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[Column] General: Do MMOs Need Grind?
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
Player Versus Player is MMORPG’s bi-weekly debate column where two writers go head to head to debate the issues you care about. This week, we’re talking about grind. We all hate monotonously killing mobs but is it possible that the end is more important than the means? This week we ask, do MMOs need grind?
Read more of Chris Coke's and Ryan Getchell's Player vs Player: Do MMOs Need Grind?
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Comments
I totally agree that the formula used by Blizzard in WoW and its various clones, is well past its Best By Date.
But until game design evolves, grinding is simply going to be part of the MMO experience. Quality content is one of the largest major expenses involved.
Until the technology involved in games like No Mans Sky evolves to allow auto creation of content, faster than it can be consumed, thats simply the way its going to be, in PvE games.
I don't like it either, but thats the reality we have to face at this point.
Well, I think we know why no other MMORPG's employed this mechanic after EQ1.
IMO, player characters can be powerful, but they never should be gods.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think Ryan is over using the word "grind". He's broadly painting all leveling activities with that brush, and it simply isn't accurate. I'm not going to define what grind is, as every gamer knows what it entails, but we all have personal tolerances of when fun becomes overly repetitive and tiresome. I feel that Ryan is saying all leveling processes fall under that label, and is using it as a basis for his thesis that these actions are outdated.
I disagree. Progression is a good thing, whether it's vertical or horizontal. It's satisfying to gain levels, earn new skills, and build those skills up. You could apply that to crafting, or finding gear that upgrades you in some way, or whatever else that instills the sense of improvement from a previous state. Ryan is suggesting that process should be re-vamped, but I don't see how you remove progression from a game without taking a crapload of fun away from the experience. Isn't the major premise in MMO's the act of making a level 0 character and creating/fleshing out this avatar through your adventures?
Agreed and never understood the mentality of that type of player .. Whats the purpose its like kicking kittens at that point ... Worthless, unchallenging , unfun .. mechanic , with self serving motivation , and /or farming to take advantage of content , which i also disagree wtih .. Items shouldnt drop for folks playing like that to sell to noob toons...Or trade to there alts .... loser gameplay imo
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Try playing eden eternal or the other craps that come out of the game's developer X-Legends..
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
What other people call grind, I call "playing the game".
Sure, some activity is dull and tedious. But if you remove the dull and tedious, you remove a developer intended time sink.
I think of it as an endurance challenge.
Do all MMOs need endurance challenge? No, of course not. Some players find it inconvenient and inappropriate for their playstyle.
However there is a trade off. A game goes from "Damn I had to kill 20,000 boars to go up 3 levels" to "Damn I've been at level cap 3 weeks now and all I do is run these same dungeons over and over".
I agree with a lot of what Ryan says. In modern theme parks, going from quest hub to quest hub is grinding, and while the story, lore, and mechanics may feel interesting at first, they usually begin to wear on me the more I progress.
For instance, as I leveled my character in ESO, which is considered by many to have one of the best leveling experiences in modern MMO's, I started to realize how repetitive and predictable the gameplay had become. This feeling was further bolstered by the lack of challenge and difficulty in the game's PvE content, and as a result I simply could not reach cap due to sheer boredom.
In fact, I would say this is quite a common occurrence whenever I try to play a new MMO. As such, I am now a firm believer that MMORPG's should have a relatively quick leveling process that forgoes the use of five trillion quests to get to cap, similar to how SWTOR's Epic Story XP Boost works. Not only that, developers need to find ways to introduce the human element more predominately in the leveling experience because that is the single greatest source of unpredictability. One of the reasons why I prefer playing on PvP servers is because you never know when to expect an encounter with another player, and this keeps the game fresh.
There aren't enough resources to churn out never ending content.
Even if you had some system that would create content on the fly eventually it would be come the same.
grind is a state of mind.
name the game play system you love most in any game. Now repeat that every time you log in. That's "grind".
You like to craft? grind. combat? grind. pvp? grind.
or you can say "I like to craft I like combat I like pvp, etc" and enjoy the fact that you get to do it and there's lots of it.
Otherwise there is not a game that I know of that doesn't have a grind when looked at in a cynical way.
Myst? damn puzzles grind!
doom? all I do is shoot and shoot again grind!
The problem with mmo's is that they realy are a social type of game and the "grind" becomes game play when you have too interact with other people. But there are so many solo centric mmo's that players are literally logging in and expecting brilliant single player games when that's not what is being created.
MMO's are about taking the game play and adding a social element. And I'm a soloer and I still have a "social element" during play.
There pretty much isn't anything I can see that could be put into an mmo that can't be said to be a "grind" by someone who either doesn't like it or insists on doing the most mundane alone and then wondering "why am I doing this".
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MMORPGs based on the EQ/WOW design (DikuMUD) will always have a perceived grind if for no other reason than varying preference levels in how fast or slow progression should or could be. However, to suggest that MMOs as a whole need grind is absolutely ridiculous. The greater the PvP or social focus, the less grinding there is. Grinding isn't a focus or even a priority in Planetside 2 (yes, yes, you *can* grind certs) or Furcadia.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Then where do movies, books, cartoons, etc come from? Yes there is. It's called "being creative".
I love my job. If my wife asked me how the day went and I said "An 8 hour grind" she'd probably respond with shock, say "I'm sorry to hear that," and ask what happened.
It is odd to see someone over 30 use the term in that context as it is associated with boring, mundane, and monotonous.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There needs to be so much cotent in games that are played for years, that there inevitably is content that feels/is like grind, because developement has it's limits.
Many people enjoy (simple) work like that, especially if there is additional reward mechanics associated. See Candy Crush etc being most played games, with main difference being how differently one feels rewarded, pleased.
Article says everybody knows what grind is, but I think there's room for subjectivity, and interpretation whether it refers to "actual grind" or what feels like grind to certain person.
Grind has always been there, it's core part of MMORPG appeal and role in gaming.
One solution: engourage and/or force people to socialize during leveling, questing, whatever feels grind. Dungeons are not grind? Main differences it being cooperative social event, and better chances to get powerful upgrades, and be challenged.
This would mean in practise in your everyday themepark forced group quests, more challening and more varied monsters, better designed loot system (see candy crush).
So I see if something would need to change I'd look it as revising of reward system, whatever is grind is already good base for the gameplay and attracts people to play MMORPGs.
Sorry but it wasn't WOW that bought us the questing system you see in all mmo today it was EQ2 which came out before WOW.Every mmo since then has been a clone of that system including WOW.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
No one likes the grind, and some games do it worse than others, but they all seem to have it.
I think in terms of levelling it should never feel like a grind, you the player should never have the moment where you think , holy crap this is taking ages, I think WoW Nailed that balance with their WoD levelling, it struck the perfect balance of questing and exploration and discovery to lead the player to the level cap without them ever feeling stuck in a zone it's amazing to me that MMO's in this day and age can still learn a thing or two from WoW, its just a shame the rest of WoW is crap.
Examples of horrible Grind's normally come into play when item drops are required, like Hasla in Archeage or the Library for the Obsidian materials, or Grinding the cat in WoW Vanilla up near wintergrasp or what ever it was called I forget now, those Grinds are horrible and should be addressed, although I'm not sure I have a solution.
For me anything is a Grind when the player has that moment when they sit back in their chair and actually think "Holy shit I am never gona get this X item" quickly followed by "Why the fuck am I playing this shit game when im never gona get the things I need or want"
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
I can't think of an alternative to character building. When I done character building I'm usually done with the game.
I'm just curious why you have to bring up Trion games every single day. I like Trove and have played since alpha, but there comes a point where you just sound like you work for Trion or something. I understand you are blowing some guy over there for information or something that everyone finds interesting, but I wish all the Trion love from you would stop.
No you don't. It's a safe bet you really like the leveling and progression, though.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre