[Column] Camelot Unchained: Pitchforks & Betas

SBFord · July 2015

There is no sense in avoiding the demon in the dungeon. Due to a lack of staff CU Beta was delayed until further notice. It’s obviously a disappointment for many backers but it's also a symbol of how much the genre has changed. Back in my day Beta wasn’t “delayed”. Beta usually had 4 stages and concluded with “open beta tests” and most scrubs like me didn’t get in until phase 4, or worst case scenario, open beta.

Read more of Timothy Eisenzimmer's Camelot Unchained: Pitchforks & Betas.

MarkJacobs · July 2015

Thanks Tim! However, I am at fault. I'm the name on the top of the studio's masthead and I've been unable to convince enough senior programmers to join the studio. I can't and won't hide behind excuses. I always said I'd be front and center when the studio had to deliver bad news (and not send out a CM) and well, here I am just as I have been on MOP and other places.

I appreciate the kind words, praise and most of all, patience. Things are really moving along nicely. Slower than we would like but nicely. Hopefully we'll have some new nice and shiny tech to show off in the coming weeks as well as a couple of other fun updates.

Thanks again to you and MMORPG for the coverage!

KenFisher · July 2015

Originally posted by MarkJacobs
[...]

Good-luck Sir.

edit: Sincere, not sarcasm. my perspective: Huge job, shit happens.

MarkJacobs · July 2015

Originally posted by XAPKen
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
[...]

Good-luck Sir.

edit: Sincere, not sarcasm. my perspective: Huge job, shit happens.

Thanks! Yeah, it's a huge job and overall, things are really moving along nicely. C.U.B.E. has even exceeded our expectations for stability, rendering speed, etc. but that is only part of the game. I'm cautiously optimistic regarding our ability to hire going forward but that guy's loss really stung because we also lost about 4 months in terms of what we spent with him but also when we told other potential candidates that the position was already filled.

The good news really is good though and that is the new hires are working out well, we are probably about to sign a deal with a contractor to help us on some custom sound/music engineering work (didn't mention that in the update because, well, I'm not willing to tell 22K+ Backers that yet) and we've got now 3 nice updates taking shape over the next 2 months.

It's going to be an interested summer/fall, one way or the other.

Thanks again for the best wishes!

Vanchora · July 2015

--- Sorry for my bad language (not my native one though). ---

@MarkJakobs

I am usually one of those silent watchers, played a lot of mmorpg's in my life spam.

First time I was moved alot was when you said you are leaving game industry..... it kinda broke my heart.

Then you came back and promised a lot.. I didn't believe.

But when I see now the way how you are talking to us it is again moving and I have to admit at the moment you got me back and I guess a lot of old timers feel the same way.

Since I don't backup any game I still wish you all the best and hope that we meet when your new project is released.

What I can see now every game you worked on, was my game style just my friends/guilds didn't stay long enough with me, so if it has to be I will came as lone ranger.

Tamanous · July 2015

Sympathy can come easily simply due to the industry. Delays are so common place that expecting a project on time almost raises more flags or else we wouldn't see the usual, "Delay launch! The game isn't ready!" posts all over the place.

If trying to be truthfully reflective of my real feelings I would describe the limitations of my full loyalty and interest as believing the following with regard to delays:

- Will the game still be released as promised without cutting corners?

- Can an accurate rescheduled date for beta and release be given and progression to match?

No worries currently though Mark! CUBE should keep me interested and it's development an interesting side to the main course (need them curves though! Can't wait for TDD styling textures too. I want to make tree houses! Oh and trees in the testing area). Waiting on that class info too.

MarkJacobs · July 2015

Originally posted by MisterZebub
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Thanks Tim! However, I am at fault. I'm the name on the top of the studio's masthead and I've been unable to convince enough senior programmers to join the studio. I can't and won't hide behind excuses. I always said I'd be front and center when the studio had to deliver bad news (and not send out a CM) and well, here I am just as I have been on MOP and other places.

I appreciate the kind words, praise and most of all, patience. Things are really moving along nicely. Slower than we would like but nicely. Hopefully we'll have some new nice and shiny tech to show off in the coming weeks as well as a couple of other fun updates.

Thanks again to you and MMORPG for the coverage!

Well on one hand that's a shame as I know you want to get this game out as soon as you can. However I think those of us who feel the game is worth waiting for will indeed wait. So my advice would be to take your time and do it right rather than feel you have to cut corners to meet some deadline.

I find it amusing that unlike other crowd funded games recently, when you mention you've hit a few rough spots the general reaction tends to be supportive and positive. I think its because you make supporters feel that you are willing to talk to them directly and take full responsibility instead of hiding behind a shuck and jive PR department. With the added bonus of letting backers take their pledge back if they begin to have doubts.

I personally feel other crowd funded game companies could benefit greatly by studying why this approach seems to work better than their own.

Thanks. There are no plans to cut corners due to the delay. That's one of the reasons we went with the whole "few, if no more, things promised at launch" Foundational Principle. We need to continue to be smart in terms of our planning, especially with this announced delay.

MarkJacobs · July 2015

Originally posted by Vanchora

--- Sorry for my bad language (not my native one though). ---

@MarkJakobs

I am usually one of those silent watchers, played a lot of mmorpg's in my life spam.

First time I was moved alot was when you said you are leaving game industry..... it kinda broke my heart.

Then you came back and promised a lot.. I didn't believe.

But when I see now the way how you are talking to us it is again moving and I have to admit at the moment you got me back and I guess a lot of old timers feel the same way.

Since I don't backup any game I still wish you all the best and hope that we meet when your new project is released.

What I can see now every game you worked on, was my game style just my friends/guilds didn't stay long enough with me, so if it has to be I will came as lone ranger.

Thanks for that, much appreciated. In terms of not backing us yet, no problem at all. Wait till we get further along or when it is released. It is your money and you have every right to wait as long as you wish. As someone who has played my games in the past, I hope you decide that you like what you see enough to join us at some point!

Originally posted by Torval

Sorry to hear your testing is delayed. I don't see it as that big of a deal personally. Delays happen.

I think criticism from delays and design changes are part of the double-edged sword developers have to face from crowd-funded community driven projects. We've heard a lot about how the players have to deal with games moving in directions they don't like, risks of funding a failure, or long release timelines, but we don't talk a lot about what the developers have to deal with. One thing privately funded development offers is much thicker insulation, intrusion, and scrutiny from public sources, sources that have no real understanding of software or game development.

Community driven and funded development has some rough edges. Hopefully the process will continue to mature so that both players and developers have a more stable framework to function under.

Agreed. It starts with making sure that potential Backers are fully informed about the risks of backing any crowd-funded project and keeping everyone informed as things move forward. We''re certainly doing more than most KS-backed games in terms of communication with our use of User Stories, dev <-> Backer interaction on the Forums (with no paywall), live and unscripted Q&As but we can and should do even better going forward.

Originally posted by Tamanous

Sympathy can come easily simply due to the industry. Delays are so common place that expecting a project on time almost raises more flags or else we wouldn't see the usual, "Delay launch! The game isn't ready!" posts all over the place.

If trying to be truthfully reflective of my real feelings I would describe the limitations of my full loyalty and interest as believing the following with regard to delays:

- Will the game still be released as promised without cutting corners?

- Can an accurate rescheduled date for beta and release be given and progression to match?

No worries currently though Mark! CUBE should keep me interested and it's development an interesting side to the main course (need them curves though! Can't wait for TDD styling textures too. I want to make tree houses! Oh and trees in the testing area). Waiting on that class info too.

1) Yes - No corners are being cut, far from it. Look at C.U.B.E. as an example of how we can add something really interesting to the mix earlier than expected without a major impact on production.

2) Yes - Once we get all the new team members up to speed, we'll sit down and come up with a new schedule. It's pointless to do that now because, well, 3 new people and then a 4th in September, mean that any forecasting we do today will probably be wrong. I'd rather wait a couple of months, pay a few more refunds as we have, rather than give out a date that might change if the new people don't work out.

C.U.B.E. will be a nice addition to our game and a nice distraction when we aren't testing other things. I expect that by the time we launch, the amount of blueprints that will be available for people to buy from crafters will be, well, staggering. Can't wait.

Hrimnir · July 2015

Much Love Mark. I am also a backer who was "affected" by the beta being pushed back. However, i really don't care. I've been waiting basically 7+ years for an MMO worth playing, a few extra months is no skin off my back.

Basically like other people said. Shit happens. This guy, whoever he is, basically screwed you guys over and now you have to pick up the pieces. Anybody who doesn't understand that these things are part of life and its how you get back up from it, can go fly a kite.

Grakulen · July 2015

I just want it to be a complete and polished game at release.

Take your time.

Wizardry · July 2015

Well i am not the kissy kissy type,i say things exactly as they are on my mind.Why,well obviously because i have a lot of passion for game design,i know what developers can and can't do.

I have ONLY one perception of these games now a days,they are simply after a double take on the cash grab.Once for the crowd funding and then again a cash shop that usually shows more effort than the games themselves.

I think i have received about 30 emails from SC and every single one of them are headlined with a new ship for sale.../sigh.I am not stupid,i watched Chris talk about his problems and kudos to him he actually went on video and showed us but what i see is a poor game engine and a bad way of doing things with his hull and item occlusions and falling through the ship.

It is one thing to ask for free money to get started but adding in cash shops really gets me perturbed.I want to see 100% of that time spent with gamer's money on the THE GAME,NOT the cash shop.

This doesn't mean i want this or any game to fail,i NEVER think that,i simply want to see these businesses run fair, treat the gamer with respect instead of trying to ripoff every naive gamer out there.

Anyhow peace out,i do hope the game survives and gets to a Triple A state.

BeansnBread · July 2015

Let the excuses commence.

Hrimnir · July 2015

Originally posted by Wizardry
Well i am not the kissy kissy type,i say things exactly as they are on my mind.Why,well obviously because i have a lot of passion for game design,i know what developers can and can't do.

I have ONLY one perception of these games now a days,they are simply after a double take on the cash grab.Once for the crowd funding and then again a cash shop that usually shows more effort than the games themselves.

I think i have received about 30 emails from SC and every single one of them are headlined with a new ship for sale.../sigh.I am not stupid,i watched Chris talk about his problems and kudos to him he actually went on video and showed us but what i see is a poor game engine and a bad way of doing things with his hull and item occlusions and falling through the ship.

It is one thing to ask for free money to get started but adding in cash shops really gets me perturbed.I want to see 100% of that time spent with gamer's money on the THE GAME,NOT the cash shop.

This doesn't mean i want this or any game to fail,i NEVER think that,i simply want to see these businesses run fair, treat the gamer with respect instead of trying to ripoff every naive gamer out there.

Anyhow peace out,i do hope the game survives and gets to a Triple A state.

So you basically came here to complain about star citizen, made no mention whatsoever of this game, made some vague reference to crowd funding, and then peaced out. Excellent contribution to the thread.

Nanfoodle · July 2015

Still not sold on this one even though I am a DAoC old school fan. I want to be though =-) I just keep reading and watching everything about this game even though Im upset there is no real PvE lol. Can we not even have a Darknessfall? Still waiting for a game to bring back what made DAoC so magical to me. Maybe I am chasing a high I will never find again?

Viper482 · July 2015

Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Thanks Tim! However, I am at fault. I'm the name on the top of the studio's masthead and I've been unable to convince enough senior programmers to join the studio. I can't and won't hide behind excuses. I always said I'd be front and center when the studio had to deliver bad news (and not send out a CM) and well, here I am just as I have been on MOP and other places.

I appreciate the kind words, praise and most of all, patience. Things are really moving along nicely. Slower than we would like but nicely. Hopefully we'll have some new nice and shiny tech to show off in the coming weeks as well as a couple of other fun updates.

Thanks again to you and MMORPG for the coverage!

I will wait 5 years to play it......but please don't take that long.

Parepin · July 2015

Warden sniping all the good senior programmers out there? Ha..

Alomar · July 2015

Backed it, support it, and support Mark Jacobs. Stop giving dem scrubs refunds back, why do we need to be "better" than all those other greedy shady business practicing developers (Star Citizen)! Just kidding, keep up the great work and let's hope the next designer who said yes to signing on doesn't bail for a larger payout.

Brenics · July 2015

Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Thanks Tim! However, I am at fault. I'm the name on the top of the studio's masthead and I've been unable to convince enough senior programmers to join the studio. I can't and won't hide behind excuses. I always said I'd be front and center when the studio had to deliver bad news (and not send out a CM) and well, here I am just as I have been on MOP and other places.

I appreciate the kind words, praise and most of all, patience. Things are really moving along nicely. Slower than we would like but nicely. Hopefully we'll have some new nice and shiny tech to show off in the coming weeks as well as a couple of other fun updates.

Thanks again to you and MMORPG for the coverage!

WOW now this is what I would expect from a great developer who is honest and forward with the gamers. I may have to start supporting you guys.

Thanks for putting some faith in this gamer that not all developers are just jerks.

DrunknShaman · July 2015

Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Thanks Tim! However, I am at fault. I'm the name on the top of the studio's masthead and I've been unable to convince enough senior programmers to join the studio. I can't and won't hide behind excuses. I always said I'd be front and center when the studio had to deliver bad news (and not send out a CM) and well, here I am just as I have been on MOP and other places.

I appreciate the kind words, praise and most of all, patience. Things are really moving along nicely. Slower than we would like but nicely. Hopefully we'll have some new nice and shiny tech to show off in the coming weeks as well as a couple of other fun updates.

Thanks again to you and MMORPG for the coverage!

Have faith young squires, Mark knows what he is doing, and CU will be an amazing game, no matter how long it takes.

I felt bad for asking for a refund, My reason was different I'm going OTR (Over the Road) truck driving again (it's been 18 years).

And I'm not sure if I will be able to play games OTR like I do now, So i dropped from Warrior forever 2.0 to basic builder, but 6 months from now I'll have a sweet laptop or my desktop in the truck and as long as i can get good Wi Fi at the truck stops better believe i'll be back at warrior 2.0 forever or more since my pay is going up.

I played DAoC for 6 years and I will never forget them, some of the best times ever.

And I owe Mark and a lot of other people from Mythic (R.I.P) thanks for there hard work and dedication to making DAoC and CU and every other game that has made so many of us happy, mad, sad, tired (to many all nighters back then).

So Thanks Mark, we love thy games you made in the past and I'm sure many will love CU in the future..I already do.

Lonzo · July 2015

Since the develoüment of good mmos has slowed down drastically anyways, you guys can and will take some more years anyways. Look at EQN, i bet right now daybreak is turning the whole game concept around and start from scratch, it will last ages. All the other big mmos in development are the same right now. They have no straight direction, dont know where to go. Even Blizzard gave up.

JamesGoblin · July 2015

Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Still not sold on this one even though I am a DAoC old school fan. I want to be though =-) I just keep reading and watching everything about this game even though Im upset there is no real PvE lol. Can we not even have a Darknessfall? Still waiting for a game to bring back what made DAoC so magical to me. Maybe I am chasing a high I will never find again?

You will have Darkness Falls, just it will be much better and alive.

MarkJacobs · July 2015

Originally posted by Hrimnir
Much Love Mark. I am also a backer who was "affected" by the beta being pushed back. However, i really don't care. I've been waiting basically 7+ years for an MMO worth playing, a few extra months is no skin off my back.

Basically like other people said. Shit happens. This guy, whoever he is, basically screwed you guys over and now you have to pick up the pieces. Anybody who doesn't understand that these things are part of life and its how you get back up from it, can go fly a kite.

Thanks! But we were late and I'm not going to try to sugarcoat things. I apologized and we're in the process of doing what we need to do to try to ensure that doesn't happen again. Nobody can guarantee a game will come out on time and neither can we. The difference is that when we are late we apologize and then try to make it up to people. The later is what separates us from most other developers.

I appreciate the support, as always.

MarkJacobs · July 2015

Originally posted by Grakulen
I just want it to be a complete and polished game at release.

Take your time.

Thank you and me too!

MarkJacobs · July 2015

Originally posted by Wizardry
Well i am not the kissy kissy type,i say things exactly as they are on my mind.Why,well obviously because i have a lot of passion for game design,i know what developers can and can't do.

I have ONLY one perception of these games now a days,they are simply after a double take on the cash grab.Once for the crowd funding and then again a cash shop that usually shows more effort than the games themselves.

I think i have received about 30 emails from SC and every single one of them are headlined with a new ship for sale.../sigh.I am not stupid,i watched Chris talk about his problems and kudos to him he actually went on video and showed us but what i see is a poor game engine and a bad way of doing things with his hull and item occlusions and falling through the ship.

It is one thing to ask for free money to get started but adding in cash shops really gets me perturbed.I want to see 100% of that time spent with gamer's money on the THE GAME,NOT the cash shop.

This doesn't mean i want this or any game to fail,i NEVER think that,i simply want to see these businesses run fair, treat the gamer with respect instead of trying to ripoff every naive gamer out there.

Anyhow peace out,i do hope the game survives and gets to a Triple A state.

Thank you. We will absolutely survive. Money isn't an issue which is why we haven't asked/begged for more, took/taking our time putting up swag, etc.

And I couldn't agree more with what you say about treating the gamers with respect. That's why I did a live Q&A, why I'm here, MOP, Forums, etc. Being late is one thing but being late and not be willing to own up to how, what, when and why, that's unacceptable in my book and why we are doing what we are doing.

MarkJacobs · July 2015

Originally posted by Viper482
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Thanks Tim! However, I am at fault. I'm the name on the top of the studio's masthead and I've been unable to convince enough senior programmers to join the studio. I can't and won't hide behind excuses. I always said I'd be front and center when the studio had to deliver bad news (and not send out a CM) and well, here I am just as I have been on MOP and other places.

I appreciate the kind words, praise and most of all, patience. Things are really moving along nicely. Slower than we would like but nicely. Hopefully we'll have some new nice and shiny tech to show off in the coming weeks as well as a couple of other fun updates.

Thanks again to you and MMORPG for the coverage!

I will wait 5 years to play it......but please don't take that long.

We won't. Beta was delayed but with the new hires (and we're still looking for more), things will start moving faster. Andrew's landing of the new terrain system will also speed things up. I'll also be talking about some other things that we are going to do in the coming days.

Lots more coming and not just concept art, presentations, etc.

MarkJacobs · July 2015

Originally posted by Alomar
Backed it, support it, and support Mark Jacobs. Stop giving dem scrubs refunds back, why do we need to be "better" than all those other greedy shady business practicing developers (Star Citizen)! Just kidding, keep up the great work and let's hope the next designer who said yes to signing on doesn't bail for a larger payout.

Yeah, that would suck. I'm still kind of surprised the way that shook out. Never happened to me before. Fortunately, we have a really good young team of programmers who get better and better with time and Andrew's mentorship.

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