Make MMO's Great Again !!

comitron · October 2015

For me, the number one problem of this "new breed (old now)" of MMO is that there is literally no penalty for bad play. You go into a dungeon... no one communicates... everyone goes bat sh!t crazy trying to run every which way, and all anyone is concerned about is DPSing the next mob down. If you die, you better just release because your healer is to busy DPSing to rezz you, and to be honest... its probably faster/easier for you to release and make it back to the fight anyway; especially since there is little to no deterrent to do so. I personally died no less than 10 times last night.. (some due to my own dumb-headedness, i'll admit, but the games today promote this so i feel i am justified :pleased: )

You want a better game play experience? then design the game in a way which makes people accountable. There are several ideas out there I'm sure ... experience loss; gear condition/breakage that matters; mandatory time out box like in hockey etc. If players start respecting the game it becomes a controlled environment that promotes socialization and friendship, not the zergfest that is every dungeon raid now, in every MMO.

Don't you think its funny, that the only people talking fondly of games these days are us "old-schoolers", yet were always talking about games such as EQ/Ultima/Asherons Call/DAOC. No one ever talks about "how I wish there was another game out there just like WoW". Maybe were on to something, and these developers need to step back and see the forest trough the trees. These games can be great again and be fun.

Have you joined a guild lately, and asked yourself why? After all, no one really does anything guild related any more. This is because no one needs help to accomplish anything. All content is either solo-able or zerg-able with a pickup group. Anyone remember the Planes in EQ? Yes it was a pain to back flag people for progression, but it created a cohesion and a sense of family that doesn't exist today, and guilds were proud of their achievements.

Control the "Zerg" element, bring back a need to build relationships and guilding, and the rest will fall in place.

jc234 · October 2015

This is a reoccurring theme that needs to be addressed by the industry.. maybe it's not a big enough issue to cause a break in business but it's definitely a direction that lacks forward thinking.

I find that the common issue I deal with on online games now is the communication. No one seems to like using the VOIP even if it's built in with a sufficient degree of clarity, let alone type out a coherent sentence. This happens not just in MMORPGs but across all genres of online gaming. You'd think people are inclined to chat and discuss the damn thing we're all looking at and playing, yet, this is so far from the truth.

First order of business? No time to talk, just rush at that pack of mobs and proceed with mindless button mash. Rinse and repeat.

jc234 · October 2015

I can't stress that enough actually @DMKano ;

I recommend watching a documentary: The Man in the Machine. It's about Steve Jobs and how he saw his Apple, a brand and a product, envisioned it into an extension of one's arms and mind like an automobile did.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4425064/

Extremely polarising ideas and concepts within that doco...

Distopia · October 2015

DMKano said:

jc234 said:

This is a reoccurring theme that needs to be addressed by the industry.. maybe it's not a big enough issue to cause a break in business but it's definitely a direction that lacks forward thinking.

I find that the common issue I deal with on online games now is the communication. No one seems to like using the VOIP even if it's built in with a sufficient degree of clarity, let alone type out a coherent sentence. This happens not just in MMORPGs but across all genres of online gaming. You'd think people are inclined to chat and discuss the damn thing we're all looking at and playing, yet, this is so far from the truth.

First order of business? No time to talk, just rush at that pack of mobs and proceed with mindless button mash. Rinse and repeat.

Have you gone to any school and watched how kids interact today? They sit down with their phones and text each other, even when they are 3 feet away.

The times are changing -

Sadly it's not just kids at this point. Half the people I know have their heads buried in their phones 24/7 I had dinner guests recently that spent the entire 2 hours they were here buried in their phones, they were in their late 30's. It's every where you go.. Proud to say I still have an old flip phone.

Dragnelus · October 2015

DMKano said:

jc234 said:

This is a reoccurring theme that needs to be addressed by the industry.. maybe it's not a big enough issue to cause a break in business but it's definitely a direction that lacks forward thinking.

I find that the common issue I deal with on online games now is the communication. No one seems to like using the VOIP even if it's built in with a sufficient degree of clarity, let alone type out a coherent sentence. This happens not just in MMORPGs but across all genres of online gaming. You'd think people are inclined to chat and discuss the damn thing we're all looking at and playing, yet, this is so far from the truth.

First order of business? No time to talk, just rush at that pack of mobs and proceed with mindless button mash. Rinse and repeat.

Have you gone to any school and watched how kids interact today? They sit down with their phones and text each other, even when they are 3 feet away.

The times are changing -DMKano said:

jc234 said:

This is a reoccurring theme that needs to be addressed by the industry.. maybe it's not a big enough issue to cause a break in business but it's definitely a direction that lacks forward thinking.

I find that the common issue I deal with on online games now is the communication. No one seems to like using the VOIP even if it's built in with a sufficient degree of clarity, let alone type out a coherent sentence. This happens not just in MMORPGs but across all genres of online gaming. You'd think people are inclined to chat and discuss the damn thing we're all looking at and playing, yet, this is so far from the truth.

First order of business? No time to talk, just rush at that pack of mobs and proceed with mindless button mash. Rinse and repeat.

Have you gone to any school and watched how kids interact today? They sit down with their phones and text each other, even when they are 3 feet away.

The times are changing -

Maybe in America..

Nitth · October 2015

comitron said:

For me, the number one problem of this "new breed (old now)" of MMO is that there is literally no penalty for bad play. You go into a dungeon... no one communicates... everyone goes bat sh!t crazy trying to run every which way, and all anyone is concerned about is DPSing the next mob down. If you die, you better just release because your healer is to busy DPSing to rezz you, and to be honest... its probably faster/easier for you to release and make it back to the fight anyway; especially since there is little to no deterrent to do so. I personally died no less than 10 times last night.. (some due to my own dumb-headedness, i'll admit, but the games today promote this so i feel i am justified :pleased: )

You want a better game play experience? then design the game in a way which makes people accountable. There are several ideas out there I'm sure ... experience loss; gear condition/breakage that matters; mandatory time out box like in hockey etc. If players start respecting the game it becomes a controlled environment that promotes socialization and friendship, not the zergfest that is every dungeon raid now, in every MMO.

Don't you think its funny, that the only people talking fondly of games these days are us "old-schoolers", yet were always talking about games such as EQ/Ultima/Asherons Call/DAOC. No one ever talks about "how I wish there was another game out there just like WoW". Maybe were on to something, and these developers need to step back and see the forest trough the trees. These games can be great again and be fun.

Have you joined a guild lately, and asked yourself why? After all, no one really does anything guild related any more. This is because no one needs help to accomplish anything. All content is either solo-able or zerg-able with a pickup group. Anyone remember the Planes in EQ? Yes it was a pain to back flag people for progression, but it created a cohesion and a sense of family that doesn't exist today, and guilds were proud of their achievements.

Control the "Zerg" element, bring back a need to build relationships and guilding, and the rest will fall in place.

Nine times out of ten its a people problem.

Most mmos even if they have really crappy systems can accommodate great social experiences if the community is..."willing"

acidblood · October 2015

comitron said:

For me, the number one problem of this "new breed (old now)" of MMO is that there is literally no penalty for bad play. You go into a dungeon... no one communicates... everyone goes bat sh!t crazy trying to run every which way, and all anyone is concerned about is DPSing the next mob down. ...

This is why I like playing a healer... if the DPS is misbehaving I tell them they won't get healed. It works ~90% of the time; death, and wait times, are good teachers

But, yes, you are right. The game(s) should do more to teach people how to play properly, and part of that is a noticeable, but temporary, 'punishment' when you play badly. My favorite is still CoH's 50% exp debt, slow the bad players down so they have more time to learn

comitron · October 2015

DMKano said:

jc234 said:

This is a reoccurring theme that needs to be addressed by the industry.. maybe it's not a big enough issue to cause a break in business but it's definitely a direction that lacks forward thinking.

I find that the common issue I deal with on online games now is the communication. No one seems to like using the VOIP even if it's built in with a sufficient degree of clarity, let alone type out a coherent sentence. This happens not just in MMORPGs but across all genres of online gaming. You'd think people are inclined to chat and discuss the damn thing we're all looking at and playing, yet, this is so far from the truth.

First order of business? No time to talk, just rush at that pack of mobs and proceed with mindless button mash. Rinse and repeat.

Have you gone to any school and watched how kids interact today? They sit down with their phones and text each other, even when they are 3 feet away.

The times are changing -

Funny/sad thing is your right... but chatting in game is nothing more than texting. People should be used to chatting like you said. Problem though is that the genre itself has turned into a single player game, in which there are multiple other players online. That is not how the genre started out, or what most people are looking for, whether they realize it or not. If you had ever played some of the 1st gen MMORPG games you would understand what I mean by this. The Genre used to be a game where you would rely on other people and build social clubs (guilds) that had similar interests or irl geography. Guilds were not 500+ people, where no one talked in guild. (omg.. if there were 500+ people in a guild on a first gen game the chat spam would be intolerable ! lol) People didn't rush to the end game content in the first week, because you just plain couldn't.

By pandering to this sense of "i want everything right now and i don't want to work for it" mentality, the developers have created their own monster. As soon as people finish the end content in the first week they get bored and start complaining for more end content. When more end content is not offered up, players leave, taking their money with them, looking for the next "Fix". These games take longer than a couple months to make and this breeds dissent/animosity and anxiety in the gaming population. To combat this developers rush weak content out the door, people get mad and leave.

Players don't have time to develop a relationship with the game itself, let alone get attached to their character or develop any friends in the game. People are looking for that social interaction that is going to hold their attention, and fill that void. To support my original thought then... if games were developed more to promote social interaction instead of designed as a single player game, people would play better, stay longer, spend more money, make friends, and solve all the worlds problems :awesome:

edit: and BTW.. I'm not talking about making things take longer like grinding faction and crap.. NO ONE likes that, and that's not remotely what I'm talking about.

jc234 · October 2015

comitron said:

DMKano said:

jc234 said:

This is a reoccurring theme that needs to be addressed by the industry.. maybe it's not a big enough issue to cause a break in business but it's definitely a direction that lacks forward thinking.

I find that the common issue I deal with on online games now is the communication. No one seems to like using the VOIP even if it's built in with a sufficient degree of clarity, let alone type out a coherent sentence. This happens not just in MMORPGs but across all genres of online gaming. You'd think people are inclined to chat and discuss the damn thing we're all looking at and playing, yet, this is so far from the truth.

First order of business? No time to talk, just rush at that pack of mobs and proceed with mindless button mash. Rinse and repeat.

Have you gone to any school and watched how kids interact today? They sit down with their phones and text each other, even when they are 3 feet away.

The times are changing -

Funny/sad thing is your right... but chatting in game is nothing more than texting. People should be used to chatting like you said. Problem though is that the genre itself has turned into a single player game, in which there are multiple other players online. That is not how the genre started out, or what most people are looking for, whether they realize it or not. If you had ever played some of the 1st gen MMORPG games you would understand what I mean by this. The Genre used to be a game where you would rely on other people and build social clubs (guilds) that had similar interests or irl geography. Guilds were not 500+ people, where no one talked in guild. (omg.. if there were 500+ people in a guild on a first gen game the chat spam would be intolerable ! lol) People didn't rush to the end game content in the first week, because you just plain couldn't.

By pandering to this sense of "i want everything right now and i don't want to work for it" mentality, the developers have created their own monster. As soon as people finish the end content in the first week they get bored and start complaining for more end content. When more end content is not offered up, players leave, taking their money with them, looking for the next "Fix". These games take longer than a couple months to make and this breeds dissent/animosity and anxiety in the gaming population. To combat this developers rush weak content out the door, people get mad and leave.

Players don't have time to develop a relationship with the game itself, let alone get attached to their character or develop any friends in the game. People are looking for that social interaction that is going to hold their attention, and fill that void. To support my original thought then... if games were developed more to promote social interaction instead of designed as a single player game, people would play better, stay longer, spend more money, make friends, and solve all the worlds problems :awesome:

edit: and BTW.. I'm not talking about making things take longer like grinding faction and crap.. NO ONE likes that, and that's not remotely what I'm talking about.

I'm not sure what your first paragraph is saying.. but I'll respond to what I can see as lack of insight.. The fact that machines have taken over as the main medium for conversation is the reason why social skills seems to be lacking among modern online games, they are directly related. However, I do understand your reasoning with having connections with your peers and being able to grow in contrast of each other. But this is an emphasise on group play, unfortunately, you can't coerce others who are big on solitude.

I don't want to beat the dead horse again but to identify the core factor of this endless automated churning, you need to look at what brought this "genre" into the mainstream spotlight - World of Warcraft. When you have such a massive population of "gamers", who are accustomed to mini-games, phone games, table top games and card games, being exposed to MMORPG, there's a immediate need for any virtual game-producing company to highlight that and cater to them all for profits. And If IT IS the status-quo, why would you challenge your own product? That's why WoW immediately saw the need to dumb down content as their population exploded into the millions. It was to provide for the rest of the community who were unfamiliar to traditional MMORPGs but can be said to have experiences with console (PS2/XBOX), phone and card games, and most if not all those games were solo-focused. This was seen gradually with all the expansions and major patches, it slowly shifted away from group raids and content into dailies and instant gratification.

To combat this slow gradual mass grave for the "MMO genre", yes, promoting social interaction would help. Most importantly though, the focus direction has been stuck due to all the scoped-in vision. The industry needs to steer away from routine-based content but into what I'm not so sure. I can say with confidence thought, that this clueless mess is being felt in the industry as the focus has shifted yet again away from MMORPG and into MMOGs (Mobas, shooters, lobbies, instances and survival). You'd think all these games would inherently self-promote social attributes but it's the opposite. Instead of encouraging support and mutual respect, the competition-based games manifested toxicity and abuse. So, now we're left with a overall population that are confused, full of nostalgia while brewing negativity. In other words, YES, this would solve all the worlds problems as I see our current global consciousness running parallel with this smaller sample of virtual reality.

zaberfangx · October 2015

Not been much MMO that make you want to join this then make you join, Not much exciting about guild when most mmo bigger is better then smaller means left in the dust due to system in the game or the bigger guild jumping all over the small guilds.

Then we got games makes it harder to communicate in game with the in game chat when got to type and move at the same time like all the time, then we got games that get complex with there buttons leave no room to get in to a chat and talk about whats ahead.

comitron · October 2015

zaberfangx said:

Then we got games makes it harder to communicate in game with the in game chat when got to type and move at the same time like all the time, then we got games that get complex with there buttons leave no room to get in to a chat and talk about whats ahead.

This is a good point as well. Its hard to coordinate a bunch of people to do anything anyway, let alone instructing complex orders via chat while trying to fight a mob. This is why Ventrillo, Mumble Teamspeak etc was invented. But again, its not just about chatting, its about the general game play where no one benefits from grouping/guilding anymore. This is also not to say, that there are no encounters that you have to group up to conquer.. but the general "wham-bam thank you mam" zerg attitude, where you are encouraged via game mechanics to log on every night and do 10 dailiys as fast as you can, and get off.

@ jc234 I understand what your saying.. WoW took a cross section of the population and created a game for the phone/tablet generation.. except your exactly wrong. Phone games and tablet games are what grew out of WoW nation, not the other way around. WoW created this problem. Apple iphone didn't come out till 2007 and Android in 2008, and they sure didn't have games on those platforms until later in 2009. WoW was pushed out in 2004, almost 5 years earlier. Before that time there was several games that ruled that space... EQ/Ultima Online/Asherons Call/Shadowbane/DAOC (to name a few). What WoW did do was create a simpler version with stylistic cartoony graphics that Mom and Dads could introduce little Johnny to gaming with. THAT was the brilliant maneuver that was WoW. Problem here is that the whole industry had a knee jerk reaction and freaked out. So many kids started playing WoW that the industry as a whole changed their model to try to keep up/compete with WoW. And to be fair... WoW didn't start out like is is today either. They themselves are a product of their own mess. As the different development studios fought for market share they all tried to outdo the other game by making it more and more accessible, until you have what you have right now. (Personally i don't know why no one has thought of just letting you role a max level character right at character creation, and screw all this meaningless grinding anyway. If your gonna do it then just do it and stop teasing already... or let this be a ruleset for a specific server.)

Now if i could make a quick analogy to board games... do we not have "Candy Land", "Sorry", "chutes and ladders" but also have "Axis and Allies", "Stratego", "Risk" ? There is no reason that the industry can not support both children games "WoW", "Wizard 101", etc... as well as complex, more in depth games for people that are looking for that. I think that is the main thread here... there has always been a faction of gamers looking for an "Axis and Allies" MMO (read complex deep game play, not the actual Axis and Allies MMO) this can coexist with other less complex games in the market. I fear though that because of the "WoW factor" we may never be able to realize this.

I for one would love to see an MMORPG get back to the roots of what made them great in the first place. Wrap that up with "Black Desert" like graphics. Add in deep character development and customization. Set in a huge over arcing story that doesn't lead you by the hand down a pre-defined rail of quests, but allows you to investigate and solve puzzles along the way as the story opens up and you discover "what's next". I can see this working like a time lock server strategy, where the next chapter of the story is patched in when a certain win condition is met on the server. The server would physically change the environment/quests and you would continue your adventure, while another server is opened and patched with the previous chapter. If you had not finished your chapter you could easily go to the other server and finish, allowing you to flow back and forth to play with your friends on both servers. Eventually having every expansion/(chapter) unlocked, all previous chapters would be able to be replayed whenever you want, just like a good book that you want to go back and relive that part of the story. And for replay-ability and the quick pickup game, have each chapter culminate in some epic "dungeon" that adds to your unlocked dungeons that you can queue for in normal, hard and raid mode via lobby that you could mentor down to.

Theocritus · October 2015

I dont think I'll find a really good MMO again until these companies get away from the questathon approach..... Just give us a world to explore like UO and EQ did, and let us make our own story.....SO many of the post WOW MMOs just feel like we are going through the motions and not even really playing much.

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