Originally posted by thundercles How about everyone just go read "People's history of the united States." Then talk about how much white people suck. Because they're the one group you can freely bash. No need for mmo. (Coming from a white guy so its not racist.)
Are you saying that Native Americans bash whites? Because there are many white people that go to reservation, for many different reasons, and they are not hated at all. Native Americans do not think "white people suck" so where do you get your information?
My comment has nothing to do with native Americans. Go read people's history of the united States and you'll understand.
So, you think I do not know what you are trying to say. You are posting this in an article about native Americans, you know that right? Plus, it think that Howard Zinn is a complete idiot and anti-American Marxist . That is my opinion of course.
I think to put things in perspective, you might try reading a book by James W Loewen, called 'Lies my teacher told me' it really helped me put things into perspective, uncomfortable reading perhaps, but i think ignoring or rewriting history is probably how so many of the present conflicts have been allowed to fester.
Forced to read that one too in college. I really felt like the US history professors in college just wanted to teach "white people are the reason everything is wrong." The point of all my posts is to say if you go through any cultures history you can find jacked up stuff. Its just that its "cool" now to shame white people while if you tried the same stunt with any other culture you would be called racist. Just my opinion....
Maybe your college professors were trying to teach you that people don't learn from their past mistakes, white folk included. Oh yeah, and they also refuse to be accountable for their (or their cultures) actions. You may not be responsible for things that have happened in the past, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be sympathetic, either. Problem is that we are unapologetic and, also, unforgiving. So sorry that you were "forced" to read something that disagreed with your ideals, but maybe if you had approached it with a different attitude you may have actually taken something enlightening away from it.
Oh and, yes, I'm white.
Thanks for the feedback! I did take a lot away from those classes. That the fallout from colonialism/European arrogance has had far reaching damage to the world community. I am extremely sympathetic to the tragedies the Native Americans and others have suffered. I have read and re read my posts to try to see where I showed callousness and I can find no statement that reflects that attitude. However, I did make statements about my own experience that imply that using guilt to try to communicate a message only creates more tension. Perhaps a better motivator would be the desire to live in a more peaceful and loving global community that is full of grace and mercy.
I am grateful that you have had the experiences you have had to bring you to your level. However, we all have our own worldview that is shaped by our own experiences. It is because of arrogance and condescending attitudes that the wounds and division continue to fester in the global community.
Edit: After looking more at my original post in the thread. I can see how one might think it was harsh if it was responding to the OP's post. I was not responding to the OP's post. I was added to the conversation about having a game that is a "corrective lesson" by "user deleted". I suggested just reading People History and sitting around bashing white people which is what my US History college class was like.
Originally posted by thundercles How about everyone just go read "People's history of the united States." Then talk about how much white people suck. Because they're the one group you can freely bash. No need for mmo. (Coming from a white guy so its not racist.)
Are you saying that Native Americans bash whites? Because there are many white people that go to reservation, for many different reasons, and they are not hated at all. Native Americans do not think "white people suck" so where do you get your information?
My comment has nothing to do with native Americans. Go read people's history of the united States and you'll understand.
So, you think I do not know what you are trying to say. You are posting this in an article about native americans, you know that right? Plus, it think that Howard Zinn is a complete idiot and anti-American Marxist . That is my opinion of course.
I think to put things in perspective, you might try reading a book by James W Loewen, called 'Lies my teacher told me' it really helped me put things into perspective, uncomfortable reading perhaps, but i think ignoring or rewriting history is probably how so many of the present conflicts have been allowed to fester.
Forced to read that one too in college. I really felt like the US history professors in college just wanted to teach "white people are the reason everything is wrong." The point of all my posts is to say if you go through any cultures history you can find jacked up stuff. Its just that its "cool" now to shame white people while if you tried the same stunt with any other culture you would be called racist. Just my opinion....
Maybe your college professors were trying to teach you that people don't learn from their past mistakes, white folk included. Oh yeah, and they also refuse to be accountable for their (or their cultures) actions. You may not be responsible for things that have happened in the past, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be sympathetic, either. Problem is that we are unapologetic and, also, unforgiving. So sorry that you were "forced" to read something that disagreed with your ideals, but maybe if you had approached it with a different attitude you may have actually taken something enlightening away from it.
Oh and, yes, I'm white.
Totally agree, and, also white.
If history humbles us, it means we've learned from it, heaven help our children if we don't
The idea is good, and I could see you branching it out with middle and south American tribes later as well.
Then again, I am always for historical games .
Just keep the holy trinity away from the combat mechanics, when people start to heal eachothers in combat you take away any history and might as well go for a full fantasy game.
Originally posted by mayito7777 Sorry OP but that never will happen, right now the Washington Redskins are been sued because the use of the term "Redskin" is considered to be racism, can you imagine all the lawsuits that would be launch if someone made such a game?
Correct me if real history is wrong, but isn't Redskins used to honor then-coach Lone Star Dietz, an American Sioux with Indians present during the naming?
If a woman wants to put tatoos or dress colorful on her face what business is it for others to tell her what she may or may not wear?
And that is why you shouldn't be talking about cultures you don't understand.
You just analyzed that hypothetical woman with your culture in mind not hers.
By no means do I support genital mutilation and any of that stuff but...their culture, their right to self-determine, not my job to tell them how to treat their women and themselves.
Europe entered renaissance on its own, no foreign country came over and started making socio-political pressure to be allowed to paint naked angels.
I doubt you have experience or expertise on the subject Robokapp, but it is worthy to note the re-enforcement on the stereotypical viewpoint which again, is remenince of the influence of the media. There are over 3,000 different groups or sub-cultures in Africa alone. Are you claiming because one group wears tatoos that automatically they are into genital mulitation which is more possible belief or humanitarian issue?
Not every group follows the same rituals nor holds the same belief as others. Take it from someone who actually had the experience of speaking to residents from the country. Again, it is the belief that nothing but barbarism is what has been heavily reflected in video-games besides the inner-urban gang-man theme. Tatoos are cultural btw, not a sign of genital multilation. Yet why is it that game companies and media refuse to show anything but such? Again, why is there a heavy absence of other ethnicities and, if they are there, they are placed in a state of what would be considered backwardness?
That would be a subject that exceeds the purpose of this thread...though if you like you are free to pm anytime about it. No censorship or propaganda machines included.
Originally posted by mayito7777 Sorry OP but that never will happen, right now the Washington Redskins are been sued because the use of the term "Redskin" is considered to be racism, can you imagine all the lawsuits that would be launch if someone made such a game?
Correct me if real history is wrong, but isn't Redskins used to honor then-coach Lone Star Dietz, an American Sioux with Indians present during the naming?
I'll just be happy with someone making an mmo that isn't complete shit.
The players have been calling for Ultima Online redone with an experienced team and top notch graphics... Here we are, 18 fucking years later. Nothing. 18 years, and it is still the greatest mmo by leaps and bounds to ever be created.
Gaming would have to convert back into it's hobby-geek form before the transition into the e-sport/short-terms wide-audience sales department state its in today.
I wouldn't mind an updated Ultima Online or something a bit more unique than the generics out here today. Pump out a generic and get millions worth of dollars of investment based sorely on hype. No wonder why indie-games are sitting half-done yet so many have forked over cash enough to buy two cities.
Originally posted by thundercles How about everyone just go read "People's history of the united States." Then talk about how much white people suck. Because they're the one group you can freely bash. No need for mmo. (Coming from a white guy so its not racist.)
Are you saying that Native Americans bash whites? Because there are many white people that go to reservation, for many different reasons, and they are not hated at all. Native Americans do not think "white people suck" so where do you get your information?
My comment has nothing to do with native Americans. Go read people's history of the united States and you'll understand.
So, you think I do not know what you are trying to say. You are posting this in an article about native americans, you know that right? Plus, it think that Howard Zinn is a complete idiot and anti-American Marxist . That is my opinion of course.
I think to put things in perspective, you might try reading a book by James W Loewen, called 'Lies my teacher told me' it really helped me put things into perspective, uncomfortable reading perhaps, but i think ignoring or rewriting history is probably how so many of the present conflicts have been allowed to fester.
Forced to read that one too in college. I really felt like the US history professors in college just wanted to teach "white people are the reason everything is wrong." The point of all my posts is to say if you go through any cultures history you can find jacked up stuff. Its just that its "cool" now to shame white people while if you tried the same stunt with any other culture you would be called racist. Just my opinion....
Maybe your college professors were trying to teach you that people don't learn from their past mistakes, white folk included. Oh yeah, and they also refuse to be accountable for their (or their cultures) actions. You may not be responsible for things that have happened in the past, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be sympathetic, either. Problem is that we are unapologetic and, also, unforgiving. So sorry that you were "forced" to read something that disagreed with your ideals, but maybe if you had approached it with a different attitude you may have actually taken something enlightening away from it.
Oh and, yes, I'm white.
Totally agree, and, also white.
If history humbles us, it means we've learned from it, heaven help our children if we don't
lol Jeebus
No...history was one way, now is taught another. Now it's the white man that destroyed everything. If you read the real history, it's man destroying man. No color involved. More "native Americans" killed each other than any white man did. Then you have to go back to when the Northmen were here....then the other "Native Americans" before that.
But hey...don't read anything. Just let the revisionist history rule...srsly
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I think maybe OP has an over idealized idea of what tribal life was like, its not just what you see at indian fairs, beaded necklaces, arrowheads and whatnot.
Most of the so called peaceful tribes simply never missed an opportunity to sell out the more warlike tribes to their enemies. Some tribes were barbaric in their tactics. Many tribes still had sacrificial practices.Enslavement was common place to defeated tribes. Thats just talking about North American tribes, not even getting into the even more ritualistic tribes from the southern tip of Mexico down.Most tribes practiced a sort of benevolent shamanism, but some of them were more like Apahches.
Something like this would have to be done on a regional section of Indians, The southeastern Natchez indian tribe, the extinct and warlike Natchez being one of them would be one group, then the northeast tribes, shawnee, Miami, .. hell just use this map.
ONE region from North America would be a game larger than the Elder Scrolls online map. Each one has a slightly different culture group. Even the way one tribe builds a burial mound is different. Different languages in an area a few hundred miles across. And those are tribes in the same region. A Natchez tribal camp is a bit more open than a Choctaw camp was more militant a bit more on edge. But less is known about them they were eliminated after 1730 by the French settlers of the time They dispersed into other tribes but not the hated Choctaw indians who sold them out. Karma hit the Choctaw in the trail of tears, but to get a real feal for tribal live in North America you need to go pre colonial pre 1700s at least. Thats not accounting for probable Viking and Welsh visitors who explored the areas, obviously, since you had Welsh speaking tribes who dated themselves around 1100 or so, but Apparently the Welsh liked the Indians so much, they stayed and made tents, the Welsh were good guys apparently.
It doesn't need to be about the times Europeans arrived but can tell of the lore, life and struggles of different tribes. MMO's rarely are "real life" depictions anyway, so mixing the (I'm sure) rich myths into the game as "true" and having spirits and all and shamans etc ... I'm sure that could be interesting. Some were nomadic, some were settlers and farmers, there is enough variety for different game styles too, isn't it?
I'd be very interested to try something like this and maybe even learn something. I've been playing Xsyon too because I was interested in its slight Native American theme/undertone, but there wasn't much of it in the end ingame unfortunately.
Played: Pretty much any fantasy MMO, some did not even make it to release ... Favorites: UO, EQ2, Vanguard, Wurm Online, Salem, ESO, Creativerse Playing: ESO, Creativerse, Guild Wars 2 Anticipating: (sigh) ... maybe Ashes of Creation
Originally posted by strawhat0981 Having a large amount of Native American heritage, I kind of find it demeaning that you brought this up. Do we have to make an mmo centered around Native American culture? Why? So we can feel more secure that Native Americans are represented (correctly) in the video game industry?
I'm not sure I understand that sentiments origin. I'm personally from Europe and feel it is not demeaning at all if one is about medieval times of my country. Instead I feel it is interesting and a matter of attention/respect as long as the depiction is halfway accurate and not making the "indigenous" (my forefathers) look like idiots. Exposing my cultural roots in such a large projects for others to explore - I'm positive about it.
Would you maybe feel willing to explain your sentiment? There is no perception that the ignorance and lack of attention to your cultural background is a problem? I'm truly curious.
Played: Pretty much any fantasy MMO, some did not even make it to release ... Favorites: UO, EQ2, Vanguard, Wurm Online, Salem, ESO, Creativerse Playing: ESO, Creativerse, Guild Wars 2 Anticipating: (sigh) ... maybe Ashes of Creation
Originally posted by mayito7777 Sorry OP but that never will happen, right now the Washington Redskins are been sued because the use of the term "Redskin" is considered to be racism, can you imagine all the lawsuits that would be launch if someone made such a game?
Not 1 native american i have talked too complains about the name Redskin. That comes from Political Correctness crapfrom liberals. Do Whites complain about whiteman, do blacks complain complain about blackman ? Native Americans have a proud heritage. They should not be ashamed of nothing/. Native americans were at war with each other way before the whiteman entered the arena.
Played: Pretty much any fantasy MMO, some did not even make it to release ... Favorites: UO, EQ2, Vanguard, Wurm Online, Salem, ESO, Creativerse Playing: ESO, Creativerse, Guild Wars 2 Anticipating: (sigh) ... maybe Ashes of Creation
Originally posted by mayito7777 Sorry OP but that never will happen, right now the Washington Redskins are been sued because the use of the term "Redskin" is considered to be racism, can you imagine all the lawsuits that would be launch if someone made such a game?
Not 1 native american i have talked too complains about the name Redskin. That comes from Political Correctness crapfrom liberals. Do Whites complain about whiteman, do blacks complain complain about blackman ? Native Americans have a proud heritage. They should not be ashamed of nothing/. Native americans were at war with each other way before the whiteman entered the arena.
Same area I am from....and you can post as many links as you want. The man that helped coin the phrase in sports today was a Native American. The team logo and name was helped designed by him. The trem is a positive to the Native Americans that know and matter...not the PC ones out for publicity.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
we already have it in the Secret World, Solomon´s Island.
But a whole MMO centered around it, who knows.
People might request wizards and elves, and riding dragons.. again
Maybe not the best implementation
Don't get me wrong, I really like the Wabanaki story arch, but: a split and self-disputing tribe, living in a trailer park, giving up on their heritage and building a casino from the money they got from the government... maybe that's not the most friendly image of the present. Ok, we reunite them and they help fighting against the darkness, but still...
Same for their past (the Darkness War instance), back in the days when they were big and protected the land: they almost got wiped by the Mayans, and survived only because the vikings arrived in time... so that part has both the "tall white folks save the day" element, and also the "evil from SouthA try to wreck the world against the good guys in NorthA who are protecting it - but only with Eu help"
Maybe I'm wrong in this, it's hard to tell from this side of the pond... btw. it's amusing that Sonnac still calls them "the Colonies"
(/irony of course, before someone takes it too seriously)
An MMO like real life Native American culture? Have you been to a reservation lately? I got a lot in my home state. The MMO would be a lot of sitting around in trailers and government housing drinking and not doing much else in general. But occasionally banding together to build a casino to suck away money from the local white people who are too poor to go to Vegas. That would pretty much be the whole game... Sad but true.
Comments
Thanks for the feedback! I did take a lot away from those classes. That the fallout from colonialism/European arrogance has had far reaching damage to the world community. I am extremely sympathetic to the tragedies the Native Americans and others have suffered. I have read and re read my posts to try to see where I showed callousness and I can find no statement that reflects that attitude. However, I did make statements about my own experience that imply that using guilt to try to communicate a message only creates more tension. Perhaps a better motivator would be the desire to live in a more peaceful and loving global community that is full of grace and mercy.
I am grateful that you have had the experiences you have had to bring you to your level. However, we all have our own worldview that is shaped by our own experiences. It is because of arrogance and condescending attitudes that the wounds and division continue to fester in the global community.
Edit: After looking more at my original post in the thread. I can see how one might think it was harsh if it was responding to the OP's post. I was not responding to the OP's post. I was added to the conversation about having a game that is a "corrective lesson" by "user deleted". I suggested just reading People History and sitting around bashing white people which is what my US History college class was like.
Totally agree, and, also white.
If history humbles us, it means we've learned from it, heaven help our children if we don't
The idea is good, and I could see you branching it out with middle and south American tribes later as well.
Then again, I am always for historical games
.
Just keep the holy trinity away from the combat mechanics, when people start to heal eachothers in combat you take away any history and might as well go for a full fantasy game.
Correct me if real history is wrong, but isn't Redskins used to honor then-coach Lone Star Dietz, an American Sioux with Indians present during the naming?
I doubt you have experience or expertise on the subject Robokapp, but it is worthy to note the re-enforcement on the stereotypical viewpoint which again, is remenince of the influence of the media. There are over 3,000 different groups or sub-cultures in Africa alone. Are you claiming because one group wears tatoos that automatically they are into genital mulitation which is more possible belief or humanitarian issue?
Not every group follows the same rituals nor holds the same belief as others. Take it from someone who actually had the experience of speaking to residents from the country. Again, it is the belief that nothing but barbarism is what has been heavily reflected in video-games besides the inner-urban gang-man theme. Tatoos are cultural btw, not a sign of genital multilation. Yet why is it that game companies and media refuse to show anything but such? Again, why is there a heavy absence of other ethnicities and, if they are there, they are placed in a state of what would be considered backwardness?
As for Europe 600 years ago...
https://books.google.com/books?id=mIrf1uUTNCYC&lpg=PA243&ots=VTasqRAi-f&dq=When did whites appear 600 years ago&pg=PA242#v=onepage&q=When did whites appear 600 years ago&f=false
That would be a subject that exceeds the purpose of this thread...though if you like you are free to pm anytime about it. No censorship or propaganda machines included.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2013/12/18/redskins_the_debate_over_the_washington_football_team_s_name_incorrectly.html
I'll just be happy with someone making an mmo that isn't complete shit.
The players have been calling for Ultima Online redone with an experienced team and top notch graphics... Here we are, 18 fucking years later. Nothing. 18 years, and it is still the greatest mmo by leaps and bounds to ever be created.
Gaming would have to convert back into it's hobby-geek form before the transition into the e-sport/short-terms wide-audience sales department state its in today.
I wouldn't mind an updated Ultima Online or something a bit more unique than the generics out here today. Pump out a generic and get millions worth of dollars of investment based sorely on hype. No wonder why indie-games are sitting half-done yet so many have forked over cash enough to buy two cities.
lol Jeebus
No...history was one way, now is taught another. Now it's the white man that destroyed everything. If you read the real history, it's man destroying man. No color involved. More "native Americans" killed each other than any white man did. Then you have to go back to when the Northmen were here....then the other "Native Americans" before that.
But hey...don't read anything. Just let the revisionist history rule...srsly
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I think maybe OP has an over idealized idea of what tribal life was like, its not just what you see at indian fairs, beaded necklaces, arrowheads and whatnot.
Most of the so called peaceful tribes simply never missed an opportunity to sell out the more warlike tribes to their enemies. Some tribes were barbaric in their tactics. Many tribes still had sacrificial practices.Enslavement was common place to defeated tribes. Thats just talking about North American tribes, not even getting into the even more ritualistic tribes from the southern tip of Mexico down.Most tribes practiced a sort of benevolent shamanism, but some of them were more like Apahches.
Something like this would have to be done on a regional section of Indians, The southeastern Natchez indian tribe, the extinct and warlike Natchez being one of them would be one group, then the northeast tribes, shawnee, Miami, .. hell just use this map.
http://www.learner.org/interactives/historymap/indians.html
ONE region from North America would be a game larger than the Elder Scrolls online map. Each one has a slightly different culture group. Even the way one tribe builds a burial mound is different. Different languages in an area a few hundred miles across. And those are tribes in the same region. A Natchez tribal camp is a bit more open than a Choctaw camp was more militant a bit more on edge. But less is known about them they were eliminated after 1730 by the French settlers of the time They dispersed into other tribes but not the hated Choctaw indians who sold them out. Karma hit the Choctaw in the trail of tears, but to get a real feal for tribal live in North America you need to go pre colonial pre 1700s at least. Thats not accounting for probable Viking and Welsh visitors who explored the areas, obviously, since you had Welsh speaking tribes who dated themselves around 1100 or so, but Apparently the Welsh liked the Indians so much, they stayed and made tents, the Welsh were good guys apparently.
It doesn't need to be about the times Europeans arrived but can tell of the lore, life and struggles of different tribes. MMO's rarely are "real life" depictions anyway, so mixing the (I'm sure) rich myths into the game as "true" and having spirits and all and shamans etc ... I'm sure that could be interesting. Some were nomadic, some were settlers and farmers, there is enough variety for different game styles too, isn't it?
I'd be very interested to try something like this and maybe even learn something. I've been playing Xsyon too because I was interested in its slight Native American theme/undertone, but there wasn't much of it in the end ingame unfortunately.
Played: Pretty much any fantasy MMO, some did not even make it to release ...
Favorites: UO, EQ2, Vanguard, Wurm Online, Salem, ESO, Creativerse
Playing: ESO, Creativerse, Guild Wars 2
Anticipating: (sigh) ... maybe Ashes of Creation
I'm not sure I understand that sentiments origin. I'm personally from Europe and feel it is not demeaning at all if one is about medieval times of my country. Instead I feel it is interesting and a matter of attention/respect as long as the depiction is halfway accurate and not making the "indigenous" (my forefathers) look like idiots. Exposing my cultural roots in such a large projects for others to explore - I'm positive about it.
Would you maybe feel willing to explain your sentiment? There is no perception that the ignorance and lack of attention to your cultural background is a problem? I'm truly curious.
Played: Pretty much any fantasy MMO, some did not even make it to release ...
Favorites: UO, EQ2, Vanguard, Wurm Online, Salem, ESO, Creativerse
Playing: ESO, Creativerse, Guild Wars 2
Anticipating: (sigh) ... maybe Ashes of Creation
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/in-minnesota-native-americans-march-rally-to-protest-redskins-name/2014/11/02/fc38b8d0-6299-11e4-836c-83bc4f26eb67_story.html
http://www.changethemascot.org/
http://thinkprogress.org/sports/2014/12/29/3607157/hundreds-protest-redskins-name-outside-washingtons-final-home-game/
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/glendale/2014/10/12/glendale-redskins-protest/17155341/
Not sure what area you are from ...
Played: Pretty much any fantasy MMO, some did not even make it to release ...
Favorites: UO, EQ2, Vanguard, Wurm Online, Salem, ESO, Creativerse
Playing: ESO, Creativerse, Guild Wars 2
Anticipating: (sigh) ... maybe Ashes of Creation
Same area I am from....and you can post as many links as you want. The man that helped coin the phrase in sports today was a Native American. The team logo and name was helped designed by him. The trem is a positive to the Native Americans that know and matter...not the PC ones out for publicity.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Maybe not the best implementation
Don't get me wrong, I really like the Wabanaki story arch, but: a split and self-disputing tribe, living in a trailer park, giving up on their heritage and building a casino from the money they got from the government... maybe that's not the most friendly image of the present. Ok, we reunite them and they help fighting against the darkness, but still...
Same for their past (the Darkness War instance), back in the days when they were big and protected the land: they almost got wiped by the Mayans, and survived only because the vikings arrived in time... so that part has both the "tall white folks save the day" element, and also the "evil from SouthA try to wreck the world against the good guys in NorthA who are protecting it - but only with Eu help"
Maybe I'm wrong in this, it's hard to tell from this side of the pond... btw. it's amusing that Sonnac still calls them "the Colonies"
(/irony of course, before someone takes it too seriously)
What were they...if not Colonies back then? I'm curious....
They weren't states yet.....
Guess the "irony" is lost...
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."