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Early Access and KS MMO's are devoid of Artistic Value
sludgebeard
Member RarePosts: 788
I originally thought the Kickstarter/Indie MMO fade would breathe new life into MMO's.
I was cautiously excited for games like "The Repopulation" and "Pathfinder", I accepted that games like Shroud of the Avatar would be made simply off name alone, but my gut reaction was "Hey at least with all that money a decent looking game will come out."
Well now I feel like weve entered this horrible period where Kickstarter/Early Access MMO's are completely devoid of any real passion, art, style, or interesting mechanics.
Let me give you a few examples of what I mean, just simply going from an artistic point of view on some of these games, and why I think they lack passion.
Here are some pictures of the Character Models in Pathfinder, Shroud of the Avatar, Repopulation respectively.
Pathfinder:
Shroud:
Repopulation:
Look at those Character Models! I mean I understand that alot of these companies are working with limited assets in many cases, but the fact that so many of them seem to use such stock-unispired character models is just depressing. Literally the only thing seperating these characters is the relative setting they are in, and even then you could arguably interchange each one into the other world with a simple costume change.
There is just no charm to these characters, they dont have personality, they dont bring you into another world. I would actually rather have WoW's 8 different faces and 4 hairstyles that are at least artistically drawn, then allow you to modify your character's every feature yet give them no depth or range of character.
To me, this is a very sad state we are in, when AAA games have such amazing graphics, but lack any form of interesting gameplay, and then indie games are giving nothing new, just living off nostalgia but with terrible unspired graphics. This is literally nothing I want, and everything I feared happening to MMO's in one sitting. The games are getting more expensive, they are becoming less artistic and original, and I still havent found one with a noteworthy Idea in over a decade.
Anyone else upset by this trend of Kickstarter/Early Access MMO's being devoid of any life or originality?
Comments
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Cherry picking. Go look at Camelot Unchained, has probably the best art in the MMO business at the moment.
But seriously, you thought Kickstarter MMOs would look amazing? Graphics are the thing that inflates a budget THE MOST.
While you concerns seem valid the problem is that you're focusing solely on the graphics department. As mentioned these are crowfunded, limited budget mmos in their early access stage. Such character models are acceptable given the circumstances. And frankly anyone who thought that they would enter these games at this stage hoping to see Skyforge or Black Desert like graphics have been at least naive.
Again, unrealistic expectations and hype-building from the usual suspects( mmo fanbase) is what will probably drive these games to the ground, like they did with each one of their AAA counterparts that came out the last few years.
I like the dwarf. He just strike me as cute.
I bet he spends a half hour each morning waxing that moustache.
Here is why this thread is wrong and has no discussion value
Only 3 examples given of MMOs that are known the least for their graphics (low budget projects) and are "proof" for a trend.
Budget art has nothing to do with passion.
Classic comparison to WoW - (They are hugely different btw)
There are many games out there that prove you wrong. Games like Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, No Man's Sky, etc etc with different budgets and focus...
Look harder
Well have a bigger issue with KS,it has NO GUIDELINES or standards,basically ANYONE can start up a kickstarter.Then unless there are some severe complaints KS couldn't care less what is going on inside each operation.
Player models are not just because of KS but more a case of ANY developer and MANY developers are cutting corners on development.The problem is not enough people understand what they are even looking at and i guess many just don't care.
Even in the best games i still see totally cheap models.There are a lot of factors that go into like polygons and being able to run a game at a very cheap cost by not needing any bandwidth to speak of.I still see model parts with the bare minimum vertices like at most an elbow joint and knee joint.Most have no neck movement,facial are usually static and no ankle joints either.
Then on top of the model i like to see separation in the gear or perhaps attached items,this is again very seldom seen or hit n miss in games,so the effort is not always there.Developers like to make excuses about oh it is unrealistic to expect all the detail,we would never get a game done.
Well my answer to developers is this,WHY are you making the game then,is it not about passion for game design or is it simply to make a buck?The answer is rather obvious,we see it in our games.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Believe that,i have not seen a game that looks like SOME effort was put into it since FFXIV "TESO aside,never played it" and before that VERY few games.The genre is simply flooded with thousands of developers out to make some money,they really do not care one bit about the quality of their product.
Everyone or at least developers keep crying foul on cost of making games,well obviously the barrier is not that steep since we have thousands of games flooding the genre that should never be in the market.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Obviously they make games because they have a passion and interest in games themselves. If not, they would earn a living doing something else.
Again, a passion for making a game isn't visible in the graphical outcome of a game. You see it in the dev videos, streams, the writing and lore. I can't go to a store and look at products and gauge their creator's passion... because that is ridiculous.
Mind boggling that people with no experience in creating, judge a creation with authority.
I have two things in response to this post.
The first, I think Camelot Unchained has more of a sound design and unique development than any of the games I listed, but in no way are the graphics part of "The Best art in the MMO Business".
The Best Art in the MMO business right now, is a game called "Black Desert", a Korean MMO we will be lucky to see in the West by late 2016/early '17.
Second, its not about the graphics of these games being "Amazing" its about them being so terrible that they are literally the stock graphics that come with a graphics engine. For example Shroud of the Avatar is literally still using character models an faces that comes with Unity. And thats just not acceptable!
Its not even that Unity is the reason why Shroud has such terrible character models, you can do a ton of amazing art in Unity, its that no one is complaining about the character models, because they are all clinging on the hope that the core gameplay will be enough to match their nostalgia. To me Shroud is one of the biggest scams out there in MMO's, worse than Star Citizen or Pathfinder...actually no Pathfinder is just as bad.
Where as Shroud is preying on Ultima Fans, Pathfinder is preying on DnD fans, and making them pay monthly for a completely pre-pre alpha game. So in that respect at least Shroud is trying a bit harder to conceal their complete development malaise.
Ok, so! First of all, Shroud has like zero races. There are humans. Keep in mind that there are stretch goals to add other races. Whatever, not the point. Art is expensive, so it's no surprise there is a lack of races. Secondly, with regards to Unity, it's no wonder that they use stock art (if they do). With Unity UMA, you are able to offer great customization, so buying assets or leasing assets is no surprise and you'll see it happen more often (even in published games) since you won't really be able to tell the difference anyway. Same will happen with Unreal store, so it's a foregone conclusion that companies selling asset packs will become more popular. This is not a KS or Crowdfunding issue, it's an industry issue.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
I thought that was marketing?
That's even worse! If they only have humans, they should be able to make the humans look much better and defiently not still be using stock materials from Unity. They have raised 7 million dollars, 5 million of that was raised through their store which sells donkey pets for 20 dollars, you know who made that donkey? Not the Avatar team, it can be bought with a liscense from the unity store. Like I said they have a very good thing going from a business standpoint, but it's extremely shady, shows no effort what so ever and continue to drag the genre down and in a thousand different directions. It's a sad state we are in folks.
the rule of MMOs is now Business > Passion and it bleeds through on every screenshot.
First, the artistic value of something is determined by more than just the quality of the artwork.
Second, is there an MMO that you do like?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm not sure if these are your screenshots or something you took from online somewhere... or even if they were intentionally created on the lowest settings of each game. But they don't seem to represent the projects at all...
The Repopulation:
Shroud of the Avatar
Pathfinder Online
So... are these the kinds of models and textures you get in AAA games? No. Are they getting 10's of millions of dollars to fund their project? Also no. So, you need to focus more on the quality of gameplay than the shinies they're delivering for you to look at. And as someone else said, these small development studios often tweak and improve their graphics slower and over time because they don't have as large a staff for the work.
It's not easy making good textures, models, or animations. And it takes a LOT of work to do so.
Find me something of artistic value within either Shroud, Pathfinder, or Repop. Maybe Repop you can say the Purple sky, but purple sky doesnt forgive all the flaws that game has unfortunately.
Also FFXIV was ok for a couple of weeks I guess. So no I guess not really.
But isnt that the real issue im talking about? For example, there used to be some solid indie MMO's out there that despite their flaws, at least had a certain level of charm that made them playable. Now the indie games are so bad that they not only lack the polish of AAA games, but also the creativity.
Its like you would think with how uncreative AAA games have become, there would be more creative and more charming indie MMO games, but there isnt! Its just more cash-cows, more chasing nostalgia rather than new ideas, and a complete lack of realistic goal setting because they can just throw out a half finished game with "some good ideas" and people throw money into the void hoping to get their old games back.
Lets face it, the MMO community is filled with hopeless romantics of an MMO age long passed.
While i thin you (OP) are generalizing a bit here i am surprised as how low the artistic value is for many indie and KS mmos, considering how beautiful most indie and KS single player games are. On the single player side we have beautiful indie games like Transistor, Journey, Trine, and the upcoming KS Bloodstained. On the mmo side even indies want to be all about realism and mostly end up looking dull and uninspired.
I do like the art style of Shroud of the Avatar, it reminds me of some of the more isolated villages in some classic JRPGs. But the realistic graphics in these games is what make them look less like a piece of art and more like a dull virtual space.
TLDR: My opinion.That doesnt apply to all of them so its not fair to generalize, but there is a pattern with most small mmos. Trying to be realistic and ending up looking and feeling dull and insipid.
Ah, it's this post. Man, the past three weeks went fast!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Not necessarily. I think that things like Unity and cheap assets provide the ability for devs to create something quickly. It lowers costs and allows devs to go A to B more quickly. Remember that Korean MMOs have been doing this FOREVER!!! Ever pick up a KR MMO and think you've played this before? YUP! So BD probably only needs to budget for art because all the rest of the systems are done for them. In NA, on the other hand, we think that building from the ground-up is the only solution. It's not! I see no reason why they can't use SOME stock art and improve upon it later. Things like environments and zones would be nice to have unique.
Also, the UMA tech will allow for customization of any race, not just human. That being said, they still need the initial assets for that, too. 7 Million isn't a great deal of money. I think that the cheapest MMO I've heard of in the past is Allods which was done in Russia on a budget of like 11 Million. I can't think of a 3D MMORPG which cost less, although I'm sure the KR ones are cheaper. You won't do it in North America, though.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Turns out when you pay for a budget MMORPG that serves a niche crowd, you get a budget MMORPG.
Not sure I'd call those games "devoid of artistic value" just because they're not produced with a big budget. That's a bit like criticizing the recording quality of indie music. And if your tastes run in that direction then you're going to appreciate more than just the skin-deep visuals of a game.
Basically you can't have it both ways, so pick a direction. You're free to criticize things you like, of course, but using dramatic hyperbole ("DEVOID OF ARTISTIC VALUE!") goes beyond mere criticism.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Singling out Early Access and KS is in my opinion a bit unfair. In general I'd say most low to micro budget* Indie titles struggle with artistic presentation.
The way I see it, programmer types (the kind of people who build low to micro budget Indie titles) tend to be terrible artists (with a few exceptions of course) and skilled artists are both few and far between, plus rather expensive to hire or contract.
However, generally speaking, I don't think people play low to micro budget Indie games because they have great art. I see most of the value of such games as being gameplay design, because they make games that AAA studios would never consider. Such games are lacking in popular appeal and not likely to financially support a huge financial investment.
I admit, I have some personal issues with the KS and Early Access trend. But lacking artistic credibility has nothing to do with my issues.
I'm not disagreeing that some of these games aren't beautiful. I would have to agree. But in a way, I think that's sort of missing the point of what SOME of the games are trying to do. Produce a game that would not otherwise exist.
If they try hard and the intent is to produce a good game, I'm more than willing to overlook flaws. If they're just trying to hustle cash by turning out crap, then that's where my personal issues come into relevance.
Of course, I'm building a micro-budget game and am not a professional in the game industry. So I might be a tad biased.
* micro budget = small team or solo, self-funded, usually hobbiests or amateurs rather than industry professionals
edit: grammar fix
Another game that looks great, and is also inspired by one of my most liked games has the potential for awesomeness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa9BbLRceCA