Originally posted by JonBonJawa Originally posted by Ginaz So one of the biggest issue for them is...how the gun sights look???
can you read?
no, serious question. Can you?
The info what the technical blockers are was outlined in the chairman letter.
I would draw it on an Etch-A-Sketch for you, if it wouldn´t be so specific.
I read it. It just seems like an awful lot of time and effort went into the design of gun sights. Because, you know, it's not like we have 20+ years of fps examples to draw upon on how sights should work. A 4th rate indie dev team with a handful of people with little experience can slap together a workable fps these days in a year or so. What they're telling me is that a large company with a 100-200 experienced industry veterans can't do the same. That should be very worrying.
And let us not forget......this is the FPS module......using an FPS engine.......made by FPS developers (in the past).......and they can't make it work. This is like a painter with all his gear pushing back when his painting will be done because he doesn't like the hue of the blue paint he uses.....
Originally posted by Ganksinatra And let us not forget......this is the FPS module......using an FPS engine.......made by FPS developers (in the past).......and they can't make it work. This is like a painter with all his gear pushing back when his painting will be done because he doesn't like the hue of the blue paint he uses.....
Let us not forget ... they have 25 ex-CryTek experts working on the CryEngine FPS module. Some of those guys HAVE WRITTEN the relevant parts of the CryEngine.
If THEY have to work on some blockers, there ARE some things that need reworking and its NOT trivial.
And its NOT about Gunsights.
Its about a fundamental change in how the engine works. First person animation and Third person animations are NOT faked. What you see is what the other guy does. You are NOT seeing a predetermined prerecorded animation sequence. It has been discussed in various vblogs from CIG lately.
But our brain and muscles compensate so why do i suddenly have a worse vision in a game than in real life? How is that realistic?
It's simply wrong. They have no idea what they are doing and it shows more and more in their ridiculous "realistic" choices.
For VR: No, your brain will not auto compensate because the brain does not have the sensory information it has when you are actually running. It will not compensate and it will just be irritating as hell.
I agree with you that head bobbing is irritating.
Let CIG know in the forum feedback threads !
Have fun
I am a day one backer and i am tired of telling them about their fundamental mistakes over and over. It is pretty clear to me that whoever is in charge there has not the slightest idea what he is doing and what real life looks like. He lives in the 80's where head bobbing was the cool thing even when it was frowned upon by professionals back then.
The same is true for this blurring nonsense. It is not realistic and will never be realistic so what real game designers do is not put it into their game as it brings no improvement to the game.
This whole project has been a train wreck waiting to happen from the start with a game designer on the engine that has no idea what he is doing and is surrounded by people that don't seem to be able to tell him he is screwing up.
This reminds me of George Lucas and the Star Wars prequels.
Have faith!
PS: I lost all faith in this because if you make mistakes like this and if you make mistakes like they did with the Arena Modules then it's pretty clear you have no idea how to design a game.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling." - Michael Bitton Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." - SEANMCAD
To be fair I think a lot of devs get carried away going for the wow factor before tempering their ideas in. During Elite's alpha/beta there was far too much space dust, too much film style glare etc. People moaned and to the dev's credit they acted quite quickly and toned it right down.
I think SC gets a semi-deserved bad rap because they are really slow in implementing changes based on community feedback, there's also the concern that "rule of cool" will trump good design decisions as it's so prevalent elsewhere.
To be fair I think a lot of devs get carried away going for the wow factor before tempering their ideas in. During Elite's alpha/beta there was far too much space dust, too much film style glare etc. People moaned and to the dev's credit they acted quite quickly and toned it right down.
I think SC gets a semi-deserved bad rap because they are really slow in implementing changes based on community feedback, there's also the concern that "rule of cool" will trump good design decisions as it's so prevalent elsewhere.
There is a slight difference between overdoing effects and putting in effects that not only are unrealistic but at the same time a detriment to the game as a whole.
Head Bobbing and Aim Blurr are two things that should NEVER be in a game EVER. Those are amateur mistakes and not overzealous artists that flaunt their effects.
Those two are in the top 10 of the: "What not to put into your 3D shooter." list.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling." - Michael Bitton Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." - SEANMCAD
To be fair I think a lot of devs get carried away going for the wow factor before tempering their ideas in. During Elite's alpha/beta there was far too much space dust, too much film style glare etc. People moaned and to the dev's credit they acted quite quickly and toned it right down.
I think SC gets a semi-deserved bad rap because they are really slow in implementing changes based on community feedback, there's also the concern that "rule of cool" will trump good design decisions as it's so prevalent elsewhere.
There is a slight difference between overdoing effects and putting in effects that not only are unrealistic but at the same time a detriment to the game as a whole.
Head Bobbing and Aim Blurr are two things that should NEVER be in a game EVER. Those are amateur mistakes and not overzealous artists that flaunt their effects.
Those two are in the top 10 of the: "What not to put into your 3D shooter." list.
Fixed that for you
"Those two are in the top 10 of the: "What not to put into my 3D shooter." list."
they should do less updates and just release Star Marine, which should mute some of the vapourware criticism though that will be replaced by those unhappy with the product, bugs, gameplay, animation - soon...
It has been another big week for the Star Marine team! We’ve continued our focus on animation-related issues, as we see getting the unified first/third-person animation as our biggest goal. That’s one of the most important things that will carry over into the rest of Star Citizen, in Arena Commander, the Social Module, Squadron 42 and beyond. Other team members are using this time to continue perfecting other systems, including weapons and the general design of the Gold Horizon level. You can find details on our progress and ongoing blockers below. We’ve also included an updated video showing the recent lighting changes to the Gold Horizon level; it should show off the changes a little better than last week. Enjoy!
Please note that next week’s Star Marine update may come the following Monday (August 10 rather than August 7.) We expect it will be all-hands-on-deck to support the Gamescom presentation on Friday!
Gameplay Progress
Netcode! The word should make our blood run cold at this point… but we have this covered. Network programmers at Illfonic and our friends at Wyrmbyte have made performance improvements with regards to player prediction, head look smoothing and body rotation smoothing. The game sends fewer packets and it now spreads out the sends for frame optimization. Player prediction should be greatly improved for our next internal playtest, and these changes are being integrated into material we’re making available for the team heading to Gamescom.
There was plenty of other work on the gameplay side, too. Designers adjusted the ‘ready’ pose of the characters to keep muzzles pointed closer to the center of the screen, making the transition to ADS faster and more intuitive. Overall balance/feel changes include reducing the spread parameters of firing from the ready position while moving, adjusting movement/rotational spread modifiers across all weapons (move more, hit less!) and adjusting armor values based on feedback from playtests. Fixed weapons have been adjusted by remove clients and we’ve re-implemented some content previously disabled including the DoF mask for scoped weapons (sniper rifles) and the third person camera (insert key) in Free Play Practice mode. Playtest feedback has also caused us to adjust the rate of fire for pistol weapons.
Bug fixes are ongoing, too. We’ve stopped the crosshair from appearing in the 3rd person view, something necessary to fulfill the dream of a first person universe. UI will be largely disabled in the third person, much like Arena Commander. We have a temporary fix for an issue that was causing items to randomly teleport around the level, with a permanent change inbound. The personal shield not showing up in players hands is resolved (check out some screenshots of the shield in action!) and we adjusted the muzzle flash in third person view because the VFX was scaling up too much. Issues with the charging station are resolved, and we’ve prevented players from swapping weapons while throwing a grenade (one thing at a time, marines!)
Gameplay Blockers
Destructible items randomly teleport around the level, need a long-term solution for this.
Netcode has improved, but if we still see instances of jerky movement from jukes, on stairs, jumping, and stocked weapon animations. Work on this is ongoing.
Working on tracer offsets when strafing.
Gadget deploy in the world is inconsistent. When you are placing a mine, you really want to be sure of its location.
There are issues with the implementation of the Item Port system, as the way items are attached to a space ship are different than when they are attached to a player character. We see issues with magazines staying in place in the world on a reload, issues with characters dying and leaving their items behind in the world. We’ll need support from Paul Reindell to look at this as soon as Gamescom is over.
UI / HUD Progress
Interface work this week includes a new health display art widget in the HUD. We’re still hooking this up to gameplay code so that it properly reports changes in injury states, but it’s looking pretty cool! The old health widget is out and the player heal button prompt is now fully implemented. We also have the directional hit indicator art ready for hookup, with the initial implementation for review scheduled to be play tested early next week. We’ve adjusted the position of the heavy helmet to reduce the amount of screen space it takes up, and we’ve hooked up and debugged issues with chat displayed through the HUD. Finally, we smashed one tricky bug which was causing your gun to be drawn on top of certain HUD widgets. In our next update, we should be able to share some cool UI work… so stay tuned!
Animation Progress
As we’ve mentioned, getting the animation exactly right is our biggest effort right now. This week, animators hooked up the fire animations for the sniper rifle, finished a pass on the crouch start and stop, resolved ongoing crouch ADS issues, reduced weapon recoil animations on the laser rifle and finished work on the third person crouch-to-prone transitions. Whew! We also kicked off work on jukes for pistols, locomotion transitions and gadget throw animations. Lastly, we will also admit to breaking (and then fixing!) the reloading animation while in ADS. Can’t make an omelet without cracking a few eggs! Many people have asked about the new character rig, and so we’re happy to provide a short update: it’s still undergoing testing by the Lead Animation programmer in Frankfurt, but we received provisional approval earlier today and now hope to have the final rig for the retargeting process first thing Monday morning.
Animation Blockers
Will need to re-target all animations on the new rig.
Started working on crouch stops, this is ongoing.
Updates to unarmed and Pistol melee animations have not started yet. Stocked weapons need clean up and balancing.
Injured locomotion animations not finished, multiple states need clarification.
EVA style animations for ZeroG not able to be cleaned up and used until we get the new rig. This is needed for ZeroG gameplay on Gold Horizon and SATABall.
Art Progress
Our artists have focused on two major areas where they can continue to improve Star Marine: individual weapons and the overall Gold Horizon map. Weapons work this week included new decals on the P4AR and work on the red dot scope for the ATT4. This scope (used with no magnification) was chosen since we put the Ghost Ring as the default sight on the P4AR. Artists also considered their ‘look and feel’ re-work of Gold Horizon assets, which will be an ongoing item in future reports. This week’s effort included changing stair heights and developing two versions of all panel textures (clean and dirty.) Work on this item will likely continue up until release. This and other art bug fixes are ongoing. Finally, art provided graphics for the lobby UI Free Play practice mode, which will be hooked up next week.
Art Blockers
We are continuing a re-work of certain Gold Horizon assets so we can use it as a building block for future releases.
The team is reviewing 1st person hit reaction HUD mockups, iterating on the look with Chris and the team in the UK. As mentioned previously, this is a big team effort requiring audio, animation, VFX, and HUD UI to make it look and feel just right.
I suspect you mean Illfonic and not the CIG Star Marine team: "Star Citizen support studio cuts half-dozen staffers as work on crowdfunded game’s FPS module nears completion"
"We have laid off 6 members of our staff," IllFonic president Charles Brungardt told GI.biz. "Actually, only three of those were on the Star Citizen team. However, our work for Star Citizen on the FPS module is almost completed, so we are also reassigning more and more members of that team to other projects. Unfortunately we didn't have room for all positions on our other projects and had to lay some people off, which is never an easy decision. We appreciate the opportunity we've been given to work on Star Citizen and we know the individuals affected will land on their feet as they were extremely talented which any team would be lucky to have them."
Comments
can you read?
no, serious question. Can you?
The info what the technical blockers are was outlined in the chairman letter.
I would draw it on an Etch-A-Sketch for you, if it wouldn´t be so specific.
I read it. It just seems like an awful lot of time and effort went into the design of gun sights. Because, you know, it's not like we have 20+ years of fps examples to draw upon on how sights should work.
A 4th rate indie dev team with a handful of people with little experience can slap together a workable fps these days in a year or so. What they're telling me is that a large company with a 100-200 experienced industry veterans can't do the same. That should be very worrying.
And let us not forget......this is the FPS module......using an FPS engine.......made by FPS developers (in the past).......and they can't make it work. This is like a painter with all his gear pushing back when his painting will be done because he doesn't like the hue of the blue paint he uses.....Let us not forget ... they have 25 ex-CryTek experts working on the CryEngine FPS module. Some of those guys HAVE WRITTEN the relevant parts of the CryEngine.
If THEY have to work on some blockers, there ARE some things that need reworking and its NOT trivial.
And its NOT about Gunsights.
Its about a fundamental change in how the engine works. First person animation and Third person animations are NOT faked. What you see is what the other guy does. You are NOT seeing a predetermined prerecorded animation sequence. It has been discussed in various vblogs from CIG lately.
Have fun
I am a day one backer and i am tired of telling them about their fundamental mistakes over and over. It is pretty clear to me that whoever is in charge there has not the slightest idea what he is doing and what real life looks like. He lives in the 80's where head bobbing was the cool thing even when it was frowned upon by professionals back then.
The same is true for this blurring nonsense. It is not realistic and will never be realistic so what real game designers do is not put it into their game as it brings no improvement to the game.
This whole project has been a train wreck waiting to happen from the start with a game designer on the engine that has no idea what he is doing and is surrounded by people that don't seem to be able to tell him he is screwing up.
This reminds me of George Lucas and the Star Wars prequels.
Have faith!
PS: I lost all faith in this because if you make mistakes like this and if you make mistakes like they did with the Arena Modules then it's pretty clear you have no idea how to design a game.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
To be fair I think a lot of devs get carried away going for the wow factor before tempering their ideas in. During Elite's alpha/beta there was far too much space dust, too much film style glare etc. People moaned and to the dev's credit they acted quite quickly and toned it right down.
I think SC gets a semi-deserved bad rap because they are really slow in implementing changes based on community feedback, there's also the concern that "rule of cool" will trump good design decisions as it's so prevalent elsewhere.
There is a slight difference between overdoing effects and putting in effects that not only are unrealistic but at the same time a detriment to the game as a whole.
Head Bobbing and Aim Blurr are two things that should NEVER be in a game EVER. Those are amateur mistakes and not overzealous artists that flaunt their effects.
Those two are in the top 10 of the: "What not to put into your 3D shooter." list.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
Fixed that for you
"Those two are in the top 10 of the: "What not to put into my 3D shooter." list."
they should do less updates and just release Star Marine, which should mute some of the vapourware criticism though that will be replaced by those unhappy with the product, bugs, gameplay, animation - soon...
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14873-Star-Marine-Status-Update
Latest Star Marine Update.
Have fun
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It has been another big week for the Star Marine team! We’ve continued our focus on animation-related issues, as we see getting the unified first/third-person animation as our biggest goal. That’s one of the most important things that will carry over into the rest of Star Citizen, in Arena Commander, the Social Module, Squadron 42 and beyond. Other team members are using this time to continue perfecting other systems, including weapons and the general design of the Gold Horizon level. You can find details on our progress and ongoing blockers below. We’ve also included an updated video showing the recent lighting changes to the Gold Horizon level; it should show off the changes a little better than last week. Enjoy!
Please note that next week’s Star Marine update may come the following Monday (August 10 rather than August 7.) We expect it will be all-hands-on-deck to support the Gamescom presentation on Friday!
Gameplay Progress
Netcode! The word should make our blood run cold at this point… but we have this covered. Network programmers at Illfonic and our friends at Wyrmbyte have made performance improvements with regards to player prediction, head look smoothing and body rotation smoothing. The game sends fewer packets and it now spreads out the sends for frame optimization. Player prediction should be greatly improved for our next internal playtest, and these changes are being integrated into material we’re making available for the team heading to Gamescom.
There was plenty of other work on the gameplay side, too. Designers adjusted the ‘ready’ pose of the characters to keep muzzles pointed closer to the center of the screen, making the transition to ADS faster and more intuitive. Overall balance/feel changes include reducing the spread parameters of firing from the ready position while moving, adjusting movement/rotational spread modifiers across all weapons (move more, hit less!) and adjusting armor values based on feedback from playtests. Fixed weapons have been adjusted by remove clients and we’ve re-implemented some content previously disabled including the DoF mask for scoped weapons (sniper rifles) and the third person camera (insert key) in Free Play Practice mode. Playtest feedback has also caused us to adjust the rate of fire for pistol weapons.
Bug fixes are ongoing, too. We’ve stopped the crosshair from appearing in the 3rd person view, something necessary to fulfill the dream of a first person universe. UI will be largely disabled in the third person, much like Arena Commander. We have a temporary fix for an issue that was causing items to randomly teleport around the level, with a permanent change inbound. The personal shield not showing up in players hands is resolved (check out some screenshots of the shield in action!) and we adjusted the muzzle flash in third person view because the VFX was scaling up too much. Issues with the charging station are resolved, and we’ve prevented players from swapping weapons while throwing a grenade (one thing at a time, marines!)
Gameplay Blockers
UI / HUD Progress
Interface work this week includes a new health display art widget in the HUD. We’re still hooking this up to gameplay code so that it properly reports changes in injury states, but it’s looking pretty cool! The old health widget is out and the player heal button prompt is now fully implemented. We also have the directional hit indicator art ready for hookup, with the initial implementation for review scheduled to be play tested early next week. We’ve adjusted the position of the heavy helmet to reduce the amount of screen space it takes up, and we’ve hooked up and debugged issues with chat displayed through the HUD. Finally, we smashed one tricky bug which was causing your gun to be drawn on top of certain HUD widgets. In our next update, we should be able to share some cool UI work… so stay tuned!
Animation Progress
As we’ve mentioned, getting the animation exactly right is our biggest effort right now. This week, animators hooked up the fire animations for the sniper rifle, finished a pass on the crouch start and stop, resolved ongoing crouch ADS issues, reduced weapon recoil animations on the laser rifle and finished work on the third person crouch-to-prone transitions. Whew! We also kicked off work on jukes for pistols, locomotion transitions and gadget throw animations. Lastly, we will also admit to breaking (and then fixing!) the reloading animation while in ADS. Can’t make an omelet without cracking a few eggs!
Many people have asked about the new character rig, and so we’re happy to provide a short update: it’s still undergoing testing by the Lead Animation programmer in Frankfurt, but we received provisional approval earlier today and now hope to have the final rig for the retargeting process first thing Monday morning.
Animation Blockers
Art Progress
Our artists have focused on two major areas where they can continue to improve Star Marine: individual weapons and the overall Gold Horizon map. Weapons work this week included new decals on the P4AR and work on the red dot scope for the ATT4. This scope (used with no magnification) was chosen since we put the Ghost Ring as the default sight on the P4AR. Artists also considered their ‘look and feel’ re-work of Gold Horizon assets, which will be an ongoing item in future reports. This week’s effort included changing stair heights and developing two versions of all panel textures (clean and dirty.) Work on this item will likely continue up until release. This and other art bug fixes are ongoing. Finally, art provided graphics for the lobby UI Free Play practice mode, which will be hooked up next week.
Art Blockers
Next Star Marine Status Update.
Have fun
Next StarMarine Update.
Have fun
I suspect you mean Illfonic and not the CIG Star Marine team:
"Star Citizen support studio cuts half-dozen staffers as work on crowdfunded game’s FPS module nears completion"
Have fun