Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Do we really need NPCs ?

24

Comments

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    mgilbrtsn said:
    In theory, it sounds good.  But it often breaks down.  What if there aren't enough people and it looks empty... people stop playing because it's barren.....  or  nobody wants to be a crafter so prices are way too high ....... or et al.  Many issues have a cascading effect when the population doesn't support the concept.  
    That nobody want to be a crafter so the prices get too high tend to fix itself, when people realize you can make loads of cash crafting more people will and prices will go down.

    But it do make the MMO cities look even more empty then they usually already feel. Usually the devs throw in some token npcs but you never see a really busy street at rushhour in a MMO. They tend to think that 100 npcs in a large city is enough even though a city of it's size must have 20 000 people living there and at least 10% should be outside in the afternoon. Now, you might have 100 players there as well so taking away those people is pretty stupid, they already feel empty and lifeless in most games and this would make things worse.

    For even considering getting rid of the npcs you need to have an engine that allows hundreds of players in the same zone. Most MMOs can't handle that.

    Secondly you need to either let the players play the less heroic role of ordinary people or have a good reason why everyone is an adventurer. And neither is particularly easy, you might get people to play smiths and store owners, with good mechanics you can even have them playing farmers but there are plenty of roles in a fantasy games that really is hard to get players for. Servants for example.

    The reason that only heroes exist could be that the main hub of the game is a fortress in a warzone and all regular people have been sent away to save food and water or that the stupid heroes jumped through a portal to a place were no humans (or other playable race) live into a hostile enviroment were you have to live on what you can find.

    It is way easier in a zombie game than a fantasy game though, there it makes sense that few ordinary people are around even if the players once were average joes and jills.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,004
    I've actually stopped during questing to hear NPC's talking about what was going on in an area.  They can provide valid information in an immersive way.  They should make greater use of NPC's. 

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • SomethingUnusualSomethingUnusual Member UncommonPosts: 546
    kemono55 said:

    But I don't think that NPCs provide much merit to invoking feelings in players, contribute much story at all.
    So great, I rescued the queen from an assassination attempt and was promoted to lunar knight of the queensguard.
    Why is no one talking about this afterwards, its because its the same thing happening every time to everyone.

    This is a subject I think Elder Scrolls Online did right, a few others as well... After completing missions, the NPC's really do change their opinions and how they view you other than just a few pieces of flavor text. Save the NPC? Don't save the NPC? Something different will happen. 

    It's unfortunate that programs are merely a set of instructions. I would love to see a game made possible to have human-like action and reaction globally. If I kill the king, the king is dead, people hate me, and people love me for it. With AI being merely a set of instructions, this will sadly not see the light of day for a very long time to come. Yet alone the amount of time and resources it would take to create such a monstrosity. 
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    I've actually stopped during questing to hear NPC's talking about what was going on in an area.  They can provide valid information in an immersive way.  They should make greater use of NPC's. 
    Agreed, it is the standing still type of npcs who doesn't say anything besides possibly give you a kill X quest that sucks. Far from all games have npcs that could have been taken from Diablo (1), but they could put more work into making them feel like actual people instead of a vending machine.
  • AnirethAnireth Member UncommonPosts: 940
    laserit said:
    I've always thought you could remove NPCs and replace them with a quest log or some sort and jsut do quests in the log....As you finish them an achievement would pop up and you'd be done with that quest.....One of my biggest problems with so many quests nowadays is I spend more time running back and forth to NPCs than I do playing.
    The thing is, there is a lot more to NPC's than just quest giver's. It would be really cool if every baker, beggar and candlestick maker were real player characters, but I just don't believe that will ever happen.
    It already happened, in UO and other sandbox games. It's just a matter of making those jobs worthwhile. I played a carpenter for two years on a private UO server. There where several problems with that job:

    1. It was not possible to craft all the furniture that was available in the game. Some things like a loom or so could not be crafted through the skill.
    2. This lead to GMs placing those things..and while they were at it, they simply placed *all* the furniture, whether a player could create it or not
    3. Unlike weapons and armor, furniture did not break. And unlike bandages (tailor) or potions, they are not one-use only. So the demand was rather limited.

    Despite this issues, it was fun and i became quite famous for being one of the few carpenters. Not famous like a badass fighter who can take down a whole guild on his own, but for such a mundane job and with the difficulties described above that some of the other jobs like tailors or especially smiths did not have..

    So it's certainly possible, it just has to be designed from the ground up for this.

    The thing was also that you could easily adjust how much time you spent on what, because you were flexible. You could still fight, you could try out all jobs, but mastering would take years, and some even synergized. You need more strength to wear plate armor, and you need wood for your carpenting? Woodcutting gives you both. Or you could first create a simple chest (wood = carpenting, metal = smithing) and then add a lock (tinkering).

    I fear though a modern day MMO that even tries to emulate that would mean you first choose between "adventures" and "crafter", and then you can choose either fighter/wizard or smith/tailor/carpenter, and the only interaction would be via the auction house. Or it's done like in Neverwinter, where crafting is done in the background and the major limitation is money, so there *will* be people that are proficent in all jobs at the end ob launch week latest.

    Regarding questing and market etc, there is no real difference between having to click a NPC to clicking a black board, and the auction house is often enough reachable via keyboard shortcut or menu button anyway. Either get living NPCs( at least Skyrim level, though thats still pretty low-fi) or get rid of stuff like that altogether. Heck, placing a giant wooden board on the central square where the items being offered are depicted would at least move the AH into the visually displayed game world. With that, you could even keep the NPC. Talk to him, you click "sell" or whatever, and the item appears on the board (or even better, on the counter nearby)

    I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
    And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
    Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
    And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore

  • DzoneDzone Member UncommonPosts: 371
    I hate how modern mmo's npc's have everything for sell instantly. Back in 2003 with ffxi, vendors only had generic stuff and ton's of stuff missing from there wares. Some shops were even limited on how many items they had for stock, like those crafting vendors. Then there were regional vendows which would only apear in the city that had control over the region that week.


    Lot of the best gear came from NM's out in the open world as really rare drops. All your spells in that game wasn't learned automatically. Some npc's sold a few, but most of the spells either came from bcnm's ( which were group instances you couldn't just spam), mobs, or purchase from the auction house.


    There was even a bazaar system in ffxi where players would set there characters up to sell stuff and go afk for the night.


    I really hate how modern mmo's everything you need can be goten from npc vendors for really cheap and unlimited.


    I've been playing ff14 for 2 years now and have literally never bought anything from the auction house. Even when HW came out everything i needed just came from an npc vendor in the new ishguard city. Plus the main story quest's geared you up as well.
  • DzoneDzone Member UncommonPosts: 371
    edited August 2015
    How come npc's can't be like they were in skyrim? In that game npc's  literally walked around the city and stop ocaitionally and talk to each other.In that one town npc's would even randomly chase creminals and fight with them. You could follow npc's from there shop to there home at night and watch them disapear into there house. You could then skneak into there house and watch um sleep or steal from um.

    Most mmo's i've played npc's were always in one spot and just stood there the whole time.

    To me skyrim was a much more alive/breathing world than an mmo i've ever played.
  • tupodawg999tupodawg999 Member UncommonPosts: 724
    One minimal use for NPCs even in the context of a player economy could be to provide a fail-safe service.

    For example in EQ originally a fighter character couldn't bind anywhere (for respawn) so you needed to pay another player to bind you and if there wasn't one you were stuck or risked a corpse run from another zone. Later they added NPC binders but that killed part of of the market aspects of the game - the NPC binders effectively undercut the player binders.

    Instead they could have added the NPC binders but made them charge a lot of money so they'd be available in an emergency but players could still make money offering that service.



  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Dzone said:
    How come npc's can't be like they were in skyrim? In that game npc's  literally walked around the city and stop ocaitionally and talk to each other.In that one town npc's would even randomly chase creminals and fight with them. You could follow npc's from there shop to there home at night and watch them disapear into there house. You could then skneak into there house and watch um sleep or steal from um.

    Most mmo's i've played npc's were always in one spot and just stood there the whole time.

    To me skyrim was a much more alive/breathing world than an mmo i've ever played.
    Skyrims npcs were nothing compared to Morrowinds (older Elder scrolls game). I think it had the best npc AI in any computer game. 

    Tes games have made a few records, Daggerfall is still the largest RPG game ever made.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,004
    Anireth said:
    laserit said:
    I've always thought you could remove NPCs and replace them with a quest log or some sort and jsut do quests in the log....As you finish them an achievement would pop up and you'd be done with that quest.....One of my biggest problems with so many quests nowadays is I spend more time running back and forth to NPCs than I do playing.
    The thing is, there is a lot more to NPC's than just quest giver's. It would be really cool if every baker, beggar and candlestick maker were real player characters, but I just don't believe that will ever happen.
    It already happened, in UO and other sandbox games. It's just a matter of making those jobs worthwhile. I played a carpenter for two years on a private UO server. There where several problems with that job:

    1. It was not possible to craft all the furniture that was available in the game. Some things like a loom or so could not be crafted through the skill.
    2. This lead to GMs placing those things..and while they were at it, they simply placed *all* the furniture, whether a player could create it or not
    3. Unlike weapons and armor, furniture did not break. And unlike bandages (tailor) or potions, they are not one-use only. So the demand was rather limited.

    Despite this issues, it was fun and i became quite famous for being one of the few carpenters. Not famous like a badass fighter who can take down a whole guild on his own, but for such a mundane job and with the difficulties described above that some of the other jobs like tailors or especially smiths did not have..

    So it's certainly possible, it just has to be designed from the ground up for this.

    The thing was also that you could easily adjust how much time you spent on what, because you were flexible. You could still fight, you could try out all jobs, but mastering would take years, and some even synergized. You need more strength to wear plate armor, and you need wood for your carpenting? Woodcutting gives you both. Or you could first create a simple chest (wood = carpenting, metal = smithing) and then add a lock (tinkering).

    I fear though a modern day MMO that even tries to emulate that would mean you first choose between "adventures" and "crafter", and then you can choose either fighter/wizard or smith/tailor/carpenter, and the only interaction would be via the auction house. Or it's done like in Neverwinter, where crafting is done in the background and the major limitation is money, so there *will* be people that are proficent in all jobs at the end ob launch week latest.

    Regarding questing and market etc, there is no real difference between having to click a NPC to clicking a black board, and the auction house is often enough reachable via keyboard shortcut or menu button anyway. Either get living NPCs( at least Skyrim level, though thats still pretty low-fi) or get rid of stuff like that altogether. Heck, placing a giant wooden board on the central square where the items being offered are depicted would at least move the AH into the visually displayed game world. With that, you could even keep the NPC. Talk to him, you click "sell" or whatever, and the item appears on the board (or even better, on the counter nearby)
    SWG had some great crafters.  I would fly to a certain planet, then to a certain player city, then to a certain house with a certain vendor, where I would buy goods that were the finest in the universe and the prices were decent. 

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,722
    kemono55 said:

    Yes I agree, NPCs are very good at what they do, they provide lore information, services distribute quests, and can service multiple people at that a time. In fact they are so effective at what they do, they eliminate the need for players to interact with other players.
    But I can't believe the human aspect of interact with them, the "lore npc" could just as well be a book in my inventory in most case.
    ESO is full of lore books, yet NPCs give a lot of information not found in those books too. Why replace one with the other when both work very well together?

    I think the lack of player interaction has nothing to do with NPCs. People tend to be immature and trollish on the internet so playing solo, with real life friends, or with a very small and tight guild is the only way to effectively have decent player interaction.




  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Member RarePosts: 1,985
    A lore book doesn't have the ability to look attractive and possibly flirt with players, nor does it have the ability to model cool high-level gear to inspire players to acquire or craft this gear.
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,514


    I think the lack of player interaction has nothing to do with NPCs.
    I tend to see it this way.  Though, I do think some games go way too far with the quest NPCs, but that's a games system issue rather than an NPC issue.

    Which is essentially the thing about player interaction... the game needs to be built to bring a focus or a purpose to interaction.  If people can just solo through everything doing NPC quests and buying everything from NPC merchants, then they will.  But, again, this really has nothing to do with the NPCs being there, this is an issue with the developers using them improperly.

    If the only way to get quality gear is through player crafters, for instance, then people will naturally interact for goods.  If all dungeons require a legitimate group, then people will communicate and seek out others for groups, etc.

    What it really comes down to, isn't the fact that NPCs are around, but the fact that players simply don't have the tools/abilities available to do those things in most games.

    Even if the players could literally do anything and everything, I'd still want to have some NPCs around for flavor.  There are never enough players at all hours to replace NPC presence.  Most players are going to flock towards combat-based lifestyles, so it's nice to have various NPCs pretending to do the things most players won't, just for a livelier atmosphere.  The NPCs don't need to affect player interaction at all, in many cases, so I don't really see the merit of the removal of NPCs.

    But, yeah, NPCs that just stand in one place and never do anything but hold the big "quest here" sign over their head are kind of wasteful.
  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035
    DMKano said:
    Trove proves that you don't need quests, nor quest NPCs period to have a fun game. You don't even need any more lore than a few sentences.

    So no you don't need NPCs.

    Hrm, that's never been on my radar, but I should have a look.

    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • Moxom914Moxom914 Member RarePosts: 731
    kemono55 said:
    I get that it is a convenient way of filling up an empty world.
    But I think the deception of the wold feeling "alive" is completely lost at this generation of mmos.
    If the server is empty, you still feel "alone" no matter how many npcs are put inn. Its just a matter of perception being lost over time.

    I don't understand the question "why would you want to remove them in the first place?" ?
    Why would you have them there.. ? Shouldn't the world be filled with players already, it is a massive multiplayer game right, insinuating that is something much grander than a multiplayer game.
    If you need to interact with the games ruleset in anyway, can't that just be changed to an interface, or an object.

    I'm not saying that every other player should drop their sword and pick up a hoe instead.
    And obviously, mobs leaves for more interesting combat.
    But the games are filled up with all these lifeless npcs, and all they really do is draw away from the mmo aspect and place it closer to a single player experience.
    as someone has already said, no one is gonna drop their weapons and stand at the in to be an innkeeper. no one wants to just be a chef and wait for people to come along to buy food. the idea is nice but its really not something that can be done successfully. mmo's can survive with a low population. a game like you describe cant. in fact it would have to not only sustain a large population, it would have to do it 24/7. if not, it would effect gameplay. as nice as the idea is, its just not possible. 
  • AlamonzoroAlamonzoro Member UncommonPosts: 120
    No,but their useful.






  • AlamonzoroAlamonzoro Member UncommonPosts: 120
    also NPC are also enemies two.






  • kemono55kemono55 Member UncommonPosts: 124
    ... the idea is nice but its really not something that can be done successfully. mmo's can survive with a low population. a game like you describe cant. in fact it would have to not only sustain a large population, it would have to do it 24/7. if not, it would effect gameplay. as nice as the idea is, its just not possible. 
    But it already have been done successfully, haven't it?
    Reign of Kings, ARK, Trove, Life is feudal.
  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Dzone said:
    I hate how modern mmo's npc's have everything for sell instantly...

    I really hate how modern mmo's everything you need can be goten from npc vendors for really cheap and unlimited.
    NPCs don't sell everything.  Maybe they sell "everything you need" (with the understanding that your character doesn't actually need anything.)

    Seems very strange to claim NPCs sell everything, when almost nothing is actually purchased from them.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • AzAsheronAzAsheron Member UncommonPosts: 12
    ofcourse we need npc's in an mmo for the many obvious reasons stated above, npc's done right can bring much better immersion to a game, having them actually live lives and have interesting conversations and having them react to pc's reactions is a great thing
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Loke666 said:
    Dzone said:
    How come npc's can't be like they were in skyrim? In that game npc's  literally walked around the city and stop ocaitionally and talk to each other.In that one town npc's would even randomly chase creminals and fight with them. You could follow npc's from there shop to there home at night and watch them disapear into there house. You could then skneak into there house and watch um sleep or steal from um.

    Most mmo's i've played npc's were always in one spot and just stood there the whole time.

    To me skyrim was a much more alive/breathing world than an mmo i've ever played.
    Skyrims npcs were nothing compared to Morrowinds (older Elder scrolls game). I think it had the best npc AI in any computer game. 

    Tes games have made a few records, Daggerfall is still the largest RPG game ever made.
    The only thing IMO that made Morrowinds NPCs good was the text nature of dialogue.. As they could refer to you by name... They didn't have the schedules like Oblivion or Skyrim.  Which is what that poster was referring to.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Axehilt said:
    Dzone said:
    I hate how modern mmo's npc's have everything for sell instantly...
    I really hate how modern mmo's everything you need can be goten from npc vendors for really cheap and unlimited.
    NPCs don't sell everything.  Maybe they sell "everything you need" (with the understanding that your character doesn't actually need anything.)
    Seems very strange to claim NPCs sell everything, when almost nothing is actually purchased from them.
    There a few games where they sell everything of certain types like armors in Guildwars but generally they only sell trash gear that might possibly be worth using the first 20 minutes you play.

    But I am not certain what games Dzone play either, useful stuff in all games I played the last 7 years have been either drops or crafted gear.

    NPC vendors are usually something that might sell certain consumables (for crafting and stuff like salvage kits) but their main point in MMOs tend to be buying your vendor trash. In single player games they sometimes have something useful though.
  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,527
    Yes, we DEFINITELY need NPCs.  They tried the whole no npcs thing in Asheron's Call 2 and it went over a like a ton of bricks.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,771
    kemono55 said:
    Do we really need NPCs ?

    I get that they serve to bridge the players with the ruleset of the world.
    But do they have any other purpose besides that, which cannot be filled by a player?

    And I understand that any living world needs its fauna.

    But when you have six thousand players in your game, most of them leveling up craft skill and all of them wanting to sell something,
    you decide that your game needs an npc vendor.... why...?
    The quest hub npc, couldn't they just be replaced by rocks, with an inscription telling people to follow the road until they see the next rock.

    Do we need this one size fits all storyline for your hero character, served to you (or forced upon you) by NPCs.
    Should not players be the ones that's telling the story of the game, of the living world.


    I think in the past few years, the only interaction I've really had in mmorpgs is with npcs.
    Do I need a better weapon, I go and find the auction house npc.
    Sell my junk loot (which could just have been dropped as money in the first place), I need the vendor npc.
    Learn a new skill, choose a new profession, a subclass, change my hairstyle.....a npc.
    Just playing the game itself, it seems I'm bound to run around to these quest npcs.
    I join a guild, great, I suddenly integrated mIRC into the game client, which I can chat in while I interact with the npcs.
    Yes, you could have a game without npcs.  You could also have a game without content.  You could also have a game without things for players to do.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • kemono55kemono55 Member UncommonPosts: 124
    waynejr2 said:
    Yes, you could have a game without npcs.  You could also have a game without content.  You could also have a game without things for players to do.

    Do I really have to quote myself.
    kemono55 said:
    But it already have been done successfully, haven't it?
    Reign of Kings, ARK, Trove, Life is feudal.
Sign In or Register to comment.