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PvP MMO's that try to "break" the trinity have historically never done well, how will Crowfall be di
RebornDragon
Member UncommonPosts: 121
in Crowfall
Have only just recently heard about Crowfall but I see they want to be another game that tries to break from the "Holy Trinity" class system with no real dedicated healing, just limited "Support".
I've never seen one of the games do well, how will Crowfall be different?
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Which MMOs that have broken from the Trinity haven't done well? Can you list them because I'm sure there aren't that many. I can only think of one MMO that dared to break from the trinity and it's doing amazingly well.
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Also, how many PVP MMORPG's have really done well?
Or are you talking about MOBA's?
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The trinity doesn't really exist outside of PVE mmorpgs and for good reason, doesn't really make sense.
This recent update gives a bit more insight into their take on roles and worth the min or two it takes to read:
http://crowfall.com/#/news/the-legionnaire-tactical-support
Outside of grindy PVE game play, strict trinity roles don't happen nor work. MOBA, FPS, RTS, ARPG, turn based, any PVP within a trinity PVE game, D&D, movies, books, yadda yadda.
Simple fact that Crowfall isn't a PVE focused game and will almost entirely focus on group based PVP is why going with any sort of trinity setup wouldn't work, at least not where XYZ are mandatory to play. There will still be offense, defense, support, tanks, dps, healing, etc but hopefully not as mind numbing as some other games.
There are very few "PVP mmos" and really nothing like Crowfall which is a mix of several concepts and there really isn't a way to know if it will work or not without actually having it become a reality.
GW2 is probably the best example of a game that broke away from the trinity and as a strict PVP game (sPVP, WvW) it works for the most part. Isn't very complex nor is it supposed to be. They attempted to make it into some sort of eSport and it is what it is. Pick something you like and try to kill everything else. Unfortunately that doesn't translate well into PVE where the AI and content is total crap for the most part and roles of any kind aren't needed beyond DPS. Still can be fun, but there is very little teamwork or strategy compared to PVE content in higher end raiding or team based PVP games.
First I will define my "done well": Something that can pull in a million + subs and keep it for more than a year instead of just being a let down.
Game I feel didn't do well are GW2, Elder Scrolls, etc, etc. Take a look at the games that came out in the early era of MMO's, EQ, Asherons, etc... now look at the one that still has a decent sub - EQ. Top game in the world - WoW. Other mentions: EQ2.
I believe that vast majority of MMO's players just expect their to be roles and not just "Oh everyones a DPS!" There really is no breaking the holy trinity, those that tried are just basically glorified action games where you group with other DPS and see who's epeens bigger and none of them have done well that well at all.
I am just curious how Crowfall is going to be different and actually be able to pull it off and not just be a let down and collapse in numbers after a month.
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My thoughts exactly.
Right now are most PvP MMOs either trinity based or some kind of leveless system with FFA full loot.
MMOs (not Mobas) have far more PvE players than PvP players and that tells us that the current mechanics ain't good enough.
I don't know if Crowfall will be the one to really make MMO PvP popular but it is good that they are trying.
By that very same measure...
MMOs in fantasy settings have historically not done well.
MMOs with magic have historically not done well.
MMOs with raiding have historically not done well.
MMOs with crafting have historically not done well.
MMOs with gathering have historically not done well.
MMOs with quests have historically not done well.
Edit: Just glanced at your post history, and it seems you resurface now and then just to do a "this game will fail" post. Why are you here, actually?
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So... no MMORPG other than WoW?
As Crowfall will probably have more in common with MOBA's in the class/role department, probably should factor them into "doing well." WoW in comparison to League is quite a different picture.
Which games have you played that relied on the trinity in PVP? I've played all the games you listed and I wouldn't include any of them on the list.
Trinity is a PVE mechanic.
To me there is a difference between using the trinity and requiring it. A meaty class, damage dealer, and support usually is better than 3 of a kind, but doesn't mean it shouldn't be possible.
I agree that many expect or want roles beyond pure DPS and from what I see that is what ACE is going for. But it doesn't have to be one extreme or the other with everyone DPS (GW2) on one end and pigeon holed roles on the other (WoW PVE). Classes with flexible roles are a great middle ground that have rarely been done, especially well.
You can break from the trinity if you provide some other form of combat structure with depth.
I agree to the OP that some games that tried to break from the norm failed at this and ended up being a shallow pewpew-fest, but that doesn't mean everyone has to fail.
No current game. In real life you don't ignore tanks on the battlefield, they do serious dps. Anti tank infantry would target them first. A pvp analogue would be siege engines a group of players could control. Literally a tank and by mmo definition a tank.
Its crazy how people can only imagine what they already know.
You asked about PvP MMO's but your examples of successful MMO's with decent subs are all PvE MMO's, with PvP added as an afterthought, which is why they are Trinity based. In all of those games the Trinity is irrelevant in PvP because anyone worth playing PvP with knows you just kill healers first anyway, and tank's taunt abilities don't work in PvP, ignore them til last, they do shit for damage anyway.
That is why PvP MMO's don't need a Trinity. Having one just dictates the kill order more clearly. That being said, the main reason PvP based MMO's tend to fail is because people don't like getting ganked and the vast majority of MMO players prefer PvE. These are the players that will try the game and quite after being ganked a time or two. It has nothing to do with a Trinity at all.
How a game protects players from griefing/ganking will dictate how successful it will be far more than any other game mechanic. Examples of successful PvP MMO's that prove this:
DAoC - Clearly defined PvP areas, No FFA PvP but RvR, No Full Loot.
EVE - Security ratings on systems, Concord.
GW2 broke the 'trinity', has pvp and is doing incredibly well. Problem solved.
@op what do you mean by doing well..
Games like Darkfall, Mortal Online and so on are niche games and will never have wow numbers but they have done well enough in their own right for the type of game they are..
One of my quotes about GW2:
I didn't "zip" through the game. The highest char I have is a 26 ranger and everything has gotten obscenely repetitive. The exact same repetitive task over and over, the only difference is you don't talk to a quest giver first as the entire quest system is presented to you right upon entering an area. How is that much different? They should have learned that the 'events' system isn't a great breakthrough either (Rift)
I didn't buy the game for PvE anyway. I bought it because it promised an awesome PvP experiance which has turned out to be absolute crap! Fun after the first two nights but when you realize you're spending most of your time dead/'downed' as a melee and running back because ANet decided healing wasn't fun and wanted to break the 'holy trinity' it gets old, FAST. Believe it or not, some people enjoy the challenge of playing the support/healer. There is no real option for that type of gameplay in GW2. In fact there is very little strategic combat in GW2 because everything is over so fast. Either I'm died in 2 seconds or I've killed them in 2 seconds, how fun...not! It's a joke and feels like an FPS because it's completely about damage and numbers in WvWvW.
Anyway, you have your opinion and I have mine! The game sucks in terms of PvP! I don't care much about the PvE aspect but what I've seen is horribly repetitive.
Tell me it's still not the case, even now. Infact, don't bother, because I know it still is.
Crowfall gone be cash
atleast they try.
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Yeah, it takes time to become good in PvP but that have zero to do with the trinity, you would spend almost all your first month totally dead in the first Guildwars PvP and it have a dedicated healer.
There are support players in GW2 but you just didn't learn the new mechanics and played it like everyones just DPS... Noob combat is indeed over in 2 seconds but it isn't rare for me to get in fights for a minute or several. 2 good players fighting is rather a different experience.
Sorry, but PvP is hard to master and it should be so. The difference between GW2 and most other MMOs is that you can't outlevel and outgear people in the same way (you still get a large bonus for playing a max level character in ascended gear though but you wont auto win). In most other games you can just attack people way below you and autowin but I fail to see how this is fun.
You are surely right to not liking GW2, no problem with that, everyone have the right to enjoy or not enjoy a game but you never experienced the good stuff.
Of course there is a bad part to GW2s PvP but it have zero to do with trinity. Zerging takes away the fun stuff as it does in any game with massive PvP. I usually sneak around either alone or in a small team and jump people who seems fun to fight. Soliong I usually can take 2 not so experienced players or 3 noobs with my thief. As for melee I usually use it in 1 Vs 1 but use ranged to get any extra opponents down before I switch to melee when fighting more than 1 myself.
While I don't totally disagree with your view on GW2, Crowfall has nothing to do with it. On paper, Crowfall is full on team work focused with each role/class having a purpose and not solo-machines like GW2.
The lack of a full time healer might be shared between them, but that is the case for the majority of PVP parts mmorpgs and PVP oriented games in general. Sounds like CF will have classes that are able to fill that role much better than GW2, but not to the point where it is PVE style just standing in the back spamming 1 1 1 1 to keep HP boxes full.
Other games are able to have healers/support without it being a full on trinity and they have and are very popular. No reason CF won't have more in common with them than one specific game (GW2) that clearly does its own thing.
My favorite healers were probably WAR's and that was anything but the trinity setup, yet classes could straight heal if they wanted, but were much more potent actually engaged in the action and not just heal bots. DAoC's were also very fun. Beyond that, most popular mmorpgs are "balanced" around PVE or making everyone equal which neither applies to Crowfall.
I think you may need to redefine your 'done well', as under that definition you seem to be saying all western mmorpg's except wow haven't. Which also means that mmo's that have stuck with the trinity have also historically never done well.
That's actually not a bad description.
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