My biggest problem is that they are offering less than the original MMO's back in the early 90's, but they do everything they can to get you to believe they are offering more. There are even complaints by devs that its becoming more difficult to impress with cool graphics while they neglect game play. Give me a single game with good housing that has come out in the last ten years. I bet you can't. Or good crafting. Or something to do OTHER than follow a theme park path to the end, then raid or pvp.
The problem is it still all came down to a game of numbers, requiring gear or not doesn't really change that. I think that's what people are arguing when they say old games really didn't have difficulty, they had pre requisites to compete. Which most of those were based on time played, and/or level reached (you now have the proper CC ability to move forward, or you can now mitigate x amount of damage, etc...).
EQ and games like it mostly focused on level based mechanics, meaning everything is tuned to a players level as well as skill loadout at that level. Having the right skill as well as level for the job is what is important. Or the right number of players of that level. This all comes down to knowledge of the game. The longer you play the better at it you get, because you know what's required to accomplish this or that.
Games that rely on player skill are more about pattern memorization/mastery. They're about timing, twitch skill and ability to remember the pattern that boss just did, in order to avoid it on the next try.
That is not true though. That is not how EQ was. You could take two groups with the same gear, same levels, same spells, same AAs and they would not equally do content. Those things did not mean success, if they did, it wouldn't have taken guilds months to defeat the content. Heck, even early WoW was not like that. Skill mattered, how you approached the event, how your performed, etc...
Well that still goes in stride with what I said, "This all comes down to knowledge of the game. The longer you play the
better at it you get, because you know what's required to accomplish
this or that "..That's the nature of numerical things. That's all it takes to be good at an MMORPG, knowledge.
This isn't true for a twitch based game...where what people tend to refer to as player skill comes into play, you could know all it takes, yet still not defeat it because your hand eye coordination isn't up to par, or your reflexes are too slow.
Just out of curiosity what MMOs actually require twitch skills?
Behind the scenes all MMOs still use real time turn based combat and even old games like EQ required you to execute certain things both at specific times and in response to what spell the mob was casting or what it was doing. The people that reacted intelligently the quickest were usually the most successful in game. Often times things happened that you didn't expect like a respawn, someone pulling aggro, a train, or a wandering mob.
None of this was real twitch based combat like an FPS, but it required quick thinking and action.
The problem is it still all came down to a game of numbers, requiring gear or not doesn't really change that. I think that's what people are arguing when they say old games really didn't have difficulty, they had pre requisites to compete. Which most of those were based on time played, and/or level reached (you now have the proper CC ability to move forward, or you can now mitigate x amount of damage, etc...).
EQ and games like it mostly focused on level based mechanics, meaning everything is tuned to a players level as well as skill loadout at that level. Having the right skill as well as level for the job is what is important. Or the right number of players of that level. This all comes down to knowledge of the game. The longer you play the better at it you get, because you know what's required to accomplish this or that.
Games that rely on player skill are more about pattern memorization/mastery. They're about timing, twitch skill and ability to remember the pattern that boss just did, in order to avoid it on the next try.
That is not true though. That is not how EQ was. You could take two groups with the same gear, same levels, same spells, same AAs and they would not equally do content. Those things did not mean success, if they did, it wouldn't have taken guilds months to defeat the content. Heck, even early WoW was not like that. Skill mattered, how you approached the event, how your performed, etc...
Well that still goes in stride with what I said, "This all comes down to knowledge of the game. The longer you play the
better at it you get, because you know what's required to accomplish
this or that "..That's the nature of numerical things. That's all it takes to be good at an MMORPG, knowledge.
This isn't true for a twitch based game...where what people tend to refer to as player skill comes into play, you could know all it takes, yet still not defeat it because your hand eye coordination isn't up to par, or your reflexes are too slow.
Not really. In EQ for instance, there are many timing elements that require you to be exact when you do something. Also, knowing and doing are two different things. I can tell you all about a certain boss fight, the role of a tank, what skills they use, etc... and you will fail over and over until you learn proper timing and execution of your abilities. As a monk, I can explain to you how certain mob behavior works, how to split a given set of mobs and you will fail over and over until you get the habit of it. Some people never do.
For instance, some people could never get tanking down, some could never time their heals correctly, some could never do proper splits, etc... Learning to play your class was more than than knowing, it was doing and some people just had trouble getting the hang of a given class.
What MMOs have you played, because you don't sound like you have much experience with the older MMOs.
Just out of curiosity what MMOs actually require twitch skills?
Behind the scenes all MMOs still use real time turn based combat and even old games like EQ required you to execute certain things both at specific times and in response to what spell the mob was casting or what it was doing. The people that reacted intelligently the quickest were usually the most successful in game. Often times things happened that you didn't expect like a respawn, someone pulling aggro, a train, or a wandering mob.
None of this was real twitch based combat like an FPS, but it required quick thinking and action.
Exactly. Knowledge was only part of the requirement, then you had to intelligently apply it at the correct time and without error all the while dealing with unknowns as you mentioned (spawns, pathers, spell resists and interruptions, etc...).
I enjoy the occasional twitch game from time to time, but I played my share of arcade games in younger years, eventually just learning patterns to repeat gets a bit old and back then, you had to memorize the entire game to beat it as there were no saves. The twitch games of today are just prettier graphics, but still the same pattern regurgitation
I think the #1 factor for people quitting is whether or not a game is fun. Fun is a different thing for different people of course so it's a tough metric to gauge. For me, the framework of the game has to be good. I think whether or not you have a good core of friends to play with is important as well, otherwise you're just playing a single player game online.
The battle system is probably another major factor. Some people don't like slow GCD tab target, others don't like more active styles like TERA.
For some, graphics is a big deal. I played WoW and dealt with its graphical style because there were other things I liked about the game that made me overlook that. I tried Wildstar which is very similar graphically but didn't like how the game played. I doubt I could play a new MMORPG with a 10+ year old graphic system. There would have to be some other things about it I found VERY appealing.
The problem is it still all came down to a game of numbers, requiring gear or not doesn't really change that. I think that's what people are arguing when they say old games really didn't have difficulty, they had pre requisites to compete. Which most of those were based on time played, and/or level reached (you now have the proper CC ability to move forward, or you can now mitigate x amount of damage, etc...).
EQ and games like it mostly focused on level based mechanics, meaning everything is tuned to a players level as well as skill loadout at that level. Having the right skill as well as level for the job is what is important. Or the right number of players of that level. This all comes down to knowledge of the game. The longer you play the better at it you get, because you know what's required to accomplish this or that.
Games that rely on player skill are more about pattern memorization/mastery. They're about timing, twitch skill and ability to remember the pattern that boss just did, in order to avoid it on the next try.
That is not true though. That is not how EQ was. You could take two groups with the same gear, same levels, same spells, same AAs and they would not equally do content. Those things did not mean success, if they did, it wouldn't have taken guilds months to defeat the content. Heck, even early WoW was not like that. Skill mattered, how you approached the event, how your performed, etc...
Well that still goes in stride with what I said, "This all comes down to knowledge of the game. The longer you play the
better at it you get, because you know what's required to accomplish
this or that "..That's the nature of numerical things. That's all it takes to be good at an MMORPG, knowledge.
This isn't true for a twitch based game...where what people tend to refer to as player skill comes into play, you could know all it takes, yet still not defeat it because your hand eye coordination isn't up to par, or your reflexes are too slow.
Just out of curiosity what MMOs actually require twitch skills?
Behind the scenes all MMOs still use real time turn based combat and even old games like EQ required you to execute certain things both at specific times and in response to what spell the mob was casting or what it was doing. The people that reacted intelligently the quickest were usually the most successful in game. Often times things happened that you didn't expect like a respawn, someone pulling aggro, a train, or a wandering mob.
None of this was real twitch based combat like an FPS, but it required quick thinking and action.
None really, as that wasn't the point I was making. It's a simple matter of mechanics, MMO's haven't been complex in this regard, meaning skill is of less pertinence to the equation. Until MMO mechanics evolve this will always be the case. Knowing when to use a skill, knowing where to stand, knowing when and what to cast, etc... are all relatively easy things to learn for one applying themselves to it.
You guys keep going to the age old MMORPG fall back, "but in EQ"... Those that were good at EQ were good because they cared enough to be good (which basically means they read a a lot). Same for any MMO. It just had more numbers/variables that mattered in the grand scheme of things, compared to others in the genre. That's where it's difficulty lay, in learning those numbers/variables and what they represent. The same could be said for PRe-cu SWG, and it's a big reason it was changed. Getting good required "too much reading".
To many people getting good at a game means you've mastered a set of hand skills, you have fast reflex, and you can think wisely when under pressure. The only aspect of MMO's that has ever required any of this is PVP really. Most other aspects have almost always been based on pure knowledge of the system. Even bosses... "he shoots the fire after he does "X"". It's just not the same thing, which means it's really not a bragging right as far as being a hardcore gamer goes.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
None really, as that wasn't the point I was making. It's a simple matter of mechanics, MMO's haven't been complex in this regard, meaning skill is of less pertinence to the equation. Until MMO mechanics evolve this will always be the case. Knowing when to use a skill, knowing where to stand, knowing when and what to cast, etc... are all relatively easy things to learn for one applying themselves to it.
You guys keep going to the age old MMORPG fall back, "but in EQ"... Those that were good at EQ were good because they cared enough to be good (which basically means they read a a lot). Same for any MMO. It just had more numbers/variables that mattered in the grand scheme of things, compared to others in the genre. That's where it's difficulty lay, in learning those numbers/variables and what they represent. The same could be said for PRe-cu SWG, and it's a big reason it was changed. Getting good required "too much reading".
To many people getting good at a game means you've mastered a set of hand skills, you have fast reflex, and you can think wisely when under pressure. The only aspect of MMO's that has ever required any of this is PVP really. Most other aspects have almost always been based on pure knowledge of the system. Even bosses... "he shoots the fire after he does "X"". It's just not the same thing, which means it's really not a bragging right as far as being a hardcore gamer goes.
This is false though. You keep stating it over and over, but I know for a fact you are wrong. As I said, you can explain everything to someone, but it won't make them good at playing their class. I have seen this over and over in many of the MMOs I have played. Being knowledgeable about the game and being skilled in the execution of that knowledge are two different things.
I have already discussed several scenarios in the older games where such execution skill was required and knowledge would make no difference.
I think the #1 factor for people quitting is whether or not a game is fun. Fun is a different thing for different people of course so it's a tough metric to gauge. For me, the framework of the game has to be good. I think whether or not you have a good core of friends to play with is important as well, otherwise you're just playing a single player game online.
The battle system is probably another major factor. Some people don't like slow GCD tab target, others don't like more active styles like TERA.
For some, graphics is a big deal. I played WoW and dealt with its graphical style because there were other things I liked about the game that made me overlook that. I tried Wildstar which is very similar graphically but didn't like how the game played. I doubt I could play a new MMORPG with a 10+ year old graphic system. There would have to be some other things about it I found VERY appealing.
Define fun or good, etc...
No offense, but "fun" is a useless word as what is fun to you may not be fun to me. Any developer that goes on about "fun" is just selling a marketing gimmick. You can not design a game around "fun". You can however design a game around a very specific set of conditions and objectives for style of play and let people decide if that "style" of game is "fun" to them or not.
Fun or good is a subjective meaningless word to anyone but themselves.
I'm getting sick of this cliche, too. As I remember, it started with "spiritual successor to UO," which never happened, and has spread to everything trying to sell off the goodwill and reputation of a past good game.
I need a game I can immerse myself into the character and become that character and forget about who I really am.
Having 3rd person ruins immersion because its like you are a god controlling some character. Whereas 1st person you are the character .
Global chat , instant immersion ruin.
Artificial limits , i.e I cant climb over a stone on the ground . Or I hit an invisible wall in the middle of the ocean or worse .. losing health because I went too deep ( Maybe run out of energy swimming and drown is better )
.. Basically what I want Is an RPG game that is believable within the realms of the fantasy it depicts .
I need a game I can immerse myself into the character and become that character and forget about who I really am.
Having 3rd person ruins immersion because its like you are a god controlling some character. Whereas 1st person you are the character .
Global chat , instant immersion ruin.
Artificial limits , i.e I cant climb over a stone on the ground . Or I hit an invisible wall in the middle of the ocean or worse .. losing health because I went too deep ( Maybe run out of energy swimming and drown is better )
.. Basically what I want Is an RPG game that is believable within the realms of the fantasy it depicts .
I want Ultima Online + Everquest on steroids
Ugh, I so dislike 1st person. Becoming that character not only involves putting together their powerset. I create a look as well and part of the enjoyment of creating a look is to actually be able to see what you created. Also, another plus is you can see what's coming up around you.
no meaningful endgame world vs world reward system ala' Dark Age of Camelot Realm ranks
IMPORTANT: Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING. Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally. If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead. I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING. Thank you.
There's a few things that turn me off playing any MMO. Bad animations, toxic chat, lack of community, but probably the biggest is that lack of wow factor. You know, the little things in any game that actually make you stop and say "wow, that's cool".
Problem is that it has to be something special to get that reaction and most MMO's now just feel like same old, same old, been there, done that. I think that sense of "seen this all before" is the most disappointing thing I can say about any game I play, regardless of genre. Especially if it's been done better, which in the case of MMO's seems to happen far too frequently.
Oddly enough there were several "Wow" moments when I first started playing WoW. Vanilla was such a good game it almost makes me want to cry to see it now.
Oddly enough there were several "Wow" moments when I first started playing WoW. Vanilla was such a good game it almost makes me want to cry to see it now.
Likewise! I probably should've experienced more of the expansions though words of mouth put me off that right after Vanilla.
I got burned really bad when Vanguard, and then Age of Conan did not live up to expectations and where highly unfinished at launch. From that I have learned to lower my expectations, not every game can be as awesome as Everquest 2 was when I first played it. It takes a bit of the fun out of it though. Low expectations allows you to get positivly surprised, like I got with Rift and Wildstar, but it takes away all the energy of a good self hype.
Main factor for me still would be: unfinished engame. I can live with a few bugs being ironed out, initial lag fest etc. but if they didn't bother to keep me entertained in the long run then they will not keep me playing.
Another big factor: Give me a challenge. If your game is too easy, I will get bored fast.
Oddly enough there were several "Wow" moments when I first started playing WoW. Vanilla was such a good game it almost makes me want to cry to see it now.
Likewise! I probably should've experienced more of the expansions though words of mouth put me off that right after Vanilla.
I've had wow moments in WoW, too. The art and the world have some very beautiful sights.
Most recently, I've had those moments in ESO. For example, I've seen a hookah with wisps of smoke rising out of it and thought how beautiful it looked, or looked at the night sky at stars, whirling galaxies, and the moons. Or was that in Skyrim? Maybe both.
@d_20 You know, that's probably one of the reasons games these days lacks "essence". All that noise and whistling, no one ever bothers to slow down and absorb their surroundings. The modern age mentality is just too fast paced, in that, nothing is about the process but everything to do with result and end-game.
The beauty of life is in its impeccable design that juxtaposes functionality and form. The Golden Ratio.
Too easy, too solo, too limited, too much on rails - my first few hours with ffxiv, dissapointed that i wasted time downloading it but applies to any mmo like that.
Comments
Behind the scenes all MMOs still use real time turn based combat and even old games like EQ required you to execute certain things both at specific times and in response to what spell the mob was casting or what it was doing. The people that reacted intelligently the quickest were usually the most successful in game. Often times things happened that you didn't expect like a respawn, someone pulling aggro, a train, or a wandering mob.
None of this was real twitch based combat like an FPS, but it required quick thinking and action.
For instance, some people could never get tanking down, some could never time their heals correctly, some could never do proper splits, etc... Learning to play your class was more than than knowing, it was doing and some people just had trouble getting the hang of a given class.
What MMOs have you played, because you don't sound like you have much experience with the older MMOs.
Exactly. Knowledge was only part of the requirement, then you had to intelligently apply it at the correct time and without error all the while dealing with unknowns as you mentioned (spawns, pathers, spell resists and interruptions, etc...).
I enjoy the occasional twitch game from time to time, but I played my share of arcade games in younger years, eventually just learning patterns to repeat gets a bit old and back then, you had to memorize the entire game to beat it as there were no saves. The twitch games of today are just prettier graphics, but still the same pattern regurgitation
The battle system is probably another major factor. Some people don't like slow GCD tab target, others don't like more active styles like TERA.
For some, graphics is a big deal. I played WoW and dealt with its graphical style because there were other things I liked about the game that made me overlook that. I tried Wildstar which is very similar graphically but didn't like how the game played. I doubt I could play a new MMORPG with a 10+ year old graphic system. There would have to be some other things about it I found VERY appealing.
What are the main factors that cause disappointment with an MMO?
easy mode and carebears..You guys keep going to the age old MMORPG fall back, "but in EQ"... Those that were good at EQ were good because they cared enough to be good (which basically means they read a a lot). Same for any MMO. It just had more numbers/variables that mattered in the grand scheme of things, compared to others in the genre. That's where it's difficulty lay, in learning those numbers/variables and what they represent. The same could be said for PRe-cu SWG, and it's a big reason it was changed. Getting good required "too much reading".
To many people getting good at a game means you've mastered a set of hand skills, you have fast reflex, and you can think wisely when under pressure. The only aspect of MMO's that has ever required any of this is PVP really. Most other aspects have almost always been based on pure knowledge of the system. Even bosses... "he shoots the fire after he does "X"". It's just not the same thing, which means it's really not a bragging right as far as being a hardcore gamer goes.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I have already discussed several scenarios in the older games where such execution skill was required and knowledge would make no difference.
No offense, but "fun" is a useless word as what is fun to you may not be fun to me. Any developer that goes on about "fun" is just selling a marketing gimmick. You can not design a game around "fun". You can however design a game around a very specific set of conditions and objectives for style of play and let people decide if that "style" of game is "fun" to them or not.
Fun or good is a subjective meaningless word to anyone but themselves.
Who are you talking to? What is your specific point? Make your argument so it can be assessed.
Having 3rd person ruins immersion because its like you are a god controlling some character.
Whereas 1st person you are the character .
Global chat , instant immersion ruin.
Artificial limits , i.e I cant climb over a stone on the ground . Or I hit an invisible wall in the middle of the ocean or worse .. losing health because I went too deep ( Maybe run out of energy swimming and drown is better )
.. Basically what I want Is an RPG game that is believable within the realms of the fantasy it depicts .
I want Ultima Online + Everquest on steroids
Problem is that it has to be something special to get that reaction and most MMO's now just feel like same old, same old, been there, done that. I think that sense of "seen this all before" is the most disappointing thing I can say about any game I play, regardless of genre. Especially if it's been done better, which in the case of MMO's seems to happen far too frequently.
World of Warcraft®
From that I have learned to lower my expectations, not every game can be as awesome as Everquest 2 was when I first played it.
It takes a bit of the fun out of it though. Low expectations allows you to get positivly surprised, like I got with Rift and Wildstar, but it takes away all the energy of a good self hype.
Main factor for me still would be: unfinished engame. I can live with a few bugs being ironed out, initial lag fest etc. but if they didn't bother to keep me entertained in the long run then they will not keep me playing.
Another big factor: Give me a challenge. If your game is too easy, I will get bored fast.
Most recently, I've had those moments in ESO. For example, I've seen a hookah with wisps of smoke rising out of it and thought how beautiful it looked, or looked at the night sky at stars, whirling galaxies, and the moons. Or was that in Skyrim? Maybe both.
The beauty of life is in its impeccable design that juxtaposes functionality and form.
The Golden Ratio.
Aw, we think using the number sign--with, you know, an actual number--is a hashtag? That's adorable, website guys.