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A Beta "review"
Torian
Member UncommonPosts: 5
http://forums.monkly-business.net/viewtopic.php?t=11199
Potus
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 183
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:54 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I laugh at games like Vanguard calling themselves "next generation" mmorpgs. There hasn't been a "next generation" mmorpg ever, since they all revolve around leveling treadmills and the endless pursuit of new loot until you eBay out of boredom. The real hillarity in this game is just how blatant the leveling treadmill/timesinks are.There's 3 Leveling treadmills in the game, and all of them are equal in lack of fun.
Combat
You'd think this is fun but it really isn't. They talked up a huge game about how Vanguard's combat involves more than just hitting Auto-Attack and hoping the monster runs out of Hitpoints before you do. You get to see a monsters attack ahead of time, and simply choose whatever button is flashing to deflect it. That's it, that's their huge "next generation" improvement to the boredom of playing a melee: waiting for icons to flash and then click on them hoping the server lag doesn't cause the spells to timeout.Solo'ing is non-existant. You can solo for hours and you won't come near the exp you get if you wait around for a group. Solo'ing is immensely boring, since every tactic involves spamming your direct damage spell while tanking. Deaths are harsh, you lose exp, you're naked, and you have to run back to your corpse. Usually you'll die on the way since monsters hit you from far away with their extendo arms of death. There's also this hillarious bug right now where the guards assist the monster its fighting and will kill you.
Tradeskills
I've only tried tradeskilling once, and was amazed at the time involvement. According to the forums, it takes just as long as combat leveling to level while tradeskilling. Apparently its like EQ2, you sit there and some bars go up and down and you have to mash flashing buttons until you "finish" a product. Apparently some guy did this for days and days and is level five and makes "Grade D table legs".
Harvesting takes for fucking ever. You have to group with other harvesters and you fight trees like you would a monster. Thats right, you need to get certain harvesting classes too, like "gleaners" and "refiners" in your group, and you sit around wacking some tree until the tree dies and then you get some loot. You then have to rest, since you get "tired" while wacking trees all day.
Want to solo while harvesting? Oh no you can't, because solo'ing doesn't exist at all in this game, if you solo it will A) take forever
not get you anything meaningful C) you'll fail alot.
Parley..or the worst thing ever invented and is made fun of constantly on the beta forums
This is the best new "feature" of this great "next generation mmorpg". You have to parley with the npcs to get your quests. This is yet another ridiculous time sink. Thats right, when you want to talk to a npc about a quest, it opens a parley window where you fight the npc like a monster using arguments. You have the "dirty joke" spell, which lowers his liking of you, so then you have to reply with a "nice compliment" which then makes him like you more but then you have to keep the conversation interesting so you attack using a "interesting story"...I'm not making this shit up, you basically hammer keys until the conversation bar reaches the end(without other bars getting too low, its exactly like EQ2's crafting system) and you win the "parley".
Here's what is so great about it. EVERY SINGLE NPC makes you parley with him to get quest info. What is funny about it is that 95% of them have no quests or interesting info to give you, so you go from npc to npc parleying, mashing keys, until you "win" the "encounter" and you get nothing from it.
Overall
This game just fucking blows. There's nothing positive I can say about it, it is that bad. I've beta'ed alot of video games and this one is fundamentally fucked. I don't think I could come up with a worse video game if I tried. I'm amazed the login screen doesn't have some sort of time sink or if I want to customize my UI I don't have to parley it with "witty jokes". LONG LIVE EVERQUEST BEFORE LUCLIN!!
Comments
this is why i wana beta test this game to see if it has any bs things if it does then oh well back to runescape or just work and get a life dunno...
ouch
xtremly lzy
Will all respect, you seem like the the biggest fan boy ever who dosent like the thought of change.Ending your post with "LONG LIVE EVERQUEST BEFORE LUCLIN!!" proves my point. You also seem like a person who would rather solo a game then do it with a group. I think the whole point of the this game is to be a group fest. And next time you make a post dont use quotations every other word. It hurts the eyes
.
+1
Oh NOESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!
sorry but all credibility this guy had went out the window when he said this....
i have beta tested alot of games myself and have witness some awful stuff....im not saying any of this stuff isn't true, hell it could be all true but to say " I don't think I could come up with a worse video game if I tried" really makes me wonder.
sir if you have indeed beta's alot of games those examples you made are not even close to the worst i have seen. and besides most of the stuff this guy is complaining about is the fact that he cant solo and it is a time sink..... cry me a freaking river!
i am glad he posted this though....will all the positive feedback we have gotten from this game i guess it is good to see 1 or 2 peoples negative opinions about.
although, like i said....he stating its the worst game ever made (in a nutshell) i find that sort of odd that so many people praise this game, yet one dood comes in here and says "I don't think I could come up with a worse video game if I tried."
strange indeed....
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
perhaps I used a quote because it is one?!?
This isnt by me but by another guy...
This 'review' has actually made me want to play Vanguard, I had no intention of playing it before. But I get to hammer things so I can talk to people?
HELL YES.
---------------------------------------
No Userbar here, sorry to disappoint.
Perhaps you need to post a link to where this is found to make yourself sound at all credible or perhaps people (ie: me) will see you as a troll who just came to these boards to post this "quote"... perhaps
The reason i say this is because i tried about 20 different searches on google to locate this article including trying this guys username and also tried quoting different part of the post. I'm not saying that its not real for sure, im just saying it looks a little strange if you don't even post a link...
Also the post itself is funny as it is contradictory in its very nature.... "LONG LIVE EQ" and before it... /cry i can't solo and everything takes long...
Besides the NDA prohibits people from even mentioning they are in beta so im not sure who'd be stupid enough to post a "review"...
Look I can do it too:
Posted by Potus
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 183
Vanguard is awesome, i've been playing beta for a while and think its the best game ever...
~Dunadurium
"Silly rabbit, WoW's for kids"
************************
Yes you are correct! I should have added a source...
here we go: http://forums.monkly-business.net/viewtopic.php?t=11199
Ok thanks, its still not the source but its good enough i guess...
Ill just quote "BillgoBaginss" from that page as it sums up my views pretty good:
Posted by billgobaginss
Well what i dont get is alota things he mentiosn are balance issues or bugs. Thats the entire POINT of beta tho to balance and fix shit.
As for parleying, last i heard ppl with quest info would have a wow-like quest msg over em so i dont get how its any different than the current systems in games and Sena, your 100% right. The older systems were just silly lol.
About the corpse runs i think the idea is that ppl will have multiple sets of gear on there pack mules so if u lose ur corpse u get ur 2nd set out to go hunt in. If u cant hunt in solo, well u prob shouldnt venture there solo then should ya hehe.
The rest of hwat he mentions seems to be more of a "ive played mmos for years and amdtired of em" issue. YA its just pixels it means nothing. It requires alota time. Its prob a good idea if he just leaves the genre cause he just simply dislikes everythign about it.
I think this guy falls into 1 of 2 catagories honeslty.
1) Guy who wanted into beta cause they wanted to play the game b4 other ppl. Sorry beta is where u test and fix things. Ya shit dont work sometimes and ya big changse happen. If ya want a finishd game wait for release.
2) Typical spoiled player from the 2nd gen mmos that made almost EVERYTHING so much easier.
The funy part is he says "long live eq b4 luclin" and wtf is he kidding, back then eq was a mega treadmill. lol.
Exactly
(except only a few quests will have the marker above their heads, the rest you'll have to find like is mentioned..which i don't mind at all)
~Dunadurium
"Silly rabbit, WoW's for kids"
************************
Ok, sorry, just one more that i think gives another good view. This is also from that page:
"Having played as a necro in EQ1 I've seen this idiots rants on the necro forums. He's the quintesential ADHD no attention span should be playing CS and 'pnzering' people and complaining the whole time.
Being a latecomer to EQ he wasn't around during the magic that was the original and possibly Kunark release, before things got much easier. If you would have read the FAQ you would have gotten an idea what the game is supposed to be like ie penalty for death, corpse runs, no insta travel. And being that it's an MMORPG god forbid it rewards soloing!! Hence why Potus was a necro. He could solo and then brag about it on the forums where people actually read his drivel and complimented on how well he played a grouping game solo.
But that's a rant for another time and my point being if you want an idea of where Potus is coming from, read some of his crap posted on old necro forums. Then you'll realize what tripe this really is.
Once again, it's not a solo game moron, hence why things are geared towards groups! Go buy Oblivion when that comes out or some other offline RPG. Why in the hell would you want to play a massive MULTIPLAYER role playing game solo? Tired of leveling at a normal pace and having a game tailored to one person?
Sorry, did it again.
DrMarvin"
"Silly rabbit, WoW's for kids"
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that doesn't make it reliable, heres a quote from that same thread by their site admin.....
and here is another post from that same thread where someone "claims" they know this guy that made this NDA breach...
lol nice post, and i agree this game isn't being made for soloability or to be able to max your character out in 2 months ala wow. until i actually get to see vanguard for myself i am going to assume that this Potus guy is just some douchebag that thinks vanguard should be another easy mode wow type game.
edit: this time you beat me dunadurium
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
People fail to realize that the game is still on the second beta of a projected four beta development cycle.
Remmenber when WoW was in beta? when all the dungeons looked the same? when druid could fly? when mages could turn invisible? did any of that made it to release?
Expect massive changes as the devs continue their work, as such making comments like "omg this sucks" is not very productive.
All ur Mountain Dew is belong to me.
While I disagree much with the OP's post as many of the things he cited as a weakness I find to be a good points. But what I find disturbing is the overall feeling of the game being poor. Sometimes you just know when a game works or dosen't and it sounds like he is saying right now things don't click or mesh well for him. At least for this post I will give him the benefit of the doubt even though I am quite skeptical about his post, motivations and reasoning.
Assuming the post is all true the question is when do you become worried about a game. The devs have said that they just have revamped crafting and diplomacy and possibly harvesting. Combat is being tweaked from what we have been told and for all we know goiing thru major changes.
I have seen a lot more games fail than succeed. I really want Vanguard to be a great game. But I would not start worrying until beta 3. By the start of beta 3 we should expect the game to be fairly polished and the systems being used set. Thats when normally a lot more people start getting invited and when opinions often get formed and word of mouth starts spreading. At the start of beta 3 we should expect the devs to have the combat, crafting, harvesting and diplomat systems in place and decided upon with any future adjustments just being minor tweaks. We should expect the engine to be more optiomized and the game to be playable on the average players computer.
I would expect that they will take their time in beta 2 and make sure everything works and is ready to go for beta 3. By the time we reach beta 3 and with all the new people entering the game it would benefit them to have all systems in place so they can truly test the game under the load of a full server. Seeoing then what is fun and what needs tweaking.
If we still see these problems in beta 3 I will be worried. Very worried. But they have a plan, a vision and experience. Sigil is not afraid to try different things and see what works and what doesn't. Unlike most devs they will change things that don't work. My concern is do they have the time. They are trying to do so much with their combat system, with diplomacy and crafting. Making it all work smoothly, and be fun is a lot to ask.
I love the design of the game. I hope it is a great game. But most games fail to live up to their promise. I have no idea if the OP's post is true or not. Most likely some of it is. Sigil is trying to do a lot. This is not a cookie cutter game which is one of the reasons I like it but also one of the reasons I am worried. Do they have the time to do everything they are trying to do and make it work well?
We should all find out soon what the state of the game is soon. If the OP's post is correct we probably won't see beta 3 until at least May. Once beta 3 starts and more people come into the game word will get out fast of what people think. I still have faith in Sigil no matter what state the game is in. Unlike most games they have a vision for their game and its a vision I truly admire. I just hope they take their time and do it right. They have said time and time again we will release the game when its ready not before. I still have great faith in Sigil. Much more than any other compnay or game in currently in development.
That highlight just goes to show how honest and upfront Sigil really is. They acknowledge that the game is not fitting perfect right now but also comfort us by assuring that they will have it done right by the end. I also agree with that part in that i belive they have the right basic concepts and ideas, they just need to tweak the implementation and get it worked out right. Which, like he states, is just a matter of time.
Im sure they are well aware of ALL the issues that exist and indeed thats what beta is for, to get the game playing smooth...In this respect, im confident because as we all know, most of Sigil plays their beta as much if not more than the Beta tester.
~Dunadurium
"Silly rabbit, WoW's for kids"
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Dunadurium, I agree. The devs honesty and interaction with the community is one of the many reasons I have so much faith in the game. I hope it works out and is fun. But I can't help but worry maybe they are trying to do to much in such a short period of time.
Taliskar's post you quoted from the archtype system thread was very exciting. I know many people were concerned the classes would have no diversity like EQ2. Brad has addressed this concern a few other times and I hope they make classes fun and different. One of the great things about the Vanguard devs is they appear to look at every feature from every perspective possible. They appear to be great planners and I am sure they will not make the same mistakes as SOE in regards to classes. I just hope they have the patience to take the time to do everything right. There is so much to do. But like I said before I don't see any other game in development that anyone can believe in more than Vanguard. While all games seem to dissapoint to a certain extent there is nothing else that looks near as good or is as likely to be as good as Vanguard at least to me.
i agree, there really isn't anything els thats coming any time soon that looks to be a sure winner like vanguard. sure there are games with great potential....i think AOC has a good chance to be something great and probably will be, but its still to early in development to tell.
and then there are games that have great potential but I'm just not convinced they call pull it off (i.e Dnl,Df,HJ), personally i would love to play a game like Df......but who knows if it will ever get released, Dnl? need i say anything?, HJ? this game seems to have alot of kool features and great potential, but hasn't it been in development like 6 years? and it is still in alpha? i just don't know...
i think it is common sense these guys at sigil have the experience to know what they can and cant implement(for the most part).....and from what they claim will be in at launch and post launch....there is absolutely no doubt in my mind this will be a great game when it goes live, IMHO..
p.s i know I'm a freaking fanboi....so sue me!
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
I'd say over 50% of my Gameplay adventuring is solo gameplay. I like the Option of grouping, without it being a requirement, especially for skillfarming. If I can't log in, and casually collect the stuff I need for skills, while keeping to myself, I'd say that's a serious flaw. If however it was something outrageous that needed farmed, like for instance if I needed "Dragons Teeth" for some obscure skill, naturally it would make sense that most players would need a help gathering that type of ingredient. Needing a group to chop wood seems a little extreme.
06.02.27
3rd generation "We usually use the word generation more like an 'era'" 1.4.1
pre mmorpg (text pen and paper browser [EGA 640x350x16 color] vs D&D [costumes optional] vs Disco's trying to score in the 80s... what is a 14 baud modem?)
$0.25 fps in arcades vs consouls vs M59 ('96) XGA 1024x768x256 color in the early 90s... what is sega, a gameboy or a trs-80 ?
SISA (Sony Interactive Studios in America) gets wise and uses Smedley to poach McQuaid who brings in Clover... what is MMORPG industry ?
first gen MMORPG: UO ('97,) Lineage ('98,) EQ & AC ('99.)... what are W95/98, 200MHz cpu, 16 & 32MB sdram, 2D/3D seperate gpu and 34 vs 56k dial-up modems (2KB up/down)
second gen: DAoC (2001,) AC2 ('02,) L2 ('03,) WoW & EQ2 ('04.)... what are Wxp, LCD, 1GHz cpu, R9700/R9800 DX9-128MB gpu, broadband (125KB up/down)
third gen: Sun ('05,) Vanguard:Saga of Heroes & Huxley ('06,)... W64 (vista,) UXGA 1600x1200x32bit color, 50GB/s bandwidth 10Gtexel&pixel fillrate 512MB gddr3/4 DX10 gpu, dual-core 3GHz cpu 2MB cache, broadband (4GB/s)
near future: holographic displays, *S games (Sight, Sound, Smell sensation,) QSXGA (2580x2048 6 Mpixel display 4ms-250Hz LCD,) Internet2 (+20GB/s.)
Sigil (Jan. 2002) celebrates 4th year birthday party .
UE3 for next generation consoles (ps3, xbox360) and DX9, 10 equiped PCs, brings physics, realism and 3D sound (5.1 surround & Dolby Digital; ) environments containing 5k total (1k visible) renderable objects, peaking 500k to 1.5Million rendered triangles!
Atari, RealTimeWorld's All Points Bulletin, Disney/ Buena Visita Games' Turok, Gearbox's Brother in Arms 3, Hi-Rez Studios (mmog) in development (still under nda,) Sony (SCEI) ps3
UE2x is being used in V:SoH.
preview1
preview2
preview3
13MB trailer
soloability
interview
.....
"Phase 0 : (July - Sept '05) work out issues between Sigil and Microsoft -- how do we get the code up there, testing issues, patching, etc. Basic infrastructure stuff.
Then stability -- get the code at least stable enough that beta testers will not be overly frustrated. Start with a small portion of the world and slowly turn additional regions on over time.
Phase 1: (Oct - Dec '05) start testing gameplay. Begin with the basics, then move on to the systems that make Vanguard more unique.
Also study how both world size and the world being seamless affects the game. Preferably have at least one full continent online for people to explore and play in.
Phase 2: (Dec '05- ongoing) continue testing, but with a lot more people. Focus on the mid to higher level game, as well as continue on with crafting, diplomacy, and the other more Vanguard-specific systems.
Preferably have all or most of the world online for people to explore and play in.
Phase 3: Fill up a server. Determine the target number of people in a single shard, preferably arriving with a number in between over populated and too sparsely populated.
Continue to monitor how fast people are advancing, plus everything else that was in phase 1 and 2. This probably should be the longest phase.
Test even more high level areas, but probably not the highest level areas, unless with specific, hand chosen focus groups.
Phase 4: The shortest phase. Bring in a LOT of people (I think EQ had 25,000+). Have multiple shards online and make sure there are no issues there.
Test billing, login, etc. Do everything we can to make sure nothing catastrophic happens when we turn on the game for real.
Perhaps open some of the high end content briefly, but still being careful to keep mystery in the game." A. Mithara 4.9
V:SoH FAQ
bhug, that was an excelent post. Pure facty goodness.
~Dunadurium
"Silly rabbit, WoW's for kids"
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Amazing Post!!! there is some very nice stuff in there
there should be a few points in there
Unless that beta player was deaf, dumb, and blind he should have known going in that solo play isnt a focus of the devs.
Im not really a fan of mmorpgs where I can't solo 50% of the time but I wouldnt be upset at Vanguard about it. I know going in I'll need to adjust to mostly group encounters
My only concern is not being able to solo while gathering resources. That part has me a bit worried. But it is still in beta.
let's stop the personal insults. Not liking a game and talking about is fine. Resorting to personal attacks with those of an opposing opinion than yours is not.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
I saw this the other day on the FOH site. I think if you are going to make a game that appeals to a specific type of gamer then obviously other gamers will think that your games sux just like the OP. Personally the concept of WOW certainly attracts a lot of players but I'm tired of being shoved in a big fishbowl with the MMORPG that trys to please everyone. Certain types of people will not like Vanguard and I think thats OK.
I loved EQI as much as the next guy but to say that Vanguard is rotten because it is full of timesinks and then to say LONG LIVE EVERQUEST BEFORE LUCLIN makes me really wonder about his validity. EQI had spawns that popped on week long cycles and I remember people holding spots and staying up camping (ie just sitting there) for three or four days with no sleep to get a stupid piece of gear. That was not fun unless you had friends and beer with you and didn't have to work for that week. Anyway point being is that I and everyone I know and everybody in most of these forums have used the words timesink or terms like chasing the golden carrot, treadmill etc for most MMORPGs games. Depending on how much you are into the game depends on if you view the quest or mission or whatever as a timesink.