Free to play is a cheap game for those who can not afford to pay for a much better games. Thus, those playing Free style of games have to deal with all the riff-raff, or bored people who are just killing time, or snooping around in a free realm.
Free is enticing for children, because they do not earn an income, nor do they need a Credit Card.
Pretty sure this was troll bait, but what the heck, I will bite. Not gonna get a crazy rant out of me though.
I am well past the child age. I have paid subs for many games through the years. I am quite capable of paying for a game and subs. I even preferred to pay subs, but not because the games are better. There are several free to play games out there which hold their own against some of the best sub games. Many F2P games have sub-like offerings that bundle several cash shop benefits into one easy monthly payment.
You speak of riff-raff in F2P games as though riff-raff doesn't exist in sub games. Some would even argue that the "old school" and "hardcore" players that you can find in sub games ARE the riff-raff, elitest, snob, higher than thou players of the gaming world. As far as bored players, you must not ever watch general chat in any sub games. It is just as bad as F2P games.
You also claim that free is enticing for children because of their lack of income. In my experience, children have income...through their parents. And it is 100% disposable. It would be reasonable to assume a parent would be willing to pay for a sub vs multiple transactions for cash shop items. If all I had to pay was $15 a month for my children's entertainment, I would glady do so.
Your statement that people snoop around in a F2P game makes it sound like this is the only place this happens. Snooping around in a free realm has been around for a long time in sub games. It's called trial periods, or invite-a-friend-weekend, or 7 day pass, etc. Many of the sub games I no longer play even offer me a free week to come back and see what I am missing.
So basically, you are just spewing out a bunch of blah blah blah about F2P being inferior and attracting the riff-raff of society, as if the internet doesn't already do that just fine. You are wrong, and that's ok.
You forgot to add that if these players are playing f2p, are they then not also part of that "riffraff"?
Anyway, I think what the main gist of it is,IMO, is that those who typically bounce from f2p to f2p are the same players that tend to gobble up expansions in p2p games in record time. They then abandon ship until the next expansion, never actually committing to "playing" the whole game, let alone becoming part of the virtual world in a mmorpg, but just consuming it with no regard for the game/community itself. You can often id these players by their names... xxxgunsforhirexxx, or some other such non-immersive label.
As for not making money off of people that won't give you any, that seems pretty obvious. What also seems obvious is that F2P, currently, is making far more money than P2P ever did, with some few exceptions of course. It seems that it is possible to make more money by asking for it after the fact versus demanding it up front. If that means that they have to let 97% of the market play mostly for free then so be it.
This is the part that I think most people don't get. F2P games ARE making money off of the people who aren't paying for the game.
There are tons of MMOs as well as regular online games fighting for our attention. Games rise and fall before they are even released. Many MMOs, sub and F2P fail due to not enough people playing. Just like single player games, MMOs now have a transient population. And this is where "freeloaders" help the F2P games. They help flesh out the population on the servers. What good is having all the great gear if there isn't anyone to walk by and see it? They help lure in new potential players; players that WILL invest money into the game. Paying customers that will leave if their non-paying friends leave the game. So although whales help drive F2P revenue, the non-paying customers are vital to the longevity and financial success of games.
Anyway, I think what the main gist of it is,IMO, is that those who typically bounce from f2p to f2p are the same players that tend to gobble up expansions in p2p games in record time. They then abandon ship until the next expansion, never actually committing to "playing" the whole game, let alone becoming part of the virtual world in a mmorpg, but just consuming it with no regard for the game/community itself. You can often id these players by their names... xxxgunsforhirexxx, or some other such non-immersive label.
I absolutely agree. Unfortunately, with the overall staleness of MMOs in general right now, I believe even the die hard subbers are bouncing from game to game, looking for the next great game that will give them the 5+ years of happiness their first MMO gave them. When something innovative and groundbreaking finally comes out, maybe we will see a true community form again.
I posted in here yesterday and yes I ended up coming across as attacking the OP. Just wanted to say sorry for that and yeah sometimes I do post with way to much emotion.
But when it comes to F2P I do feel it has ruined the gaming industry with MMO's. No matter the MMO I play whether it be F2P, or B2P I will always sub to it to support the game if I love it. After all if the game doesn't make money it won't stay F2P or B2P for long.
It is no surprise that all MMO's that have ended up successful were always P2P. I wish this F2P concept was never invented. Even thou with cell phones am sure it would of come along at some point. Just wish it never hit our MMO's.
No troubles. It happens to us all. Thanks for expounding on your thoughts.
Anyway, I think what the main gist of it is,IMO, is that those who typically bounce from f2p to f2p are the same players that tend to gobble up expansions in p2p games in record time. They then abandon ship until the next expansion, never actually committing to "playing" the whole game, let alone becoming part of the virtual world in a mmorpg, but just consuming it with no regard for the game/community itself. You can often id these players by their names... xxxgunsforhirexxx, or some other such non-immersive label.
I absolutely agree. Unfortunately, with the overall staleness of MMOs in general right now, I believe even the die hard subbers are bouncing from game to game, looking for the next great game that will give them the 5+ years of happiness their first MMO gave them. When something innovative and groundbreaking finally comes out, maybe we will see a true community form again.
IMO, I'm not convinced that "something innovative and groundbreaking" has to come out.
I know if someone could redo UO before Tram, with a pvp toggle, and updated their UI(secure trades) and graphics to something more like LoTRO or AA, that that would be all that's needed for me to return and pay a yearly sub.
I don't mind a grind if the reward for it can't be usurped by someone buying their way past me, and I don't mind having to do groups to beat back a world boss, or even to be able to survive dungeons that spawn rare mats or beasts to tame(ie.dragons), let alone travel the open seas in search of the co-ordinates for those water-logged treasure maps(this coming from a mostly solo player), as long as they aren't totally beyound the realm of possibility for an innovative(stealth, traps, etc) or foolhardy(ie. Leroy Jenkins) player to attempt on their own.
The beauty of UO for many, was that all the tools were there for us to use, some did and some didn't, but you weren't penalized if all you wanted to do was fish all day and have some little shop in the middle of nowhere with a vendor, but if you wanted to get rich with some huge mansion in Luna with mega vendors supplying rare goods(your own or rented out to others) that was possible too.
It was all up to the individual on how to play their character/s, some were "heroes", some were mercenaries, some were thieves/beggars, some were bakers, some were gatherers/hunters/fishers/tamers, some became renown blacksmiths/tailors while others were satisfied just making basic goods like scrolls, potions, and reasonably priced armour/weapon/reagent kits(for those emergencies when you had just lost everything), etc.
Anyway, I feel that there is room for at least a few of our old faves to be reborn, hopefully a few will try.
It depends on the game. I am playing some right now that I would not even consider playing if they charged a fee. If it was something that caught my attention the way SWG did, then sure I would play.
This baffles me. Why is a game "playable" but not "worth money to play?" I take it you have fun playing the games you would not spend money on, but... why?
Not sure how it 'baffles' you. Not trying to insult (actually I could not give two shits if I insult you or not) your intelligence here but it's a pretty simple concept. The game is ok, it allows me to waste time, therefore it is worth it to me to play since it is free. However it's not so mind bending good that I would in anyway pay to play the game.
Let me try another way. I like pickups, I drive 4 wheel drive trucks and motorcycles. Lets focus on the trucks for the sake of this conversation.
I prefer 4 wheel drive pickups and that is all I will spend my money on as far as 4 wheel transportation is concerned. However, if someone were to give me say a Prius and I had a long road trip in front of me, I would take the Prius for a number of reasons not least of which the money I would save on fuel.
So while I prefer pickups, the Prius is good enough since it was free and will save me money. Same concept with the games I play. They are good enough when free, but I would not pay for them.
Also, while I play a lot of video games, they are not my sole hobby nor my life. I have a very different life and very different experiences than you do. So, I am baffled at you being baffled by my opinions.
I hope this helps, but I doubt it will.
It would have been much simpler to say, "Some MMOs I play as a guilty pleasure. They provide fun for a little while but are not worth any price to play." But instead, you decided to go the "attack the poster" route, because you could no come up with a good explanation.
If you play a game, you are being entertained, I hope. Paying for entertainment is what normal people do.
PS: That car analogy was way out in right field.
EDIT: On further thought, paying for entertainment may be the abnormal way...
Games are not created without cost and a company needs to make a profit off them to maintain them, so whether it is "free to play", buy to play or subscription players need to support the game monetarily in order to keep playing the game. I prefer to support my games with a subscription when there is an option for it. I like the sub. model.
And as far as recent games go, what is the longest time you have subbed in a game for?
Because saying you like sub and actually subbing are different.
Be honest now...
Well, many F2P players count on the whales to pay their way and keep the game afloat. Coat-tail riding is a popular MMO practice these days.
As for not making money off of people that won't give you any, that seems pretty obvious. What also seems obvious is that F2P, currently, is making far more money than P2P ever did, with some few exceptions of course. It seems that it is possible to make more money by asking for it after the fact versus demanding it up front. If that means that they have to let 97% of the market play mostly for free then so be it.
This is the part that I think most people don't get. F2P games ARE making money off of the people who aren't paying for the game.
There are tons of MMOs as well as regular online games fighting for our attention. Games rise and fall before they are even released. Many MMOs, sub and F2P fail due to not enough people playing. Just like single player games, MMOs now have a transient population. And this is where "freeloaders" help the F2P games. They help flesh out the population on the servers. What good is having all the great gear if there isn't anyone to walk by and see it? They help lure in new potential players; players that WILL invest money into the game. Paying customers that will leave if their non-paying friends leave the game. So although whales help drive F2P revenue, the non-paying customers are vital to the longevity and financial success of games.
The trouble I have with this reasoning is that most MMOs today are single player games anyway. Why do we need other players? Ah, yes. For the raiding or PvP if it is in the game.
It costs money to host the servers etc. - technically true. When UO etc. first launched - back when we did indeed buy search engines - there was an argument for doing so. GW1 demonstrated the changing economics; but if anyone is in any doubt: should we pay to use Google? Costs are relatively small these days; covered by the box price or whatever.
I agree with most of what you say here, except for the part about hosting. It does cost real money if you want to host anything commercial (although it isn't nearly as much as it used to be, you are right about that, but it is still a cost). And even something "Free" like using Google costs something, it just isn't money (I think it's something more valuable, but that part is debatable).
Absolutely; which is why I talked about costs being covered by e.g. assigning part of the box price to covering those costs; there are different ways it is done - as you obviously understand. The fact they can be covered by e.g. a box price with no sub says it all - especially if the mmo also has a box price.
I would never pay monthly for GW2 since it's a single player game 90% of the time. All the games that switched from P2P to F2P would obviously die off because they were too sub par for a subscription. Aka SWTOR/Wildstar/TESO/etc.
ArcheAge? Not a chance. The game felt archaic and cheesy at release. It would never survive subscription. EQ and EQ2 is too much of a mess. Planetside 2 might actually survive though.
Very few of us stick with MMOs as long as we'd like to, and I don't think that has anything to do with monetization.
This is a key point, I think. Some players have found homes in some MMOs. Most have not. I have missed this aspect of MMOs and realize I am in the minority. The ones I have tried lately I just do not make a connection with, be it the characters I create, the shallow world they adventure in, or the other players that seem to have their head on their own, singular path.
Even if find something interesting, I at max level within 2-4 weeks. For me, max level means roll up a new character, this one is done. The trouble I am finding is that my first character already did most everything in the game. This is how MMOs are built today and more importantly, what the players with money desire.
It costs money to host the servers etc. - technically true. When UO etc. first launched - back when we did indeed buy search engines - there was an argument for doing so. GW1 demonstrated the changing economics; but if anyone is in any doubt: should we pay to use Google? Costs are relatively small these days; covered by the box price or whatever.
I agree with most of what you say here, except for the part about hosting. It does cost real money if you want to host anything commercial (although it isn't nearly as much as it used to be, you are right about that, but it is still a cost). And even something "Free" like using Google costs something, it just isn't money (I think it's something more valuable, but that part is debatable).
Absolutely; which is why I talked about costs being covered by e.g. assigning part of the box price to covering those costs; there are different ways it is done - as you obviously understand. The fact they can be covered by e.g. a box price with no sub says it all - especially if the mmo also has a box price.
So, GW1 is an MMO now?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Honestly I won't pay a sub for any MMO anymore. I don't really understand subbing, I don't think it's a sensible way to spend money. If I buy a game I want to be able to at least play it without having to continuously pay for it.
That being said, I am willing to pay a monthly premium subscription on F2P games. At least in this case I don't feel like I've lost all the money I've dropped on said game if I ever cancel my subscription.
Played: DAoC, AC2, WoW, CoH, GW, GW2, WAR, AoC, Champions Online, Rift, Dragon Nest, Vindictus, Warframe, Neverwinter, Dungeon Fighter Online
Honestly I won't pay a sub for any MMO anymore. I don't really understand subbing, I don't think it's a sensible way to spend money. If I buy a game I want to be able to at least play it without having to continuously pay for it.
That being said, I am willing to pay a monthly premium subscription on F2P games. At least in this case I don't feel like I've lost all the money I've dropped on said game if I ever cancel my subscription.
Really? Just wondering how much you have to pay on a recurring sub to your service provider... and possibly the modem to them. Mine now costs me $175/mo for bare bones service(basic cable+basic movie channels and what they call internet 30, anything more and their throttling negates it anyway... ). So when a game I enjoy that lets me basically have a virtual life(24/7 except for the odd maintenance) wants me to pay $10-20/mo to keep their servers up and hopefully add new content a couple times a year, I call that a deal!
Honestly I won't pay a sub for any MMO anymore. I don't really understand subbing, I don't think it's a sensible way to spend money. If I buy a game I want to be able to at least play it without having to continuously pay for it.
That being said, I am willing to pay a monthly premium subscription on F2P games. At least in this case I don't feel like I've lost all the money I've dropped on said game if I ever cancel my subscription.
I apologize for my confusion here, but first you say you do not want to continuously pay for a game (subs) and then say you do sub (premium) to F2P games.
Also, if you're subbing to F2P games, how does unsubscribing negate any loss of funds already paid? I suppose it depends on the game and the way it charges, but I have subbed to a few F2P MMOs and when un-subbed, I basically lost that account.
Wizard101 is the huge culprit here. Subbing unlocks all zones. When you stop subscribing, you now have only 7 or 8 zones (out of 9) in the first area to explore. You need to go through ALL zones to advance to the next main area. On my first account with them, I subbed. I also bought in game cash to buy cash shop items. When I stopped subscribing, my characters are no longer accessible (in zones that are not free) and while the items I bought are still there, they do me no good.
Honestly I won't pay a sub for any MMO anymore. I don't really understand subbing, I don't think it's a sensible way to spend money. If I buy a game I want to be able to at least play it without having to continuously pay for it.
That being said, I am willing to pay a monthly premium subscription on F2P games. At least in this case I don't feel like I've lost all the money I've dropped on said game if I ever cancel my subscription.
Really? Just wondering how much you have to pay on a recurring sub to your service provider... and possibly the modem to them. Mine now costs me $175/mo for bare bones service(basic cable+basic movie channels and what they call internet 30, anything more and their throttling negates it anyway... ). So when a game I enjoy that lets me basically have a virtual life(24/7 except for the odd maintenance) wants me to pay $10-20/mo to keep their servers up and hopefully add new content a couple times a year, I call that a deal!
haha Internet and TV must be real ripoffs in the U.S. In any case you are comparing apples to oranges. Can I live without playing an mmo? Sure. Can I live without Internet? Nope.
But it if you want to know, j am paying £45 a month for a 150mpbs connection. Could easily pay £25 if I want a 50mpbs connection. Not that much to be honest.
now my financial times subscription is insane but good thing my company pays for it. But all these things are not comparable.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
It is comparable to a certain extent. What do most People do with the Internet in their homes? Entertainment/Socialization. What is a MMO? Entertainment/Socialization. (or can be). Not that far removed.
There can be great value in a MMO subscription as compared to other online Entertainment.
I generally don't feel there is a MMO that I would spend money on today. I'm not a big fan of cash shop and I'm also don't see a game where I would have enough fun to pay 15 dollars a month. I stick to games that have an upfront one time cost.
Answers
Anyway, I think what the main gist of it is,IMO, is that those who typically bounce from f2p to f2p are the same players that tend to gobble up expansions in p2p games in record time. They then abandon ship until the next expansion, never actually committing to "playing" the whole game, let alone becoming part of the virtual world in a mmorpg, but just consuming it with no regard for the game/community itself. You can often id these players by their names... xxxgunsforhirexxx, or some other such non-immersive label.
There are tons of MMOs as well as regular online games fighting for our attention. Games rise and fall before they are even released. Many MMOs, sub and F2P fail due to not enough people playing. Just like single player games, MMOs now have a transient population. And this is where "freeloaders" help the F2P games. They help flesh out the population on the servers. What good is having all the great gear if there isn't anyone to walk by and see it? They help lure in new potential players; players that WILL invest money into the game. Paying customers that will leave if their non-paying friends leave the game. So although whales help drive F2P revenue, the non-paying customers are vital to the longevity and financial success of games.
VG
I know if someone could redo UO before Tram, with a pvp toggle, and updated their UI(secure trades) and graphics to something more like LoTRO or AA, that that would be all that's needed for me to return and pay a yearly sub.
I don't mind a grind if the reward for it can't be usurped by someone buying their way past me, and I don't mind having to do groups to beat back a world boss, or even to be able to survive dungeons that spawn rare mats or beasts to tame(ie.dragons), let alone travel the open seas in search of the co-ordinates for those water-logged treasure maps(this coming from a mostly solo player), as long as they aren't totally beyound the realm of possibility for an innovative(stealth, traps, etc) or foolhardy(ie. Leroy Jenkins) player to attempt on their own.
The beauty of UO for many, was that all the tools were there for us to use, some did and some didn't, but you weren't penalized if all you wanted to do was fish all day and have some little shop in the middle of nowhere with a vendor, but if you wanted to get rich with some huge mansion in Luna with mega vendors supplying rare goods(your own or rented out to others) that was possible too.
It was all up to the individual on how to play their character/s, some were "heroes", some were mercenaries, some were thieves/beggars, some were bakers, some were gatherers/hunters/fishers/tamers, some became renown blacksmiths/tailors while others were satisfied just making basic goods like scrolls, potions, and reasonably priced armour/weapon/reagent kits(for those emergencies when you had just lost everything), etc.
Anyway, I feel that there is room for at least a few of our old faves to be reborn, hopefully a few will try.
If you play a game, you are being entertained, I hope. Paying for entertainment is what normal people do.
PS: That car analogy was way out in right field.
EDIT:
On further thought, paying for entertainment may be the abnormal way...
VG
VG
VG
Absolutely; which is why I talked about costs being covered by e.g. assigning part of the box price to covering those costs; there are different ways it is done - as you obviously understand. The fact they can be covered by e.g. a box price with no sub says it all - especially if the mmo also has a box price.
ArcheAge? Not a chance. The game felt archaic and cheesy at release. It would never survive subscription. EQ and EQ2 is too much of a mess. Planetside 2 might actually survive though.
Even if find something interesting, I at max level within 2-4 weeks. For me, max level means roll up a new character, this one is done. The trouble I am finding is that my first character already did most everything in the game. This is how MMOs are built today and more importantly, what the players with money desire.
VG
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That being said, I am willing to pay a monthly premium subscription on F2P games. At least in this case I don't feel like I've lost all the money I've dropped on said game if I ever cancel my subscription.
Played: DAoC, AC2, WoW, CoH, GW, GW2, WAR, AoC, Champions Online, Rift, Dragon Nest, Vindictus, Warframe, Neverwinter, Dungeon Fighter Online
Currently Playing: Dungeon Fighter Online Global
Waiting for: None
Also, if you're subbing to F2P games, how does unsubscribing negate any loss of funds already paid? I suppose it depends on the game and the way it charges, but I have subbed to a few F2P MMOs and when un-subbed, I basically lost that account.
Wizard101 is the huge culprit here. Subbing unlocks all zones. When you stop subscribing, you now have only 7 or 8 zones (out of 9) in the first area to explore. You need to go through ALL zones to advance to the next main area. On my first account with them, I subbed. I also bought in game cash to buy cash shop items. When I stopped subscribing, my characters are no longer accessible (in zones that are not free) and while the items I bought are still there, they do me no good.
VG
But it if you want to know, j am paying £45 a month for a 150mpbs connection. Could easily pay £25 if I want a 50mpbs connection. Not that much to be honest.
now my financial times subscription is insane but good thing my company pays for it. But all these things are not comparable.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
There can be great value in a MMO subscription as compared to other online Entertainment.