If Crowfall takes any advice from Koster other than "Feedback" I'm done. SWG was a trainwreck! That game should have been completely crafted content. I PAY for content, not a sandbox. That is what Minecraft, Trove and all the other "B" level creative games are for (i,e, Roblox). Any MMO that requires the player's to create their content is a cop out and a way for the Dev's to save money to reach market as fast as possible. Which "usually" is a VERY BAD thing and a huge warning sign.
You're not going to like Crowfall. Not because of player created content but because player interactions are the content. The goal is a game to be acted upon not experienced passively. What you call content will just be the setting.
That's simply not true.. I love everything about Crowfall and was one of it's first backers. My problem is with Koster and how destructive his decisions have been in the past.
Crowfall won't have completely (developer) crafted content and it will be a sandbox. Todd Coleman is calling the shots not Ralph Koster. Ever play Shadowbane?
Koster has had some great ideas over the years, but he has had his failures along with his successes. I still think he understands what makes games fun verses about 99% of the developers out there. They have a good team working on Crowfall and I am going to wait and see what they come up with before passing judgement on the game.
But I will point out it is only partically a sandbox. A full sandbox game just can't have classes, it must be skill based so don't try to tell us on this forum that is a full sandbox because it most certainly is not.
Great people, generally speaking, do not have 100% superb track records (contrary to the thinking that appears to be dominating in this thread). Look at Napoleon -- his Egyptian Campaign ended pretty much in disaster, hist first invasion of Austria nearly resulted in the destruction of his army, and then there was that whole Russian busiess. Great man? Unquestionably -- some studies list him as #2 all time in influence behind only Christ. But he could ^%$# up royal with the best of them.
And no, I'm not trying to compare Raph to Jesus, or even Bonaparte; I'm not even necessarily declaring him a great man per se. But, in almost all cases, 'visionary' men are not cloaked in a halo of perfection. Rather, it seems that most of these folks stumble like the rest of us, but they recover more quickly.
Did Raph *&^% up in SWG? Unquestionably (although the changing nature of the market was as much to blame with what happened there as he is personally). Does he, have others pointed out, have a predeliction towards 'project roaming' (or resume padding)? Yeah, I think you could probably drape that albatross, too, around his neck (although how many amongst us are guilty of the same thing? I know I am).
But, when the guy talks, I believe he is speaking with conviction -- which is an ENORMOUS and far cry away from the lead developers of, say, World of Warcraft. I don't think Raph is a liar -- he's honest and passionate about what he holds true. But he's also a risk-taker... and, like a lot of dreamers, I think he tends to be something of a wanderer; moving swiftly from enterprise to enterprise when he gets bored.
Again, I don't see a lot to condemn him over here. And, certainly, I think his voice is a welcome change from the endless stream of monotone BS escaping the lips of other key players in the industry.
If Crowfall takes any advice from Koster other than "Feedback" I'm done. SWG was a trainwreck! That game should have been completely crafted content. I PAY for content, not a sandbox. That is what Minecraft, Trove and all the other "B" level creative games are for (i,e, Roblox). Any MMO that requires the player's to create their content is a cop out and a way for the Dev's to save money to reach market as fast as possible. Which "usually" is a VERY BAD thing and a huge warning sign.
You're not going to like Crowfall. Not because of player created content but because player interactions are the content. The goal is a game to be acted upon not experienced passively. What you call content will just be the setting.
That's simply not true.. I love everything about Crowfall and was one of it's first backers. My problem is with Koster and how destructive his decisions have been in the past.
Crowfall won't have completely (developer) crafted content and it will be a sandbox. Todd Coleman is calling the shots not Ralph Koster. Ever play Shadowbane?
Yup, I liked Shadowbane but unfortunately they didn't have the server infrastructure. I played with a large group of SOE peeps and we loved it until we couldn't play the game due to a poor play experience. But it held lots of promise.
Great people, generally speaking, do not have 100% superb track records (contrary to the thinking that appears to be dominating in this thread). Look at Napoleon -- his Egyptian Campaign ended pretty much in disaster, hist first invasion of Austria nearly resulted in the destruction of his army, and then there was that whole Russian busiess. Great man? Unquestionably -- some studies list him as #2 all time in influence behind only Christ. But he could ^%$# up royal with the best of them.
And no, I'm not trying to compare Raph to Jesus, or even Bonaparte; I'm not even necessarily declaring him a great man per se. But, in almost all cases, 'visionary' men are not cloaked in a halo of perfection. Rather, it seems that most of these folks stumble like the rest of us, but they recover more quickly.
Did Raph *&^% up in SWG? Unquestionably (although the changing nature of the market was as much to blame with what happened there as he is personally). Does he, have others pointed out, have a predeliction towards 'project roaming' (or resume padding)? Yeah, I think you could probably drape that albatross, too, around his neck (although how many amongst us are guilty of the same thing? I know I am).
But, when the guy talks, I believe he is speaking with conviction -- which is an ENORMOUS and far cry away from the lead developers of, say, World of Warcraft. I don't think Raph is a liar -- he's honest and passionate about what he holds true. But he's also a risk-taker... and, like a lot of dreamers, I think he tends to be something of a wanderer; moving swiftly from enterprise to enterprise when he gets bored.
Again, I don't see a lot to condemn him over here. And, certainly, I think his voice is a welcome change from the endless stream of monotone BS escaping the lips of other key players in the industry.
I honestly believe you are an excellent writer and I understand the generous comparisons you make. But he speaks with no more conviction then any other designer!!! He is a flawed human as you say and I know firsthand that he has taken credit for others blood, sweat, and tears. So if you want to believe in his skill and vision, that is your prerogative to join cult Koster. I will not be joining you to drink the Kool-Aid. The best designers in the industry are the ones you've never heard of or seen and let their work speak for itself. They are the ones that only need to see a smile on your face to know they did their job well.
Also:
"Those who can, do; Those that can't, teach"
Koster hasn't shipped a game that he himself has designed in over 10 years.
Great people, generally speaking, do not have 100% superb track records (contrary to the thinking that appears to be dominating in this thread). Look at Napoleon -- his Egyptian Campaign ended pretty much in disaster, hist first invasion of Austria nearly resulted in the destruction of his army, and then there was that whole Russian busiess. Great man? Unquestionably -- some studies list him as #2 all time in influence behind only Christ. But he could ^%$# up royal with the best of them.
And no, I'm not trying to compare Raph to Jesus, or even Bonaparte; I'm not even necessarily declaring him a great man per se. But, in almost all cases, 'visionary' men are not cloaked in a halo of perfection. Rather, it seems that most of these folks stumble like the rest of us, but they recover more quickly.
Did Raph *&^% up in SWG? Unquestionably (although the changing nature of the market was as much to blame with what happened there as he is personally). Does he, have others pointed out, have a predeliction towards 'project roaming' (or resume padding)? Yeah, I think you could probably drape that albatross, too, around his neck (although how many amongst us are guilty of the same thing? I know I am).
But, when the guy talks, I believe he is speaking with conviction -- which is an ENORMOUS and far cry away from the lead developers of, say, World of Warcraft. I don't think Raph is a liar -- he's honest and passionate about what he holds true. But he's also a risk-taker... and, like a lot of dreamers, I think he tends to be something of a wanderer; moving swiftly from enterprise to enterprise when he gets bored.
Again, I don't see a lot to condemn him over here. And, certainly, I think his voice is a welcome change from the endless stream of monotone BS escaping the lips of other key players in the industry.
I honestly believe you are an excellent writer and I understand the generous comparisons you make. But he speaks with no more conviction then any other designer!!! He is a flawed human as you say and I know firsthand that he has taken credit for others blood, sweat, and tears. So if you want to believe in his skill and vision, that is your prerogative to join cult Koster. I will not be joining you to drink the Kool-Aid. The best designers in the industry are the ones you've never heard of or seen and let their work speak for itself. They are the ones that only need to see a smile on your face to know they did their job well.
Also:
"Those who can, do; Those that can't, teach"
Koster hasn't shipped a game that he himself has designed in over 10 years.
He isn't shipping one this time, either -- he's merely serving in a consultant role. I'll be honest: none of us know the inside of the industry. It's possible that Raph, after the failure with SWG, has endured some form of blacklisting from MMO bigwigs. Perhaps people simply no longer trust him with their money. Crowfall is, of course, not a mainstream product, so it would make sense to see him working with ArtCraft -- maybe they appreciate his passion, but are wary enough to keep him at arm's length.
Again, we just don't know. I played SWG myself from launch until the combat revamp. I can say, without reserve, that I view it in purely emotional terms: crystalline high highs and low lows. The best PvP I ever saw in an MMORPG? SWG. The best exploration I've ever experience in an MMO? SWG. The worst developer vision (or, at least, vision that resulted in changes in the game [IE, it doesn't matter what people thought about the hell that was the holocron grind -- what mattered is it made it into the game])? The most embarassing reaction to a competitor's (WoW) launch? SWG. At the end there, it had panic mode written all over it.
I just don't know how much of that to hang on Raph. The bones of SWG were visceral and pure -- they were almost elemental. But, by the time I left, my gut reactions to the awesome city building and stellar PvP were buried under an avalanche of excrement. And I wasn't willing to pearl dive through that veritable lahar of shit to chisel out the rubies beneath, sparkly as they might have been.
I've read good things about Shadowbane... bad things, too. But I think that was a game that was, at least initially, governed by a very precise vision. And that was the case with SWG at launch (or, at least, it seemed like it). So I'm willing to fork over $38 to support this puppy. Because, frankly, after 10 years of being consistently disappointed by the vanilla replacement, I am ready to feel things again -- both anger and joy.
Agree completely with all the above. Raph had very little to do with all the major SWG changes. That can all be attributed to Smed. I too look forward to Crowfall a great deal. My knee jerk reaction is purely on any Raph involvement. Till we see Alpha, it's all speculation. Regardless of all my comments I'm still optimistic. Thanks for the quality banter.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle I think crowd funding is a fad that gamers will quickly grow sick of. Once in a blue moon I can see people really getting behind a new project but for the most part, I think this train is going to slow down a lot over the next year or so. More so after people see that we will get just as many bad MMOs from crowd funding as we did from corp businesses. Its not even that the games will be just as bad, but how we judge games as gamers, we stamp fail on them so quickly.
Well, the certainly are far too many crowdfunding games right now for it to continue like this but there probably will be some projects around even after the initial fad runs out.
Crowfall at least have an experienced team and probably actually could have gotten funding from a publisher, the problem is just that the publishers tend to demand certain things.
I know firsthand that he has taken credit for others blood, sweat, and tears.
Lou, I gather that we worked together in some fashion, but I can't tell who you are from what you've posted.
I've always made a point of disclaiming other people's work that people attribute to me, such as, say, the entirety of EQ2. (There were some interface design bits that EQ2 used from SWG's design, mostly in chat bubble stuff, and I spent a little bit of time doing work with Rod on crafting, but I wouldn't claim a design role on the team AT ALL).
So I have to ask, what do you feel I am taking credit for that I shouldn't be?
The best designers in the industry are the ones you've never heard of or seen and let their work speak for itself.
I would tend to agree. But let's keep in mind that a lot of the people who talk a lot are doing so in order to share lessons learned, so that everyone can learn together. That's not an evil motive.
Koster hasn't shipped a game that he himself has designed in over 10 years.
This isn't accurate. I shipped a game in February (Jackpot Trivia, for Buzztime). Metaplace launched in 2007; I most definitely worked on Island Life and My Vineyard. It's true that I didn't get to ship much while at Disney/Playdom. :P
He isn't shipping one this time, either -- he's merely serving in a consultant role. I'll be honest: none of us know the inside of the industry. It's possible that Raph, after the failure with SWG, has endured some form of blacklisting from MMO bigwigs.
Perhaps people simply no longer trust him with their money.
Heh, no. I have had no shortage of opportunities of various sorts ranging from running studios to heading up research groups at major Internet companies. In the end, I've just decided not to pursue any of them. I'm currently enjoying making board games and small digital games at home, and advising and consulting for a wide range of projects (not just MMO, but also a sports game, a training company, and more I can't tell you about). And doing some writing.
Great people, generally speaking, do not have 100% superb track records (contrary to the thinking that appears to be dominating in this thread). Look at Napoleon -- his Egyptian Campaign ended pretty much in disaster, hist first invasion of Austria nearly resulted in the destruction of his army, and then there was that whole Russian busiess. Great man? Unquestionably -- some studies list him as #2 all time in influence behind only Christ. But he could ^%$# up royal with the best of them.
And no, I'm not trying to compare Raph to Jesus, or even Bonaparte; I'm not even necessarily declaring him a great man per se. But, in almost all cases, 'visionary' men are not cloaked in a halo of perfection. Rather, it seems that most of these folks stumble like the rest of us, but they recover more quickly.
Did Raph *&^% up in SWG? Unquestionably (although the changing nature of the market was as much to blame with what happened there as he is personally). Does he, have others pointed out, have a predeliction towards 'project roaming' (or resume padding)? Yeah, I think you could probably drape that albatross, too, around his neck (although how many amongst us are guilty of the same thing? I know I am).
But, when the guy talks, I believe he is speaking with conviction -- which is an ENORMOUS and far cry away from the lead developers of, say, World of Warcraft. I don't think Raph is a liar -- he's honest and passionate about what he holds true. But he's also a risk-taker... and, like a lot of dreamers, I think he tends to be something of a wanderer; moving swiftly from enterprise to enterprise when he gets bored.
Again, I don't see a lot to condemn him over here. And, certainly, I think his voice is a welcome change from the endless stream of monotone BS escaping the lips of other key players in the industry.
I honestly believe you are an excellent writer and I understand the generous comparisons you make. But he speaks with no more conviction then any other designer!!! He is a flawed human as you say and I know firsthand that he has taken credit for others blood, sweat, and tears. So if you want to believe in his skill and vision, that is your prerogative to join cult Koster. I will not be joining you to drink the Kool-Aid. The best designers in the industry are the ones you've never heard of or seen and let their work speak for itself. They are the ones that only need to see a smile on your face to know they did their job well.
Also:
"Those who can, do; Those that can't, teach"
Koster hasn't shipped a game that he himself has designed in over 10 years.
First off, this isn't about "drinking the Kool-Aid". It's about what kind of MMO's people want. You seem to me, from your earlier post, to like the designed content of a Themepark style game. That's fine, but there are a lot of others (like me) who like the "worldly" stuff that Sandbox game play can bring. Of course, it's hard to find a good example of that in MMO's because of the almost complete direction towards Themepark game play.
Now, understand, I'm talking about game play here. I want to stress that because it seems to get lost, or be entirely void, in these conversations. You can have any game with elements of either style in them. But here's what I'm getting at as far as "game play":
Themepark game play: Playing in a tier driven game of levels, moving from content to content designed for said levels. This content can be more highly designed for greater satisfaction and expectations because it's designed for characters in a specific range of ability. It's usually enhanced by limiting or dictating group size. And players are directed through the game from content to content until it runs out. "End Game" is designed to give this content the "grand finale" like the end of a fireworks display. Quests are the means to direct the players through this content.
Sandbox game play: Playing in a world designed to act like a world. Freedom to go where you want, do what you want, inside that world and success depending on your own achieved knowledge of said world and skill development. Designed content is not focused on level groups nearly as much, but not entirely ignored ether. Instead content in a Sandbox game is more focused on other aspects of game play such as social interactions (that doesn't mean PvP, or at least not by itself), knowledge of said world, building things, economic game play, political game play (in a natural interactive way), and fame based on accomplishments rather than points.
Either game style, as I said, can have elements of the other. But the basic game style is based on how players play the game as I defined above. It's directed content vs. free roaming content, each having their strengths and suited to players who like one or the other better for their gaming wants.
The shining example of Themepark game play is, of course WoW.
Sandbox games, on the other hand, don't really have a shining example, for two reasons.
Money. No one has really spent a lot on making a great Sandbox game, nor has there been an effort to do so.
Social interactions on that level, in a free world, are hard. Many mistakes and easy make. (PvP, economic issues, group monopolies, etc.)
When a game tries to be both (practically an impossibility) it ends up with a mash that doesn't mix. Many think that SWG was a Sandbox. It wasn't. It was level based content to level based content game play. It had a lot of Sandbox elements that made it more "sandboxy", but at it's core it was still that level based content that made it a Themepark. But a very poor Themepark because it was a mash that didn't quite mix. And perhaps the 2nd best example of Sandbox simply because of the lack of Sandbox games and so much sandboxiness mixed in. UO was and still is the best example of a Sandbox game. It was a pure Sandbox game. But it was an early MMO, the earliest truly "massively" MMO. And it lacked the polish and funding of later MMOs. It also fell victim to the social issues of making a great Sandbox game, first in the wild PvP and later in economic ways as players forged monopolistic controls due to changes towards level to level style elements. UO as it went on also fell victim to that mashing of game styles. In many ways.
As far as Raph Koster, in his history of game developing and the issues involved:
I don't think it was his choice to create SWG with the Themepark style game play as it's core. Which mashed it up and caused it to fail to really take off, which was later greatly enhanced into more failure by changes he did not agree with. I think there were too many others involved in SWG's direction and design choices that conflicted with the Sandbox ideals, and a corporation that didn't like "risk" but didn't know the difference.
Anything he had a hand in in EQ2 was almsot certain to not mix well, since he's such a great Sandbox ideals guy that would have been trying to add to a definitive Themepark game style (almost like SWG). I'm presuming here because I'm not aware of what exactly was with that, don't shoot me for speaking about that which I don't know. I'm speculating on this one.
I do blame Raph (in part) on UO's PvP problems. He was working in the right direction, but didn't act as fast or strongly enough. And that led to a corporate decision (Trammel) that pretty much killed a workable PvP system all the way up through the years to today. And will most certainly continue.
He isn't shipping one this time, either -- he's merely serving in a consultant role. I'll be honest: none of us know the inside of the industry. It's possible that Raph, after the failure with SWG, has endured some form of blacklisting from MMO bigwigs.
Perhaps people simply no longer trust him with their money.
Heh, no. I have had no shortage of opportunities of various sorts ranging from running studios to heading up research groups at major Internet companies. In the end, I've just decided not to pursue any of them. I'm currently enjoying making board games and small digital games at home, and advising and consulting for a wide range of projects (not just MMO, but also a sports game, a training company, and more I can't tell you about). And doing some writing.
But, I think amongst your supporters -- of which I am certainly one -- there is a powerful feeling that you're the best guy we've got for this sandbox 'thing.' And, frankly, we're tired of having our dreams fall somewhere into that craggy abyss that lies between the escarpments of disappointment and revulsion whenever these Korean MMORPGs come along promising the moon, and end up delivering a dump truck full of cow poo (to which we predictably play Biff Tannen in a '46 Ford and plow right into its rear end).
You have -- perhaps more than anyone else inside this business -- a clear perception of what western sandbox gamers are looking for, in large part because you designed the platfoms on which those preferences were founded. A fair number of us can espouse these ideas conceptually, but we lack the keys to enter that vaulted room and plead our case before the golden throne. We aren't connected; we aren't technologically saavy; and, while many of us have a fair idea of what we want, we are -- as sandbox players -- something of a disparate (even roguish) bunch to begin with. We're anti-establishmentarians. And thus it is very difficult for us to rally cohesively behind anything.
And so many of us look to you, and we wait for movement. We wait for the sea change that will mark the next great epoch in *our* story. And I'm not by any means trying to goad you into action, or light a fire under your keister. Your prerogatives are your own; your life goals your private right. But, in the mean time, a number of us stand upon the rocky shore, torches lit, peering into the dark reaches of nothing. We are waiting. And, awesome as Crowfall looks, we may, at the end of the day, be waiting still. Perhaps, at some point, the wait will be over.
More cheesy dev speak as they ramble on like they understand the industry because they have been a designer. Look this is the fact the designers are clueless and they keep regurgitating out WORSE AND WORSE products. They think they understand gamers, they even think they are gamers , but they are not and they are bad theory crafters who keep shoveling out the same uninspired boring simplistic garbage with some simple augmentations.
15 years of mmo's not once have a single dev taken the time to create a DEEP system that can have content shoveled out constantly, nor a game system that is deep and rich. Instead over and over game is released with 1-4 end game dungeon content with maybe a silly hard mode version, 9 months later to release another 2 dungeons. Stats systems that are literally simplified to hp/armour and 1 primary stat. Simple combat with no layers no teamwork. The most boring and bland loot system ever herr derr your new chest peice has 1 more str than yor last so exciting! No risk, no rewards, no excitement, no goals, no feeling of power spikes, no feeling of achievement. Just more of the same open field linear questing with linear rewards and a advancement system that has 3000 people on the server looking and playing identically.
same stale enviroments, most mundane bestiaries (really i am killing rats snakes dogs and bugs and bears again?) retreaded boring skill system (oh hey i got fireblast rank 8 it does 4% more dmg than fireball rank 7 man I am so juiced to get out there with my new found power! while i quest around a grassy field killing "orange bears instead of black bears with a new name", of course they will drop trivially useless things like pelts, but when i turn in my 12 bear pelts i will get a new sword that has .01% more dps and 1 more str than the last one you gave me 3 quests ago.
BUT ALL OF THAT IS OKAY because this genious developers has created a soul shard system (ok actually it is a talent tree like every other game has but instead of getting skill points you collect souls to buy the talents) oh goody i just got my new soul talent thingy by gosh i now have 1% more health i cant wait to get rank 2 and get 1.5% more health!!!
K you ge the point these guys are all trash at thier job and that is why these games have sucked mega dicks for about 12 years STRAIGHT.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle I think crowd funding is a fad that gamers will quickly grow sick of. Once in a blue moon I can see people really getting behind a new project but for the most part, I think this train is going to slow down a lot over the next year or so. More so after people see that we will get just as many bad MMOs from crowd funding as we did from corp businesses. Its not even that the games will be just as bad, but how we judge games as gamers, we stamp fail on them so quickly.
Well, the certainly are far too many crowdfunding games right now for it to continue like this but there probably will be some projects around even after the initial fad runs out.
Crowfall at least have an experienced team and probably actually could have gotten funding from a publisher, the problem is just that the publishers tend to demand certain things.
Look crowfall has an experienced team alright experienced in creating epic rubbish and everything is pointing to yet another pile of poop from these collaboration of poop creators.
Ugly world, ugly animations, silly theory crafted systems that don't actually do anything but shuffle the same parts we all seen hundreds of times. Akak another money grab from industry failures.
Crowfall and Ever Quest Next are two games that I'm really looking forward to seeing once they are complete. Both have aspects to their game play that suggest a good amount of replay value, which is essential to keeping players invested. It's a stark contrast to most current MMORPGs that use static corridors and item grind. Everquest Next is just far too quiet right now, and that does bother me. Crowfall and EQ Next are almost two sides of the same coin, one focused on PvP and the other PvE.
The biggest difference from THEN and NOW is a LOT.Whatever Koster did back then and whatever power he held in the game's design,i doubt he does or has little of either now days.
I seriously don't even know why koster is in the mix here,this team has their own idea of what they want,so how is koster going to influence anything?I mean they could tell us something concrete or he could as well but it just seems they are pandering around his name as a PR gimmick
I see that already with this game,"former this and former that" NM this and that,show us what you got for us NOW.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The biggest difference from THEN and NOW is a LOT.Whatever Koster did back then and whatever power he held in the game's design,i doubt he does or has little of either now days.
I seriously don't even know why koster is in the mix here,this team has their own idea of what they want,so how is koster going to influence anything?I mean they could tell us something concrete or he could as well but it just seems they are pandering around his name as a PR gimmick
I see that already with this game,"former this and former that" NM this and that,show us what you got for us NOW.
If I remember correctly, Raph was asked for input on the economic system mainly. I think he's basically an adviser on certain "worldly" systems.
He's a team player and it's not about power, but technical system designs. Whatever comes of his input, it's still not "his". This is the Crowfall team's baby, having had Raph's input to choose their finished designs. At least that's how I see it.
And Raph's input does mean something to gamers who understand his background. It's just that I'm not sold on the game itself. I'll keep an eye on it though.
Originally posted by justmemyselfandi Stop giving used-up has-been windbags like Koster, Molyneux, and Garriott attention, maybe they'll finally go away.
Comments
Koster has had some great ideas over the years, but he has had his failures along with his successes. I still think he understands what makes games fun verses about 99% of the developers out there. They have a good team working on Crowfall and I am going to wait and see what they come up with before passing judgement on the game.
But I will point out it is only partically a sandbox. A full sandbox game just can't have classes, it must be skill based so don't try to tell us on this forum that is a full sandbox because it most certainly is not.
Great people, generally speaking, do not have 100% superb track records (contrary to the thinking that appears to be dominating in this thread). Look at Napoleon -- his Egyptian Campaign ended pretty much in disaster, hist first invasion of Austria nearly resulted in the destruction of his army, and then there was that whole Russian busiess. Great man? Unquestionably -- some studies list him as #2 all time in influence behind only Christ. But he could ^%$# up royal with the best of them.
And no, I'm not trying to compare Raph to Jesus, or even Bonaparte; I'm not even necessarily declaring him a great man per se. But, in almost all cases, 'visionary' men are not cloaked in a halo of perfection. Rather, it seems that most of these folks stumble like the rest of us, but they recover more quickly.
Did Raph *&^% up in SWG? Unquestionably (although the changing nature of the market was as much to blame with what happened there as he is personally). Does he, have others pointed out, have a predeliction towards 'project roaming' (or resume padding)? Yeah, I think you could probably drape that albatross, too, around his neck (although how many amongst us are guilty of the same thing? I know I am).
But, when the guy talks, I believe he is speaking with conviction -- which is an ENORMOUS and far cry away from the lead developers of, say, World of Warcraft. I don't think Raph is a liar -- he's honest and passionate about what he holds true. But he's also a risk-taker... and, like a lot of dreamers, I think he tends to be something of a wanderer; moving swiftly from enterprise to enterprise when he gets bored.
Again, I don't see a lot to condemn him over here. And, certainly, I think his voice is a welcome change from the endless stream of monotone BS escaping the lips of other key players in the industry.
Yup, I liked Shadowbane but unfortunately they didn't have the server infrastructure. I played with a large group of SOE peeps and we loved it until we couldn't play the game due to a poor play experience. But it held lots of promise.
I honestly believe you are an excellent writer and I understand the generous comparisons you make. But he speaks with no more conviction then any other designer!!! He is a flawed human as you say and I know firsthand that he has taken credit for others blood, sweat, and tears. So if you want to believe in his skill and vision, that is your prerogative to join cult Koster. I will not be joining you to drink the Kool-Aid. The best designers in the industry are the ones you've never heard of or seen and let their work speak for itself. They are the ones that only need to see a smile on your face to know they did their job well.
Also:
"Those who can, do; Those that can't, teach"
Koster hasn't shipped a game that he himself has designed in over 10 years.
He isn't shipping one this time, either -- he's merely serving in a consultant role. I'll be honest: none of us know the inside of the industry. It's possible that Raph, after the failure with SWG, has endured some form of blacklisting from MMO bigwigs. Perhaps people simply no longer trust him with their money. Crowfall is, of course, not a mainstream product, so it would make sense to see him working with ArtCraft -- maybe they appreciate his passion, but are wary enough to keep him at arm's length.
Again, we just don't know. I played SWG myself from launch until the combat revamp. I can say, without reserve, that I view it in purely emotional terms: crystalline high highs and low lows. The best PvP I ever saw in an MMORPG? SWG. The best exploration I've ever experience in an MMO? SWG. The worst developer vision (or, at least, vision that resulted in changes in the game [IE, it doesn't matter what people thought about the hell that was the holocron grind -- what mattered is it made it into the game])? The most embarassing reaction to a competitor's (WoW) launch? SWG. At the end there, it had panic mode written all over it.
I just don't know how much of that to hang on Raph. The bones of SWG were visceral and pure -- they were almost elemental. But, by the time I left, my gut reactions to the awesome city building and stellar PvP were buried under an avalanche of excrement. And I wasn't willing to pearl dive through that veritable lahar of shit to chisel out the rubies beneath, sparkly as they might have been.
I've read good things about Shadowbane... bad things, too. But I think that was a game that was, at least initially, governed by a very precise vision. And that was the case with SWG at launch (or, at least, it seemed like it). So I'm willing to fork over $38 to support this puppy. Because, frankly, after 10 years of being consistently disappointed by the vanilla replacement, I am ready to feel things again -- both anger and joy.
Well, the certainly are far too many crowdfunding games right now for it to continue like this but there probably will be some projects around even after the initial fad runs out.
Crowfall at least have an experienced team and probably actually could have gotten funding from a publisher, the problem is just that the publishers tend to demand certain things.
Lou, I gather that we worked together in some fashion, but I can't tell who you are from what you've posted.
I've always made a point of disclaiming other people's work that people attribute to me, such as, say, the entirety of EQ2. (There were some interface design bits that EQ2 used from SWG's design, mostly in chat bubble stuff, and I spent a little bit of time doing work with Rod on crafting, but I wouldn't claim a design role on the team AT ALL).
So I have to ask, what do you feel I am taking credit for that I shouldn't be?
I would tend to agree. But let's keep in mind that a lot of the people who talk a lot are doing so in order to share lessons learned, so that everyone can learn together. That's not an evil motive.
This isn't accurate. I shipped a game in February (Jackpot Trivia, for Buzztime). Metaplace launched in 2007; I most definitely worked on Island Life and My Vineyard. It's true that I didn't get to ship much while at Disney/Playdom. :P
Heh, no. I have had no shortage of opportunities of various sorts ranging from running studios to heading up research groups at major Internet companies. In the end, I've just decided not to pursue any of them. I'm currently enjoying making board games and small digital games at home, and advising and consulting for a wide range of projects (not just MMO, but also a sports game, a training company, and more I can't tell you about). And doing some writing.
I haven't gone out and asked for any money.
First off, this isn't about "drinking the Kool-Aid". It's about what kind of MMO's people want. You seem to me, from your earlier post, to like the designed content of a Themepark style game. That's fine, but there are a lot of others (like me) who like the "worldly" stuff that Sandbox game play can bring. Of course, it's hard to find a good example of that in MMO's because of the almost complete direction towards Themepark game play.
Now, understand, I'm talking about game play here. I want to stress that because it seems to get lost, or be entirely void, in these conversations. You can have any game with elements of either style in them. But here's what I'm getting at as far as "game play":
Once upon a time....
And as I said in that post: we don't know.
I appreciate your effort to tackle the SWG matter head-on, Raph. Really -- I do. And, if I ever felt 'betrayed' (and I'm not sure I'd even go that far), a decade has softened those feelings overall.
But, I think amongst your supporters -- of which I am certainly one -- there is a powerful feeling that you're the best guy we've got for this sandbox 'thing.' And, frankly, we're tired of having our dreams fall somewhere into that craggy abyss that lies between the escarpments of disappointment and revulsion whenever these Korean MMORPGs come along promising the moon, and end up delivering a dump truck full of cow poo (to which we predictably play Biff Tannen in a '46 Ford and plow right into its rear end).
You have -- perhaps more than anyone else inside this business -- a clear perception of what western sandbox gamers are looking for, in large part because you designed the platfoms on which those preferences were founded. A fair number of us can espouse these ideas conceptually, but we lack the keys to enter that vaulted room and plead our case before the golden throne. We aren't connected; we aren't technologically saavy; and, while many of us have a fair idea of what we want, we are -- as sandbox players -- something of a disparate (even roguish) bunch to begin with. We're anti-establishmentarians. And thus it is very difficult for us to rally cohesively behind anything.
And so many of us look to you, and we wait for movement. We wait for the sea change that will mark the next great epoch in *our* story. And I'm not by any means trying to goad you into action, or light a fire under your keister. Your prerogatives are your own; your life goals your private right. But, in the mean time, a number of us stand upon the rocky shore, torches lit, peering into the dark reaches of nothing. We are waiting. And, awesome as Crowfall looks, we may, at the end of the day, be waiting still. Perhaps, at some point, the wait will be over.
More cheesy dev speak as they ramble on like they understand the industry because they have been a designer. Look this is the fact the designers are clueless and they keep regurgitating out WORSE AND WORSE products. They think they understand gamers, they even think they are gamers , but they are not and they are bad theory crafters who keep shoveling out the same uninspired boring simplistic garbage with some simple augmentations.
15 years of mmo's not once have a single dev taken the time to create a DEEP system that can have content shoveled out constantly, nor a game system that is deep and rich. Instead over and over game is released with 1-4 end game dungeon content with maybe a silly hard mode version, 9 months later to release another 2 dungeons. Stats systems that are literally simplified to hp/armour and 1 primary stat. Simple combat with no layers no teamwork. The most boring and bland loot system ever herr derr your new chest peice has 1 more str than yor last so exciting! No risk, no rewards, no excitement, no goals, no feeling of power spikes, no feeling of achievement. Just more of the same open field linear questing with linear rewards and a advancement system that has 3000 people on the server looking and playing identically.
same stale enviroments, most mundane bestiaries (really i am killing rats snakes dogs and bugs and bears again?) retreaded boring skill system (oh hey i got fireblast rank 8 it does 4% more dmg than fireball rank 7 man I am so juiced to get out there with my new found power! while i quest around a grassy field killing "orange bears instead of black bears with a new name", of course they will drop trivially useless things like pelts, but when i turn in my 12 bear pelts i will get a new sword that has .01% more dps and 1 more str than the last one you gave me 3 quests ago.
BUT ALL OF THAT IS OKAY because this genious developers has created a soul shard system (ok actually it is a talent tree like every other game has but instead of getting skill points you collect souls to buy the talents) oh goody i just got my new soul talent thingy by gosh i now have 1% more health i cant wait to get rank 2 and get 1.5% more health!!!
K you ge the point these guys are all trash at thier job and that is why these games have sucked mega dicks for about 12 years STRAIGHT.
Look crowfall has an experienced team alright experienced in creating epic rubbish and everything is pointing to yet another pile of poop from these collaboration of poop creators.
Ugly world, ugly animations, silly theory crafted systems that don't actually do anything but shuffle the same parts we all seen hundreds of times. Akak another money grab from industry failures.
The biggest difference from THEN and NOW is a LOT.Whatever Koster did back then and whatever power he held in the game's design,i doubt he does or has little of either now days.
I seriously don't even know why koster is in the mix here,this team has their own idea of what they want,so how is koster going to influence anything?I mean they could tell us something concrete or he could as well but it just seems they are pandering around his name as a PR gimmick
I see that already with this game,"former this and former that" NM this and that,show us what you got for us NOW.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
If I remember correctly, Raph was asked for input on the economic system mainly.
I think he's basically an adviser on certain "worldly" systems.
He's a team player and it's not about power, but technical system designs. Whatever comes of his input, it's still not "his". This is the Crowfall team's baby, having had Raph's input to choose their finished designs. At least that's how I see it.
And Raph's input does mean something to gamers who understand his background. It's just that I'm not sold on the game itself. I'll keep an eye on it though.
Once upon a time....
too bad that would never work on you.
have you even ever done ANYthing with your life?
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Corpus Callosum
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