etc. What might not be too surprising to some, but, may be to others, is that most fleets in action at any given time are usually either Mining Fleets, or Mission running ones, Fleets comprised of PVP related activities are present of course, but they are not as numerous or as widespread, shocking isn't it.
DAoC, another surprising factor some seem to be ignoring, is that while this game also represents what was considered the best Realm v Realm v Realm PVP, it also had a strong PVE presence, again it might surprise some how many players spent most of their time playing the PVE aspect of the game, and joining in the Realm warfare if at all, on a casual basis, or only perhaps when their Guild required it as a call to arms.
Archeage, so promising, and yet was it the PVP that ultimately was that games doom, or just the monetisation methods, guess that particular issue will never be satisfactorily answered, but like anything else, would the game have been more successful, more appealing, if they had created PVE servers
Funny thing about choice really, when you look at any game where there is an option to play on servers by type, be it PVP PVE RP etc, the emptiest servers are always the PVP ones, more people play on the RP servers than they do on the PVP ones, but how about a game like ESO, where the campaigns were supposed to be central to the overall gameplay, where instead, the campaigns were treated like farms and not really like battlegrounds at all, if any game depicts the utter failure of PVP as a centralised focus, its probably ESO, which will undoubtedly continue to evolve along more 'PVE friendly' lines.
PVP as a fad, yeah, i can see that, most PVP orientated games tend to be ephemeral in nature, which is pretty much the only aspect of a 'fad' that really applies.
MOBA cross overs are perhaps responsible for the number of new PvP titles, and everyone likes a bit of player v player action now and again - but for most (70% plus possibly more) PvP is not the enjoyable way to play most of the time.
Procedural generation maybe in the future?
The conversation here and elsewhere still has those that laughably think there is something "macho" about sitting at their PC playing a game , moving their mouse and pressing their keyboard - in a different way to others (PvP Vs PvE buffoons).
PVP a fad? No. PVP was there at the near beginning (Everquest) and never let go. Is it the Savior of the MMO genre - no. As one poster put it - pvp is for the young and for the casual. My sons were both big pvp players (almost exclusively) in their teens and they were part of a local group of about 20 who did so. They moved from mmo to mmo and almost all of them, including my sons, eventually dropped mmo entirely. Now they are all playing LOL when they can (families do take a lot of your time).
I admit I am biased against pvp. I started gaming with Everquest and then Lineage II and got ganked all the time. I still feel that most pvp players would rather fight an inept opponent then take on a real challenge.
However, I will say that some of the most fun that I ever had in an MMO was in Alterac Valley in vanilla and BC. I loved the team PVP in that place. No one, not even Blizzard has been able to replicate that arena. Everything, every other large scale battleground, ends up being a zerg and zergs are no fun.
I sometimes wonder whether MMORPG writers even play real games. PvP was part of the earliest MMORPG's, it was there and it worked well. These "niche" companies are trying to revive the great age of MMO's, to bring back those days, definitely not a fad. True MMO gamers have been wanting it for over a decade now, so how can it be a fad.
I have been playing DAOC on/off since its launch. It shaped my gaming preferences forever. Faction vs faction conflict is THE ONLY feature I must have if I expect to play the game for any extended period of time.
What I have seen is game developers developing new games is scaming players by promising meaningful player vs player conflict. It seems to have been written into the "How to hype a new game to maximize profit" handbook issued to marketing directors and developers. The template for the best faction vs faction conflict ever made ...DAOC.....is visible to all....yet none have been able or willing to take it to the next level. The list of pvp "pretenders" is long.My list would include: ELDER SCROLLS ONLINE.....GUILD WARS 2......RIFT......STAR WARS etc etc.
In this era of same ole same ole....independent game companies who focus on a niche and hopefully produce an outstanding product for a segment of the gamer populous would seem to offer some hope for the mmog genre.
CAMELOT UNCHAINED is my only hope and that is a year away.So I've moved away from the mmog genre to rpgs.....and I look forward to THE WITCHER 3 which will launch next week.
PVP is a group of Really Hardcore gamers that move from title to title. For the most part with the Exception of EVE PVP Hardcore players are the exception rather than the rule. Hardcore PVP requires hours of gameplay time that most people with families and kids cannot afford to expend. Some yes but most no.
Hardcore PVP players Tend to be Younger or if older like myself married to a spouse that games but does not have children. The priorities as we get older change because as your job titles grow with responsibility your social responsibility grows too. You can;t spend every free moment gaming anymore.
Pvp doesn't have to be exclusive to a group of hardcore players, it depends on how the game is set up. If the game focuses predominately on skill and teamwork and gear/level takes a back seat, even someone with a modest amount of playtime can become reasonably good and enjoy it.
In order to obtain funding from venture capitalists developers have to show proof of a market in their venture. Currently, MOBA;s provide that proof. Hence, that is where the money is. What developers have seemingly yet to realize, however, is that MOBA's and MMORPG's are two different genres. And just because MOBA's have millions playing them does not mean they wil be playing MMORPGs. They are simply repeating the same mistake they made when everyone copied WoW. In essence, LoL is the new WoW, and in the future industry analysts will be looking at LoL in the same manner that they now look at WoW. In short, quit looking at market trends and thinking that you can rake in profits by simply "stealing" market share from other popular video game genres. While it is true that this is a generally accepted business practice, it does not translate well in the video game industry. Gamers are very specific with their gaming preferences. We are not all the same simply because we play video games.
In short, the reason why PvP has taken a lot of the limelight in game development lately is because developers have simply run out of ideas as it pertains to PvE. In its current state, it is much too expensive to design and develop and the ideas are old, boring, and stale. The largest market share still lies in a PvE focused game. PvE focused games, however, need to be redesigned in a manner that again captures our imagination. NPC character AI needs to be ramped up and the game play needs to become challenging and rewarding. It isn't currently, but it is, by no means, and impossibility. Computer AI can be made to be just as challenging as PvP encounters. It just takes a lot of money, innovation and imagination on the part of developers. All of which are in short supply in today's state of MMORPG development.
I have been playing DAOC on/off since its launch. It shaped my gaming preferences forever. Faction vs faction conflict is THE ONLY feature I must have if I expect to play the game for any extended period of time.
...The template for the best faction vs faction conflict ever made ...DAOC.....is visible to all....yet none have been able or willing to take it to the next level. The list of pvp "pretenders" is long.My list would include: ELDER SCROLLS ONLINE.....GUILD WARS 2......RIFT......STAR WARS etc etc...
I'm a long-time player of DAoC (I was there when my server opened up) and it has also shaped my gaming preferences. It's still my favorite MMO of all time.
That being said, I disagree with your assessment of ESO. For me, it has come the closest to mirroring the type of RvR environment and fun found in DAoC. I basically live in the ESO's "frontier" (Cyrodiil) and have a blast every time I log on. While there are no trolls or kobolds or lurikeens to add flavor to the character visuals during pvp, it still has strong, fluid faction warfare that ranges form epic castle sieges/defenses to large skirmishes to small encounters to fights at "mile gates". It also provides relatively quick access to fights, which is nice for people who have limited time but still want to earn some APs (RPs in DAoC vernacular).
They can adjust a game all day, but they can't help the issue between the keyboard and the chair. Played: UO, DAoC, AC, WoW, EVE, TR, WAR, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, GW2, TSW, ESO, Elite:D Play EVE for free for 21 days
Originally posted by Arglebargle Gordon Walton pretty much said that the PVP MMORPG market amounts to about 30% of those MMO players. Budget accordingly.
Exactly. The pvp crowd isn't as big or influential as they like to think they are.
They're a significant under served market segment. How big and influential do they need to be? A third of the MMO market is a huge amount of money. Especially when it's up for grabs to the first group to make the minimal financial commitment. It also has the potential to grow if properly executed. How large was the PvE MMORPG market before Everquest and World of Warcraft?
Walton's comment referenced the move to Trammel in UO, so I'd guess the market went back that far, at least
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
How can PvP be a fad when it's been in every MMO since UO in some form?
No the fad was story and adventures, and it's over now... Sorry 70% of the market, you're just irrelevant.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
PvP is the most popular form of multiplay if we speak computer games in general, co-op ain't even close.
And MMO devs do realize this, but with MMOs PvE is several times as popular. That means there is a lot of untapped potential there and it do have the possibility to get in many new players into the genre.
However, the reason that PvP is so unliked in MMOs is because the current mechanics works pretty bad in PvP and the games PvP parts havn't been fun enough. The new games needs to solve those issues or fail.
There is a particular problem with most PvP focused MMOs: the point of almost all MMOs is to constantly improve your gear. But if they allow you to loot other players that turns a lot of people away (the type who spend 3 months trying to get a specific gear sets don't like when 10 guys gank them and steal their stuff).
On the other hand if you can't loot other players you take away a lot of the point of playing a PvP MMO, in MMO you fight so you can loot whatever you kill after all.
There is also the added factor of reward versus risk there, several people ganging up on someone have close to zero risk of losing which messes up the fun of the game, in PvE you can just either spawn more mobs to balance things out (GW2 do this among oothers) or give buffs to the mob.
I think looting and gear is one of the biggest reason most PvP MMOs do so badly compared to PvE focused. The second reason is that most games have both playstyles but combat mechanics focused on PvE which means a lot of your abilities and skills are useless in PvP (like taunting).
If they solve these things PvP MMOs could be as popular as PvP FPS games, if not then we will be seeing another bunch of DFO, MO and in best case an Eve or 2, nothing wrong with them but most of them will just be small niche games.
Comments
You know what I won't play? An MMO.
There are a lot of people out there who love PVP based games and ahve wanted a good PVP based mmorpg, then there are also people who just want somthing from different from the 1000s and 1000s of wow clones on the market..
Will the games be as popular as wow no of course not but there are enough people out there who want that type of game that there can be quite a ew on the market and still make money.
MMO devs should never try and make an mmo thinking their game will be as popular as wow.. wow is a blip and we propb wont see a western mmo with those numbers again.
Anyway i am one of those people who are looking forward to the next 10 years of mmorpgs as there will be a lot of games that i think i will enjoy.. Openworld sandbox games with pvp and some kind of player loot system..I know these types of games will be less popular and ahve less players than wow but i am happy with that as i want to game with people woh want they same type of game as me not with someone who will cry everytime they get killed and get looted.
True, the reason why so many PVP games remain either niche or fail entirely, is because PVP players represent a very small percentage of the overall available playerbase, actually 30 percent is probably still on the high side, as that probably includes casual pvp'ers, who also prefer pve aspects of game play but are willing to join in pvp from time to time, any game that did not have a pve aspect would by default, be of no interest to even that group, for the reality of this you just have to look at both Eve Online, DAoC and also Archeage.
In Eve online, the vast majority of the players remain in high sec, where they can enjoy the PVE aspects of the game, with the occasional bout of PVP if they so desire, the 'hardcore' PVP'ers are often the ones in Nullsec, although even there, a significant proportion are also PVE industrialists etc. What might not be too surprising to some, but, may be to others, is that most fleets in action at any given time are usually either Mining Fleets, or Mission running ones, Fleets comprised of PVP related activities are present of course, but they are not as numerous or as widespread, shocking isn't it.
DAoC, another surprising factor some seem to be ignoring, is that while this game also represents what was considered the best Realm v Realm v Realm PVP, it also had a strong PVE presence, again it might surprise some how many players spent most of their time playing the PVE aspect of the game, and joining in the Realm warfare if at all, on a casual basis, or only perhaps when their Guild required it as a call to arms.
Archeage, so promising, and yet was it the PVP that ultimately was that games doom, or just the monetisation methods, guess that particular issue will never be satisfactorily answered, but like anything else, would the game have been more successful, more appealing, if they had created PVE servers
Funny thing about choice really, when you look at any game where there is an option to play on servers by type, be it PVP PVE RP etc, the emptiest servers are always the PVP ones, more people play on the RP servers than they do on the PVP ones, but how about a game like ESO, where the campaigns were supposed to be central to the overall gameplay, where instead, the campaigns were treated like farms and not really like battlegrounds at all, if any game depicts the utter failure of PVP as a centralised focus, its probably ESO, which will undoubtedly continue to evolve along more 'PVE friendly' lines.
PVP as a fad, yeah, i can see that, most PVP orientated games tend to be ephemeral in nature, which is pretty much the only aspect of a 'fad' that really applies.
MOBA cross overs are perhaps responsible for the number of new PvP titles, and everyone likes a bit of player v player action now and again - but for most (70% plus possibly more) PvP is not the enjoyable way to play most of the time.
Procedural generation maybe in the future?
The conversation here and elsewhere still has those that laughably think there is something "macho" about sitting at their PC playing a game , moving their mouse and pressing their keyboard - in a different way to others (PvP Vs PvE buffoons).
Have to wonder what they are compensating for
PVP a fad? No. PVP was there at the near beginning (Everquest) and never let go. Is it the Savior of the MMO genre - no. As one poster put it - pvp is for the young and for the casual. My sons were both big pvp players (almost exclusively) in their teens and they were part of a local group of about 20 who did so. They moved from mmo to mmo and almost all of them, including my sons, eventually dropped mmo entirely. Now they are all playing LOL when they can (families do take a lot of your time).
I admit I am biased against pvp. I started gaming with Everquest and then Lineage II and got ganked all the time. I still feel that most pvp players would rather fight an inept opponent then take on a real challenge.
However, I will say that some of the most fun that I ever had in an MMO was in Alterac Valley in vanilla and BC. I loved the team PVP in that place. No one, not even Blizzard has been able to replicate that arena. Everything, every other large scale battleground, ends up being a zerg and zergs are no fun.
I sometimes wonder whether MMORPG writers even play real games. PvP was part of the earliest MMORPG's, it was there and it worked well. These "niche" companies are trying to revive the great age of MMO's, to bring back those days, definitely not a fad. True MMO gamers have been wanting it for over a decade now, so how can it be a fad.
I have been playing DAOC on/off since its launch. It shaped my gaming preferences forever. Faction vs faction conflict is THE ONLY feature I must have if I expect to play the game for any extended period of time.
What I have seen is game developers developing new games is scaming players by promising meaningful player vs player conflict. It seems to have been written into the "How to hype a new game to maximize profit" handbook issued to marketing directors and developers. The template for the best faction vs faction conflict ever made ...DAOC.....is visible to all....yet none have been able or willing to take it to the next level. The list of pvp "pretenders" is long.My list would include: ELDER SCROLLS ONLINE.....GUILD WARS 2......RIFT......STAR WARS etc etc.
In this era of same ole same ole....independent game companies who focus on a niche and hopefully produce an outstanding product for a segment of the gamer populous would seem to offer some hope for the mmog genre.
CAMELOT UNCHAINED is my only hope and that is a year away.So I've moved away from the mmog genre to rpgs.....and I look forward to THE WITCHER 3 which will launch next week.
Pvp doesn't have to be exclusive to a group of hardcore players, it depends on how the game is set up. If the game focuses predominately on skill and teamwork and gear/level takes a back seat, even someone with a modest amount of playtime can become reasonably good and enjoy it.
Most PvE in games these days is either too easy, too repetitive, too big a pain, or have ridiculous 'lockout' times.
I like PvP based games because they almost never suffer from any of those issues.
PvP is love, PvP is life.
I prefer mixed PvE/PvP where endgame crafting is PvP resource only.
And the circle goes round
Sway all day, butterfly flaps all the way!
In order to obtain funding from venture capitalists developers have to show proof of a market in their venture. Currently, MOBA;s provide that proof. Hence, that is where the money is. What developers have seemingly yet to realize, however, is that MOBA's and MMORPG's are two different genres. And just because MOBA's have millions playing them does not mean they wil be playing MMORPGs. They are simply repeating the same mistake they made when everyone copied WoW. In essence, LoL is the new WoW, and in the future industry analysts will be looking at LoL in the same manner that they now look at WoW. In short, quit looking at market trends and thinking that you can rake in profits by simply "stealing" market share from other popular video game genres. While it is true that this is a generally accepted business practice, it does not translate well in the video game industry. Gamers are very specific with their gaming preferences. We are not all the same simply because we play video games.
In short, the reason why PvP has taken a lot of the limelight in game development lately is because developers have simply run out of ideas as it pertains to PvE. In its current state, it is much too expensive to design and develop and the ideas are old, boring, and stale. The largest market share still lies in a PvE focused game. PvE focused games, however, need to be redesigned in a manner that again captures our imagination. NPC character AI needs to be ramped up and the game play needs to become challenging and rewarding. It isn't currently, but it is, by no means, and impossibility. Computer AI can be made to be just as challenging as PvP encounters. It just takes a lot of money, innovation and imagination on the part of developers. All of which are in short supply in today's state of MMORPG development.
I'm a long-time player of DAoC (I was there when my server opened up) and it has also shaped my gaming preferences. It's still my favorite MMO of all time.
That being said, I disagree with your assessment of ESO. For me, it has come the closest to mirroring the type of RvR environment and fun found in DAoC. I basically live in the ESO's "frontier" (Cyrodiil) and have a blast every time I log on. While there are no trolls or kobolds or lurikeens to add flavor to the character visuals during pvp, it still has strong, fluid faction warfare that ranges form epic castle sieges/defenses to large skirmishes to small encounters to fights at "mile gates". It also provides relatively quick access to fights, which is nice for people who have limited time but still want to earn some APs (RPs in DAoC vernacular).
They can adjust a game all day, but they can't help the issue between the keyboard and the chair.
Played: UO, DAoC, AC, WoW, EVE, TR, WAR, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, GW2, TSW, ESO, Elite:D
Play EVE for free for 21 days
Walton's comment referenced the move to Trammel in UO, so I'd guess the market went back that far, at least
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
How can PvP be a fad when it's been in every MMO since UO in some form?
No the fad was story and adventures, and it's over now... Sorry 70% of the market, you're just irrelevant.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
PvP is the most popular form of multiplay if we speak computer games in general, co-op ain't even close.
And MMO devs do realize this, but with MMOs PvE is several times as popular. That means there is a lot of untapped potential there and it do have the possibility to get in many new players into the genre.
However, the reason that PvP is so unliked in MMOs is because the current mechanics works pretty bad in PvP and the games PvP parts havn't been fun enough. The new games needs to solve those issues or fail.
There is a particular problem with most PvP focused MMOs: the point of almost all MMOs is to constantly improve your gear. But if they allow you to loot other players that turns a lot of people away (the type who spend 3 months trying to get a specific gear sets don't like when 10 guys gank them and steal their stuff).
On the other hand if you can't loot other players you take away a lot of the point of playing a PvP MMO, in MMO you fight so you can loot whatever you kill after all.
There is also the added factor of reward versus risk there, several people ganging up on someone have close to zero risk of losing which messes up the fun of the game, in PvE you can just either spawn more mobs to balance things out (GW2 do this among oothers) or give buffs to the mob.
I think looting and gear is one of the biggest reason most PvP MMOs do so badly compared to PvE focused. The second reason is that most games have both playstyles but combat mechanics focused on PvE which means a lot of your abilities and skills are useless in PvP (like taunting).
If they solve these things PvP MMOs could be as popular as PvP FPS games, if not then we will be seeing another bunch of DFO, MO and in best case an Eve or 2, nothing wrong with them but most of them will just be small niche games.