Dead man walking. The MMO genre is just withering on the vine at this point. Even pre-released MMOs now are losing their hype and followers before they even get to experience the first couple months of a pop-n-drop of players.
Originally posted by Blinkenn Dead man walking. The MMO genre is just withering on the vine at this point. Even pre-released MMOs now are losing their hype and followers before they even get to experience the first couple months of a pop-n-drop of players.
Honestly, I don't see that as a bad thing.
It means that general would-be MMO customers are finally tired of playing the "same game" with slightly different mechanics for the 50th time.
Or they will not waste their time on a half finished game (let alone pay for it).
Or they will no longer play something "just because it is free".
And companies that have been relying on people to do one of those 3 things are going out of business or getting out of the MMO business. Again, which I see as a good thing.
In a few years, there will be a new crop of companies that "rediscover" making a full fledged MMO and things will get better. In the mean time, the are plenty of good/great single player/co-op games (including RPGs) to take up the slack until then.
In every industry there are downturns, in quality and sector performance, and this one is no different.
Originally posted by meonthissite Wildstar. That's all I've got to say. Everytime I hear the nonsense that mmo gamers out there want harder content or more raids or anything else that modern mmo gamers actually DON'T want in the future this will be my response. Wildstar. Because nothing says "you're full of crap" like not being able to support the one game in modern history that was made just for your community. Wildstar.
Wildstar was a piece of shit. The engine was shit, the graphics ("art" LOL) were horrible and above all else the combat was the worst psuedo-action crap I've ever seen. It wasn't anything to do about the actual game style itself, it was already dead from the beginning for all these reasons.
I for one don't care about raiding or this other garbage either. People act as if that's the only style of PvE in an MMO. If I hear another person say "end game" I'm going to slap them. But hey, people are pretty much nothing more than sheep at this point as the genre is so flooded with casual, non-gamer morons anyway.
End Game
Wildstar is hardly shit. It really showed how shitty folks can be when the game practically holds your fucking hand and you die on the same shit over and over again holding yourself and the group back. Your 1st dungeon is no a walk in the park. Unlike some other MMO's where you just go in a face roll everything, what a boring fucking concept.
Maybe you are that guy that couldn't hack moving out of Telegraphs or dance through discs. Maybe you just don't play with others.
I've been with PFO since the kickstarter, and yes it is a work in progress, and that's exactly what it is supposed to be right now. Last Wednesday Ryan Dancey had a dev chat with the players where we could ask him any questions we wanted and learned all sorts of info about what is coming out in the game. These talks with developers happen every week. I can't think of one other game where whenever I have a question, a dev is almost always available to answer me, or to listen to my feedback. It's really cool to see as a player.
One thing Ryan said during the talk was something he had said previously, and that at this stage of the game, PFO is NOT meant to compete or compare to other MMOs. There has been a small ammount of marketing for PFO, because the game as it is right now is for players who loves the ideas behind the game and see the long term potential. When the game reaches release, that means that Goblinworks will have PFO in a spot they believe it can compete with other MMOs in the market, and they will ramp up selling the game.
I hope that any of you, including the guy who reviewed this will take that into consideration, and if you aren't liking the game now but are kind of interested, to try again when the game is more ready for a larger player base. Have a good one!
I've been with PFO since the kickstarter, and yes it is a work in progress, and that's exactly what it is supposed to be right now. Last Wednesday Ryan Dancey had a dev chat with the players where we could ask him any questions we wanted and learned all sorts of info about what is coming out in the game. These talks with developers happen every week. I can't think of one other game where whenever I have a question, a dev is almost always available to answer me, or to listen to my feedback. It's really cool to see as a player.
One thing Ryan said during the talk was something he had said previously, and that at this stage of the game, PFO is NOT meant to compete or compare to other MMOs. There has been a small ammount of marketing for PFO, because the game as it is right now is for players who loves the ideas behind the game and see the long term potential. When the game reaches release, that means that Goblinworks will have PFO in a spot they believe it can compete with other MMOs in the market, and they will ramp up selling the game.
I hope that any of you, including the guy who reviewed this will take that into consideration, and if you aren't liking the game now but are kind of interested, to try again when the game is more ready for a larger player base. Have a good one!
You seem like you legitimately enjoy the game, are not a paid shill (despite this being your first post), and want to see this title do well. That's fine, more power to you.
But at the same time, you can not criticize people that hold what the CEO HIMSELF has said and what is actually being done with the product.
The CEO came out and said specifically that PFO is not in alpha/beta and is "complete" (for certain values of complete, I guess). At the same time they continue to charge $15/mo, the same as EvE or WoW.
Do you think people will not compare PFO to other games when they charge the same or more than others for a much lesser experience?
Do you think people are not going to speak up when a CEO says the game is not in alpha/beta, when half or more of the stuff in there does not work or isn't in yet?
They are charging a $15 sub fee, and the CEO says the game is not in alpha, as such the game deserves to be reviewed for what it is right now, because it being sold and charged for, right now.
It is not hate/trolling to call a company or game out for the things they do and actually officially say, and it is not hate to give a half finished game charging full price a bad review, either.
I've been with PFO since the kickstarter, and yes it is a work in progress, and that's exactly what it is supposed to be right now. Last Wednesday Ryan Dancey had a dev chat with the players where we could ask him any questions we wanted and learned all sorts of info about what is coming out in the game. These talks with developers happen every week. I can't think of one other game where whenever I have a question, a dev is almost always available to answer me, or to listen to my feedback. It's really cool to see as a player.
One thing Ryan said during the talk was something he had said previously, and that at this stage of the game, PFO is NOT meant to compete or compare to other MMOs. There has been a small ammount of marketing for PFO, because the game as it is right now is for players who loves the ideas behind the game and see the long term potential. When the game reaches release, that means that Goblinworks will have PFO in a spot they believe it can compete with other MMOs in the market, and they will ramp up selling the game.
I hope that any of you, including the guy who reviewed this will take that into consideration, and if you aren't liking the game now but are kind of interested, to try again when the game is more ready for a larger player base. Have a good one!
Hasn't Ryan also said the game was complete and ready for people to join, that it is not missing features just polish? He has stated this game is not in any kinda alpha or beta stage and is ready to play I thought? Why is he charging for people to help him create his game and why should I ever give him my money if he thinks this is how to run a game? Even when this game is completed and such which we all know it never will be but lets say some day it is ready for me to play, why would I support this game?
This guy is charging for people to play his game and that means he should be willing to have it judged as it is now, the only good thing I have ever heard about this game is that some day it will be good and do all kinda revolutionary things, Ive got a bookmark folder full of 30 other games with better payment models in development right now saying the same or similar things... I can think of a few games right now that swear they are the spiritual sucessor to SWG... This game company/dev team are already doing questionable things. The guy thinks its okay most of his players come from homes making more then 70k or whatever, he doesnt think his payment model will negatively affect him, he wants wallet warriors and big spenders and is already giving them favors from what I understand and have heard people complain about lol screw this guy and this game lol
PFO said that they wouldn't charge a subscription until they had a MVP (minimum viable product).
Unfortunately their definition of MVP is a much lower standard than mine - and from reading various boards it is a lower standard than the average gamer.
I keep a cursory tab on this game and if it makes it to my definition of MVP I will definitely try it (especially since I am sitting on 4 months of paid game time and a destiny twin). At their current pace I expect that to be somewhere around 2018 - 2019 assuming no hiccups and it survives that long.
This is so frustrating--if you say you're going to review the game, then actually play the darn the game so you can review it. This is a settlement vs. settlement PvP game--everything in the game is built around being a member of a real settlement and working with/against other settlements. It's the whole point of the game, and by his own admission, the reviewer logged in for a couple of hours and never joined a real settlement. He poked around the tutorial settlement and it wasn't fun: wow, what a in-depth review.
Graphics are bad? No joke--you can see that at character creation. But the gameplay is dull? What? Did you even try, man? I mean yea, if you're a button masher and don't understand the combat mechanics, and how conditions and exploits work--if you're just mashing buttons, because well, in other games you just mash buttons in a cycle, then yea, I guess combat is dull. And yea if you didn't level up your character, and realize how complex and rich (and open) the character development system is, and how cool synergies are, you'd never know that. And how about, you know, actual gameplay? Because if the reviewer had actually joined a settlement, and been with other players in PvP or PvE, he'd experience stuff like how crowd control works. My wizard can't do crowd control on her own--I can mash some buttons I guess and do some damage, but if I'm with a fighter or rogue character, and they can put certain conditions on mobs or players, and then I exploit them--oops! Sleepytime for bad guys.
What's so irritating about this is the reviewer admits that the game is incredibly rich and deep: "I began to grasp these systems, I also glimpsed a bit of what lies at the heart of Pathfinder Online, and, honestly, I like what I see. Combat is deeply nuanced and original, forsaking the era of hotkey rotations for a system that requires thoughtful use of abilities that exploit various states you can place your foes in." and "The leveling system is also staggeringly robust. In a similar vein to EVE Online, every hour you earn a set rate of experience points that you can then spend on feats that augment your character both actively and passively. Though the system obviously benefits veterans over new players, the lack of levels also leads me to believe that, like EVE Online, a newer player isn't inherently a worse player."
And then he admits he didn't actually play the game: "But my problem, as it stands with the several hours I've invested thus far." Wow man--what a pro. You played the tutorial, and that was the basis of your review. You just plopped in for a couple hours, and then instead of saying something like, "I only play instant-action games like Diablo, so instead of just mailing it in and BS'ing you guys, I got to say I didn't actually bother to play the game, so as a professional, I can't really offer a review." I mean, dude, you didn't have anything to say about crafting, and that's the best part of the friggin' game! It's the only crafting besides SWG I have felt compelled to play. But you can only craft in a social context, as part of a real settlement.
I totally get that a deep, rich, complex game you need to play, and play in a social context with other people, isn't everyone's cup of tea. But it is ridiculous to pretend to review a game on a different genre's standards. This would be like me reviewing a MOBA and saying "This is a terrible game--I played for two weeks and was unable to build a single structure, there's no crafting system, and you are FORCED to PVP I hate that!!!"
Originally posted by wmmarcellino This is so frustrating--if you say you're going to review the game, then actually play the darn the game so you can review it. This is a settlement vs. settlement PvP game--everything in the game is built around being a member of a real settlement and working with/against other settlements. It's the whole point of the game, and by his own admission, the reviewer logged in for a couple of hours and never joined a real settlement. He poked around the tutorial settlement and it wasn't fun: wow, what a in-depth review.
Graphics are bad? No joke--you can see that at character creation. But the gameplay is dull? What? Did you even try, man? I mean yea, if you're a button masher and don't understand the combat mechanics, and how conditions and exploits work--if you're just mashing buttons, because well, in other games you just mash buttons in a cycle, then yea, I guess combat is dull. And yea if you didn't level up your character, and realize how complex and rich (and open) the character development system is, and how cool synergies are, you'd never know that. And how about, you know, actual gameplay? Because if the reviewer had actually joined a settlement, and been with other players in PvP or PvE, he'd experience stuff like how crowd control works. My wizard can't do crowd control on her own--I can mash some buttons I guess and do some damage, but if I'm with a fighter or rogue character, and they can put certain conditions on mobs or players, and then I exploit them--oops! Sleepytime for bad guys.
What's so irritating about this is the reviewer admits that the game is incredibly rich and deep: "I began to grasp these systems, I also glimpsed a bit of what lies at the heart of Pathfinder Online, and, honestly, I like what I see. Combat is deeply nuanced and original, forsaking the era of hotkey rotations for a system that requires thoughtful use of abilities that exploit various states you can place your foes in." and "The leveling system is also staggeringly robust. In a similar vein to EVE Online, every hour you earn a set rate of experience points that you can then spend on feats that augment your character both actively and passively. Though the system obviously benefits veterans over new players, the lack of levels also leads me to believe that, like EVE Online, a newer player isn't inherently a worse player."
And then he admits he didn't actually play the game: "But my problem, as it stands with the several hours I've invested thus far." Wow man--what a pro. You played the tutorial, and that was the basis of your review. You just plopped in for a couple hours, and then instead of saying something like, "I only play instant-action games like Diablo, so instead of just mailing it in and BS'ing you guys, I got to say I didn't actually bother to play the game, so as a professional, I can't really offer a review." I mean, dude, you didn't have anything to say about crafting, and that's the best part of the friggin' game! It's the only crafting besides SWG I have felt compelled to play. But you can only craft in a social context, as part of a real settlement.
I totally get that a deep, rich, complex game you need to play, and play in a social context with other people, isn't everyone's cup of tea. But it is ridiculous to pretend to review a game on a different genre's standards. This would be like me reviewing a MOBA and saying "This is a terrible game--I played for two weeks and was unable to build a single structure, there's no crafting system, and you are FORCED to PVP I hate that!!!"
Hey.. I get it. you and a few other guys actually like the "game" that they have produced and are charging for. You are in the overwhelming minority though. If you think his review does not reflect the view of 99.9% of the gaming public it is YOU that are out of step... not the reviewer.
It is also interesting that your post is an EXACT cut and paste from different users on multiple sites. At least some of them are here:
The fact that I post at more than one site is irrelevant to the substance of my argument. Please stop flaming/ and attacking posters, and stick to the substance of the thread.
I've been with PFO since the kickstarter, and yes it is a work in progress, and that's exactly what it is supposed to be right now. Last Wednesday Ryan Dancey had a dev chat with the players where we could ask him any questions we wanted and learned all sorts of info about what is coming out in the game. These talks with developers happen every week. I can't think of one other game where whenever I have a question, a dev is almost always available to answer me, or to listen to my feedback. It's really cool to see as a player.
One thing Ryan said during the talk was something he had said previously, and that at this stage of the game, PFO is NOT meant to compete or compare to other MMOs. There has been a small ammount of marketing for PFO, because the game as it is right now is for players who loves the ideas behind the game and see the long term potential. When the game reaches release, that means that Goblinworks will have PFO in a spot they believe it can compete with other MMOs in the market, and they will ramp up selling the game.
I hope that any of you, including the guy who reviewed this will take that into consideration, and if you aren't liking the game now but are kind of interested, to try again when the game is more ready for a larger player base. Have a good one!
You seem like you legitimately enjoy the game, are not a paid shill (despite this being your first post), and want to see this title do well. That's fine, more power to you.
But at the same time, you can not criticize people that hold what the CEO HIMSELF has said and what is actually being done with the product.
The CEO came out and said specifically that PFO is not in alpha/beta and is "complete" (for certain values of complete, I guess). At the same time they continue to charge $15/mo, the same as EvE or WoW.
Do you think people will not compare PFO to other games when they charge the same or more than others for a much lesser experience?
Do you think people are not going to speak up when a CEO says the game is not in alpha/beta, when half or more of the stuff in there does not work or isn't in yet?
They are charging a $15 sub fee, and the CEO says the game is not in alpha, as such the game deserves to be reviewed for what it is right now, because it being sold and charged for, right now.
It is not hate/trolling to call a company or game out for the things they do and actually officially say, and it is not hate to give a half finished game charging full price a bad review, either.
Originally posted by wmmarcellino This is so frustrating--if you say you're going to review the game, then actually play the darn the game so you can review it. This is a settlement vs. settlement PvP game--everything in the game is built around being a member of a real settlement and working with/against other settlements. It's the whole point of the game, and by his own admission, the reviewer logged in for a couple of hours and never joined a real settlement. He poked around the tutorial settlement and it wasn't fun: wow, what a in-depth review.
Graphics are bad? No joke--you can see that at character creation. But the gameplay is dull? What? Did you even try, man? I mean yea, if you're a button masher and don't understand the combat mechanics, and how conditions and exploits work--if you're just mashing buttons, because well, in other games you just mash buttons in a cycle, then yea, I guess combat is dull. And yea if you didn't level up your character, and realize how complex and rich (and open) the character development system is, and how cool synergies are, you'd never know that. And how about, you know, actual gameplay? Because if the reviewer had actually joined a settlement, and been with other players in PvP or PvE, he'd experience stuff like how crowd control works. My wizard can't do crowd control on her own--I can mash some buttons I guess and do some damage, but if I'm with a fighter or rogue character, and they can put certain conditions on mobs or players, and then I exploit them--oops! Sleepytime for bad guys.
What's so irritating about this is the reviewer admits that the game is incredibly rich and deep: "I began to grasp these systems, I also glimpsed a bit of what lies at the heart of Pathfinder Online, and, honestly, I like what I see. Combat is deeply nuanced and original, forsaking the era of hotkey rotations for a system that requires thoughtful use of abilities that exploit various states you can place your foes in." and "The leveling system is also staggeringly robust. In a similar vein to EVE Online, every hour you earn a set rate of experience points that you can then spend on feats that augment your character both actively and passively. Though the system obviously benefits veterans over new players, the lack of levels also leads me to believe that, like EVE Online, a newer player isn't inherently a worse player."
And then he admits he didn't actually play the game: "But my problem, as it stands with the several hours I've invested thus far." Wow man--what a pro. You played the tutorial, and that was the basis of your review. You just plopped in for a couple hours, and then instead of saying something like, "I only play instant-action games like Diablo, so instead of just mailing it in and BS'ing you guys, I got to say I didn't actually bother to play the game, so as a professional, I can't really offer a review." I mean, dude, you didn't have anything to say about crafting, and that's the best part of the friggin' game! It's the only crafting besides SWG I have felt compelled to play. But you can only craft in a social context, as part of a real settlement.
I totally get that a deep, rich, complex game you need to play, and play in a social context with other people, isn't everyone's cup of tea. But it is ridiculous to pretend to review a game on a different genre's standards. This would be like me reviewing a MOBA and saying "This is a terrible game--I played for two weeks and was unable to build a single structure, there's no crafting system, and you are FORCED to PVP I hate that!!!"
Dude, the game is Gunk. I couldn't even make it an hour before I uninstalled it was that bad, and this is coming from someone who managed to play 2 hours in Scarlet Blade before doing the same. Hell, I even managed to get 2 characters in Echo of Soul, the most generic and bland WoW clone I've ever played, to level 10 before removing it from my Steam library.
We've all seen this show before. Vanguard. Star Citizen. The only ones that "like" PO are people like you who have some sort of investment in it and need it to succeed to justify your investment. Superfans so often fail to see, or don't want to see, the failings of their chosen game. For some reason, they see the game's failure as their own failure.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Ginaz, you feel free to play the game for 2 minutes, and decide you don't like it--no problem with that
I have a problem with someone who represents themself as a gaming journalist writing a review based on spending a total of two hours in tutorial town.
Umm.. Bill Murphy TRIED to play the game for months but was honest and said " can hardly bring myself to play this" . You can see his earlier News Posts on his progress as he played.
There is no need to try and disparage the reviewer or the site simply because HIS review is in line with what 99.999% of the gaming population feels. No, not everyone else is "playing it wrong". Simply look at the PFO forum on here. No matter how many times one of the diehard fans tries to post about some great new feature", nobody cares, as reflected in the 1-2 responses such posts get. There is a free trial now. Anyone who cares can and probably HAS already loaded up the game by now to see for themselves. Just as no review is going to change YOUR mind about the game, nothing you post is going to change those actual experiences the MULTIPLE reviewers from the site have had in the game. Trying to publicly disparage them is just going to boomerang.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Niche is fine and Wildstar offered nothing to the hardcore PvP sandbox community which is the audience which would support PFO if it delivered on it's original promises.
The issue is you are seeing other titles such as Albion, Crowfall, Life is Feudal etc. coming out and targeting this niche much more effectively than PFO.
PFO is crap, and its competitors aren't. It's hard to get behind a game that says "Just wait, things will get better and our single massive server model + tab targeting give us the greatest potential for mass scale combat!" When you can see they don't have the subs to even pay their current development team once the kickstarter money runs out and the largest gathering of players they have ever seen was a 43 player stress test.
Even if massive combat was my primary concern, PFO lacks the COMMUNITY for it to ever be a reality, and why sit and wait for a game that by all indications will go belly up before delivering half what they promised?
I backed Shroud of the Avatar, and have downloaded multiple client builds and tried to play. Each time, after an hour or two, I'm like "this sux" and uninstall the game. As a consumer that's entirely appropriate. But if I was representing myself as a media member, and wrote a "review" based on not playing the game, it would be unethical.
I admire Bill's honesty--he didn't want to play the game, acknowledged he had no basis to put a score on it, and deleted his review. Pretty ethical behavior in my book.
I want the same, very simple thing from Steven: either play the game so that you can write a review, or don't.
I actually like many of the things this game says it will offer. I am put off by the payment model and then the guy said that he knew that the sub was not a problem for anyone who would actually play his game and he wasnt concerned about it and that is when I decided 100% this guy was never going to get a dime from me. I want an open world sandbox game and so much of what this game says it will offer appeals to me but the guys running this game and running off at the mouth have made me not only not want to support it but take every opportunity to slam on it for being a pile of garbage, which even its players agree it is, absent the potential it has and the deeper game play you need a community to enjoy, a community this game doesnt really have...
I backed Shroud of the Avatar, and have downloaded multiple client builds and tried to play. Each time, after an hour or two, I'm like "this sux" and uninstall the game. As a consumer that's entirely appropriate. But if I was representing myself as a media member, and wrote a "review" based on not playing the game, it would be unethical.
I admire Bill's honesty--he didn't want to play the game, acknowledged he had no basis to put a score on it, and deleted his review. Pretty ethical behavior in my book.
I want the same, very simple thing from Steven: either play the game so that you can write a review, or don't.
You seem to not understand what was written on a number of fronts.
You claim that this "Review" is invalid because the reviewer only played for two hours.
This was not Steven's "Review". It was CLEARLY titled as his "FIRST IMPRESSIONS:
He said he played for "several hours". You turned that into two hours in an attempt to disparage and discredit the writer.
Obviously you are blatantly wrong on both points and both can be easily proven by simply scrolling up and READING the article.
I am sorry if that does not match your perception of the game but to continue to try and disparage the site and the writers because their perception is closer to 99.99% of the gaming population that does NOT like the game is simply wrong. Continuing to try and criticize the FIRST IMPRESSIONS of the writer is just going to keep boomeranging on the game.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
For those who replied to me, thank for you continuing the discussion! My intention with my post was to give my take on why I am accepting of that game, and possibly offer another lens to view what Goblinworks is trying to do. I did not intend at all to accuse anyone of trolling, I'm sorry if I gave that impression.
As far as the game and what your 15 dollars a month gives you... I agree that compared to other games, PFO as a game right now is not equal to what you get from other games as far as content goes, by a long shot in most areas. What PFO does give you for your 15 a month is access to the Crowforging process, which gives you a chance to help shape the game and talk to the developers all the time.
Imagine one of your favorite developers decides to make a new MMO based on one of your favorite IPs, and they decide to let everybody who wants to, to play the game before it's ready for release for a regular subscription fee, have nearly unlimited access to developers, able to vote in polls on which direction to take different game systems and make suggestions that shape how the game turns out. That's why alot of us are playing. Others are playing because we see the long term potential and we want to get in on the ground floor. I'm playing for a mix of the two; part fanboy (I the Pathfinder IP and how they kept 3.5 alive) and part MMO sandbox love (Reading the Goblinworks blogs lays out the structure for a game i'd LOVE to play).
For most people, PFO as it is now is not good enough, and I can't fault you for that. For many of us playing now, we know and feel how special PFO is right now as a collaborative experience with the developers. We are helping shape a game, warts and all we're excited to see how it turns out.
I have been negative about this game and I have given it second and third chances. I admit, I'm vested in this game for another 18 months of pre paid time. I play it because I'd feel I truly wasted my money if I dont, but more so because a few members of my guild are playing it to keep our settlement afloat.
Do any of us really enjoy the game? No. There is nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing that thus game does well. Why do we still try to make it work? Because we are stubborn to a fault, and dedicated to each other.
Here is my biggest problem with Goblin Works and it's development of PFO. They have a test server, and with every new patch follows days of not being able to do major things that we could before the patch. This Friday's much praised patch was supposedly tested on the test server, and it launched and no one can train new skills in their settlements until they fix that on Monday.
I really wish did not have to be so condescending, but..... Ryan Dancey, do you have any understanding what at test server is used for? I know you are not a game developer yourself, but you do claim to have some familiarity with actually developing a computer game, and more specifically an MMO.
This is the kind of amateur hour kind of stuff that gets slaughtered on a forum like this. Your game in now being reviewed by another reviewer, and the timing of this SNAFU could not be worse.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
I play it because I'd feel I truly wasted my money if I dont
Do any of us really enjoy the game? No. There is nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing that thus game does well. Why do we still try to make it work? Because we are stubborn to a fault, and dedicated to each other.
That is because they are not selling you on a game, they are selling you on real time progression like Eve has. They know a small niche of gamers will pay 15$/month for a minimum viable product in hopes of getting an advantage over the people waiting for it to be a payable, fun game.
The CEO was in marketing for CCP and knows how many players remained subbed to Eve for it's real time progression. The problem is having a game where players would rather park a character to level up and play something else is not good game design.
I play it because I'd feel I truly wasted my money if I dont
Do any of us really enjoy the game? No. There is nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing that thus game does well. Why do we still try to make it work? Because we are stubborn to a fault, and dedicated to each other.
That is because they are not selling you on a game, they are selling you on real time progression like Eve has. They know a small niche of gamers will pay 15$/month for a minimum viable product in hopes of getting an advantage over the people waiting for it to be a payable, fun game.
The CEO was in marketing for CCP and knows how many players remained subbed to Eve for it's real time progression. The problem is having a game where players would rather park a character to level up and play something else is not good game design.
Perhaps I should have been more clear. I would not be subscribing to PFO with new money, and not at $15.00 per month.
I got my initial 24 months through the Kickstarter at less than $10.00 per month. I don't anticipate PFO actually lasting another 18 months or beyond that, for one simple reason. PFO is being built on the Unity 4 gaming engine, and in current gaming standards, it is already outdated. In another 18 months it will look like playing a game on a Playstation 1.
MVP should not have started with an obsolete game engine. You don't build a race car with a four-cylinder engine, to compete with turbo charged V8s.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
Comments
Even pre-released MMOs now are losing their hype and followers before they even get to experience the first couple months of a pop-n-drop of players.
Honestly, I don't see that as a bad thing.
It means that general would-be MMO customers are finally tired of playing the "same game" with slightly different mechanics for the 50th time.
Or they will not waste their time on a half finished game (let alone pay for it).
Or they will no longer play something "just because it is free".
And companies that have been relying on people to do one of those 3 things are going out of business or getting out of the MMO business. Again, which I see as a good thing.
In a few years, there will be a new crop of companies that "rediscover" making a full fledged MMO and things will get better. In the mean time, the are plenty of good/great single player/co-op games (including RPGs) to take up the slack until then.
In every industry there are downturns, in quality and sector performance, and this one is no different.
End Game
Wildstar is hardly shit. It really showed how shitty folks can be when the game practically holds your fucking hand and you die on the same shit over and over again holding yourself and the group back. Your 1st dungeon is no a walk in the park. Unlike some other MMO's where you just go in a face roll everything, what a boring fucking concept.
Maybe you are that guy that couldn't hack moving out of Telegraphs or dance through discs. Maybe you just don't play with others.
Was thinking the exact same thing.
I've been with PFO since the kickstarter, and yes it is a work in progress, and that's exactly what it is supposed to be right now. Last Wednesday Ryan Dancey had a dev chat with the players where we could ask him any questions we wanted and learned all sorts of info about what is coming out in the game. These talks with developers happen every week. I can't think of one other game where whenever I have a question, a dev is almost always available to answer me, or to listen to my feedback. It's really cool to see as a player.
One thing Ryan said during the talk was something he had said previously, and that at this stage of the game, PFO is NOT meant to compete or compare to other MMOs. There has been a small ammount of marketing for PFO, because the game as it is right now is for players who loves the ideas behind the game and see the long term potential. When the game reaches release, that means that Goblinworks will have PFO in a spot they believe it can compete with other MMOs in the market, and they will ramp up selling the game.
I hope that any of you, including the guy who reviewed this will take that into consideration, and if you aren't liking the game now but are kind of interested, to try again when the game is more ready for a larger player base. Have a good one!
You seem like you legitimately enjoy the game, are not a paid shill (despite this being your first post), and want to see this title do well. That's fine, more power to you.
But at the same time, you can not criticize people that hold what the CEO HIMSELF has said and what is actually being done with the product.
The CEO came out and said specifically that PFO is not in alpha/beta and is "complete" (for certain values of complete, I guess). At the same time they continue to charge $15/mo, the same as EvE or WoW.
Do you think people will not compare PFO to other games when they charge the same or more than others for a much lesser experience?
Do you think people are not going to speak up when a CEO says the game is not in alpha/beta, when half or more of the stuff in there does not work or isn't in yet?
They are charging a $15 sub fee, and the CEO says the game is not in alpha, as such the game deserves to be reviewed for what it is right now, because it being sold and charged for, right now.
It is not hate/trolling to call a company or game out for the things they do and actually officially say, and it is not hate to give a half finished game charging full price a bad review, either.
Hasn't Ryan also said the game was complete and ready for people to join, that it is not missing features just polish? He has stated this game is not in any kinda alpha or beta stage and is ready to play I thought? Why is he charging for people to help him create his game and why should I ever give him my money if he thinks this is how to run a game? Even when this game is completed and such which we all know it never will be but lets say some day it is ready for me to play, why would I support this game?
This guy is charging for people to play his game and that means he should be willing to have it judged as it is now, the only good thing I have ever heard about this game is that some day it will be good and do all kinda revolutionary things, Ive got a bookmark folder full of 30 other games with better payment models in development right now saying the same or similar things... I can think of a few games right now that swear they are the spiritual sucessor to SWG... This game company/dev team are already doing questionable things. The guy thinks its okay most of his players come from homes making more then 70k or whatever, he doesnt think his payment model will negatively affect him, he wants wallet warriors and big spenders and is already giving them favors from what I understand and have heard people complain about lol screw this guy and this game lol
PFO said that they wouldn't charge a subscription until they had a MVP (minimum viable product).
Unfortunately their definition of MVP is a much lower standard than mine - and from reading various boards it is a lower standard than the average gamer.
I keep a cursory tab on this game and if it makes it to my definition of MVP I will definitely try it (especially since I am sitting on 4 months of paid game time and a destiny twin). At their current pace I expect that to be somewhere around 2018 - 2019 assuming no hiccups and it survives that long.
Graphics are bad? No joke--you can see that at character creation. But the gameplay is dull? What? Did you even try, man? I mean yea, if you're a button masher and don't understand the combat mechanics, and how conditions and exploits work--if you're just mashing buttons, because well, in other games you just mash buttons in a cycle, then yea, I guess combat is dull. And yea if you didn't level up your character, and realize how complex and rich (and open) the character development system is, and how cool synergies are, you'd never know that. And how about, you know, actual gameplay? Because if the reviewer had actually joined a settlement, and been with other players in PvP or PvE, he'd experience stuff like how crowd control works. My wizard can't do crowd control on her own--I can mash some buttons I guess and do some damage, but if I'm with a fighter or rogue character, and they can put certain conditions on mobs or players, and then I exploit them--oops! Sleepytime for bad guys.
What's so irritating about this is the reviewer admits that the game is incredibly rich and deep:
"I began to grasp these systems, I also glimpsed a bit of what lies at the heart of Pathfinder Online, and, honestly, I like what I see. Combat is deeply nuanced and original, forsaking the era of hotkey rotations for a system that requires thoughtful use of abilities that exploit various states you can place your foes in."
and
"The leveling system is also staggeringly robust. In a similar vein to EVE Online, every hour you earn a set rate of experience points that you can then spend on feats that augment your character both actively and passively. Though the system obviously benefits veterans over new players, the lack of levels also leads me to believe that, like EVE Online, a newer player isn't inherently a worse player."
And then he admits he didn't actually play the game: "But my problem, as it stands with the several hours I've invested thus far." Wow man--what a pro. You played the tutorial, and that was the basis of your review. You just plopped in for a couple hours, and then instead of saying something like, "I only play instant-action games like Diablo, so instead of just mailing it in and BS'ing you guys, I got to say I didn't actually bother to play the game, so as a professional, I can't really offer a review." I mean, dude, you didn't have anything to say about crafting, and that's the best part of the friggin' game! It's the only crafting besides SWG I have felt compelled to play. But you can only craft in a social context, as part of a real settlement.
I totally get that a deep, rich, complex game you need to play, and play in a social context with other people, isn't everyone's cup of tea. But it is ridiculous to pretend to review a game on a different genre's standards. This would be like me reviewing a MOBA and saying "This is a terrible game--I played for two weeks and was unable to build a single structure, there's no crafting system, and you are FORCED to PVP I hate that!!!"
Do the RIGHT THING: come be a Paladin with us! http://ozemsvigil.guildlaunch.com/
Hey.. I get it. you and a few other guys actually like the "game" that they have produced and are charging for. You are in the overwhelming minority though. If you think his review does not reflect the view of 99.9% of the gaming public it is YOU that are out of step... not the reviewer.
It is also interesting that your post is an EXACT cut and paste from different users on multiple sites. At least some of them are here:
http://www.geekspeaker.com/?p=1536
http://www.reddit.com/r/PathfinderOnline/comments/3cvkqy/pathfinder_online_down_but_not_out/
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Do the RIGHT THING: come be a Paladin with us! http://ozemsvigil.guildlaunch.com/
@Burntvet Thank you! You beat me to it.
Dude, the game is Gunk. I couldn't even make it an hour before I uninstalled it was that bad, and this is coming from someone who managed to play 2 hours in Scarlet Blade before doing the same. Hell, I even managed to get 2 characters in Echo of Soul, the most generic and bland WoW clone I've ever played, to level 10 before removing it from my Steam library.
We've all seen this show before. Vanguard. Star Citizen. The only ones that "like" PO are people like you who have some sort of investment in it and need it to succeed to justify your investment. Superfans so often fail to see, or don't want to see, the failings of their chosen game. For some reason, they see the game's failure as their own failure.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Ginaz, you feel free to play the game for 2 minutes, and decide you don't like it--no problem with that
I have a problem with someone who represents themself as a gaming journalist writing a review based on spending a total of two hours in tutorial town.
Do the RIGHT THING: come be a Paladin with us! http://ozemsvigil.guildlaunch.com/
As someone that spent far far more than 2 hours in the game I felt his review was spot on.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Umm.. Bill Murphy TRIED to play the game for months but was honest and said " can hardly bring myself to play this" . You can see his earlier News Posts on his progress as he played.
There is no need to try and disparage the reviewer or the site simply because HIS review is in line with what 99.999% of the gaming population feels. No, not everyone else is "playing it wrong". Simply look at the PFO forum on here. No matter how many times one of the diehard fans tries to post about some great new feature", nobody cares, as reflected in the 1-2 responses such posts get. There is a free trial now. Anyone who cares can and probably HAS already loaded up the game by now to see for themselves. Just as no review is going to change YOUR mind about the game, nothing you post is going to change those actual experiences the MULTIPLE reviewers from the site have had in the game. Trying to publicly disparage them is just going to boomerang.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The issue is you are seeing other titles such as Albion, Crowfall, Life is Feudal etc. coming out and targeting this niche much more effectively than PFO.
PFO is crap, and its competitors aren't. It's hard to get behind a game that says "Just wait, things will get better and our single massive server model + tab targeting give us the greatest potential for mass scale combat!" When you can see they don't have the subs to even pay their current development team once the kickstarter money runs out and the largest gathering of players they have ever seen was a 43 player stress test.
Even if massive combat was my primary concern, PFO lacks the COMMUNITY for it to ever be a reality, and why sit and wait for a game that by all indications will go belly up before delivering half what they promised?
I backed Shroud of the Avatar, and have downloaded multiple client builds and tried to play. Each time, after an hour or two, I'm like "this sux" and uninstall the game. As a consumer that's entirely appropriate. But if I was representing myself as a media member, and wrote a "review" based on not playing the game, it would be unethical.
I admire Bill's honesty--he didn't want to play the game, acknowledged he had no basis to put a score on it, and deleted his review. Pretty ethical behavior in my book.
I want the same, very simple thing from Steven: either play the game so that you can write a review, or don't.
Do the RIGHT THING: come be a Paladin with us! http://ozemsvigil.guildlaunch.com/
You seem to not understand what was written on a number of fronts.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Ditto.
For those who replied to me, thank for you continuing the discussion! My intention with my post was to give my take on why I am accepting of that game, and possibly offer another lens to view what Goblinworks is trying to do. I did not intend at all to accuse anyone of trolling, I'm sorry if I gave that impression.
As far as the game and what your 15 dollars a month gives you... I agree that compared to other games, PFO as a game right now is not equal to what you get from other games as far as content goes, by a long shot in most areas. What PFO does give you for your 15 a month is access to the Crowforging process, which gives you a chance to help shape the game and talk to the developers all the time.
Imagine one of your favorite developers decides to make a new MMO based on one of your favorite IPs, and they decide to let everybody who wants to, to play the game before it's ready for release for a regular subscription fee, have nearly unlimited access to developers, able to vote in polls on which direction to take different game systems and make suggestions that shape how the game turns out. That's why alot of us are playing. Others are playing because we see the long term potential and we want to get in on the ground floor. I'm playing for a mix of the two; part fanboy (I
the Pathfinder IP and how they kept 3.5 alive) and part MMO sandbox love (Reading the Goblinworks blogs lays out the structure for a game i'd LOVE to play).
For most people, PFO as it is now is not good enough, and I can't fault you for that. For many of us playing now, we know and feel how special PFO is right now as a collaborative experience with the developers. We are helping shape a game, warts and all we're excited to see how it turns out.
I have been negative about this game and I have given it second and third chances. I admit, I'm vested in this game for another 18 months of pre paid time. I play it because I'd feel I truly wasted my money if I dont, but more so because a few members of my guild are playing it to keep our settlement afloat.
Do any of us really enjoy the game? No. There is nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing that thus game does well. Why do we still try to make it work? Because we are stubborn to a fault, and dedicated to each other.
Here is my biggest problem with Goblin Works and it's development of PFO. They have a test server, and with every new patch follows days of not being able to do major things that we could before the patch. This Friday's much praised patch was supposedly tested on the test server, and it launched and no one can train new skills in their settlements until they fix that on Monday.
I really wish did not have to be so condescending, but..... Ryan Dancey, do you have any understanding what at test server is used for? I know you are not a game developer yourself, but you do claim to have some familiarity with actually developing a computer game, and more specifically an MMO.
This is the kind of amateur hour kind of stuff that gets slaughtered on a forum like this. Your game in now being reviewed by another reviewer, and the timing of this SNAFU could not be worse.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
That is because they are not selling you on a game, they are selling you on real time progression like Eve has. They know a small niche of gamers will pay 15$/month for a minimum viable product in hopes of getting an advantage over the people waiting for it to be a payable, fun game.
The CEO was in marketing for CCP and knows how many players remained subbed to Eve for it's real time progression. The problem is having a game where players would rather park a character to level up and play something else is not good game design.
Perhaps I should have been more clear. I would not be subscribing to PFO with new money, and not at $15.00 per month.
I got my initial 24 months through the Kickstarter at less than $10.00 per month. I don't anticipate PFO actually lasting another 18 months or beyond that, for one simple reason. PFO is being built on the Unity 4 gaming engine, and in current gaming standards, it is already outdated. In another 18 months it will look like playing a game on a Playstation 1.
MVP should not have started with an obsolete game engine. You don't build a race car with a four-cylinder engine, to compete with turbo charged V8s.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....