When it comes to guilds in MMOs the idea that one would have real life restrictions doesn't bother me, at all. If, for some reason, a member was a friend and I wanted to join them in the guild but could not because I didn't meet the "criteria" it would be up to my friend to leave so I could be in the same guild. There can be enough drama in guilds and if someone wants to start one that excludes certain people, any people, then let them. They will reap the benefits and consequences that come along with limiting membership.
Originally posted by Akulas Sorry to say but girls suck and cause problems the only solution is to remove either all the males or all the females from the situation. In saying that I've met afew girls from games irl before and been quite thankful that all the guilds I've been in from the past haven't been of only one gender.
Maybe stop hanging out with "girls" then and start meeting Women? Just a suggestion...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I assume you are all A Sexual blobs lacking gender, I dont care what you sound like on vent. Your a character in a game I play, I understand your also a real person and that person has a gender, but I also know your just the personality of a character in a game I play. I can ignore you or block you or remove you from the world. I have no idea if the person you are sharing with me is actually who you are in the real world and why the F@#% would I want to break that illusion?
Maybe because we have developed a relationship and become friends? Even still unless your coming over to my home for dinner some time soon your gender does not matter and none of this is important so I dont ever consider any of it. For all I know you are a brain in a vat, or a really scary good computer AI, or an alien from another reality pretending to be a person in a game. Stop thinking about this crap, it is screwing up your video game. You bring your views into the game, you choose what you see and experience in the game for the most part.
That being said, why is it not okay for a guild to recruit people who share similar world views to them? This is a game, they are a club in a game, your not required to have a guild, especially not that guild. My mom works for a nonprofit. They make you sign a statement of faith when you are hired agreeing to follow the rules in the bible as your denomination sees them, they go to church at work every week. It is not wrong of them to tell someone who is not a christian they cant work at the place. It makes sense for people to create an environment they feel safe in with people they share beliefs with. They serve people of all faiths and dont require people to convert or go to church to get help. They are not a hate group, they are the opposite.
I dont want to join an all white guild or all guy guild or a christian guild, for the record im a white christian male. I did see a guild in ESO however that was pro drug and while im anti stoner culture, I benefit from pot in a serious way. It was nice to join a guild (since you can join 5 or whatever) that I could talk about drugs in and not have to deal with drama about it. I just ignored the 60% of retard stoner kids in the guild.
Being an all white guild because you want to talk about shared cultural identity without worrying about being judged or thought of as racist is fine in my brain, I dont want to join but whatever. Using that guild to talk about other cultures or ethnic groups and hate on them is racist as shit and is not okay. Just because they only want girls or guys or whatever does not make them a hate group if that makes sense to people...
"My business, my rules"----an anti-LGBT business owner
"My country, my rules"---- Kim Jong Un
"My religion, my rules" ---ISIS
extreme examples yes, but it enhances the point that if discrimination is ok for one person/group, then it is ok for everyone.
P.S. let's not use the arguement that "it's only a game" if it is a real life factor being used as discrimination.
So let me see if i get this right.... .. .
You are comparing a group of female gamers wanting to exclude what is in essence a bounch of Troglodytes with the social grace of a bulldozer (yeah.. i have had the distinct "pleasure" of reading some of the "suggestions" and comments my GF have recived over the years playing differrent MMO´s... It is not a myth that some guys can´t think with the upstairs brain) and thus avoid being harrased with hate, oppresion and fundamental religious fanatism....?
And you ask why they might feel this need... 0_o
Yes i know it is hard to be excluded... And maybe you have not had to deal with it or the idea of it before... (but odds are that you have) but ask your self this... Who gains the most from this practise. The tiny group of male gamers who feel slighted by the idea that there is a place they can not "get in to" or or a larger group of female gamers who find security from what they feel is targeted herassment....?
And as i said before.... Exckusion and discrim ination are not always the same thing. Most (if not all) legal systems states that exclusion is ok if sufficient reason is put forth. (best example would be the age rating system in movie theathers and on adult entertainemnt... In essence a form of age discrimination.) And in this specific case a argument can be done that there is a problem with male players (not ALL, but some) harrassing (yes... asking someone out of the blue if they want to play with your reproductive organ can very well be constituted as just that) female players and that a solution (not a good one but a solution none the less) is for them to create a guild without male players and turn off public chat/stop PM´s.
So in short. Exclusion is not always the same as discrimination and in this case it is the only solution no matter how broken it is. (a bit like how a school transfer the bullied student rather then dealing with the root cause)
"My business, my rules"----an anti-LGBT business owner
"My country, my rules"---- Kim Jong Un
"My religion, my rules" ---ISIS
extreme examples yes, but it enhances the point that if discrimination is ok for one person/group, then it is ok for everyone.
P.S. let's not use the arguement that "it's only a game" if it is a real life factor being used as discrimination.
So let me see if i get this right.... .. .
You are comparing a group of female gamers wanting to exclude what is in essence a bounch of Troglodytes with the social grace of a bulldozer (yeah.. i have had the distinct "pleasure" of reading some of the "suggestions" and comments my GF have recived over the years playing differrent MMO´s... It is not a myth that some guys can´t think with the upstairs brain) and thus avoid being harrased with hate, oppresion and fundamental religious fanatism....?
And you ask why they might feel this need... 0_o
Yes i know it is hard to be excluded... And maybe you have not had to deal with it or the idea of it before... (but odds are that you have) but ask your self this... Who gains the most from this practise. The tiny group of male gamers who feel slighted by the idea that there is a place they can not "get in to" or or a larger group of female gamers who find security from what they feel is targeted herassment....?
And as i said before.... Exckusion and discrim ination are not always the same thing. Most (if not all) legal systems states that exclusion is ok if sufficient reason is put forth. (best example would be the age rating system in movie theathers and on adult entertainemnt... In essence a form of age discrimination.) And in this specific case a argument can be done that there is a problem with male players (not ALL, but some) harrassing (yes... asking someone out of the blue if they want to play with your reproductive organ can very well be constituted as just that) female players and that a solution (not a good one but a solution none the less) is for them to create a guild without male players and turn off public chat/stop PM´s.
So in short. Exclusion is not always the same as discrimination and in this case it is the only solution no matter how broken it is. (a bit like how a school transfer the bullied student rather then dealing with the root cause)
that is the problem with using extreme examples, people try to cloud the issue by saying "I can't believe you used that example"
focus less on the examples and more on the following statement, "if it is alright for one group to discriminate, then it is ok for everyone"
and for years in the US black people were "excluded" from white schools. . .yet it is rightfully regarded as wrongful discrimination today.
you say exclusion is different from discrimination but one is the product of another.
a person cannot get a job because of their gender, the employer excluded them from their workforce. . .discrimination
a Charity Organization only gives help to certain people excludes people that do not fit their criteria. . .discrimination
and so forth. . .
If one is excluded from something based on any factor then that person is being discriminated against because of that factor.
We spend too much time trying to tell other people what they should believe and then trying to punish them for not believing in a politically correct manner.
Guilds are not necessarily meant to be some all-inclusive group. If they were, why would they exist if everyone on the server was in it? Guilds function to set you APART from the rest of the server. To say " THIS IS US". Trying to control who people identify with is just... sad.
Yet here is a post telling what to believe.
Hypocritical.
Not at all. I have no issue if YOU believe YOUR guild should be an all-inclusive group. None at all. I don't even have an issue if you THINK someone else having an all XYZ guild is bad. I DO have an issue if you feel justified in forcing the other person to adjust his XYZ guild to meet YOUR expectations of social balance.
Personally I have never joined a guild that restricted admission by any criteria other than age, but I would not presume to TELL others they couldn't group based on whatever they liked.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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a person cannot get a job because of their gender, the employer excluded them from their workforce. . .discrimination
a Charity Organization only gives help to certain people excludes people that do not fit their criteria. . .discrimination
and so forth. . .
If one is excluded from something based on any factor then that person is being discriminated against because of that factor.
How about the company my mom works for that is a christian not for profit, they are exclusive in their hiring practices but not exclusive in the work they do. They create sustainable infrastructure around the world, regardless of who your god is, they do not at any point push their christian beliefs or values or stories on anyone. They are not discriminating against anyone, they simply want to be able to go to work and church at the same time and you go to church with people of the same faith as you.
I just got done watching last week tonight with john oliver and he did a bit about this very issue. Not all people on the internet are horrible people who use the internet to do horrible things, but some people are. If I wanted to talk about my god in a video game (which I dont) wouldnt it make sense for me to join a christian guild, and not take my religion into a casual guild? If people want a safe place to talk among similar people who have similar life experiences that is not wrong, it is exclusive. They are not taking anything from any other group, or actively hating on anyone. Personally I think the gender issue in games will not be solved by girls making all girl guilds. Even if some day in the future gender is no longer an issue why wouldnt some girls want an all girl guild still? Maybe they want to talk about life from the perspective of a girl and want to be able to do that in the game, why is it wrong for people to want to be around people with similar life experiences?
We can make this about anything, how is a group of white men wanting to create a guild to talk about their shared ethnic identity bad or wrong? It isnt, it often quickly becomes wrong, but the simple act of creating an all white or all black or all hispanic or whatever guild should not offend anyone. I see people from korea or russia or brazil all the time spamming for people that speak their language and culture to join, I have never seen anyone get offended by it... People need to stop inventing reasons to be offended, nothing discriminatory about exclusiveness. Whats next, guilds arent allowed to consider your gear or play skill because its to exclusive, what criteria could be created that is not "discriminatory" to some one if you consider it from every angle imaginable... Again nothing discriminatory about an all girl guild, unless they are trying to make it so men arent allowed to play the game at all, but thats not what we are talking about lol
We spend too much time trying to tell other people what they should believe and then trying to punish them for not believing in a politically correct manner.
Guilds are not necessarily meant to be some all-inclusive group. If they were, why would they exist if everyone on the server was in it? Guilds function to set you APART from the rest of the server. To say " THIS IS US". Trying to control who people identify with is just... sad.
Yet here is a post telling what to believe.
Hypocritical.
Not at all. I have no issue if YOU believe YOUR guild should be an all-inclusive group. None at all. I don't even have an issue if you THINK someone else having an all XYZ guild is bad. I DO have an issue if you feel justified in forcing the other person to adjust his XYZ guild to meet YOUR expectations of social balance.
Personally I have never joined a guild that restricted admission by any criteria other than age, but I would not presume to TELL others they couldn't group based on whatever they liked.
It just seems that most that are against 'PC' 'thought control' are not shy in dictating to others themselves.
I just have a problem with the over use of 'PC' tbh... It has become as meaningless as 'entitled' (and usually over used by the same kind of person).
PC usually just means being open, showing respect, and having a little empathy. I just don't have a problem with any of that.
Back to MMORPGs though, I also don't see anyone 'forcing' anyone to make certain types of guilds... Where does this happen? Is there one game that has rules on this? I have never encountered any dev that tries to control guild requirements because of so called 'PC'. Why do you have an issue with something that does not exist as far as I can see?
But that all aside, why is age ok for you to restrict membership on, but sex isn't? Are all over 18s cool calm people, and all under 18s raging lunatics? Not having a pop, just interested in where different people draw different lines.
Originally posted by Akulas Sorry to say but girls suck and cause problems
I agree.
Now would a SJW or pseudo-intellectual that took a psychology class, approve? No.
Didn't get the bite from me that you were looking for, eh? :P
You agree that girls 'suck' and 'cause problems'..?
Wow.
Says the guy that believes how these girls should to play their game and how to associate with others. Taking away choice. You say doing so makes them ignorant, intolerant, etc etc. You said so twice in this thread.
You clearly have misunderstood what I have been saying in the thread.
Yes, I do believe that people do themselves no favours by segregating themselves from people that are different to them, as you say openly that you do. Yes I do believe that the only way for women (and other groups) to change anything is to be part of everything. Yes, I do think that mixing with a wide spectrum of types makes you a less ignorant and broader, more interesting, person. All this is true.
But would I force that? Lol, no, not even if I had that power. Anyone has the freedom to choose to make whatever guild they like.
Nothing I have said in this thread has been about taking away choice. In fact I have said a couple of times that isn't what I would want at all. Quote me below from my other posts to disprove me and support your assertion please.
But you... You say that you don't like socialising with people that are different to yourself, and that you think females suck and are a problem.
It just seems that most that are against 'PC' 'thought control' are not shy in dictating to others themselves.
I just have a problem with the over use of 'PC' tbh... It has become as meaningless as 'entitled' (and usually over used by the same kind of person).
PC usually just means being open, showing respect, and having a little empathy. I just don't have a problem with any of that.
Back to MMORPGs though, I also don't see anyone 'forcing' anyone to make certain types of guilds... Where does this happen? Is there one game that has rules on this? I have never encountered any dev that tries to control guild requirements because of so called 'PC'. Why do you have an issue with something that does not exist as far as I can see?
But that all aside, why is age ok for you to restrict membership on, but sex isn't? Are all over 18s cool calm people, and all under 18s raging lunatics? Not having a pop, just interested in where different people draw different lines.
That might be what you think PC means, but to many people PC means conforming to rules about what is ok to speak or display in public dependant upon the moral/political/racial/sexual beliefs at the time. Those rules are subject to change with any shifts in those beliefs. Deviation from those rules subjects people to legal/social/economical sanctions from society and government.
It just seems that most that are against 'PC' 'thought control' are not shy in dictating to others themselves.
I just have a problem with the over use of 'PC' tbh... It has become as meaningless as 'entitled' (and usually over used by the same kind of person).
PC usually just means being open, showing respect, and having a little empathy. I just don't have a problem with any of that.
Back to MMORPGs though, I also don't see anyone 'forcing' anyone to make certain types of guilds... Where does this happen? Is there one game that has rules on this? I have never encountered any dev that tries to control guild requirements because of so called 'PC'. Why do you have an issue with something that does not exist as far as I can see?
But that all aside, why is age ok for you to restrict membership on, but sex isn't? Are all over 18s cool calm people, and all under 18s raging lunatics? Not having a pop, just interested in where different people draw different lines.
That might be what you think PC means, but to many people PC means conforming to rules about what is ok to speak or display in public dependant upon the moral/political/racial/sexual beliefs at the time. Those rules are subject to change with any shifts in those beliefs. Deviation from those rules subjects people to legal/social/economical sanctions from society and government.
Well, just show respect to others around you and have a little empathy, and all this really stops being an issue. I grew up in the 70s, and, trust me I would never want to go back to that quagmire of ignorance and hate towards different groups.
That's all I will say on this now though, because it could easily derail the main thread topic about guilds. I am happy to talk about it via PM though
that is the problem with using extreme examples, people try to cloud the issue by saying "I can't believe you used that example"
focus less on the examples and more on the following statement, "if it is alright for one group to discriminate, then it is ok for everyone"
and for years in the US black people were "excluded" from white schools. . .yet it is rightfully regarded as wrongful discrimination today.
you say exclusion is different from discrimination but one is the product of another.
a person cannot get a job because of their gender, the employer excluded them from their workforce. . .discrimination
a Charity Organization only gives help to certain people excludes people that do not fit their criteria. . .discrimination
and so forth. . .
If one is excluded from something based on any factor then that person is being discriminated against because of that factor.
So why did you choose to use such extreme examples... ? Feels a tad bit unproductive.
Now i never said exclusion can not be a tool used to discriminate people... As you pointed out it is and has been, But that does not by default make them interchangeable.
Let us take more down to earth examples (as my previous example seem to be lost on you...
Let us list a few exclusions that make sense...
Medical license
Drivers license
Firearms license
All these three are excluding you from something... All three based on keeping the society safe. Not to mention the hundreds of other times your are excluded without anyone calling it discrimination.
Any way... I am not saying that seclusion is the answer to sexism and harassment... Neither that one should attibute to malice that whitch can simply be explained by pants on head stupid...
But the matter of the fact is... We have a group (actually we have several.... even without bringing intersectionality in to it... ) that do not feel safe while engaging in this glorious pasttime of ours... So in order to feel safe and and be able to enjoy the games they choose to remove the potential problem (you know... Like how a lot of guilds force you to have a short QnA before being admitted to figure out if you are a *bleeeeeep* or not.. Why all the *bleeeeep* of the world have not risen against this discrimnation of their right to be asshats i do not know)
In short....
This is less like a private practis refusing to treat homosexual people and more along the lines of a pub refusing to let anyone wearing a rival team´s colors enter due to the VERY high potentiall for a fight. Any way... Like it or not... Until the point were male troglodytes have learned to behave and not think with the little head, i fully support that one part of our community choose to not intract with said troglodytes... For you and me that does unfortunatley equal that we will be excluded from some guilds... But it is such a tiny little % of the number of guilds spread over the gaming community that it does not even register.
Originally posted by Bensor Have seen girls-only guilds in TESO, and it didn't bother me. Was kinda amused, only wondered how I could infiltrate them xD
Now still my curious mind... Why would you like to do that...?
Originally posted by Bensor Have seen girls-only guilds in TESO, and it didn't bother me. Was kinda amused, only wondered how I could infiltrate them xD
Now still my curious mind... Why would you like to do that...?
In real life there are no female Rangers, or Seals there is a reason for this? Look at History, there is today a PC mentality that is or are lifestyle choices that are not the norm and is Showing up now in the Military, it will not be to long now before you see Chairman of The Joint Chiefs named Catelin. As for Female only Guilds I have not seen any and would make fun of them if I did.
" Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Those Who Would Threaten It " MAGA
I once got asked if the woman I ERPed was played by a man or a woman. I responded that I was too polite to ask.
Frankly, I find the whole idea of player gender issues in MMORPGs to be quite a sad indictment of this medium. Because it shows me how little we care about the characters we create and the worlds we build. We care more about the Teamspeak drama than the dramas we can play out on the screen.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I could care less what people do with their guilds, it's a video game. If you cant separate your real life and feelings from the game then you will cause yourself unnecessary stress. Find a guild you enjoy or don't join one.
Originally posted by CrazyCraftLady I could care less what people do with their guilds, it's a video game. If you cant separate your real life and feelings from the game then you will cause yourself unnecessary stress. Find a guild you enjoy or don't join one.
Originally posted by Elsabolts As for Female only Guilds I have not seen any and would make fun of them if I did.
And this is why girls create girls-only guilds. You'll only show that men are immature, and that they are right to create these guilds.
Only they don't, and your own comment is equally lacking in maturity.
The only 'female only' guilds you will find in MMO's tend to be made up of predominantly male players, its about the characters, not the person playing the game, and its usually RP related, theme based guilds are nothing new, in Everquest i was a member of a guild that was made up of monks, and only monks, its no different, and its not in any way discriminatory, and if players create female guilds, its just people having fun, not discrimination, and has no bearing on a players lack of maturity, or otherwise. The only times people have an issue with that kind of thing, its usually because they have some kind of agenda.
Comments
Maybe stop hanging out with "girls" then and start meeting Women? Just a suggestion...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I assume you are all A Sexual blobs lacking gender, I dont care what you sound like on vent. Your a character in a game I play, I understand your also a real person and that person has a gender, but I also know your just the personality of a character in a game I play. I can ignore you or block you or remove you from the world. I have no idea if the person you are sharing with me is actually who you are in the real world and why the F@#% would I want to break that illusion?
Maybe because we have developed a relationship and become friends? Even still unless your coming over to my home for dinner some time soon your gender does not matter and none of this is important so I dont ever consider any of it. For all I know you are a brain in a vat, or a really scary good computer AI, or an alien from another reality pretending to be a person in a game. Stop thinking about this crap, it is screwing up your video game. You bring your views into the game, you choose what you see and experience in the game for the most part.
That being said, why is it not okay for a guild to recruit people who share similar world views to them? This is a game, they are a club in a game, your not required to have a guild, especially not that guild. My mom works for a nonprofit. They make you sign a statement of faith when you are hired agreeing to follow the rules in the bible as your denomination sees them, they go to church at work every week. It is not wrong of them to tell someone who is not a christian they cant work at the place. It makes sense for people to create an environment they feel safe in with people they share beliefs with. They serve people of all faiths and dont require people to convert or go to church to get help. They are not a hate group, they are the opposite.
I dont want to join an all white guild or all guy guild or a christian guild, for the record im a white christian male. I did see a guild in ESO however that was pro drug and while im anti stoner culture, I benefit from pot in a serious way. It was nice to join a guild (since you can join 5 or whatever) that I could talk about drugs in and not have to deal with drama about it. I just ignored the 60% of retard stoner kids in the guild.
Being an all white guild because you want to talk about shared cultural identity without worrying about being judged or thought of as racist is fine in my brain, I dont want to join but whatever. Using that guild to talk about other cultures or ethnic groups and hate on them is racist as shit and is not okay. Just because they only want girls or guys or whatever does not make them a hate group if that makes sense to people...
So let me see if i get this right.... .. .
You are comparing a group of female gamers wanting to exclude what is in essence a bounch of Troglodytes with the social grace of a bulldozer (yeah.. i have had the distinct "pleasure" of reading some of the "suggestions" and comments my GF have recived over the years playing differrent MMO´s... It is not a myth that some guys can´t think with the upstairs brain) and thus avoid being harrased with hate, oppresion and fundamental religious fanatism....?
And you ask why they might feel this need... 0_o
Yes i know it is hard to be excluded... And maybe you have not had to deal with it or the idea of it before... (but odds are that you have) but ask your self this... Who gains the most from this practise. The tiny group of male gamers who feel slighted by the idea that there is a place they can not "get in to" or or a larger group of female gamers who find security from what they feel is targeted herassment....?
And as i said before.... Exckusion and discrim ination are not always the same thing. Most (if not all) legal systems states that exclusion is ok if sufficient reason is put forth. (best example would be the age rating system in movie theathers and on adult entertainemnt... In essence a form of age discrimination.) And in this specific case a argument can be done that there is a problem with male players (not ALL, but some) harrassing (yes... asking someone out of the blue if they want to play with your reproductive organ can very well be constituted as just that) female players and that a solution (not a good one but a solution none the less) is for them to create a guild without male players and turn off public chat/stop PM´s.
So in short. Exclusion is not always the same as discrimination and in this case it is the only solution no matter how broken it is. (a bit like how a school transfer the bullied student rather then dealing with the root cause)
This have been a good conversation
that is the problem with using extreme examples, people try to cloud the issue by saying "I can't believe you used that example"
focus less on the examples and more on the following statement, "if it is alright for one group to discriminate, then it is ok for everyone"
and for years in the US black people were "excluded" from white schools. . .yet it is rightfully regarded as wrongful discrimination today.
you say exclusion is different from discrimination but one is the product of another.
a person cannot get a job because of their gender, the employer excluded them from their workforce. . .discrimination
a Charity Organization only gives help to certain people excludes people that do not fit their criteria. . .discrimination
and so forth. . .
If one is excluded from something based on any factor then that person is being discriminated against because of that factor.
Not at all. I have no issue if YOU believe YOUR guild should be an all-inclusive group. None at all. I don't even have an issue if you THINK someone else having an all XYZ guild is bad. I DO have an issue if you feel justified in forcing the other person to adjust his XYZ guild to meet YOUR expectations of social balance.
Personally I have never joined a guild that restricted admission by any criteria other than age, but I would not presume to TELL others they couldn't group based on whatever they liked.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
How about the company my mom works for that is a christian not for profit, they are exclusive in their hiring practices but not exclusive in the work they do. They create sustainable infrastructure around the world, regardless of who your god is, they do not at any point push their christian beliefs or values or stories on anyone. They are not discriminating against anyone, they simply want to be able to go to work and church at the same time and you go to church with people of the same faith as you.
I just got done watching last week tonight with john oliver and he did a bit about this very issue. Not all people on the internet are horrible people who use the internet to do horrible things, but some people are. If I wanted to talk about my god in a video game (which I dont) wouldnt it make sense for me to join a christian guild, and not take my religion into a casual guild? If people want a safe place to talk among similar people who have similar life experiences that is not wrong, it is exclusive. They are not taking anything from any other group, or actively hating on anyone. Personally I think the gender issue in games will not be solved by girls making all girl guilds. Even if some day in the future gender is no longer an issue why wouldnt some girls want an all girl guild still? Maybe they want to talk about life from the perspective of a girl and want to be able to do that in the game, why is it wrong for people to want to be around people with similar life experiences?
We can make this about anything, how is a group of white men wanting to create a guild to talk about their shared ethnic identity bad or wrong? It isnt, it often quickly becomes wrong, but the simple act of creating an all white or all black or all hispanic or whatever guild should not offend anyone. I see people from korea or russia or brazil all the time spamming for people that speak their language and culture to join, I have never seen anyone get offended by it... People need to stop inventing reasons to be offended, nothing discriminatory about exclusiveness. Whats next, guilds arent allowed to consider your gear or play skill because its to exclusive, what criteria could be created that is not "discriminatory" to some one if you consider it from every angle imaginable... Again nothing discriminatory about an all girl guild, unless they are trying to make it so men arent allowed to play the game at all, but thats not what we are talking about lol
It just seems that most that are against 'PC' 'thought control' are not shy in dictating to others themselves.
I just have a problem with the over use of 'PC' tbh... It has become as meaningless as 'entitled' (and usually over used by the same kind of person).
PC usually just means being open, showing respect, and having a little empathy. I just don't have a problem with any of that.
Back to MMORPGs though, I also don't see anyone 'forcing' anyone to make certain types of guilds... Where does this happen? Is there one game that has rules on this? I have never encountered any dev that tries to control guild requirements because of so called 'PC'. Why do you have an issue with something that does not exist as far as I can see?
But that all aside, why is age ok for you to restrict membership on, but sex isn't? Are all over 18s cool calm people, and all under 18s raging lunatics? Not having a pop, just interested in where different people draw different lines.
You clearly have misunderstood what I have been saying in the thread.
Yes, I do believe that people do themselves no favours by segregating themselves from people that are different to them, as you say openly that you do. Yes I do believe that the only way for women (and other groups) to change anything is to be part of everything. Yes, I do think that mixing with a wide spectrum of types makes you a less ignorant and broader, more interesting, person. All this is true.
But would I force that? Lol, no, not even if I had that power. Anyone has the freedom to choose to make whatever guild they like.
Nothing I have said in this thread has been about taking away choice. In fact I have said a couple of times that isn't what I would want at all. Quote me below from my other posts to disprove me and support your assertion please.
But you... You say that you don't like socialising with people that are different to yourself, and that you think females suck and are a problem.
Stop typing for a second and think about that.
That might be what you think PC means, but to many people PC means conforming to rules about what is ok to speak or display in public dependant upon the moral/political/racial/sexual beliefs at the time. Those rules are subject to change with any shifts in those beliefs. Deviation from those rules subjects people to legal/social/economical sanctions from society and government.
Well, just show respect to others around you and have a little empathy, and all this really stops being an issue. I grew up in the 70s, and, trust me I would never want to go back to that quagmire of ignorance and hate towards different groups.
That's all I will say on this now though, because it could easily derail the main thread topic about guilds. I am happy to talk about it via PM though
So why did you choose to use such extreme examples... ? Feels a tad bit unproductive.
Now i never said exclusion can not be a tool used to discriminate people... As you pointed out it is and has been, But that does not by default make them interchangeable.
Let us take more down to earth examples (as my previous example seem to be lost on you...
Let us list a few exclusions that make sense...
Medical license
Drivers license
Firearms license
All these three are excluding you from something... All three based on keeping the society safe. Not to mention the hundreds of other times your are excluded without anyone calling it discrimination.
Any way... I am not saying that seclusion is the answer to sexism and harassment... Neither that one should attibute to malice that whitch can simply be explained by pants on head stupid...
But the matter of the fact is... We have a group (actually we have several.... even without bringing intersectionality in to it... ) that do not feel safe while engaging in this glorious pasttime of ours... So in order to feel safe and and be able to enjoy the games they choose to remove the potential problem (you know... Like how a lot of guilds force you to have a short QnA before being admitted to figure out if you are a *bleeeeeep* or not.. Why all the *bleeeeep* of the world have not risen against this discrimnation of their right to be asshats i do not know)
In short....
This is less like a private practis refusing to treat homosexual people and more along the lines of a pub refusing to let anyone wearing a rival team´s colors enter due to the VERY high potentiall for a fight. Any way... Like it or not... Until the point were male troglodytes have learned to behave and not think with the little head, i fully support that one part of our community choose to not intract with said troglodytes... For you and me that does unfortunatley equal that we will be excluded from some guilds... But it is such a tiny little % of the number of guilds spread over the gaming community that it does not even register.
This have been a good conversation
Now still my curious mind... Why would you like to do that...?
This have been a good conversation
For fun, challenge, and curiosity
MAGA
And this is why girls create girls-only guilds. You'll only show that men are immature, and that they are right to create these guilds.
Well... That was ironic...
This have been a good conversation
I fully support guilds that only select others of similar interests...
But alas, it's another one of those threads with the OP enforcing a disagreeably negative opinion on others and leaves.
I once got asked if the woman I ERPed was played by a man or a woman. I responded that I was too polite to ask.
Frankly, I find the whole idea of player gender issues in MMORPGs to be quite a sad indictment of this medium. Because it shows me how little we care about the characters we create and the worlds we build. We care more about the Teamspeak drama than the dramas we can play out on the screen.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Got the point!
Only they don't, and your own comment is equally lacking in maturity.
The only 'female only' guilds you will find in MMO's tend to be made up of predominantly male players, its about the characters, not the person playing the game, and its usually RP related, theme based guilds are nothing new, in Everquest i was a member of a guild that was made up of monks, and only monks, its no different, and its not in any way discriminatory, and if players create female guilds, its just people having fun, not discrimination, and has no bearing on a players lack of maturity, or otherwise. The only times people have an issue with that kind of thing, its usually because they have some kind of agenda.