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Does no one see a problem with this?
Albatroes
Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
The optional service of buying retainers. I didn't really pay it too much attention until the new expansion and collecting new materials only to see that the management of my two retainers was starting to falter. Interestingly enough I read in free company chat that people just got done buying x amount of retainers. For some people unfamiliar with the game, retainers are a form of storage but they have other functions as well, such as leveling them and they can bring items/gear to you over a period of time. SE gives you two base and you can buy extra to have a total of 8, 2$ each. Keep in mind that this game is a subscription game and no extra retainer was given free upon purchasing the expansion. Also a side note is that you cannot sent items between characters on your account. Trading between characters on the same account can only be done either by the marketboard or having someone you trust help you. So, we are rewarded with lovely new things but no extra space to hold them. I honestly consider this a minor problem since I can gather certain things again later. My real issue is the retainers. These optional storage spaces also have the potential to increase the money you make without much effort if you know how to use them correctly. Definitely noticeable since most game economies are in flux after new content, yet these little helpers can help you gather a decent size quantity of items and initially sell for a lot when something is still new to the market. I'm sure everyone has their own opinion of this, it just seems like SE is trying to get too much money. FFXIV has a lot of potential but SE usually does something to make me cringe.
Comments
I originally had an issue with them announcing the retainer ventures alongside the selling of additional retainers, but after using the ones I've had for as long as I have now, I don't see how it would create a major advantage for players. Yes, they have the ability to list more items on the market and obtain more items with their ventures, but the market in this game is very fickle.
Retainers won't make you a ton of money from the items they bring back from ventures, nor will you necessarily get rich quick by loading up 8 retainers with stuff to sell, because undercutters run rampart in this game. You may have more volume listed, but you'll be constantly adjusting your prices because so many other people are selling the same things.
So no, I don't see there being a major advantage to people that have more than the allotted two retainers. The space is nice for sure, but it's just a convenience.
Please use paragraphs its hard to read your post.
I personal do have a problem with buying a Retainer because I am not a cash shop fan at all. I can accept SE's cash shop to some level because their design is to put that revenue back into development of in game content as well as a new data center. While I hate cash shops they have not made the switch to send time on the cash shop. The cash shop is like an after thought and only when there is nothing else that is pressing.
As for the retainers here is the problem SE faces. They have very little items that is a waste. You either can use it for crafting, or sell it for seal. There is very little waste. So with that design they made it so players had only so much space for stuff. I feel that they did this design to save on Disk space for the database for each character. Well people wanted more bag space and on the forums kept asking for more retainers and many said they are willing to PAY for it. As much as I dont like that if a company cannot do that within the subscription there is a problem. Being a Microsoft SQL DBA (Administrator not a Developer) I understand that SE developers could have back themselves into a corner that it would cost a lot of developer time to redesign the items and bag space in the database. Now I am not saying this is exactly what happen however it could have happen.
The Items in the Database could have a hex character for them and done a nvarchar on the ID with up to 4000 characters in that 1 Item ID column in the database. This will create a lot written to disk requiring more disk than that is needed. Now I do not know that this happened, HOWEVER I do know that I seen something like this in one of my 3.5 TB databases. I have 1 Calc table that has 5 Billion rows and this table cannot be achieved or Partitioned. The reason is because how this table does a series of records so any calculation that was done for a payee. So when a report is run on this table it pulls a series of calculations just from this table it also uses a large hex nvarchar number to id the payee. It also has 50+ columns in this table that the columns are from other tables. To fix this its about 1000 hours of developer time to redesign how cals are done as well as partition out the table to put certain partitions on slower disk vs fast disk.
Long story short I understand that they can screwed themselves to the point it will be a large task to fix vs letting people buy the space and then fixing it with that money. I dont like it however its not as bad as Item regrades which if I dont spend the money on it I dont have a higher chance at the regrade. Its like a casino.
I've no problem with them at all, primarily because they are extremely optional. In my experience so far, they're not even close to being necessary. I'd love to see the inventory of someone who actually needs more than the two they give you. I'll bet they have a lot of crap they could get rid of, if they took the time to really sort through it all.
For one, as I noted in another thread, out of the gate, with a single character and the 2 retainers you are given, you have around 1000 total inventory spots, this is so through a combination of actual/direct inventory slots, as well as ways other items are stored, separate from the main inventory.
Looking only at the basic inventory, between your character and two retainers, you have around 750 slots of actual inventory space. This includes your Armory, as anything in there would otherwise be sitting in your main inventory window(s).
On top of that, you have things like your Armoir (accessible through an Inn room, or appropriate furniture in a FC house), which can store entire sets of AF gear, along with seasonal gear and other items. That can store up to 115 individual items, if you have AF for all Jobs, which would otherwise be sitting in your inventory, or on your retainers.
And so on..
Point is, between "direct storage" and alternative storage, there is plenty of room with a base character to keep everything organized.
I find that a lot of people tend to become pack rats, and hold on to a lot of stuff they're not using and really don't need to be holding on to, but develop some kind of attachment to, or some vague notion that maybe they might need it someday.
I came into 2.0 with a Legacy character, and a ton of stuff left over from 1.0. I have tons of gear and items, but I wasn't near full on my inventory. Still, I went through everything, organized it, so all gear/weapons are stored on one Retainer, while all craft and other items are stored on another. I got rid of redundant gear (which seems to add up, especially as you do dungeons, quests, etc), sold off materials used in crafts I'd long since out-leveled (it's easy enough to gather materials needed for the occasional one-off crafts), and in general, just cleaned up. I even got rid of blue items I had no further use for. They were just sitting in my inventory, taking up space.
Point is, 750 or so spaces, without even counting all the other forms of alternative storage provided, is plenty of room, if yo'ure not just letting crap pile up.
My two gil.
No problems here. Especially after they keep on explaining how servers are set up and that extra space for storage to everyone without barrier will do more harm than good. Granted, I think they should make bags similar to FFXI in that you have to pay 10 million, 20 million, 40 million and 80 million to unlock four additional ones (up to 200 inventory space total). Though that's moreso to add another gil sink while giving more inventory and having a substantial barrier.
With regards to SE wanting money -- they pledged all mogstation purchases will go back into the game and not be profits a few times in the past (more specifically, they are using them to buy more and more servers for housing). In addition to them selling dyes for $1 or so, or aesthetic earrings and necklaces for $2 or so. A single mount as well, though they provide enough content every three months -- as well as new mounts to earn in game -- that it isn't as much of a problem as WoW reskinning 50 times in an expansion and releasing the only unique models within the -ingame- store, while simultaneous providing almost no content for the players to consume.
All in all, this is no different from having multiple accounts. Which I personally do (three legacy, two of which are mine), so I am able to trade to myself. The reason they disallowed trading to your other characters was because of RMT (though I never understood it as RMT hacks and has multiple accounts at their disposal for trade, so it harms legit alt players instead) and to make alts that much harder to play (even though it is already pretty rough getting multiple characters to max level). The same could be said with having multiple characters per account or paying $14.99 instead of the option of $12.99 for a single character in the game. People with multiple accounts will always have an advantage in some way, but with FFXIV, they have so many attunements and things to get past to make having a second character or account feel like a second job just to get even minor worth out of it.
Not to mention that crafting has a lot of management of materials, gathering, etc. It will be a full time job (in addition to all of the work getting there) to make use of any addition functions, be it on a second account, character or focusing retainers on a single character (not to mention increasing workfold in collecting ventures and the like).
Well, they aren't exactly pay2win, no. But it still sucks that they use real money to get them, with $15 sub fee they should earn enough to have an all inclusive game. Then again, Wows RMT mounts are just as bad of course but that isn't a good excuse.
Yeah, I see a problem with them.
The difference is that we dont need an extra mount in WoW, thats just cosmetic. On the other hand, we do need extra bank space so that makes it worse than wow mounts.
I would pay for retainers if the 2 bucks per retainer got discounted from the subscription (1 retainer per month?), i can live with that. As it is now, I wont support such double dipping greed.
But that's just it, you don't need it, unless you are an extreme packrat who holds on to a ton of crap.
Also, people seem to be getting entirely the wrong idea of what Retainers are, and there's a degree of misinformation/misunderstanding going around.
Yes, Retainers can store stuff for you (175 extra slots per retainer)
However, they do more than that...
1. They can be trained into jobs, geared up and sent on 'Ventures', in which they come back with various items, which can be used, sold, etc. They also level up, and as they do, and as you equip them with better gear, they have a chance of coming back with better stuff. You can either request they bring back specific items (helpful if you're a crafter, etc), or send them out and see what they come back with, etc.
2. You sell your merchandise through them.
The thing is, between your own inventory, the Retainers inventory, and all the other alternate storage provided for other items (quest items, crystals, etc. etc.), your base character has almost 1000 slots of storage.
Not including the alternate storage, you have about 750 slots of normal storage space. That's on a plain character, as you get it when created.
With the way things stack in this game, and the fact that old/used gear can be converted to Materia and sold, or re-applied to new gear, etc... there's very little reason to hold on to gear indefinitely. My character's been around since 1.0 and I have a *lot* of stuff, both carried over and obtained during 2.0/3.0.
Yet, I'm not even close to worrying about running out of room. I'd have to completely stop paying attention to my inventory and just let it go for it to fill up. As it stands, I stay on top of it.. I sell off stuff that's worth it, I sell junk to NPCs, I convert or otherwise get rid of old gear that I'll have no use for anymore, etc. etc.
All my AF gear, and Seasonal/Special items are stored in an Armoire where I never even have to deal with them. Crystals/Shards/Clusters do not take up space in your regular inventory, as they would and have in other games, so you save space there. Quest items get their own separate storage, and do not take up space in your regular inventory. And so on.
If you're smart, and use your space intelligentely, it is very easy to maintain, and not let crap pile up to the point that you need to even consider buying a retainer for storage purposes.
This complaint is extremely over-blown and exaggerated... often by people looking for something... anything... they can to try and turn favor away from the game. I've seen several attempts by people to flat out lie about the game, just to turn people away from it (pathetic as that is). That the only avenue they seem to have is misinformation, exaggeration or fabrication, is pretty telling.
So long as those people continue to post exaggerations or misinformation about the game, people like myself will continue to post clarifications to make sure people know the truth of the matter.
Edit: Also... what danwest said after me
Rojo,
I do also have an issue with the double dipping too. HOWEVER with that said at least SE has made it very clear they will take that extra money and not count it as profit; they will take that extra money and make more content and build a Data Center for the EU Folks. SE has done what they have said they were going to do. There is an EU data center PLUS they come out with Content every 3 to 4 months. If you take a look at the last subscription MMO in WOW you will see they go 12+ months without a content patch before an XPAC. FFXIV had a Content patch in Jan, Feb, and March this year and in the Jan patch they had instances added with these patch. So from my point of view as much as I hate the double dipping and cash shop, SE has kept their word on making content for the game with that money and not count it as Profit. That is the only reason I am not railing against what they are doing because they are proving to hold to a Different Standard than other MMO publishers. SE has made a Quality MMO so I can live with a few of the things they have done.
Yes you do have to be some what of a pack rat to need all the space. My wife is and thats why she is paying for 2 more retainers. She has all kinds of crafting mats on the retainers and its not gear, just crafting mats. Yea she can sell the low level stuff BUT if she needs it she does not want to have to buy it again. O well what are you going to do. Different strokes different folks lol.
You have to be a crazy crafter to need all those extra retainers its nuts. This was added because people who wanted to max every crafter requested it. Then there were those who enjoyed the extra things the retainers could do who wanted more so they charge for them. Don't see any problem with it .
YOU DO NOT NEED THEM AT ALL.
I'd consider than an extreme case.
I craft as well, but only ever keep a stock of materials I'll be using "currently", for crafting.. .be it for new gear, or for leveling, etc.
I'd go nuts having that much material to sort through lol, nevermind the extra retainer business.
In fairness, though, your wife could also change the way she maintains/manages her inventory, and clear up all that space, making the additional retainers unnecessary.
Hell, I'd be looking at all of it, thinking, "I could craft up all of this stuff, and sell the items on the market..."
For me, if I need to craft something lower level, I go gather the req'd mats, or ask a FC mate if they happen to have some. Sometimes, the FC bank keeps common materials on-hand for its members, etc. Failing all of those things, I'll look it up on the market, though that's a last resort, as I hate buying anything I could gather myself. In any case, I can have the materials I need for a craft (multiple, actually, accounting for possible fails, or not getting HQ, etc), within10-15 minutes tops.
But yeah, as you say... different strokes.
My main point is, it's in no way mandatory, and very avoidable.
Yes it is very avoidable. She is just a pack rat of crafting mats and she will not change
. Hey at least SE is using that extra $24 for 6 months towards new content and not as profit 
I will say in a F2P game bag space is very mandatory, I played Neverwinter and you had to buy extra bag space, which is why I hate F2P games.
I'm not sure how much extra space you get in GW2, but each extra retainer in FF14 gives you 175 extra slots, PLUS the ability to list 20 items on the Market Board, (which is essentially 20 more slots if you want to assign ridiculous money values to an item for sale just to store it) PLUS the ability to send your retainer out to gather stuff for you.
Again, like others have said if you manage your inventory well and don't hoard a lot of stuff, you can get by with 2 retainers.
I personally got two extra ones because I craft a lot, plus I've hoarded every single dungeon drop from the new Heavensward dungeons to have available as I level up my other jobs. I'm a Legacy player so paying for the 2 extra retainers is like paying for a normal subscription that everyone else does.
Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
The idea that additional retainers are entirely "optional" is hogwash. They have a vanity system in FFXIV:ARR, and this encourages the collection and keeping of item sets for the duration of the character's existence. They also give a single character the option of playing every class in the game given enough time. In addition, new item sets are released for each class with every patch.
The current inventory system is unsustainable and many players who took the option of playing multiple jobs back in 2.0 are now suffering from inventory bloat in 3.0. Inventory was brought up no less than three times at e3. It is not a small problem regardless of the denial of some players.
Edit: Oh for Pete's sake. People who use more than their two retainers are "horders?" You can play the game the way you want, but other people like to keep raid sets they've earned for various classes because they'd be very hard to get once the content becomes ancient and the community is forced to focus on the new stuff or be stretched thin over many years of content.
This!
Why don't you people talk about the fact that you can also pay 12.99$ (instead of 14.99$) to get 1 character per server.
Since you really only need 1 character (you can level all classes/jobs/crafting/gathering on the same character, and it's even encouraged to level them all on the same character anyways), that's a nice thing that they did'nt have to do in the first place..
(And with the 2$ you saved from that, you can go ahead and get another retainer if you really want one for the price of a standard sub.. )
I do not have a problem with this...however:
I personally have all crafters over lvl 50 so i do have a huge amounts of mats, so I do use all 8 retainers. I am not the normal player, I tend to keep large inventories of materials because I craft so much.
Yes , you only need one character and pay 12.99 a month. You will be absolutely fine with it.
However if you want to be a crafter, you could be efficient and keep a streamlined inventory or you could pay and keep a large inventory.
The game is that good, that I do not mind paying a higher subscription fee. I would rather everyone pay a higher subscription fee and there be no optional retainers, but not everyone is going to want to pay that much a month. So it is not a bad compromise - the trade off is that there are more players.
As it stands the game requires inventory management if you actively play more than a few jobs. However there is like 1300+ free inventory space available to you pretty much from the beginning of the game, so it is hardly insufficient. The part of the playerbase that truly needs more inventory space is extremely niche. The rest is just unable to deal with a minor inconvenience and assuming they should be entitled to more inventory space just because of that.
I agree. I would never play a game where it double dips you with monthly sub fee as well as a cash shop.
Call it hogwash all you like. It doesn't change the facts.
The fact of the matter is there are many people in-game, including those who've played since 1.0, have most/all jobs to cap, etc. etc.. who are doing just fine with the inventory provided with a base account.
Conversely, there are people who started late into 2.0, whom don't have all, or even most jobs to cap, but have purchased additional retainers, because they like to hold on to a lot of stuff that others would likely get rid of.
There are people who don't even craft or gather, but just like to collect gear across all their jobs. They might get an extra retainer over time, but again.. it will not be due to an inherent lack of "enough space", but because their own habits will require it.
To show just a couple examples, for comparison... Some people like to keep a ton of materials on-hand at all times to craft with. Those people will need more space. I choose to keep only a small supply of "common" or "current" mats on hand. Otherwise, I get what I need, as I need it, and don't keep any "back-stock", so to speak. Hence, crafting demands very, very little space for me. Maybe 10 slots of retainer space, at most.
So, when a person started, how many jobs they have to cap, or whether they craft/gather is not an automatic indication of anything where inventory requirements are concerned. What determines their requirements is how much they choose to hold on to.
To date, there's not a person I've spoken to who's bought an extra retainer who has not also indicated that they got one just to hold on to a lot of extra stuff they don't "need", but want to keep "just because" - for sentimental reasons, or whatever. Or, they're crafters who keep tons of materials on-hand at all times, even stuff they may not need for weeks at a time.
Some of these people describe themselves as hoarders, and in every case readily concede they could easily drop back to the basic 2 retainers by tossing out or selling off the stuff they're holding on to and don't need, have no use for, can replace, etc... They choose to maintain the extra space. They don't have to.
So say what you like. The facts, and actual experiences of others prove otherwise.