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I truly believe that one of the reasons why WoW is so popular is that it is one of the least obnoxious MMOs in regards to loot distribution and exclusivity of content. Since no other MMO has taken on that paradigm, it could be a fluke, but what if one did and it excelled in today's large crop of failures and under performing games? I'm still waiting for a casual, but complex game to come out that doesn't end up catering to raiders in the end. You would think developers would take the idea seriously as we casuals seem to dominate the market. Maybe the problem is that most developers are hardcore raiders themselves and can't or won't see past it.
I truly believe that one of the reasons why WoW is so popular is that it is one of the least obnoxious MMOs in regards to loot distribution and exclusivity of content. Since no other MMO has taken on that paradigm, it could be a fluke, but what if one did and it excelled in today's large crop of failures and under performing games? I'm still waiting for a casual, but complex game to come out that doesn't end up catering to raiders in the end. You would think developers would take the idea seriously as we casuals seem to dominate the market. Maybe the problem is that most developers are hardcore raiders themselves and can't or won't see past it.
I think its more along the lines that developers have a difficult time releasing end game content. Raids are the least expensive and resource intensive features in an MMO and they keep the player base busy at end game buying developers time before releasing updates and expansions. WoW mastered this design raking in the millions while keeping players on hamster wheels feening for that +1 sword. The problem for developers wishing to copy this model is that the player base is tired of it and are much more reluctant to play hamster now days. Research has proven that only a very small minority of the current MMORPG player base actually enjoy raids now days. Developers keep trying to push the feature, however, because it is cheaply developed content that keeps the player base playing and paying. Raids have seen their day. It is high time for them to go the way of the do-do bird.
Aradune said: The very best items will still mostly drop in raids, so if you have to have the very best, you'll need to raid a bit. If you are instead content with great gear, just not the absolute highest tier, and you don't care for raiding, you don't need to. I will say, though, that if you make the decision that you have to have the highest tier items (which will usually only be necessary in order to participate in raids -- in other words, you won't need top tier raid items to group at the 'end game'), but don't want to raid, you're going to have to find similar crafted items, or trade for the raid items, or something. I don't consider this 'forced raiding', just like I don't consider the game to be 'forced grouping'. But we realize not everyone will see it that way.
Honestly, the crux of this issue isn't about who has better items. It all comes down to the motivating factor of playing. In a game of this sort the fundamental motivator is progression. Gaining levels and upgrading items. I often wish this wasn't the case but it is and we all know it.
So the problem arises if a person realizes that they can no longer progress in any significant way. It not an issue of logging in and seeing someone with better stuff than you have and getting all upset about that. It's logging in and standing around with nothing to do while the reality sinks in that you've hit a wall and can't go any further.
The anger and feeling of unfairness doesn't arise from knowing that other people have better stuff (there will always be people who are ahead of you) it comes from knowing that a select group is provided with the means to continue progressing while you are blocked off from continued advancement.
And you see Brad, you are still repeating some of your old lines for this sort of thing. Saying that top tier items are only necessary to participate in raids, ergo---people who don't raid don't need high end items. In other words, only hardcore raiders deserve to progress and anyone who doesn't fall into that group shouldn't be allowed to continue progressing.
This misses the whole point. The point is that everyone needs a way to continue progressing. Wherever they are at on the item curve they need a way to keep going.
The assumption in your thinking was, and apparently still is, that after a certain point only a certain subset of the player base should be allowed to continue advancing. You're not doing that content so you don't need that gear so just sit in a corner and be quiet. Well, sitting in a corner and being quiet isn't much fun. Not having any content which you can use to continue progressing at your own pace isn't fun. Your philosophy is that people like me aren't supposed to have fun after a certain point we're just supposed to sit there and watch others have fun.
Well, whatever, make the game as you please. But you still don't seem to understand the problem. I just wish you'd be a little more honest about it. If it's going to be a game to please the hardcore raiding subset of players that's fine, just be open about that. Don't try to con people into thinking it's anything else.
I have no problem with that subset of players getting a game they'll love. Good for them. I just don't want to waste my time with it.
You misunderstand what I've said, and I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough. We are NOT making an MMO where the 'end game' is all about raiding. In fact, the majority of content at the 'end game' will be group oriented. So the assumption that the higher level player who doesn't join a big raid will be sitting around, bored, with nothing to do is false. Our goal is to have plenty to do, regardless of what level you are. You should always have content to consume, items to obtain, and a way to progress your character (I will, however, add one caveat to that, because I am making a commitment to always be open and honest with you guys: even with plenty of grouping content at all levels, including the 'end game', there will always be the bleeding edge player who consumes all of our content before we can release an expansion or new module. No matter how hard we work at updating the game, keeping it fresh, and expanding it, a small group of hard core players will get through most things ahead of us). But for most players, this shouldn't be the case.
So, just to make sure I'm being as clear as possible, when you say "Your philosophy is that people like me aren't supposed to have fun after a certain point we're just supposed to sit there and watch others have fun" you are absolutely incorrect. That is most certainly *not* my philosophy nor my goal. Grouping content, raiding content, and even to some degree soloing content, will exist at ALL levels, including the 'end game'.
While I do appreciate your desire to address this issue, I feel it may be futile. I believe it's a matter of somehow getting the "core gamer" to understand progression can exist beyond raid content. A thorough understanding of risk versus reward is required to accept there are just some things one will never have access to as a "core gamer", yet that in no way should imply no other avenues of progression will exist and you're stuck wandering PoT, watching all of the raiders with their uber gear run by. Understanding of what we'd call "the journey" seems to be mirky at best.
Epics are a good example. I was never able to raid more than Innoruuk and Mithaniel Marr in EQ1 after playing 5 years. I was, however, able to level my cleric and mage to 65 and acquire both of their epics in that time. I'm personally glad I experienced Innoruuk and Mithaniel, because it made me appreciate the endless hours I spent grouping in Oasis, Upper/Lower Guk, Karnor's, Velks, ToFS, Kael etc. that much more. That was the journey and ultimately what these games are about. I'm convinced at this point that most who are attempting to make this argument of "I should have access to everything or I'll be bored...whoa is me", have never really experienced a true MMORPG and likely came onto the scene post 2004. Does no one recall what it was like getting 60+ people together to reach a common goal? If not, here's a bit of enlightenment for you. You're "that guy".
For every person who reads things like "No PvP" and scoffs, understand someone else is reading it and thinking "Thank God". What may seem like the smallest things to some can have a ripple effect you may never have anticipated. If the current mold works and has been working since WoW began to dominate this genre, F2P wouldn't be so prominent and those games starting as subscription based, then going F2P when they flop, wouldn't be shutting down months later. If I may offer a political example, in what world does a guy like Donald Trump lead GOP polls nationally? A world where the current presidential seat is held my someone who has been trying to be everything to everyone. Work hard enough to appease all and you will succeed at appeasing none.
.....have never really experienced a true MMORPG and likely came onto the scene post 2004. Does no one recall what it was like getting 60+ people together to reach a common goal?
Work hard enough to appease all and you will succeed at appeasing none.
For the record I started played MMOs in late 1999 with Everquest and I remember all too well what it was like trying to get 60+ people together for a raid. I remember all that bullshit so well that I know I never want to put up with anything like that again.
On the other hand I loved the low to mid-level part of EQ when it was all about grouping and I would love a game that focuses on that. But only if the focus stays on that and doesn't switch to a multi-group raid focus at the end. And if someone says that it has to switch to a raid focus that is entirely arbitrary. Why must it? Where is it written in stone that it must be that way?
Did you notice earlier where Brad wrote that high end items are only needed for raids so if you don't raid you don't need those items? Ok, here's a thought, why not make single group content which you do need high end items to beat? Huh? Why not? The only reason not to is if the developers don't want to. This clearly indicates that the focus of his game (if it actually gets made at all) will be on multi-group raids. Now that's fine and dandy but then explain to me why should anyone who doesn't like that sort of thing waste their time playing that game?
I agree with your concluding sentence. You can't please everyone. If they want to please the raiding crowd to the exclusion of all others they should just say so. Of course I've already pointed out why they won't say that. And that really is what riles me up about this. They want to please a certain segment of players but at the same time they want people who aren't in that demographic to play the game and fork over money to subsidize the chosen demographic which they themselves are not a part of. Well, I say to hell with that.
I truly believe that one of the reasons why WoW is so popular is that it is one of the least obnoxious MMOs in regards to loot distribution and exclusivity of content. Since no other MMO has taken on that paradigm, it could be a fluke, but what if one did and it excelled in today's large crop of failures and under performing games? I'm still waiting for a casual, but complex game to come out that doesn't end up catering to raiders in the end. You would think developers would take the idea seriously as we casuals seem to dominate the market. Maybe the problem is that most developers are hardcore raiders themselves and can't or won't see past it.
I'm not a raider by any means, but doesn't it make more sense to reward 20 people for achieving a greater task than one person for an easy solo task? The best loot should come from raids or crafters who got the materials from raids.
Also the danger of group based games is that you do need great gear.....Both EQ and WoW came down to whether you were geared well enough, especially if you were a tank.
.....have never really experienced a true MMORPG and likely came onto the scene post 2004. Does no one recall what it was like getting 60+ people together to reach a common goal?
Work hard enough to appease all and you will succeed at appeasing none.
For the record I started played MMOs in late 1999 with Everquest and I remember all too well what it was like trying to get 60+ people together for a raid. I remember all that bullshit so well that I know I never want to put up with anything like that again.
On the other hand I loved the low to mid-level part of EQ when it was all about grouping and I would love a game that focuses on that. But only if the focus stays on that and doesn't switch to a multi-group raid focus at the end. And if someone says that it has to switch to a raid focus that is entirely arbitrary. Why must it? Where is it written in stone that it must be that way?
Did you notice earlier where Brad wrote that high end items are only needed for raids so if you don't raid you don't need those items? Ok, here's a thought, why not make single group content which you do need high end items to beat? Huh? Why not? The only reason not to is if the developers don't want to. This clearly indicates that the focus of his game (if it actually gets made at all) will be on multi-group raids. Now that's fine and dandy but then explain to me why should anyone who doesn't like that sort of thing waste their time playing that game?
I agree with your concluding sentence. You can't please everyone. If they want to please the raiding crowd to the exclusion of all others they should just say so. Of course I've already pointed out why they won't say that. And that really is what riles me up about this. They want to please a certain segment of players but at the same time they want people who aren't in that demographic to play the game and fork over money to subsidize the chosen demographic which they themselves are not a part of. Well, I say to hell with that.
The poster you quoted is the standard answer given by raiders. He is basically proclaiming, without proof of fact, that raiding is the hardest feature in an MMORPG bar none, and as such is therefore deserving of the grandest gear. Well guess what? Most of us who aren't raiders, and who dislike the feature, vehemently disagree.
I'd even venture to go as far as to say that most developers would likewise disagree and the only reason they implement raiding in their games is because its the cheapest end game feature in terms of cost and resource dependency to incorporate into an MMORPG that will keep the player base happy the longest before they have to buckle down and add more end game content.
Research has proven that only a very small percentage of players engage in raids now days. There is no reason, other than the aforementioned, that developers should continue to incorporate this time consuming hamster treadmill mechanic in MMORPG's today. It is an antiquated mechanic that served well in a day when MMORPGs where not as advanced and did not have the benefit of the technology available today. Gamers should feel insulted when presented with this type of antiquated hamster wheel type mechanic in an MMORPG in this day and age.
This has nothing to do with entitlement. It is simply a matter of demanding and expecting better from developers and the MMORPG industry. The technology is available for those developers who dare venture outside of the box. The genre will continue to waddle in mediocrity until the industry gets away from this the quick money grab gimmicks that have become prevalent in this industry and get back to innovating and pushing the genre forward.
Well, here we are a week into Oct.
Where's all this Pantheon that was supposed to be "busting out at the end of September"? Not even a hint at all that glory being delayed?
Comments
I think its more along the lines that developers have a difficult time releasing end game content. Raids are the least expensive and resource intensive features in an MMO and they keep the player base busy at end game buying developers time before releasing updates and expansions. WoW mastered this design raking in the millions while keeping players on hamster wheels feening for that +1 sword. The problem for developers wishing to copy this model is that the player base is tired of it and are much more reluctant to play hamster now days. Research has proven that only a very small minority of the current MMORPG player base actually enjoy raids now days. Developers keep trying to push the feature, however, because it is cheaply developed content that keeps the player base playing and paying. Raids have seen their day. It is high time for them to go the way of the do-do bird.
For the record I started played MMOs in late 1999 with Everquest and I remember all too well what it was like trying to get 60+ people together for a raid. I remember all that bullshit so well that I know I never want to put up with anything like that again.
On the other hand I loved the low to mid-level part of EQ when it was all about grouping and I would love a game that focuses on that. But only if the focus stays on that and doesn't switch to a multi-group raid focus at the end. And if someone says that it has to switch to a raid focus that is entirely arbitrary. Why must it? Where is it written in stone that it must be that way?
Did you notice earlier where Brad wrote that high end items are only needed for raids so if you don't raid you don't need those items? Ok, here's a thought, why not make single group content which you do need high end items to beat? Huh? Why not? The only reason not to is if the developers don't want to. This clearly indicates that the focus of his game (if it actually gets made at all) will be on multi-group raids. Now that's fine and dandy but then explain to me why should anyone who doesn't like that sort of thing waste their time playing that game?
I agree with your concluding sentence. You can't please everyone. If they want to please the raiding crowd to the exclusion of all others they should just say so. Of course I've already pointed out why they won't say that. And that really is what riles me up about this. They want to please a certain segment of players but at the same time they want people who aren't in that demographic to play the game and fork over money to subsidize the chosen demographic which they themselves are not a part of. Well, I say to hell with that.
The poster you quoted is the standard answer given by raiders. He is basically proclaiming, without proof of fact, that raiding is the hardest feature in an MMORPG bar none, and as such is therefore deserving of the grandest gear. Well guess what? Most of us who aren't raiders, and who dislike the feature, vehemently disagree.
I'd even venture to go as far as to say that most developers would likewise disagree and the only reason they implement raiding in their games is because its the cheapest end game feature in terms of cost and resource dependency to incorporate into an MMORPG that will keep the player base happy the longest before they have to buckle down and add more end game content.
Research has proven that only a very small percentage of players engage in raids now days. There is no reason, other than the aforementioned, that developers should continue to incorporate this time consuming hamster treadmill mechanic in MMORPG's today. It is an antiquated mechanic that served well in a day when MMORPGs where not as advanced and did not have the benefit of the technology available today. Gamers should feel insulted when presented with this type of antiquated hamster wheel type mechanic in an MMORPG in this day and age.
This has nothing to do with entitlement. It is simply a matter of demanding and expecting better from developers and the MMORPG industry. The technology is available for those developers who dare venture outside of the box. The genre will continue to waddle in mediocrity until the industry gets away from this the quick money grab gimmicks that have become prevalent in this industry and get back to innovating and pushing the genre forward.