I'm not sure having no healing is the cause of zerging, and I certain have played plenty of MMORPG's with formal healing that had lots of zerging in them.
Pretty much this. If anything "healing" can enable zerging as attackers will have no fear of falling with dedicated heals.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
No healing is incorrect. Crowfall WILL have healing. There will be no "firehose" healing. Also, friendly fire is in the plans as of now. So that would make zerging ineffective.
I truely dont get it.. MMORPG pvp game with no healing.. will this end up like GW2 zerg festing? Why do companies keep moving this direction were the healing classes are removed.. It totally destroys teamplay aspect of any mmorpg Gw2 already destroyed his teamplay aswell.. crowfall will go the same direction Camelot unchained remains on top of the list..
I don't get why people make posts without actually taking 5 min to find out any factual information.
CF will have healing, but will focus more on support and CC which adds to tactics/strategy instead of who can out spam heal the other or get the super duper heal off at the right moment.
RPGs and or team based games do not need strict dedicated healers. D&D, tabletop, single player games, fantasy books/movies, etc do not have trinity like systems typically.
Would be interested which team based PVP games or just mmorpgs in general use healing classes as you prefer that aren't themepark-WoW like games.
GW2 has decent teamplay if you actually play in a team and not part of the zerg. Hence the entire sPVP side of the game. "Good" players don't just magically get together with a couple solos and win, they work together.
Any game with large scale combat is a potential home for zergs. However, systems such as friendly fire, physics, recticle aiming along with action combat should make mindless buttonmashing armies a bit difficult. As well as hopefully no instant rez or whatever, so that as "good" folks pick off the crappy ones in a larger group, they won't pop back up instantly because some guy 10000 ft away hit 1 button.
Everyone uses DAOC as the litmus test for good PvP and fails to realize that 100% of DAOC's success was the extreme specialization of classes and the synergy between groups. Removing roles was a downfall to GW2, and unless they do something completely out of the box, will make this game into another modern "action" ie button spamming mess.
They appear to be doing just that, if not more than DAOC (my fav PVP mmo).
DAOC's skill pool was spread across similar or very different classes between the realms. But very few were totally unique.
CF's classes are going for the unique route without spreading the skills from what has been shown so far, which isn't too different since there aren't 3 unique realms. Less need to have 40+ classes out the gate, but much like a MOBA, they can (hopefully will) add more classes to the lineup over time and totally mix things up.
How well things will work together is yet to be seen, but it is a team based PVP game...
Overall though, CF has fairly specific roles, maybe even more so than DAoC.
Once you introduce pvp,there needs to be balance if not it will suck bad.Healing does not offer balance it creates lopsided combat.NO DAOC was NOT good combat,that idea is ridiculous.Crowd control as done in these games is FAKE looks unrealistic.
I do not see the intrigue behind rpg's and pvp,it will never be done well,it will always bring about spamming and zerging.Being able to CC a whole pile of players does not fix the problem it creates a new dumb idea.
pvp=player versus player NOT player versus MANY players.There is ONLY one way to focus good quality player versus player and that is in a fps with a good arena setting.PVP needs a good map layout,various weapon/attack choices,zaxis,hot points,healing,cover,escape routes and mmorpg's cannot offer these.
I could post videos of incredible skillful pvp but most would just turn a blind eye,they want to believe DCUO was a great pvp game,they want to believe rpg's can have great pvp,well they can't.
You want to believe that your preference is universal, but it isn't. It isn't a one size fits all.
DAoC's combat was "good" to many, just because you didn't like it (if you actually played) doesn't matter.
What you are talking about seems to be about fairness and balance, which is great and there are a ton of games that provide that (MOBA, FPS, RTS, CCG, a lot of instanced MMO stuff, etc).
Some folks actually enjoy the challenge of not knowing what the enemy will have or how they will use it along with taking a build along with a team and using it in a unique way. Totally different styles of playing.
Don't like PVP? No problem, don't play it. Doesn't make it bad/good, these are totally personal and subjective terms.
What is actually funny (ironic?) is some several of the "must have" items you list to make a good PVP mmo, Crowfall will have...
Kids today don't like games with dedicated healers tanks etc, because then you actually have to play with other people in an online game instead of soloing with the zerg which is so popular these days.
Kids today don't like games with dedicated healers tanks etc, because then you actually have to play with other people in an online game instead of soloing with the zerg which is so popular these days.
Old farts seem to like insulting and deriding anyone who likes games different to what they grew up with.
what i meant is.. By removing healing for a mmorpg.. all what is left aeo spamm fest. and or dps groupplay is completely destroyed
One has nothing to do with the other. Also, can you link to where they said there was no healing during battle? I'm not saying they didn't say that, only that I couldn't find it and it would make the conversation a bit easier to understand if I could see what you were basing this on.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
MMORPG pvp game with no healing.. will this end up like GW2 zerg festing?
Why do companies keep moving this direction were the healing classes are removed..
It totally destroys teamplay aspect of any mmorpg
Gw2 already destroyed his teamplay aswell.. crowfall will go the same direction
Camelot unchained remains on top of the list..
If you think GW2 is about zerg festing you haven't played the game right, don't have a clue about GW pvp and chose the easiest option as in "follow the leader and press all specials without having a clue about what they are doing and hope for the best pvp".
Kinda sad if you can not think outside the easy 'tank-Dps-healer' setups.
I LOVE to pick on zergs solo in bunker builds or quick gank&spank builds. Pick a target, kill them and nothing the 50+ can do about it.
As for your Camelot Unchained promo: the game isn't even Live yet or has proven it's worth.
You can't just ride in here talking about gw2 pvp not being a zerg fest after years of it being exactly that. The fact that you like to have exactly zero impact on the game with your solo builds doesn't mean the game isn't a zerg fest.
Healer no healer! You can Zerg all you want!
Though, there is more to just being in group zerging in GW2. You forget or do not know how beneficial combo/finishers are.
What is this obsession with healers anyway? I have seen lots of back and forth, but no one has explained how "healers" make a game better. I have seen from experience that zergs existing in games with or without healing, as does group play.
Also, now that some kind posters have clarified that there is actually healing in the game does that mean it will now be good?
DAoC did the best job at making zerg teams less effective. I would not call it a valid tactic, I would call it a lazy tactic =-) From both the side of the player and the developer. GW2 does have healing, lots of classes have HoT and insta heals are done by each class on them selves. IMO why that game is so zergish is the lack of a solid trinity system, limits of AoE and as you mentioned no real solid CC classes.
ESO have a trinity system and still is as zergy.
Players will play use the easiest tactics with good rewards. And if zerging is a fast way to take down many enemies and get much loot it will be the standard tactics of most of the players.
It is just bad risk Vs reward rate. Trinity have nothing to do with it. If it rewards better with 10 minutes working in a small team than 10 minutes in a zerg then players will work in small teams.
It's not even close man. Some people zerg in ESO. Most don't. It's not a stack on crown thing. Healers in ESO allow people to spread out. Plus the hit cap is 60 in ESO which makes stacking much more dangerous than the 6 hit cap in GW2.
ESO large scale PvP is just a lot better designed than gw2. I think even if ESO had no dedicated healers it would still be significantly less zergy than gw2.
DAoC did the best job at making zerg teams less effective. I would not call it a valid tactic, I would call it a lazy tactic =-) From both the side of the player and the developer. GW2 does have healing, lots of classes have HoT and insta heals are done by each class on them selves. IMO why that game is so zergish is the lack of a solid trinity system, limits of AoE and as you mentioned no real solid CC classes.
ESO have a trinity system and still is as zergy.
Players will play use the easiest tactics with good rewards. And if zerging is a fast way to take down many enemies and get much loot it will be the standard tactics of most of the players.
It is just bad risk Vs reward rate. Trinity have nothing to do with it. If it rewards better with 10 minutes working in a small team than 10 minutes in a zerg then players will work in small teams.
It's not even close man. Some people zerg in ESO. Most don't. It's not a stack on crown thing. Healers in ESO allow people to spread out. Plus the hit cap is 60 in ESO which makes stacking much more dangerous than the 6 hit cap in GW2.
ESO large scale PvP is just a lot better designed than gw2. I think even if ESO had no dedicated healers it would still be significantly less zergy than gw2.
I find in both games you can play either in the zerg or as part of a smaller organized team. In general though I find ESO's open world pvp more exciting than GW2, but it has nothing to do with healers- its things like real choke points, the stealth mechanic, longer travel times, harder to revive, and more interesting siege mechanics, etc that set it apart (plus the great atmosphere).
This whole discussion about healer beeing beneficial for rpg or not is kind of misleading. The real discussion is a game design choice: Do you want forced grouping or not?
Healing classes, tanking classes, crowdcontrol classes are just simply a game mechanism for forced grouping. Or to to be more general it is forced player interaction.
In all games an organized group with equal skill and gear will always win against a soloist. So if it comes to that all games without arena fights are zerg games.
The choices in games design regarding the topics under discussion here - simply encourage or dont encourage grouping.
The game mechanics can just make a difference about how common among the player population grouping is.
The more versatile and unique a class or skill system is the more ppl you need to actually work well as a group.
I am also a DAOC and SWG player so my ideal game is pure FORCED PLAYER INTERACTION. Forced grouping encourages a working community within the game. The better a community is the longer the player stay with the game over time. But a community also a tendance to be close itself. So it gets harder for new player to find their place in such a community.
What i tried to lay out here is that it is just that an encouragement of choice. But the final choice is still yours - play as a group or dont.
No healing is incorrect. Crowfall WILL have healing. There will be no "firehose" healing. Also, friendly fire is in the plans as of now. So that would make zerging ineffective.
I'm not arguing your point, but would like to know how friendly fire would make zerging ineffective. imho a zerg is a zerg no matter who is around you, you are still going to attack.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
I'm not sure having no healing is the cause of zerging, and I certain have played plenty of MMORPG's with formal healing that had lots of zerging in them.
I think the lack of proper support classes such as strong crowd controllers is the real cause of zerging, in DAOC when a Sorc could AOE Mezz 20 people and freeze them dead it was a big incentive to spread out a bit and make sure you weren't all caught in the snare.
No matter what you do, there will always be zerging, at the end of the day it's a valid tactic and if your side has the numbers, might as well use them to your advantage.
This. But usually devs cave to players and start trying to balance around 1 v 1. And when they do that they usually destroy all CC (looks at Darkfall). I think there should be healing. Obviously not WoW type healing, that is way too much. Some weak heal over times should be fine.
I really like that they are adding friendly fire. Definitely a challenge but it changes the tactics of the game completely (in a good way).
No healing is incorrect. Crowfall WILL have healing. There will be no "firehose" healing. Also, friendly fire is in the plans as of now. So that would make zerging ineffective.
I'm not arguing your point, but would like to know how friendly fire would make zerging ineffective. imho a zerg is a zerg no matter who is around you, you are still going to attack.
I don't think any one factor will cause or prevent a "zergy" game style, but friendly fire could help a game be less zergy because combined with body blocking it means you can't run in big groups just spamming aoe abilities, it forces structure in a group (for better success) and makes tactics more important.
In ESO for example one tactic is to just to stack on a player and then run around as a tight group spamming high damage aoe abilities and heals (a similar thing is done in GW2). Its that kind of thing that makes a game feel cheesy and "zergy" in pvp (ironically this tactic is lauded as a way to break zergs).
By removing healing for a mmorpg.. all what is left aeo spamm fest. and or dps
groupplay is completely destroyed
There are a lot of other aspects that encourage grouping and team-play other than healing one another. In SWG most players were self sufficient when it came to staying alive in PVP, few went the dedicated healer route, yet group play was pretty much fundamental in that games PVP, especially in terms of base take downs. Having dedicated battlefield roles (other than the trinity doctrine) as well as group objectives can go a long way to providing incentives to be in a strategic group.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
what i meant is.. By removing healing for a mmorpg.. all what is left aeo spamm fest. and or dps groupplay is completely destroyed
One has nothing to do with the other. Also, can you link to where they said there was no healing during battle? I'm not saying they didn't say that, only that I couldn't find it and it would make the conversation a bit easier to understand if I could see what you were basing this on.
You are wrong. When no one has to rely on anyone else other than to pull aggro once in a while to spread the pain around, there is no real group play or player to player interaction, its dead, its solo play with other people soloing near you. That's what makes most of the new MMO's soulless. There just single player games that let you do your single player thing standing next to other people. How is it not obvious.
what i meant is.. By removing healing for a mmorpg.. all what is left aeo spamm fest. and or dps groupplay is completely destroyed
One has nothing to do with the other. Also, can you link to where they said there was no healing during battle? I'm not saying they didn't say that, only that I couldn't find it and it would make the conversation a bit easier to understand if I could see what you were basing this on.
You are wrong. When no one has to rely on anyone else other than to pull aggro once in a while to spread the pain around, there is no real group play or player to player interaction, its dead, its solo play with other people soloing near you. That's what makes most of the new MMO's soulless. There just single player games that let you do your single player thing standing next to other people. How is it not obvious.
Its obvious that you haven't thought about this much and just keep parroting the same line without actually providing any reasoning to back up your opinion; not to mention that you don't even seem to understand that this is a pvp game.....
guys healing has almost nothing to do with zerging. the main driving forces for zerging are its even close to viable for progression combined with organized play meta has moved to a place where most players cannot play at without being trained and developers do not do a good enough job on the design side to train the masses to not just zerg easymode zerg herp derp so thats what we get.
As others have stated. there will be friendly fire in Crowfall. That alone will prevent mindless swarm tactics, since everyone's attacks do not just etherially pass through their allies. The problem with GW2 is they give no clear direction for how each job is to be played. Any number of roles help to clarify what a player can do by giving them some concept to latch onto for guidance. At the same time, too many players have grown complacent with WoW's trinity.
The roles never had to be limited to "tank, healer, DD" and the industry has suffered from it. I'd also say the trinity is the absolute worst role division for PvP. Firehose healing, enough tank bunkering to render DD helpless, tanks slapping people with the strength of a bowl of wet noodles, etc.
Comments
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
CF will have healing, but will focus more on support and CC which adds to tactics/strategy instead of who can out spam heal the other or get the super duper heal off at the right moment.
RPGs and or team based games do not need strict dedicated healers. D&D, tabletop, single player games, fantasy books/movies, etc do not have trinity like systems typically.
Would be interested which team based PVP games or just mmorpgs in general use healing classes as you prefer that aren't themepark-WoW like games.
GW2 has decent teamplay if you actually play in a team and not part of the zerg. Hence the entire sPVP side of the game. "Good" players don't just magically get together with a couple solos and win, they work together.
Any game with large scale combat is a potential home for zergs. However, systems such as friendly fire, physics, recticle aiming along with action combat should make mindless buttonmashing armies a bit difficult. As well as hopefully no instant rez or whatever, so that as "good" folks pick off the crappy ones in a larger group, they won't pop back up instantly because some guy 10000 ft away hit 1 button.
DAOC's skill pool was spread across similar or very different classes between the realms. But very few were totally unique.
CF's classes are going for the unique route without spreading the skills from what has been shown so far, which isn't too different since there aren't 3 unique realms. Less need to have 40+ classes out the gate, but much like a MOBA, they can (hopefully will) add more classes to the lineup over time and totally mix things up.
How well things will work together is yet to be seen, but it is a team based PVP game...
Overall though, CF has fairly specific roles, maybe even more so than DAoC.
No signs of total button mashing yet.
You want to believe that your preference is universal, but it isn't. It isn't a one size fits all.
DAoC's combat was "good" to many, just because you didn't like it (if you actually played) doesn't matter.
What you are talking about seems to be about fairness and balance, which is great and there are a ton of games that provide that (MOBA, FPS, RTS, CCG, a lot of instanced MMO stuff, etc).
Some folks actually enjoy the challenge of not knowing what the enemy will have or how they will use it along with taking a build along with a team and using it in a unique way. Totally different styles of playing.
Don't like PVP? No problem, don't play it. Doesn't make it bad/good, these are totally personal and subjective terms.
What is actually funny (ironic?) is some several of the "must have" items you list to make a good PVP mmo, Crowfall will have...
Such silly blanket statements.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Though, there is more to just being in group zerging in GW2. You forget or do not know how beneficial combo/finishers are.
Also, now that some kind posters have clarified that there is actually healing in the game does that mean it will now be good?
No amount of cool moves or gimmicks will change it as i have seen with GW2 wich is by all standards one of the better mmo's out there.
It will be a AoE / Zerg type pvp wich might be good but not for me personaly.
The rest of the game looks very promising tough, but it will never make up for a pure healing class wich i love to play in mmo's.
Healing classes, tanking classes, crowdcontrol classes are just simply a game mechanism for forced grouping. Or to to be more general it is forced player interaction.
In all games an organized group with equal skill and gear will always win against a soloist. So if it comes to that all games without arena fights are zerg games.
The choices in games design regarding the topics under discussion here - simply encourage or dont encourage grouping.
The game mechanics can just make a difference about how common among the player population grouping is.
The more versatile and unique a class or skill system is the more ppl you need to actually work well as a group.
I am also a DAOC and SWG player so my ideal game is pure FORCED PLAYER INTERACTION.
Forced grouping encourages a working community within the game. The better a community is the longer the player stay with the game over time. But a community also a tendance to be close itself. So it gets harder for new player to find their place in such a community.
What i tried to lay out here is that it is just that an encouragement of choice. But the final choice is still yours - play as a group or dont.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
I really like that they are adding friendly fire. Definitely a challenge but it changes the tactics of the game completely (in a good way).
In ESO for example one tactic is to just to stack on a player and then run around as a tight group spamming high damage aoe abilities and heals (a similar thing is done in GW2). Its that kind of thing that makes a game feel cheesy and "zergy" in pvp (ironically this tactic is lauded as a way to break zergs).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The roles never had to be limited to "tank, healer, DD" and the industry has suffered from it. I'd also say the trinity is the absolute worst role division for PvP. Firehose healing, enough tank bunkering to render DD helpless, tanks slapping people with the strength of a bowl of wet noodles, etc.